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I posted this earlier, but I will post this again. I agree our D Line is stout and has depth. So why does every mock draft, or 3/4 have us taking Datone Jones or saying we need Defensive Line help in the first round. I think they look at the last year for teams, where they were weak, and plug in a player. I wonder about the due diligence when making mock drafts for each team. I don't see us needing any DLine help until maybe 4th round if BPA. Until then, OL, ILB, and WR is what we need to look at in first round and take the BPA in that group. What do you all say?

you had a good argument going until you named two positions where we are loaded at, and before you use the usual "we need to find Waynes replacement soon" I agree with that, we will need to soon. But we will need to find Reddings replacement soon, Im not sold on RJF quite yet although I did see flashes, we dont know when Chapman will ever be able to go, hope is nice but hope dont solidify positions, Franklin will likely be around only for 1 year

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Everyone says our D-line is going to be tough, it may be, but last year it was pretty poor, and we haven't had any major signings to it. Sure we are getting Chapman back, but he hasn't done anything in the NFL yet, so lets wait and see how they play before crowning them the next great defense. 

Redding was already a stud. In addition to that, we got back Chapman and McKinney. We also signed Ricky Jean-Francois, Aubrayo Franklin. That allows all of our other players to fill in depth. That's a solid line. I especially like the potential of Francois. 

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Redding was already a stud. In addition to that, we got back Chapman and McKinney. We also signed Ricky Jean-Francois, Aubrayo Franklin. That allows all of our other players to fill in depth. That's a solid line. I especially like the potential of Francois. 

I forgot about Ricky Jean, lets hope I'm wrong about this, but I don't expect us to be some stout run defense without a dominant player.  We might be average though. 

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Nice to see that it's not just me wondering why everyone is mocking Datone Jones to us.  To me, there is no need on the team that comes close to our needs on the OL...

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Nice to see that it's not just me wondering why everyone is mocking Datone Jones to us. To me, there is no need on the team that comes close to our needs on the OL...

Same thing I kept saying. Grigson is a ex offensive lineman. He's gonna build that oline to protect our franchise QB at all cost

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I'm not sure our scheme is built for interior pass rushers of sorts. I believe the concept is for stout run stuffers through the middle and lane openers for the linebacking core in the passing game. A sack here and there is a plus of course, but I do not think anyone along the line will be expected to get consistent pressure. Similiar to how both the 49'ers and the Ravens are set up, and in contrast to how JJ Watt contributes for Houston.

 

That is one of the reasons that, despite really liking Maguns Hunt, I don't think he is a fit for us.

When we are in a 3-4 base, what you say is true.  However, this is a shape shifting defense, and for peak impact it must also be able to get pressure from a front 4 against certain teams.  It is a nickel look we spent a lot of time in last year.  Additionally our base hybrid 4 man front also needs to be able to generate pressure on an as needed basis primarily from the weakside.  Look at the sack #'s for the Ravens and 49'ers interior players.  Ngata has had 5+ sacks the last 3 years, McPhee had 6 sacks in 2011 and Redding had 4.5 in rotation.  Arthur Jones had 4.5 sacks last year.  In San Fran, Justin Smith is 7+ sacks routinely and their pass rush really fell off when he got injured.  Yes, they are run stuffers, but much of their blitz pressure relies on the interior pass rushers being credible threats.  Haven't had any of that around here, but it is the final piece of the puzzle to make the hybrid really go.

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Josh Chapman is actually a lot heavier now.

 

If you're referring to the Grigson interview where he said he was up around 350, something is amiss somewhere. I posted this in another thread a few days ago:

 

Colts Mailbag

 

"MICHAEL F. (from Porter Ranch, CA) I was interested, and frankly stunned, to hear GM Ryan Grigson tell some of our season ticket holders recently that NT Josh Chapmanicon-article-link.gif weighs 350-360!  Please tell me that Grigson misspoke, or that Josh doesn’t plan to play at that weight this season?  Is it possible he’s put on 35-45 pounds since he was drafted?  Please tell me no.  Thanks for these weekly mailbag articles, they’re very helpful!

 

A:  I did not hear the interview, but I assure you Josh is at the same weight range as he was when he joined us.  I spoke with him, and he told me so.  I wouldn’t put any fear into the matter.  All is going well with Josh, and we should see him starting work this year.  I can understand your concern.  We feel he has a bright future.  I told him we had a very concerned mailbag reader, and he liked it.  Keep following us."

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When we are in a 3-4 base, what you say is true.  However, this is a shape shifting defense, and for peak impact it must also be able to get pressure from a front 4 against certain teams.  It is a nickel look we spent a lot of time in last year.  Additionally our base hybrid 4 man front also needs to be able to generate pressure on an as needed basis primarily from the weakside.  Look at the sack #'s for the Ravens and 49'ers interior players.  Ngata has had 5+ sacks the last 3 years, McPhee had 6 sacks in 2011 and Redding had 4.5 in rotation.  Arthur Jones had 4.5 sacks last year.  In San Fran, Justin Smith is 7+ sacks routinely and their pass rush really fell off when he got injured.  Yes, they are run stuffers, but much of their blitz pressure relies on the interior pass rushers being credible threats.  Haven't had any of that around here, but it is the final piece of the puzzle to make the hybrid really go.

 

But how much of the 4-man front was a result of not having the personnel available to properly execute the 3-4 base? Freeney clearly wasn't comfortable standing up and therefore rarely did. I don't see us having as many 4-man fronts because it seems like a waste of the personnel we have acquired, hard to know however until they take the field and we see them in action. All this talk about Walden setting the edge at the  weakside leads me to believe that we will see more exotic blitz packages with pressure coming from all areas... ILBs, corners, safeties etc.

 

Ngata and Smith are just exceptional players and the best in their position in the league, but they still don't put up big sack numbers, more allow for the OLBs to take the credit by opening the lanes. Of course I'd love to see our front three get to the QB but I would be more than happy with them breaking up the o-line and let the guys behind them do the damage. And if they effectively stop the run, the pass defense will improve as a result, as with all the top defenses.

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I'm not sure our scheme is built for interior pass rushers of sorts. I believe the concept is for stout run stuffers through the middle and lane openers for the linebacking core in the passing game. A sack here and there is a plus of course, but I do not think anyone along the line will be expected to get consistent pressure. Similiar to how both the 49'ers and the Ravens are set up, and in contrast to how JJ Watt contributes for Houston.

 

That is one of the reasons that, despite really liking Maguns Hunt, I don't think he is a fit for us.

 

 

 

Your absolutely right. I keep hearing people say they want a J.J. Watt type for our defense, but Houston plays a 1 gap 3-4 as opposed to our 2 gap scheme. Our DE's aren't supposed to be pass rushers although if they get a sack every now and then, it's just a bonus. 

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Your absolutely right. I keep hearing people say they want a J.J. Watt type for our defense, but Houston plays a 1 gap 3-4 as opposed to our 2 gap scheme. Our DE's aren't supposed to be pass rushers although if they get a sack every now and then, it's just a bonus. 

 

I think it's notable that RJF has become our smallest DL by 15 lbs or so.  He himself is 14 or 15 lbs heavier than Datone.  If we were to draft Datone Jones, it would be a real paradigm shift on the DL!

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Your absolutely right. I keep hearing people say they want a J.J. Watt type for our defense, but Houston plays a 1 gap 3-4 as opposed to our 2 gap scheme. Our DE's aren't supposed to be pass rushers although if they get a sack every now and then, it's just a bonus. 

Actually I dont think thats entirely accurate, I think our defensive ends have to be versatile, playing inside and out, able to put pressure on the QB in certain situations as well as hold up against the run, Is our DE's first objective to get to the QB? Of course not but they have to versatile enough to do it just like they did in Baltimore, Just my opinion, All of our DE's and DT's can push pressure on the QB while also being able to contain the run, RJF Im 100 percent sure was brought in to put pressure on the QB do to his speed, i dont think he is overly good at run contain or collapsing the pocket but he does have exceptional speed when used for his size (although his first step is consistently slow from what I saw). I can see us picking Jones but a higher probability would be Jesse Williams in my opinion 

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If you're referring to the Grigson interview where he said he was up around 350, something is amiss somewhere. I posted this in another thread a few days ago:

 

Colts Mailbag

 

"MICHAEL F. (from Porter Ranch, CA) I was interested, and frankly stunned, to hear GM Ryan Grigson tell some of our season ticket holders recently that NT Josh Chapmanicon-article-link.gif weighs 350-360!  Please tell me that Grigson misspoke, or that Josh doesn’t plan to play at that weight this season?  Is it possible he’s put on 35-45 pounds since he was drafted?  Please tell me no.  Thanks for these weekly mailbag articles, they’re very helpful!

 

A:  I did not hear the interview, but I assure you Josh is at the same weight range as he was when he joined us.  I spoke with him, and he told me so.  I wouldn’t put any fear into the matter.  All is going well with Josh, and we should see him starting work this year.  I can understand your concern.  We feel he has a bright future.  I told him we had a very concerned mailbag reader, and he liked it.  Keep following us."

Thanks for posting that, I've seen that incorrectly repeated on this forum. Brad Wells also wrote a story using old quotes to imply that Ben wasn't working hard to come back, not that I consider him a reliable source.

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I think it's notable that RJF has become our smallest DL by 15 lbs or so.  He himself is 14 or 15 lbs heavier than Datone.  If we were to draft Datone Jones, it would be a real paradigm shift on the DL!

 

This is exactly why I don't see D. Jones being drafted by us. I think were going to see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 this yr. now that we have the proper personnel to do so. Last yr., the coaching staff had to go with what they had to work with and the injury situation just made it worse. This yr. we'll see what the defense is really supposed to look like.

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Actually I dont think thats entirely true, I think our defensive ends have to be versatile, playing inside and out, able to put pressure on the QB in certain situations as well as hold up against the run, Is our DE's first objective to get to the QB? Of course not but they have to versatile enough to do it just like they did in Baltimore, Just my opinion, All of our DE's and DT's can push pressure on the QB while also being able to contain the run

 

 

In a 2 gap scheme, the DE's aren't supposed to be pass rushers, that's why all of our DE's are so big, they are supposed to contain their gaps and let the LBer's make the plays. Last year was an aberration IMO. This yr. since we have much better personnel and players that actually fit the scheme, we'll see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 IMO. 

 

Just to expand...

 

 

Explaining the Techinque

As far as having a better way to explain it to the player, I think the way you stated it is pretty good. However, it is important to note that with the one-gap technique the main objective is to get into the backfield and make a tackle or generally cause havoc. But with the two-gap technique, your main objective is to "clog" the line of scrimmage (draw double teams, prevent holes from opening, etc...) so that the linebackers can run free to the ball carrier and make the tackle. For this reason, linemen who play the two-gap technique are less likely to accrue lots of statistics for tackles, fumbles, etc... This is the main reason that many high-profile defensive linemen in the NFL do not like to play in 3-4 defensive schemes.

 

 

 

http://sports.stackexchange.com/questions/56/difference-between-one-gap-and-two-gap-techniques-for-defensive-linemen

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In a 2 gap scheme, the DE's aren't supposed to be pass rushers, that's why all of our DE's are so big, they are supposed to contain their gaps and let the LBer's make the plays. Last year was an aberration IMO. This yr. since we have much better personnel and players that actually fit the scheme, we'll see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 IMO. 

I know what they are supposed to do in a 2 gap scheme which is why I dont think we were just a 2 gap scheme, you had DE's playing the 5 and even 4 and we had our NT's playing 0 and even 1 tech 

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I know what they are supposed to do in a 2 gap scheme which is why I dont think we were just a 2 gap scheme, you had DE's playing the 5 and even 4 and we had our NT's playing 0 and even 1 tech 

 

 

 

Like I said in another post, I really think we played whatever way we had to last yr. because we didn't have the right personnel to run the true scheme's that Pagano wants. I don't think he ran as much 4 man fronts in Balt. as they did last yr. and since Pagano was out most of the yr. that may have had something to do with the way they ran the defense last season. We'll just have to wait and see, but I expect a much more traditional 3-4 base this yr..

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But how much of the 4-man front was a result of not having the personnel available to properly execute the 3-4 base? Freeney clearly wasn't comfortable standing up and therefore rarely did. I don't see us having as many 4-man fronts because it seems like a waste of the personnel we have acquired, hard to know however until they take the field and we see them in action. All this talk about Walden setting the edge at the  weakside leads me to believe that we will see more exotic blitz packages with pressure coming from all areas... ILBs, corners, safeties etc.

 

Ngata and Smith are just exceptional players and the best in their position in the league, but they still don't put up big sack numbers, more allow for the OLBs to take the credit by opening the lanes. Of course I'd love to see our front three get to the QB but I would be more than happy with them breaking up the o-line and let the guys behind them do the damage. And if they effectively stop the run, the pass defense will improve as a result, as with all the top defenses.

The 4 man front you are referring to was mostly our nickel and it will remain a staple used as needed for match ups.  I'd be surprised if we are in the 3-4 base more than last year.  I don't have %'s but we were in it a ton last year.  Freeney stood up a lot. If anything, I expect we'll see it less.  We have 2 different 4 man fronts.  3-4 base and 4-3 hybrid are the same personnel and the NT stays on the field for both. Our most prevalent nickel package was a 4-2-5 with the NT coming off the field.  The personnel additions (Walden, RJF primarily) were specially selected so that we could vary our looks more fluidly while staying sound on assignments.  This tells me that we'll shape shift more like the Ravens than ever.  The 3-4 helped us bring guys in off the street and keep it simple.  This year we become more complex in every way.  Yes, our Dline is geared to stop the run but the emphasis on playmaking is rising as talent is available.  Look at the sack #'s for the Ravens interior - those aren't #'s for pure run stuffers - they have QB pressure responsiblity.  It's not just Ngata.

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Like I said in another post, I really think we played whatever way we had to last yr. because we didn't have the right personnel to run the true scheme's that Pagano wants. I don't think he ran as much 4 man fronts in Balt. as they did last yr. and since Pagano was out most of the yr. that may have had something to do with the way they ran the defense last season. We'll just have to wait and see, but I expect a much more traditional 3-4 base this yr..

Pagano's Ravens were in a 4 man front 50% of the time approx. (someone had the #'s on this last year - chime in if you know the specifics).  I'd guess this included nickel fronts.

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Like I said in another post, I really think we played whatever way we had to last yr. because we didn't have the right personnel to run the true scheme's that Pagano wants. I don't think he ran as much 4 man fronts in Balt. as they did last yr. and since Pagano was out most of the yr. that may have had something to do with the way they ran the defense last season. We'll just have to wait and see, but I expect a much more traditional 3-4 base this yr..

I tend to think we will run much more of the same with upgrades to personnel, i could easily proven wrong though

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This is exactly why I don't see D. Jones being drafted by us. I think were going to see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 this yr. now that we have the proper personnel to do so. Last yr., the coaching staff had to go with what they had to work with and the injury situation just made it worse. This yr. we'll see what the defense is really supposed to look like.

I'm not convinced we'll spend a high pick on a player like Datone Jones, but how much different is he than this guy?  http://www.nfl.com/combine/profiles/pernell-mcphee?id=2495201

McPhee had 6 sacks in 2011 on a fierce Ravens D.  If Jones could do that regularly, I'd want him in the first.  He isn't my first choice, and I'd rather have a larger framed guy if I could get the same production, but there is a role for him given the # of pass rushing snaps there will be.  He may surprise us as a successor to Redding as well.  Redding was 280 out of college.

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The 4 man front you are referring to was mostly our nickel and it will remain a staple used as needed for match ups.  I'd be surprised if we are in the 3-4 base more than last year.  I don't have %'s but we were in it a ton last year.  Freeney stood up a lot. If anything, I expect we'll see it less.  We have 2 different 4 man fronts.  3-4 base and 4-3 hybrid are the same personnel and the NT stays on the field for both. Our most prevalent nickel package was a 4-2-5 with the NT coming off the field.  The personnel additions (Walden, RJF primarily) were specially selected so that we could vary our looks more fluidly while staying sound on assignments.  This tells me that we'll shape shift more like the Ravens than ever.  The 3-4 helped us bring guys in off the street and keep it simple.  This year we become more complex in every way.  Yes, our Dline is geared to stop the run but the emphasis on playmaking is rising as talent is available.  Look at the sack #'s for the Ravens interior - those aren't #'s for pure run stuffers - they have QB pressure responsiblity.  It's not just Ngata.

 

Freeney stood up 25% of the time if I remember correctly, and never looked comfortable doing it. For a supposed base formation, I don't think we played it overly often, personally I would like to see more of it. The same personnel staying on the field for both fronts may have been more of the limitations in terms of depth than anything else, I doubt any team has more front-7 rotation in the league than the Ravens.

 

I guess the idea of formation can be overemphasized, as assignments are not necessarily dictated by where or how you line up. I do agree the FA signings really help us present different looks and make us much more versatile which is a concept I love.

 

Outside of Ngata there were not big sack number from the Ravens d-line last year, though Arthur Jones did get 4, if one of our guys got that, I'd be delighted, but I'm not expecting anyone to do what Ngata does on a regular basis. They will certainly contribute to the pass rush by attempting to collapse the pocket, but even if they get close to the QB, a lot of the time they won't be considered legitimate threats to grab a sack.

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Freeney stood up 25% of the time if I remember correctly, and never looked comfortable doing it. For a supposed base formation, I don't think we played it overly often, personally I would like to see more of it. The same personnel staying on the field for both fronts may have been more of the limitations in terms of depth than anything else, I doubt any team has more front-7 rotation in the league than the Ravens.

 

I guess the idea of formation can be overemphasized, as assignments are not necessarily dictated by where or how you line up. I do agree the FA signings really help us present different looks and make us much more versatile which is a concept I love.

 

Outside of Ngata there were not big sack number from the Ravens d-line last year, though Arthur Jones did get 4, if one of our guys got that, I'd be delighted, but I'm not expecting anyone to do what Ngata does on a regular basis. They will certainly contribute to the pass rush by attempting to collapse the pocket, but even if they get close to the QB, a lot of the time they won't be considered legitimate threats to grab a sack.

The same personnel on the field for both fronts is the cornerstone of the hybrid.  The interior personnel of the classic 3-4 2 gap are not known for pass rushing ability...we all agree, but that is not who we are trying to become.  That is just a tool in the bag to make teams pass.  No team in the NFL is unconcerned with interior pass rush in this day and age.  No team was worse at it than the Colts of the Polian era, but it wasn't for lack of awareness.  They are premium players.

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The same personnel on the field for both fronts is the cornerstone of the hybrid.  The interior personnel of the classic 3-4 2 gap are not known for pass rushing ability...we all agree, but that is not who we are trying to become.  That is just a tool in the bag to make teams pass.  No team in the NFL is unconcerned with interior pass rush in this day and age.  No team was worse at it than the Colts of the Polian era, but it wasn't for lack of awareness.  They are premium players.

 

Yes, of course the interior line is crucial to the pass rush, but that is primarily through pocket disruption and break up. Of course helping out with sacks would be huge as well, but guys of their size are not exactly built for chasing a mobile QB, so their primary  contribution to pass defense is to collapse the pocket. I agree, interior pass rushers are premium players, and that is why I do not expect any of our current personnel to put up big sack numbers, as long as they do their job efficiently, this defense should be a success.

 

I guess my problem with the concept of the hybrid is that I have never so much heard Pagano or Manusky come out and say it, not for this year anyway. We are supposedly a 3-4 team and much of the hybrid formations again may have been because of the lack of appropriate or versatile skillsets and measurables in the players we had. I may be wrong about this, and maybe there have been some assertions by Pagano or Manusky relating to this that I have missed. In regards to keeping the same personnel on the field for both formations, I will take your word for it as it seems logical, but the Ravens appear to have a very regular rotation amongst their front 7.

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http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

 

This is one of the better explanations.  Of course players rotate - especially on the Dline, but this explains how you can shift your fronts without sub packages.  Yes, Pagano and Manusky have discussed the hybrid D at length over the last year+.  Hybrid was not a bandaid, it is the main course.

 

As for Dline pass rush, maybe it is a matter of numbers.  I'm not suggesting we'll put players, even capable ones, in position to get double digit sacks from the interior.  Not only are those incredibly rare players, but we agree that they are also a different scheme fit.  However, multiple players getting 4-7 sacks from interior, in addition to their primary run stop duties is intended from this position group.  Once developed it is a game changing addition to your primary pass rush schemes.  We have never had these types of contributions around here, but we will.

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http://www.baltimorebeatdown.com/2010/4/9/1412079/football-101-the-ravens-hybrid

 

This is one of the better explanations.  Of course players rotate - especially on the Dline, but this explains how you can shift your fronts without sub packages.  Yes, Pagano and Manusky have discussed the hybrid D at length over the last year+.  Hybrid was not a bandaid, it is the main course.

 

As for Dline pass rush, maybe it is a matter of numbers.  I'm not suggesting we'll put players, even capable ones, in position to get double digit sacks from the interior.  Not only are those incredibly rare players, but we agree that they are also a different scheme fit.  However, multiple players getting 4-7 sacks from interior, in addition to their primary run stop duties is intended from this position group.  Once developed it is a game changing addition to your primary pass rush schemes.  We have never had these types of contributions around here, but we will.

 

Great article (towards the end anyway). Although I don't know if we have that degree of talent on our d-line.

 

I guess the prevailing argument is that if we want to truly utlize this defense, a jack of all trades but master of none, is better than a player who excels in one department, especially along the d-line and OLB. These are obviously the type of players Grigson targeted in FA, and would explain the lack of inflated stats by any of the guys, because people who are good at everything rarely have impressive sack stats for example, because they are often dropping back into coverage or setting the edge.

 

I have been an advocate for a truly versatile Patriots-like offense for a long time now, it seems the defense could be getting there first.

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Yes, of course the interior line is crucial to the pass rush, but that is primarily through pocket disruption and break up. Of course helping out with sacks would be huge as well, but guys of their size are not exactly built for chasing a mobile QB, so their primary  contribution to pass defense is to collapse the pocket. I agree, interior pass rushers are premium players, and that is why I do not expect any of our current personnel to put up big sack numbers, as long as they do their job efficiently, this defense should be a success.

 

I guess my problem with the concept of the hybrid is that I have never so much heard Pagano or Manusky come out and say it, not for this year anyway. We are supposedly a 3-4 team and much of the hybrid formations again may have been because of the lack of appropriate or versatile skillsets and measurables in the players we had. I may be wrong about this, and maybe there have been some assertions by Pagano or Manusky relating to this that I have missed. In regards to keeping the same personnel on the field for both formations, I will take your word for it as it seems logical, but the Ravens appear to have a very regular rotation amongst their front 7.

 

I agree...that's why I've said several times that if we take a defensive lineman in the first round then I want him to be able to play the run AND provide an interior pass rush.  Otherwise he's not worth a first round pick imo.  I also think that the hybrid nature of our defense and switching between a 3-man and 4-man front is why we've kept guys like Nevis and Matthews around.  These 2 guys in particular are not really that great at the DE position in a 2-gap 3-4 but they are pretty good at playing 3-tech in a 4-man front and providing an interior pass rush.  So even though some have suggested trying to trade Nevis I would personally like to keep him because I think he's our 2nd best interior pass rusher behind Redding.  

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and nfl.com's mock drafts still has them taking a DT in the first round.......

DT, RB, WR, CB, ME! I don't care who they take, I think it will be the right choice. Until I see different, I will give Grigs and Co. the benefit of the doubt.

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If you're referring to the Grigson interview where he said he was up around 350, something is amiss somewhere. I posted this in another thread a few days ago:

 

Colts Mailbag

 

"MICHAEL F. (from Porter Ranch, CA) I was interested, and frankly stunned, to hear GM Ryan Grigson tell some of our season ticket holders recently that NT Josh Chapmanicon-article-link.gif weighs 350-360!  Please tell me that Grigson misspoke, or that Josh doesn’t plan to play at that weight this season?  Is it possible he’s put on 35-45 pounds since he was drafted?  Please tell me no.  Thanks for these weekly mailbag articles, they’re very helpful!

 

A:  I did not hear the interview, but I assure you Josh is at the same weight range as he was when he joined us.  I spoke with him, and he told me so.  I wouldn’t put any fear into the matter.  All is going well with Josh, and we should see him starting work this year.  I can understand your concern.  We feel he has a bright future.  I told him we had a very concerned mailbag reader, and he liked it.  Keep following us."

 

Hey.....    I know that guy!     I live in Porter Ranch too!     Son of a gun,  what a small world!

 

I was pleased they answered the question...  and I was pleased they got it right from Josh....   but I noticed they didn't give his new weight.   So,  I suspect Josh has put on a few LB's.     I just hope it's not too many.    I hope he's not more than 325, and I'll be fine if eventually he's back to 316.

 

Size and strength are very important....   but so is quickness in a short area.   

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Josh Chapman is actually a lot heavier now.

 

 

CJ....    check out some newer posts in this thread....   he's actually not...

 

An apparent mis-speak by Grigson....   Josh says he's at the same weight range as when he was drafted...

 

He's fine....

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Nice to see that it's not just me wondering why everyone is mocking Datone Jones to us.  To me, there is no need on the team that comes close to our needs on the OL...

 

The problem is,  the best OL will likely be gone long before our pick at 24.   So, there's no one worth the 24th pick to solve our OL problem.

 

So,  Grigson may either take BPA in the first and try to solve the OL issue in the 3rd round...

 

OR.... 

 

He could try to trade back and see if he can solve it in the 2nd round....

 

Taking someone like Jones or Hunt in the first round would address another important issue...  pressure on the QB.

 

Hope that clarifies....

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I believe we already have pass rushing players on the team...i would much rather see what josh mcnarey , jerry hughes , erik walden , and mr sidberry can do before we draft another LB. I think we have to go with a great cover CB in the first round of the draft. All great pass rushing teams have a great pass defence IMO.

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This is exactly why I don't see D. Jones being drafted by us. I think were going to see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 this yr. now that we have the proper personnel to do so. Last yr., the coaching staff had to go with what they had to work with and the injury situation just made it worse. This yr. we'll see what the defense is really supposed to look like.

 

Balzer....

 

I'm not saying you're wrong....  and I'm not saying you're right....   but here is what another Colts fan,  HTownColt, says we run....   And he thinks we don't run a 2-gap scheme...

 

 

We don't run a two gap scheme. We run an attacking hybrid 3-4 like the other hybrids in the NFL. I'll start by saying this: You can tell a lot about a coach's style by finding out who taught him. Manusky's tutors in the 3-4 defensive scheme? One Wade Phillips, who kept Manusky around when he signed on to be the Defensive Coordinator for the Bolts, and one Mike Nolan. Manusky uses Wade Phillips style. And all Pagano preaches is we are an attacking defenses and that's all you hear from with players who talk about our defense, we are going to stop the run and an attack the quarterback and dictate things on the field instead of reacting to an offense which a 2-gap 3-4 would do.

Both Phillips and Nolan that Manusky learned under sit on the "aggressive" side of the fence when it comes to 3-4 coaches. They build around strong CBs that don't mind being left on an island with the receiver, then blitz like crazy. Especially with a lead. The unfortunate part of Manusky's tenure in San Francisco is that the offense never really pulled it's weight, and therefore he probably wasn't able to be as aggressive as he'd like.

Here is an article of John Pagano(Chucks brother) stating that his and Manusky defense are very similar, philosophies are the same and that they both learned from Wade Phillips. Chuck and John Pagano run basically the same defense.

https://www.google.c...yGl73TJRFmYE5Kw 

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The problem is,  the best OL will likely be gone long before our pick at 24.   So, there's no one worth the 24th pick to solve our OL problem.

 

So,  Grigson may either take BPA in the first and try to solve the OL issue in the 3rd round...

 

OR.... 

 

He could try to trade back and see if he can solve it in the 2nd round....

 

Taking someone like Jones or Hunt in the first round would address another important issue...  pressure on the QB.

 

Hope that clarifies....

 

 

Yeah, I think that's a lot of people's attitude about this draft.  Even if it's agreed that OL is the top priority in this draft, who do we target (as no one believes Warford to be worth the pick)?  The problem I have is that I don't see the opportunity cost of selecting Warford "too early" is very high.  None of the pass-rushers likely to be available are safe picks at all...or even necessarily even upgrades over what we have.  None of the WRs have me salivating, plus I wouldn't spend such a high pick on WR this year.  CB might have the best athlete at a position of need, but it's not that great of a need and it's an unbelievablely deep CB draft.  I could go on with other positions.  But, my central thesis is that no player available to us at #24 will be so amazing that I'm willing to pass up such a huge upgrade at RG for us (Warford).  My view may be too short-sighted of a view, I know.  Warford may be the best player available to us for 2013, but maybe Carradine or Trufant or someone would be a Pro-Bowl cog in our defense in a year or two.  I have no idea what Grigson's plans are (nor does anyone else not named "Grigson"), but I'll probably be chanting Warford's name as they are marching to the podium with the Colts' pick.

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This is exactly why I don't see D. Jones being drafted by us. I think were going to see a much more traditional 2 gap scheme 3-4 this yr. now that we have the proper personnel to do so. Last yr., the coaching staff had to go with what they had to work with and the injury situation just made it worse. This yr. we'll see what the defense is really supposed to look like.

I really like what ive seen of this kid,i did read where they think hes not done filling out bodywise,Wouldnt be upset if they took him,thats my personal opinion
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Being totally objective, none of our D line really stand out and being more than average to a little above average. I'm hoping the competition with the sheer numbers of DLinemen will up their level of play. Hopefully better times ahead for the D.

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    • 1.       Trevor Lawrence      Clemson              QB          6'6"        220 2.       Penei Sewell              Oregon OT          6'5"        330 3.       Ja'Marr Chase            LSU        WR         6'1"        200 4.       Zach Wilson                BYU        QB          6'3''        210 5.       Justin Fields Ohio State           QB          6'3''        228 6.       Patrick Surtain II       Alabama              CB           6'1"        203 7.       Jaylen Waddle           Alabama              WRS       5'10"      182 8.       Caleb Farley               Virginia Tech      CB           6'2"        197 9.       Kyle Pitts      Florida  TE           6'5"        239 10.   Micah Parsons           Penn State          ILB          6'2"        245 11.   DeVonta Smith          Alabama              WR         6'1"        175 12.   Trey Lance  North Dakota State         QB          6'3"        226 13.   Jaycee Horn                South Carolina   CB           6'0"        200 14.   Rashawn Slater         Northwestern   OT          6'4''        314 15.   Wyatt Davis Ohio State           OG         6'4"        315 16.   Gregory Rousseau   Miami (FL)           EDGE     6'5"        260 17.   Trevon Moehrig        TCU        S              6'2"        202 18.   Christian Darrisaw    Virginia Tech      OT          6'5''        314 19.   Christian Barmore    Alabama              DL3T      6'5"        310 20.   Rondale Moore         Purdue WRS       5'9"        175 21.   Kwity Paye  Michigan              EDGE     6'4"        277 22.   Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah Notre Dame       OLB        6'1''        216 23.   Asante Samuel Jr.     Florida State       CB           5'10"      180 24.   Samuel Cosmi            Texas    OT          6'7"        309 25.   Rashod Bateman      Minnesota          WR         6'1"        210 26.   Travis Etienne            Clemson              RB           5'10"      210 27.   Mac Jones   Alabama              QB          6'2''        214 28.   Daviyon Nixon           Iowa      DL3T      6'3"        305 29.   Richie Grant               UCF        S              6'0"        194 30.   Azeez Ojulari              Georgia EDGE     6'3"        240 31.   Nick Bolton Missouri               ILB          6'0"        235 32.   Alijah Vera-Tucker   USC        OG         6'4"        315 33.   Najee Harris               Alabama              RB           6'2"        230 34.   Kyle Trask    Florida  QB          6'4''        240 35.   Terrace Marshall      LSU        WR         6'3"        200 36.   Zaven Collins              Tulsa      OLB        6'4''        260 37.   Joseph Ossai              Texas    EDGE     6'4"        253 38.   Alex Leatherwood   Alabama              OT          6'6"        312 39.   Trey Smith  Tennessee          OG         6'6"        330 40.   Creed Humphrey     Oklahoma           OC          6'5"        320 41.   Tyson Campbell        Georgia CB           6'2"        180 42.   Jay Tufele    USC        DL3T      6'2"        310 43.   Andre Cisco Syracuse              S              6'0"        203 44.   Jalen Mayfield           Michigan              OT          6'5"        320 45.   Marvin Wilson           Florida State       DL1T      6'3"        319 46.   Dylan Moses              Alabama              OLB        6'3"        235 47.   Pat Freiermuth         Penn State          TE           6'5"        250 48.   Jayson Oweh             Penn State          EDGE     6'5"        257 49.   Greg Newsome II     Northwestern   CB           6'1"        190 50.   Tylan Wallace             Oklahoma State WR         6'0"        185 51.   Carlos Basham Jr.     Wake Forest       DL5T      6'5"        285 52.   Jabril Cox     LSU        OLB        6'2"        233 53.   Tyler Shelvin              LSU        DL1T      6'3"        346 54.   Kadarius Toney         Florida  WR         5'11''      190 55.   Elijah Molden            Washington        CB           5'10"      186 56.   Elijah Moore              Ole Miss               WRS       5'9"        184 57.   Ben Cleveland           Georgia OG         6'6"        335 58.   Jevon Holland            Oregon S              6'1"        196 59.   Landon Dickerson    Alabama              OC          6'6''        325 60.   Jaylen Twyman         Pitt         DL5T      6'2"        290 61.   Shakur Brown            Michigan State  CB           5'11"      190 62.   Alim McNeill               North Carolina State       DL3T      6'2"        320 63.   Hamsah Nasirildeen Florida State       S              6'4"        215 64.   Jaelan Phillips             Miami (FL)           EDGE     6'5"        255 65.   Shaun Wade               Ohio State           CB           6'1"        194 66.   Kenneth Gainwell    Memphis             RB           5'11"      191 67.   Patrick Jones II          Pitt         EDGE     6'5"        260 68.   Amon-Ra St. Brown USC        WR         6'1"        195 69.   Cameron McGrone Michigan              OLB        6'1''        232 70.   Darius Stills West Virginia      DL5T      6'1"        285 71.   Jackson Carman        Clemson              OT          6'5"        335 72.   Joe Tryon     Washington        EDGE     6'5"        262 73.   Ifeatu Melifonwu     Syracuse              CB           6'3"        212 74.   Talanoa Hufanga      USC        S              6'1"        215 75.   Chazz Surratt              North Carolina   OLB        6'3"        230 76.   Josh Myers Ohio State           OC          6'5''        312 77.   Liam Eichenberg       Notre Dame       OT          6'6"        302 78.   Trey Sermon              Ohio State           RB           6'0"        224 79.   Javonte Williams       North Carolina   RB           5'10"      220 80.   Marlon Williams        UCF        WR         6'0"        215 81.   Michael Carter          North Carolina   RBC        5'9"        195 82.   Paris Ford    Pittsburgh           S              6'0"        190 83.   Levi Onwuzurike      Washington        DL3T      6'3"        293 84.   Dillon Radunz            North Dakota State         OT          6'6''        299 85.   Brevin Jordan            Miami (FL)           TE           6'3"        245 86.   Deonte Brown           Alabama              OG         6'4''        350 87.   Walker Little               Stanford              OT          6'7"        313 88.   Hamilcar Rashed      Oregon State     EDGE     6'3''        248 89.   Chuba Hubbard         Oklahoma State RB           6'1"        207 90.   D'Wayne Eskridge    W Michigan        WRS       5'9"        188 91.   Quincy Roche            Miami (FL)           EDGE     6'4"        235 92.   Anthony Schwartz   Auburn WR         6'0"        197 93.   Jamie Newman         Georgia QB          6'4"        230 94.   Jaelon Darden           North Texas        WRS       5'9"        174 95.   Dyami Brown             North Carolina   WR         6'1"        185 96.   Teven Jenkins            Oklahoma State OT          6'6''        320 97.   Seth Williams             Auburn WR         6'2"        224 98.   Tutu Atwell Louisville              WRS       5'9"        156 99.   Baron Browning        Ohio State           ILB          6'3"        248 100.           Ronnie Perkins  Oklahoma           OLB        6'4'         230 101.           Dazz Newsome North Carolina   WR         5'11"      175 102.           Paulson Adebo  Stanford              CB           6'1"        190 103.           Richard LeCounte III        Georgia S              5'11"      190 104.           Damonte Coxie Memphis             WR         6'3''        197 105.           Aaron Robinson UCF        CB           5'11''      193 106.           Jaret Patterson Buffalo RB           5'9"        195 107.           Drake Jackson    Kentucky             OC          6'2''        292 108.           Sage Surratt        Wake Forest       WR         6'2"        215 109.           Dayo Odeyingbo              Vanderbilt           DL5T      6'5''        279 110.           Israel Mukuamu               South Carolina   CB           6'3"        205 111.           Hunter Long       Boston College  TE           6'5"        253 112.           Kenny Yeboah   Ole Miss               TE           6'4''        240 113.           Marlon Tuipulotu             USC        DL3T      6'1"        308 114.           Divine Deablo    Virginia Tech      S              6'3''        226 115.           Khalil Herbert    Virginia Tech      RBC        5'9"        205 116.           Rashad Weaver Pitt         EDGE     6'5"        270 117.           Eric Stokes          Georgia CB           6'1"        185 118.           Ar'Darius Washington    TCU        S              5'8"        175 119.           Aaron Banks       Notre Dame       OG         6'5"        330 120.           Pete Werner      Ohio State           ILB          6'3''        239 121.           Chris Rumph II   Duke     EDGE     6'3"        225 122.           Tony Poljan        Virginia TE           6'7"        265 123.           Trey Hill                Georgia OC          6'4"        330 124.           Cary Angeline    North Carolina State       TE           6'7"        250 125.           Ihmir Smith-Marsette    Iowa      WR         6'2"        175 126.           Kylin Hill               Mississippi State               RB           5'11"      215 127.           Charles Snowden             Virginia OLB        6'6"        232 128.           Caden Sterns     Texas    S              6'0"        210 129.           Rodarius Williams             Oklahoma State CB           6'0"        193 130.           Quinn Meinerz  UW-Whitewater              OC          6'3"        320 131.           Keith Taylor        Washington        CB           6'3"        191 132.           Elijah Mitchell    Louisiana             RB           5'11"      221 133.           Tedarrell Slaton Florida  DL1T      6'5"        358 134.           Pooka Williams  Kansas  RBC        5'10"      170 135.           Olaijah Griffin    USC        CB           6'0''        170 136.           Torrance Marable            Coastal Carolina                RBC        5'10"      200 137.           Damon Hazelton              Missouri               WR         6'2"        215 138.           Tariq Thompson               San Diego State S              6'0"        200 139.           Ta'Quon Graham              Texas    DL3T      6'4"        294 140.           K.J. Britt                Auburn ILB          6'0"        236 141.           Monty Rice         Georgia OLB        6'1"        235 142.           Kylen Granson   SMU      TE           6'2''        235 143.           Kellen Mond      Texas A&M         QB          6'3"        217 144.           Paddy Fisher      Northwestern   ILB          6'4"        246 145.           Amari Rodgers  Clemson              WR         5'9"        210 146.           Jamien Sherwood            Auburn S              6'2''        220 147.           Max Duffy           Kentucky             P             6'1"        185 148.           Spencer K. Brown             Northern Iowa  OT          6'9''        321 149.           Nico Collins         Michigan              WR         6'4"        222 150.           Tommy Togiai    Ohio State           DL3T      6'2"        300 151.           JaCoby Stevens LSU        S              6'1''        228 152.           Jordan Smith      UAB       EDGE     6'7"        255 153.           Tyler Vaughns   USC        WR         6'2"        190 154.           Jack Anderson   Texas Tech          OG         6'5"        315 155.           Bobby Brown III Texas A&M         DL1T      6'3"        325 156.           Darren Hall          San Diego State CB           6'0"        190 157.           Donovan Stiner Florida  S              6'1"        203 158.           Wyatt Hubert    Kansas State       EDGE     6'3"        270 159.           Thomas Graham Jr.         Oregon CB           5'10"      193 160.           Shemar Jean-Charles      Appalachian State            CB           5'11"      190 161.           Malik Herring     Georgia DL5T      6'3"        283 162.           Daelin Hayes      Notre Dame       EDGE     6'4"        268 163.           Tommy Kraemer              Notre Dame       OG         6'6"        317 164.           Marco Wilson    Florida  CB           6'0"        190 165.           Trill Williams       Syracuse              CB           6'2'         198 166.           Shaka Toney       Penn State          EDGE     6'3"        243 167.           Jimmy Morrissey              Pitt         OC          6'3"        305 168.           Sam Ehlinger      Texas    QB          6'3"        225 169.           Sadarius Hutcherson      South Carolina   OG         6'4"        320 170.           D.J. Daniel           Georgia CB           6'0''        183 171.           Camryn Bynum Cal          CB           6'0''        198 172.           Jermar Jefferson              Oregon State     RBC        5'9"        215 173.           Jose Borregales Miami (FL)           PK           5'10"      205 174.           Alaric Jackson    Iowa      OT          6'6"        315 175.           Brennan Eagles Texas    WR         6'2"        225 176.           Tommy Doyle    Miami (OH)         OT          6'8''        326 177.           Jonathan Marshall           Arkansas              DL1T      6'3"        317 178.           Shane Buechele SMU      QB          6'1"        207 179.           Joshua Kaindoh Florida State       EDGE     6'7"        261 180.           James Hudson   Cincinnati            OT          6'5"        310 181.           Benjamin St-Juste            Minnesota          CB           6'3"        200 182.           Demetric Felton                UCLA     RBC        5'9"        189 183.           Victor Dimukeje Duke     EDGE     6'2"        265 184.           Xavier Kelly         Arkansas              DL3T      6'4"        305 185.           Kary Vincent Jr. LSU        CB           5'10"      182 186.           Noah Gray           Duke     TE           6'4"        240 187.           Adrian Ealy          Oklahoma           OT          6'6"        327 188.           Michal Menet   Penn State          OC          6'4''        305 189.           Pressley Harvin III            Georgia Tech      P             6'0"        255 190.           Amen Ogbongbemiga    Oklahoma State OLB        6'1"        231 191.           T.J. Vasher          Texas Tech          WR         6'6"        210 192.           Josh Imatorbhebhe         Illinois   WR         6'2"        215 193.           Matt Bushman  BYU        TE           6'5"        245 194.           Stevie Scott        Indiana RB           6'2"        231 195.           Brady Christensen           BYU        OT          6'6''        300 196.           Quintin Morris   Bowling Green  TE           6'4"        248 197.           Riley Patterson Memphis             PK           6'0"        190 198.           Malcolm Koonce              Buffalo EDGE     6'3"        250 199.           Robert Rochell   Central Arkansas              CB           6'0''        195 200.           Ben Mason         Michigan              FB           6'3"        254
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