Patriots @ Bills Open Thread

[buffalo34]

Hey congrats! You actually came to mind in the waning seconds of the game... you're a good guy and it was a nice win for your team. Enjoy this stuff because it doesn't always come around often. (Trust me, I was way older than 12 or whatever you said you were back in '03!)

For us, not so much. But it's one game and there's a lotta football left to play.

I remain very, very skeptical of this defense. I think they may have regressed from last season, and not gotten any better. JJ's going to hammer me for this, but... they simply can't get it together and make critical stops. Your QB can't win every game for you (hello, Indy fans).

Thanks! Throughout the game I was just hoping "please don't screw this up, please don't screw this up, please don't screw this up."

I had relatively low expectations for the Bills coming into this season, maybe being half a notch better than last year. Nowhere did I ever think that these guys would be leading the NFL in scoring after 3 games and come out roaring out of the gate. But I still have that little asterisk in my head saying that there's 13 games left, and we have a challenging schedule (NFC East, Patriots one more time and Jets 2x) ahead. Also, we need to win the winnable games on the schedule (Dolphins 2x, Titans, Bengals, Broncos) too.

If we want to be a true contender we can't go less than 4-2 against our division. We need to nab at least one win from the Jets and right now there's no excuse to not sweep Miami at this rate.

I recorded the Boston sports OT shows on channels 4 and 5 in Boston Sunday night and loved hearing "If you give Ryan Fitzpatrick time in the pocket, he will shred your defense."

Fitz has so far come a long way. Not saying it's all by himself, but he's developed a great relationship with Chan Gailey so far. I remember seeing him first take the field in 2009 after a Trent Edwards injury and then later just starting due to Trent being benched. He had a ton of accuracy issues amongst other things. But I liked that under Fitz our receivers, not our RBs were making the plays (and the RBs running after checkdowns was Trent's favorite). Then he gets the nod after Trent is released last year and he gradually improves.

Speaking of the game, where was New England's running game too? Either they didn't run at all or Buffalo somehow did a decent job stopping the run.

The more I look at that game too, the more I notice how beyond awful New England's defense was Sunday. Minimal to no pressure on Fitz. Let Fred Jackson run all over him. Granted, Fitz did throw 2 INTs, but both were in the 1st quarter, where 1 INT bounced off of the hands of Donald Jones while the second INT was a desperate 4th and 14 pass.

Anyhow, heck of an improvement from the "offenses" out of Buffalo we've seen the past decade...

EDIT: Yeah, I agree these wins against NE don't come often. I know I'd be too greedy by asking for a sweep on the last week of the season.

I may be able to go to that game btw, since I live a couple towns over from Foxboro, I was able to go to the MNF opener in 2009 and the Patriots-Bills game at this time last year. Only difference is that those games were in September, when it's still beautiful out in Massachusetts, and this game would be in early January, so it'd be horribly cold. Anyhow, my family knows people, so let's see what happens.

[GoPats]

and here comes the hammer..no j/k.

I haven't said either way on what the D will end up this season.

What I have said they got turnovers and did their job the first two games.

They got burnt some in Buffalo but got an int that led directly to a 14 pts swing.

Then we were int'd for one TD and twice while driving in Bills territory. Just One of those missed TDs wins the game. So what I've said is you're going to lose turning the ball over 4 times and all the penalties (D and O)

I also agree with Moose of Woe in that there is good talent in the front 7 and there is depth there because as always its a long season.

There was depth in the front seven, but at this point there really isn't... a couple of guys on IR, Mike Wright is probably done, Haynesworth has been unreliable and/or unavailable, etc.

The NFL is not the same league it was 10 years ago. A "great" defense these days is one that only allows around 21 points. (Used to be 17 was the benchmark.) With our QB we can put up points with anyone, but as I'm sure you know, championship teams need to be able to win games in different ways. Maybe it's the offense most of the time, but your defense and/or special teams have to "steal" a game for you here or there... kind of like in hockey when you're riding a hot goalie in the playoffs or whatnot.

I'm just lamenting what could have been, I guess. The Patriots have made decisions in recent years that do not look like good choices at this point. They don't have any pass rush to speak of at all, and if Belichick is trying to go with a tighter man coverage system, it's going to be a long year on the defensive side of the ball.

[Yehoodi]

Thanks! Throughout the game I was just hoping "please don't screw this up, please don't screw this up, please don't screw this up."

I had relatively low expectations for the Bills coming into this season, maybe being half a notch better than last year. Nowhere did I ever think that these guys would be leading the NFL in scoring after 3 games and come out roaring out of the gate. But I still have that little asterisk in my head saying that there's 13 games left, and we have a challenging schedule (NFC East, Patriots one more time and Jets 2x) ahead. Also, we need to win the winnable games on the schedule (Dolphins 2x, Titans, Bengals, Broncos) too.

If we want to be a true contender we can't go less than 4-2 against our division. We need to nab at least one win from the Jets and right now there's no excuse to not sweep Miami at this rate.

I recorded the Boston sports OT shows on channels 4 and 5 in Boston Sunday night and loved hearing "If you give Ryan Fitzpatrick time in the pocket, he will shred your defense."

Fitz has so far come a long way. Not saying it's all by himself, but he's developed a great relationship with Chan Gailey so far. I remember seeing him first take the field in 2009 after a Trent Edwards injury and then later just starting due to Trent being benched. He had a ton of accuracy issues amongst other things. But I liked that under Fitz our receivers, not our RBs were making the plays (and the RBs running after checkdowns was Trent's favorite). Then he gets the nod after Trent is released last year and he gradually improves.

Speaking of the game, where was New England's running game too? Either they didn't run at all or Buffalo somehow did a decent job stopping the run.

The more I look at that game too, the more I notice how beyond awful New England's defense was Sunday. Minimal to no pressure on Fitz. Let Fred Jackson run all over him. Granted, Fitz did throw 2 INTs, but both were in the 1st quarter, where 1 INT bounced off of the hands of Donald Jones while the second INT was a desperate 4th and 14 pass.

Anyhow, heck of an improvement from the "offenses" out of Buffalo we've seen the past decade...

EDIT: Yeah, I agree these wins against NE don't come often. I know I'd be too greedy by asking for a sweep on the last week of the season.

I may be able to go to that game btw, since I live a couple towns over from Foxboro, I was able to go to the MNF opener in 2009 and the Patriots-Bills game at this time last year. Only difference is that those games were in September, when it's still beautiful out in Massachusetts, and this game would be in early January, so it'd be horribly cold. Anyhow, my family knows people, so let's see what happens.

Yes congrads on the win buffalo34, After NE and Wash, Buffalo is my third choice to want to win is all . . .

nice to see the Bills 3-0, hopefully they can keep it up and make the playoffs . . . i like Fitzpatrick, I think he is a keeper . . . I have him in one of my fantasy leagues . . . !!

As for the running game, the game has changed somewhat and we are a passing league, also too the Pats tend to use screens instead of run plays . . .

As for the Bills and the playoffs, yes they will have to go 4-2 in the division, really need to sweep the fins and split with the jets and pats . . . I still think the pats might have the edge in the division, so the bills will be looking at the WC race . . . which they will fighting with the jets and others (and the pats if the pats & bills don't win the division) . . . so the division record might be important but I think equally or more important will be the games against fellow WC contenders and getting the head to head tiebreaker against them . . .

as a Red Sox fan and the 86 year drought, I know sometimes how it can be when one's teams has not won for a while and you start to second guess even in the best of moments in the game . . . . . .

[-JJ-]

There was depth in the front seven, but at this point there really isn't... a couple of guys on IR, Mike Wright is probably done, Haynesworth has been unreliable and/or unavailable, etc.

The NFL is not the same league it was 10 years ago. A "great" defense these days is one that only allows around 21 points. (Used to be 17 was the benchmark.) With our QB we can put up points with anyone, but as I'm sure you know, championship teams need to be able to win games in different ways. Maybe it's the offense most of the time, but your defense and/or special teams have to "steal" a game for you here or there... kind of like in hockey when you're riding a hot goalie in the playoffs or whatnot.

I'm just lamenting what could have been, I guess. The Patriots have made decisions in recent years that do not look like good choices at this point. They don't have any pass rush to speak of at all, and if Belichick is trying to go with a tighter man coverage system, it's going to be a long year on the defensive side of the ball.

Not sure the 21 pts is even valid anymore. Might be up to 24:)

BB passed up on Clay Matthews I think. Him and his 3rd picks. Although I guess Mayo was 1st rnd and certainly Wilfork.

[GoPats]

Not sure the 21 pts is even valid anymore. Might be up to 24:)

BB passed up on Clay Matthews I think. Him and his 3rd picks. Although I guess Mayo was 1st rnd and certainly Wilfork.

Jeez, that would be a kind of disappointing exercise... trying to determine all of the impact defensive players who BB passed on to trade down for "value," lol!

I'm not the type to second-guess a HOF coach, so don't get me wrong. If BB showed up at my office right now and told me to pound a staple into the back of my hand I'd probably do it without asking why!

But just once, I'd like to see them go the opposite way and trade up for talent. Take a chance. I'm kind of tired of putting a bunch of Darius Butler types out there and trying to make it work. They need to stop the mindset of "I can get anyone to play well in this system" and start getting better players. Plain and simple.

[-JJ-]

Jeez, that would be a kind of disappointing exercise... trying to determine all of the impact defensive players who BB passed on to trade down for "value," lol!

I'm not the type to second-guess a HOF coach, so don't get me wrong. If BB showed up at my office right now and told me to pound a staple into the back of my hand I'd probably do it without asking why!

But just once, I'd like to see them go the opposite way and trade up for talent. Take a chance. I'm kind of tired of putting a bunch of Darius Butler types out there and trying to make it work. They need to stop the mindset of "I can get anyone to play well in this system" and start getting better players. Plain and simple.

Oh and don't forget Dez Bryant. He was there for the asking too. grrr.

You know his mindset though..his dream team.."plug and play"

[GoPats]

Oh and don't forget Dez Bryant. He was there for the asking too. grrr.

You know his mindset though..his dream team.."plug and play"

Someone's gonna show up and confiscate my Patriots feetsie pajamas for this kind of insubordinate talk.

[Girlzarefanstoo]

Hmmmm.... I looked through this whole thread and no comments from "Patsallday" They were very vocal last week after the SD Pat game about teams that turn the ball over 4 times:

"View PostGirlzarefanstoo, on 19 September 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

So what part of "and we gave them the ball 4 times" was wrong - I believe that = 4 turnovers?

the "we should have won" part.

i bolded it.

no team "should" win turning the ball over 4 times."

Interesting the silence ;-)

I thought the Patriot turnovers were a lot like ours, sometimes a lack of concentration, sometimes weird circumstances. By the end of the game it was obvious that Brady was rattled/frustrated. I thought that the interceptions were about 50/50 Brady's fault. ie If a pass hits off a lineman's helmet it was thrown too low.

The Bills were at home and the energy of the crowd really made the difference in this game. I'm not sure the outcome would have been the same in the Pat's stadium. I came away thinking that Buffalo is for real - for right now. Not sure they'll have the depth to have the staying power for the entire season but I sure enjoyed the game.

[P-Money]

BB has chosen to duplicate the Colts philosophy imo. Your team looks very similar to the Colts now. Better hope your d can step it up come playoff time like ours did during the super bowl run. Because that's the only way to make it. Having a crappy defense and a truly unbelievable offense gets you nowhere most of the time during the playoffs. Good luck Pats fans.

[Yehoodi]

Not sure the 21 pts is even valid anymore. Might be up to 24:)

BB passed up on Clay Matthews I think. Him and his 3rd picks. Although I guess Mayo was 1st rnd and certainly Wilfork.

JJ, I dont want to start cat fight with people, but I always had a problem with those who got upset at BB for "running up the score" back in 2007, not sure what running up the score means beyond scoring unnecessarily, which off the top of my head I can only think of a few examples: running a two minute offense in the 4th qtr up by say 28 points, or playing your starters when the opponent has quit in a meaningful game and benched their starters . . .

. . . fans of all teams, local Boston talk show hosts and local writers got on BB's case, even one of friends . . . and i kept telling him no lead is save till late in the game . . . would always give him examples of teams coming back and the guy wouldn't listen and would always say "well Buffalo cant come back from being down so much . . ." now i get to tell him that even Buffalo can do it, BB was well ahead of the curve on ensuring that his team would always win and never let your guard down for a minute . . .

if this was '07 people would be complaining if BB tried to add to the first half 21 point lead . . . go figure . . .

[Yehoodi]

BB has chosen to duplicate the Colts philosophy imo. Your team looks very similar to the Colts now. Better hope your d can step it up come playoff time like ours did during the super bowl run. Because that's the only way to make it. Having a crappy defense and a truly unbelievable offense gets you nowhere most of the time during the playoffs. Good luck Pats fans.

thanks, i am hoping that our D will develop more, they are young for the most part and it takes time for a players to pick up the D, and BB's D can be complicated . . . my guess is that they will get better . . . but to be truthful we are in a passing league, so for now i think most teams D are struggling . . . is not like say 10 years ago where you might have a D that can be stout, will of the spread offensives nowadays, its tough for Ds to adapt . . . we'll have to wait and see what happens, but i would like to see more out of our D

[chad72]

Belichick should just make free agent moves for a safety. Experienced safeties and LBs won him those SBs. That is where most of the playmaking happened. Of course, there was Seymour and Wilfork on the D-line that made it hard to run but I still believe they are lacking in the safety front talent wise. Since one of their problems is the pass rush, maybe they just go back to the 3-4 and do a Blitzburgh with more talented LBs from the draft .

[Yehoodi]

Belichick should just make free agent moves for a safety. Experienced safeties and LBs won him those SBs. That is where most of the playmaking happened. Of course, there was Seymour and Wilfork on the D-line that made it hard to run but I still believe they are lacking in the safety front talent wise. Since one of their problems is the pass rush, maybe they just go back to the 3-4 and do a Blitzburgh with more talented LBs from the draft .

I didn't mind letting go of "big bang clock" Meriweather, but wish we had kept Sanders . . . to be truthful Chung was not in the lineup on Sunday . . . and if TB had not coughed up a fur ball on Sunday, we might of won the game . . . we are thin at safety and we'll see what happens moving forward, perhaps we go a safety off the streets in the future . . .

[patsallday]

Hmmmm.... I looked through this whole thread and no comments from "Patsallday" They were very vocal last week after the SD Pat game about teams that turn the ball over 4 times:

"View PostGirlzarefanstoo, on 19 September 2011 - 12:18 PM, said:

So what part of "and we gave them the ball 4 times" was wrong - I believe that = 4 turnovers?

the "we should have won" part.

i bolded it.

no team "should" win turning the ball over 4 times."

Interesting the silence ;-)

I thought the Patriot turnovers were a lot like ours, sometimes a lack of concentration, sometimes weird circumstances. By the end of the game it was obvious that Brady was rattled/frustrated. I thought that the interceptions were about 50/50 Brady's fault. ie If a pass hits off a lineman's helmet it was thrown too low.

The Bills were at home and the energy of the crowd really made the difference in this game. I'm not sure the outcome would have been the same in the Pat's stadium. I came away thinking that Buffalo is for real - for right now. Not sure they'll have the depth to have the staying power for the entire season but I sure enjoyed the game.

ha.

oh wait, we still beat the chargers lol lol lol lol

[patsallday]

I didn't mind letting go of "big bang clock" Meriweather, but wish we had kept Sanders . . . to be truthful Chung was not in the lineup on Sunday . . . and if TB had not coughed up a fur ball on Sunday, we might of won the game . . . we are thin at safety and we'll see what happens moving forward, perhaps we go a safety off the streets in the future . . .

tom played awful.

and we lost by 3.

chung not in the lineup really hurt.

brown/barrett did not show me anything.

[-JJ-]

tom played awful.

and we lost by 3.

chung not in the lineup really hurt.

brown/barrett did not show me anything.

huh? Brady didn't "play" awful. 30/45,4 TDs. After throwing 2 INTs he only came right back throwing 7/7 for a score. As he said in his press conf...bounce of the ball. That's football.

[patsallday]

huh? Brady didn't "play" awful. 30/45,4 TDs. After throwing 2 INTs he only came right back throwing 7/7 for a score. As he said in his press conf...bounce of the ball. That's football.

picks to ocho and gronk were awful throws.

tom would tell you he played terrible too.

we're moving on to oakland.

[Yehoodi]

huh? Brady didn't "play" awful. 30/45,4 TDs. After throwing 2 INTs he only came right back throwing 7/7 for a score. As he said in his press conf...bounce of the ball. That's football.

I think it is always dicey to critique a player when he has played really well outside of some really critical bonehead plays . . . but regarding Tom's performance, he did not do what is necessary as a QB in that game . . . there were 4 INTS, I can only put one/two of them on TB (Woodhead throw - i know it hit his hands but you dont rifle a ball at a RB that is doing a 270 degree turn), the Gronk INT was a good play by the DB, and TB could not really had made a higher throw as Gronk was stretched out, in this case, as it was first down (i think) in FG range, Tom should of thrown it higher and if it doesn't get caught so be it, that is case where I would of like to seen a ole TB "I rather throw it away as oppossed to trying for the completion and risk an INT", so this extent it was TB's fault, the Chad INT might of been Chad's fault, and the pick six was a good play by the DL, TB typically throws the ball low to avoid an INT so I do not mind the down direction throw . . .

But TB did made two bad INT, woodhead & Gronk, and both were in FG range, and normally TB is aware of this, but those INT took points off the board, and if one wants to fault TB for nto seeing the DL, the last INT gave the opponent 6 points, so perhaps a 12 turnaround just at the QB position. . .

So yes the pats got 4 TDs on offense, and maybe awful is too strong of a word, but TB, with the ball twice in FG range, made a few too many mistakes to not bring the ire of the fan base IMO . . .

[-JJ-]

picks to ocho and gronk were awful throws.

tom would tell you he played terrible too.

we're moving on to oakland.

No actually Tom didn't say he played bad. he said thats the bounce and thats football.

Ocho dropped that pass. It was right there. I don't recall the gronk pass but gee unless you go 45/45 there are always some inc.

I look at how the QB plays all game..not single out inc or ints.

I've seen him played bad before ints or not..this was not one of those games. Its called football:)

[-JJ-]

I think it is always dicey to critique a player when he has played really well outside of some really critical bonehead plays . . . but regarding Tom's performance, he did not do what is necessary as a QB in that game . . . there were 4 INTS, I can only put one/two of them on TB (Woodhead throw - i know it hit his hands but you dont rifle a ball at a RB that is doing a 270 degree turn), the Gronk INT was a good play by the DB, and TB could not really had made a higher throw as Gronk was stretched out, in this case, as it was first down (i think) in FG range, Tom should of thrown it higher and if it doesn't get caught so be it, that is case where I would of like to seen a ole TB "I rather throw it away as oppossed to trying for the completion and risk an INT", so this extent it was TB's fault, the Chad INT might of been Chad's fault, and the pick six was a good play by the DL, TB typically throws the ball low to avoid an INT so I do not mind the down direction throw . . .

But TB did made two bad INT, woodhead & Gronk, and both were in FG range, and normally TB is aware of this, but those INT took points off the board, and if one wants to fault TB for nto seeing the DL, the last INT gave the opponent 6 points, so perhaps a 12 turnaround just at the QB position. . .

So yes the pats got 4 TDs on offense, and maybe awful is too strong of a word, but TB, with the ball twice in FG range, made a few too many mistakes to not bring the ire of the fan base IMO . . .

Brady's ints might have and probably did lose the game.No question of the turn around as I've stated previously in the defense comments and you can't turn the ball over 4 times. But looking <ahem> objectively at the QB play itself, he played good. Ints are part of football. If you noticed some of those completions were amazing in threading it right in. The more threads..the greater the chance of an int.

he does typically throw low, however that's something he and the coaching must adjust to if the defense is playing that way, which the Bills were.

[UMLBB10]

we Pats fans are sounding like colts fans if we're gonna start defending Brady's INT's and categorizing them as "not his fault" and "his fault, but...." if we're gonna play that game we need to add in balls a qb throws that should have been picked but weren't. at the end of the day its on the QB to guide the offense and protect the ball. ESPECIALLY with a 21-0 lead approaching the half. a qb shouldnt even think of making a throw that comes with any risk at all in those situations. we all know the qb gets a lot of credit when they win and blame when they lose. because its all ultimately on them.

with all that said, days like that are going to happen until the Pats figure out how to play defense. when you ask an offense to rack up 500+ yards and score on every single drive just to be in the game, sundays game against the bills is going to happen. i think colt fans from 03-05 and 07 up will agree?

[WSO]

we Pats fans are sounding like colts fans if we're gonna start defending Brady's INT's and categorizing them as "not his fault" and "his fault, but...." if we're gonna play that game we need to add in balls a qb throws that should have been picked but weren't. at the end of the day its on the QB to guide the offense and protect the ball. ESPECIALLY with a 21-0 lead approaching the half. a qb shouldnt even think of making a throw that comes with any risk at all in those situations. we all know the qb gets a lot of credit when they win and blame when they lose. because its all ultimately on them.

with all that said, days like that are going to happen until the Pats figure out how to play defense. when you ask an offense to rack up 500+ yards and score on every single drive just to be in the game, sundays game against the bills is going to happen. i think colt fans from 03-05 and 07 up will agree?

i agree, pats look a lot like the old Colts high powered offense with no defense

but to be fair the '05 colts actually had a very good defense, it was the offense that was to blame for the playoff loss.

the 06 defense was also very bad (gave up i believe 375 yards rushing in ONE game against the jags) but in the playoffs Sanders returned and the defense played like a top 5 defense

[GoPats]

The QB is like the CEO of the football team, player-wise. If they win, they get more credit than they probably deserve. So the same should hold true for when they lose. All four of Brady's INTs last weekend were either poor throws (1 too high for Woodhead, 1 deflected at the line) or bad decisions (1 to Gronk while doubled, 1 to Chad when he didn't have great separation).

The first INT breathed life back into the Bills. It could have been 28-7 heading into the half.

Ultimately, any turnover is the more or less the responsibility of the last guy who touched the ball.

[-JJ-]

i agree, pats look a lot like the old Colts high powered offense with no defense

I don't buy that at all. No teams are ever the same. There's just more passing now.Thats all.

Back when the colts had the high powered offense no team could match that kind of passing including the patriots. NE just mixed it up,screens,runs etc. and played defense.

Look at the last few years. There's a lot of high powered offenses... simply because passing is better.