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jshipp23

You don't draft a Guard in RD1 or a CB! OLB , RB, DE Period!

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Okay.  Warmack is considered the best football player in the draft and yet he will not go number one because he is a guard.  Cooper is being called the most athletic guard some scouts have ever seen and he will not go number one because he is a guard.  The best guard in years went late in the 1st round last year. Guards do not get drafted high as a rule.   Now, apparently you found one scout who puts Warford ahead of Cooper.  Congrats.  The rest of them have him a distant 3rd and mock him in the 2nd round.  If Warmack or Cooper fell to us, then yes I think we grab one, but Warford will be there at 24 and there is no way he will be the BPA at that pick.  He will just be the 3rd best guard.  As many posters have said, need is a poor evaluator and that's what you were doing.  We do need a guard, but we'll get one later on.  At least that's what makes sense.

Why does it not make sense to trade up and get Warmack if he is the best football player in the draft and we have a need at that position?

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Why does it not make sense to trade up and get Warmack if he is the best football player in the draft and we have a need at that position?

 

Because we have other needs as well. 

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Ray Ray Armstrong will be a good pick in the 4th....

I am wondering where  you get Armstrong in the 4th...rated anywhere from the 12th to 27th best safety.  Trying to understand your logic there.....

 

 

 

  1. 3/30/13: Armstrong was ruled ineligible by the NAIA. He entered the 2013 NFL Draft having not played in 2012. Armstrong would be fortunate to land an undrafted free agent contract. 

    9/2/12: Armstrong left Miami after more off-the-field issues. Ending up at an NAIA school is going to hurt his stock tremendously. He was suspended for the first four games of the 2011 season and his presence was missed by Miami. Armstrong was suspended for an additional game after outing himself on Twitter for having dinner with a marketing representative. The junior had 34 tackles, an interception and two passes broken up in six games last year.

 

 

Why not see if he is available late.....as this says he does have a high ceiling.  Then again, so does my house :)

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Okay.  Warmack is considered the best football player in the draft and yet he will not go number one because he is a guard.  Cooper is being called the most athletic guard some scouts have ever seen and he will not go number one because he is a guard.  The best guard in years went late in the 1st round last year. Guards do not get drafted high as a rule.   Now, apparently you found one scout who puts Warford ahead of Cooper.  Congrats.  The rest of them have him a distant 3rd and mock him in the 2nd round.  If Warmack or Cooper fell to us, then yes I think we grab one, but Warford will be there at 24 and there is no way he will be the BPA at that pick.  He will just be the 3rd best guard.  As many posters have said, need is a poor evaluator and that's what you were doing.  We do need a guard, but we'll get one later on.  At least that's what makes sense.

  

 

 

It's not one scout. It's NFL.com, they have a whole committee of people that decide the draft grades. They are really the only one's worth paying attention to because they are right on target most of the time.  It's crazy to me that you think that if Warmack or Cooper are sitting there, you grab them , but if Warford is setting there you pass. :thinking:

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I have a strange feeling that Leon Sandcastle will fall to us at #24. If he does take him!

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I have a strange feeling that Leon Sandcastle will fall to us at #24. If he does take him!

I would rather have Deon White Castle.....he lives in Greencastle.

 

white_castle.jpg

 

No.......don't eat all of those sliders!  Death by grease and ..........gastro-intestinal....fortitude?  :)

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Yes he is and it's been discussed at length in this thread.

That's your view of things, not mine. Your opinion seems to be a minority one at that.

Taking Warford @ 24 would be reaching quite a bit. I'm pretty certain that if we traded down into the early half of the second round, we would still get him if we really want him.

 

There's just no way Warford is the BPA when picking @ 24.

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That's your view of things, not mine. Your opinion seems to be a minority one at that.

Taking Warford @ 24 would be reaching quite a bit. I'm pretty certain that if we traded down into the early half of the second round, we would still get him if we really want him.

 

There's just no way Warford is the BPA when picking @ 24.

 

 

 

Well, the people at NFL.com would disagree and they are the most reputable people doing the draft grades.

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Well, the people at NFL.com would disagree and they are the most reputable people doing the draft grades.

And yet, not a single mock on NFL.com has Warford going in the first round. Go figure....

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And yet, not a single mock on NFL.com has Warford going in the first round. Go figure....

 

 

 

Are you really suggesting mocks are a reliable way to judge talent? Any doofus can make make a mock, they mean nothing!

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And yet, not a single mock on NFL.com has Warford going in the first round. Go figure....

 

 

 

Justin Hunter has been suggested here countless times as somebody we should pick at 24, but if you go by some of the other less reliable mock draft sites across the web, Hunter is seen as a late 2nd rd. pick. Most mock draft sites don't put any research into what they do, they just steal information from other sites and draw their own conclusions. Fans get into their heads that certain players aren't worth a 1st rd. pick and they just regurgitate those assumptions on the forum. They really don't know what they're talking about but since somebody else said it, then they think they're right. I just go by what is the most reliable and NFL.com is by far the most reliable. I'm not saying we'll pick Warford, but those who think we won't simply because some clowns that make mock drafts on the internet don't think he'll go in the 1st, isn't a smart way to look at it. If Warmack and Cooper are gone at 24 and we are interested in Warford and don't think he'll last if we trade back, then don't be surprised if we call his name.

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Well even the top talent-ratings at NFL.com have Warford around 40th best player (at best), or below, in the draft class this year since apparently the guys at NFL.com is the benchmark.

So maybe taking him @ 24 would be a reach.. Just saying there might be a better player available, or that it could make sense trading back into the early part of the second round and still getting him + an extra pick somewhere.

 

I'm not claiming that the mocks are some kind of gold standard, but it's the same guys making them, that you earlier claimed was the premier judges of player talent and ability.

 

EDIT - And by the way, the mock i was referring to was made by the NFL.com analysts, not some random site.

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Well, the people at NFL.com would disagree and they are the most reputable people doing the draft grades.

I have never been able to find out who does those draft grades. I know Gavin has floated it out there that it's the draft advisory committee, but I find that highly unlikely.

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I have never been able to find out who does those draft grades. I know Gavin has floated it out there that it's the draft advisory committee, but I find that highly unlikely.

 

 

That is what I've heard too, but regardless of who it is, IMO they are the most reputable one's doing it. I trust they're grades way more than any others.

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Well even the top talent-ratings at NFL.com have Warford around 40th best player (at best), or below, in the draft class this year since apparently the guys at NFL.com is the benchmark.

So maybe taking him @ 24 would be a reach.. Just saying there might be a better player available, or that it could make sense trading back into the early part of the second round and still getting him + an extra pick somewhere.

 

I'm not claiming that the mocks are some kind of gold standard, but it's the same guys making them, that you earlier claimed was the premier judges of player talent and ability.

 

EDIT - And by the way, the mock i was referring to was made by the NFL.com analysts, not some random site.

 

 

 

Fair enough, but all I'm saying is that Warford is a possibility at 24. Regardless of whether there are higher graded players on the board when we pick, he could still be the pick. I know people like to talk about BPA, but it's largely a fallacy. GM's will go with BPA at a position where they feel they need an upgrade.

 

GM's will have a board with the best players at each position, then they will prioritize those positions with where the biggest needs on the team are. Just because a TE or a RB may have a higher grade than the best player at a bigger position of need, don't mean they'll pick the TE or RB. They'll pick the best player at the higher priority position.

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There is so much wrong with this post I don't even know where to start.

1. you don't have an all-time great QB. You had one. Then you drafted one of the greatest prospects ever, and he had a darn good rookie year. But make no mistake, at this stage of his development, Luck is not Peyton, he isn't Brady nor Rodgers or even Brees. If you want him to get there, you have to develop him and keep him upright.

David Carr is one of the top 20 QB prospects of all-time (my opinion) and he now has a syndrome named after him. If you don't have a capable OL Luck could get David Carr'd. And that would be a darn shame, he could be one of the best ever.

2. You have speed on the inside, no real #2 threat, and an aging superstar who could fall off a cliff at any time.

3. Ballard and Lacy = thunder and lightning? Oh that's bad.... Thunder is for a pure power back, lightning is for a pure speed guy, the best example in recent memory is Tiki Barber and Brandon Jacobs for the Giants a few years ago. Lacy and Ballard don't fit either mold properly. A good tandem, but not really something that should be classified as thunder and lightning. Oh and Lacy would be a big reach at 24, but that's really besides the point isn't it?

4. No team in NFL history has ever consistently won 56-13. Not even the 07 Patriots routinely did that, and they were the best offensive team of all-time.

5. In the NFL it doesn't matter how you win, just that you do it. Each team needs it own identify and The colts have decided to go ground and pound until Luck develops and is ready to lead a team to the promised land slinging it around like Drew Brees or Aaron Rodgers. The biggest mistake the colts can make (and it does t appear as if they are) is to assume the kid is already Peyton Manning. He isn't, and won't be that level of elite for quite awhile, if ever.

Rock and Roll might be more appropriate...I never said not to address the line!!! We have already added 2 starters, the young guys we had are going to improve and ijalana is supposedly gonna be healthy and we can still sign another guard so our line already will be vastly improved...Now i will say I've come off the thought of not drafting a guard in the 1st. If Cooper is there at 24 you take he is SPECIAL, I don't see him being there though so you go rush OLB in the first or trade back into the 2nd and take Margus Hunt if available Lacy or Warford , although there is a big drop off from Cooper to Warford IMO...Luck will show this year with time that he is already elite, he carried that team last year and won a lot of games on pure ability...Brady and Peyton are on their final legs, Flacco is good but lost a lot of his surrounding cast...Luck will own the AFC the next 10 years..NOTHING WRONG WITH HAVING A GOOD LINE BUT AGAIN I REITERATE YOU DON'T PLAY GROUND AND POUND WITH LUCK AND THE RECEIVERS AND TIGHT ENDS HE HAS IT'S CRAZY! Do the Packers ground and pound, or the Pats, or the Broncos, or the Falcons????????? If you have an elite QB you use that to bury teams...

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I am wondering where  you get Armstrong in the 4th...rated anywhere from the 12th to 27th best safety.  Trying to understand your logic there.....

 

 

 

  1. 3/30/13: Armstrong was ruled ineligible by the NAIA. He entered the 2013 NFL Draft having not played in 2012. Armstrong would be fortunate to land an undrafted free agent contract. 

    9/2/12: Armstrong left Miami after more off-the-field issues. Ending up at an NAIA school is going to hurt his stock tremendously. He was suspended for the first four games of the 2011 season and his presence was missed by Miami. Armstrong was suspended for an additional game after outing himself on Twitter for having dinner with a marketing representative. The junior had 34 tackles, an interception and two passes broken up in six games last year.

 

 

Why not see if he is available late.....as this says he does have a high ceiling.  Then again, so does my house :)

I just love his potential, if it wasn't for the off-field stuff he'd be a day 1 pick for sure...If we can get him late that would be great but I'm sure there are other G.M.'s out there that see what I see. I've never seen a safety like him, and I believe he can add weight and be a great linebacker, he would be weapon against the tall elite receivers and he lays the boom, I see Eric Berry and Sean Taylor potential with him..Yes he needs developed, but that's how you get Pro Bowl players in later rounds... ARMSTRONG WAS SECOND TEAM ALL-ACC , SELECTION IN "2010", RECORDED 79 TACKLES AND 3 INTERCEPTIONS, AND SHOWED UP AGAINST ELITE COMPETITION RECORDING 9 TACKLES AGAINST OHIO STATE AND FLORIDA STATE....ARMSTRONG IS FAST, BIG, AND ATHLETIC. IF HE LANDS WITH THE "RIGHT" COACHING STAFF HE COULD BE A STEAL DUE TO HIS "HIGH" CEILING..-"WALTER FOOTBALL.COM"---YES, HE GOT IN TROUBLE BUT HAS PRO BOWL POTENTIAL AS A 4TH ROUNDER..IF WE CAN GET HIM IN THE 6TH OR 7TH THEN GREAT, BUT I DOUBT HE'LL BE THERE..HE WOULD BE A FIRST ROUND PICK IMO IF HE STAYED AT MIAMI...KIDS MAKE MISTAKES AND LEARN FROM THEM...IF HE WAS TO END UP WITH THE WRONG TEAM IT COULD BE A DISASTER BUT I THINK WITH THE COACHES AND PLAYERS WE HAVE HERE HE COULD BE THE STEAL OF THE WHOLE DRAFT...

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I really like Warford but watching the tape of him against Georgia on youtube he did not to appear to be as strong as I thought, now obviously going against John Jenkins and Geathers will do that to ya but he looked slow getting to the second level as well, I think better players can be had at 24, not many and it would take a few more to drop before I'd pass on Warford at 24 but I have a list (short list) who I would take over (according to who I believe could conceivably be there however some are very unlikely but do to certain reasons such as health questions may fall) Warford in no particular order

 

1.Xavier Rhodes

2.Damontre Moore

3.Bjoern Werner

4.Johnathan Cooper

5.Alex Okafor

6.Jarvis Jones

7.Cornelius Carradine

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I really like Warford but watching the tape of him against Georgia on youtube he did not to appear to be as strong as I thought, now obviously going against John Jenkins and Geathers will do that to ya but he looked slow getting to the second level as well, I think better players can be had at 24, not many and it would take a few more to drop before I'd pass on Warford at 24 but I have a list (short list) who I would take over (according to who I believe could conceivably be there however some are very unlikely but do to certain reasons such as health questions may fall) Warford in no particular order

 

1.Xavier Rhodes

2.Damontre Moore

3.Bjoern Werner

4.Johnathan Cooper

5.Alex Okafor

6.Jarvis Jones

7.Cornelius Carradine

 

Any chance Colts look at Ogletree and Brown??

 

Also, I think Okafor would be way too high for a #24. If Warford is a reach then Okafor is DEFINITELY a reach. I dont think Ive seen a single mock that has him going in the 1st round.

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This forum is absolutely amusing at times. 2 posts up the poster says Okafor is a big reach at 24 isn't a 1st rd. prospect, then the very next post says we should take Okafor with the 24th pick. For the record I agree that 24 is way too high for Okafor. Mayock said he's a 4th rd. prospect and from what I've seen I agree with him. 

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Are you really suggesting mocks are a reliable way to judge talent? Any doofus can make make a mock, they mean nothing!

Hey you calling me a doofus?  I resemble that remark!!!  :)

 

doofus_raiders.jpg

 

OK...did not know doofus was a Raider fan.....but I could have guessed  haha

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Hey you calling me a doofus?  I resemble that remark!!!   :)

 

doofus_raiders.jpg

 

OK...did not know doofus was a Raider fan.....but I could have guessed  haha

 

 

 

I didn't know that either, learn something new everyday. :D

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Justin Hunter has been suggested here countless times as somebody we should pick at 24, but if you go by some of the other less reliable mock draft sites across the web, Hunter is seen as a late 2nd rd. pick. Most mock draft sites don't put any research into what they do, they just steal information from other sites and draw their own conclusions. Fans get into their heads that certain players aren't worth a 1st rd. pick and they just regurgitate those assumptions on the forum. They really don't know what they're talking about but since somebody else said it, then they think they're right. I just go by what is the most reliable and NFL.com is by far the most reliable. I'm not saying we'll pick Warford, but those who think we won't simply because some clowns that make mock drafts on the internet don't think he'll go in the 1st, isn't a smart way to look at it. If Warmack and Cooper are gone at 24 and we are interested in Warford and don't think he'll last if we trade back, then don't be surprised if we call his name.

Isn't that why we call it BPA?  Not rocket science right?  Not an exact science....mocks are like the weather to me.....predict all you want...never going to be correct 100%

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Isn't that why we call it BPA?  Not rocket science right?  Not an exact science....mocks are like the weather to me.....predict all you want...never going to be correct 100%

 

 

 

Absolutely. I think some people have the wrong idea about BPA. I've seen teams white boards in the war room during the draft. GM's will make up a list of BPA from every position and then they prioritize what position is the biggest need. In other words, if teams have a TE or a RB as players with higher grades but guard is the biggest need on their team and there is a guard available thats BPA at his position, then they will draft the guard even though the TE and or RB may have a higher grade. It will always be BPA at a position of need and not just BPA of any position.

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Absolutely. I think some people have the wrong idea about BPA. I've seen teams white boards in the war room during the draft. GM's will make up a list of BPA from every position and then they prioritize what position is the biggest need. In other words, if teams have a TE or a RB as players with higher grades but guard is the biggest need on their team and there is a guard available thats BPA at his position, then they will draft the guard even though the TE and or RB may have a higher grade. It will always be BPA at a position of need and not just BPA of any position.

Exactly my point Balzer.  Well stated. :thmup:

 

Also a GM sees that his QB rolls better to the left or right, and specifically looks at THE technique from the prospct that will keep his QB upright and off of IR.  That is why to me there is a fine line between the Coopers, Warmacks and Warfords. Grades will be grades.....and these are all good football players.  

 

Just like Iljalana...you do not know who is going to go out and blow out a knee next week either.....sorry to say.... :(

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Yes he is and it's been discussed at length in this thread.

 

Really?    Warford is a player you'd be comfortable taking with the 24th overall pick?     If we've discussed at any length,  then I happened to miss that......

 

Really?    You think he's a first round pick??

 

Goodness,  I love the guy and I don't think he's a 1st round pick.....

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Really?    Warford is a player you'd be comfortable taking with the 24th overall pick?     If we've discussed at any length,  then I happened to miss that......

 

Really?    You think he's a first round pick??

 

Goodness,  I love the guy and I don't think he's a 1st round pick.....

 

 

 

He has a higher draft grade than Cooper on NFL.com. I'm certainly not the only one who believes he's worth a 1st rd. pick. 

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He has a higher draft grade than Cooper on NFL.com. I'm certainly not the only one who believes he's worth a 1st rd. pick. 

 

I know about his grade.    In another thread I used that as an example of how poorly I think NFL.com grades players.

 

I think that one is particularly silly.    There are a number of others,  but that one jumped off the page at me.....      :loco:

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I know about his grade.    In another thread I used that as an example of how poorly I think NFL.com grades players.

 

I think that one is particularly silly.    There are a number of others,  but that one jumped off the page at me.....      :loco:

 

 

 

I don't know why it's silly. He's big, strong, has quick feet with good footwork. has excellent hand technique and can just plain maul his defender. I've said it before and I'll say it again, IMO the only reason why more scouts and fans think Cooper is better is because he fits the scheme of more teams than Warford does. More teams use a ZBS as opposed to a MBS and therefore Cooper appeals to more teams cause he could play either. Warford is the prototypical MBS lineman.

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CBS sports has Cooper 14th overall prospect and 2nd best Guard. Warford on the other hand 75th overall prospect and 4th best Guard. NFLDraftScout grade them the same way.. Just showing how different sites view the two

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It doesn't really matter what you want to hear. Pagano has already said he wants to run the ball and stop the run. Grigson said he wants to build the best O-line in the NFL when he was 1st hired. The key to a successful team is being strong in the trenches. The Bill Polian way was to build the skill positions and fill the trenches with scrubs and it killed us when the playoffs came around. You may not like it, but Grigson and Pagano vehemently disagree and so do many fans, including myself. 

 

Very, very well said.  Looking at a depth chart, Grigson has left quite a bit of OL work for the draft, and I'd be surprised if it wasn't the 1st.  I'm not so sure that the #24 pick will yield a great "value" at OG, unless Fluker falls to us.  But you'd have a hard time making the argument (to me, anyway) that Warford isn't the player that improves the Colts the most at #24 (if Fluker is gone).  And that's the point of the draft, not pleasing draftniks who say Warford is only worth the #45 pick.

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I don't know why it's silly. He's big, strong, has quick feet with good footwork. has excellent hand technique and can just plain maul his defender. I've said it before and I'll say it again, IMO the only reason why more scouts and fans think Cooper is better is because he fits the scheme of more teams than Warford does. More teams use a ZBS as opposed to a MBS and therefore Cooper appeals to more teams cause he could play either. Warford is the prototypical MBS lineman.

 

No.....   to me the reason why Cooper is better is because he has fabulous feet....  he can move like a deer....   he can do everything in run blocking as well as pass blocking....   and, he has the added benefit of being able to play center....

 

He also faced a higher level of competition...

 

Plus,  Warford has weight issues....   Cooper has none.

 

Put another way,   have you found a lot of other websites or individuals that are predicting Warford as a 1st rounder?

 

I don't think many.....   yet, Cooper is not only being called a first rounder,  he's being called a guy who could go top-10 and should likely go no lower than top-20.

 

Not so for Warford....

 

One last thought.... a reminder that I went through and counted the number of players who have grades good enough for the 5th round or better....   remember,  through 5 rounds is typically 165-170 depending on supplemental picks.    The NFL.com has more than 260 players with 5th round grades or better....    

 

Heck, the entire draft is only 256 players.     Do you really think every player in the draft all the way down to Mr. Irrelevant is going to have a 5th round grade or better?    I sure don't.

 

I think NLF.com suffers from a bad case of Grade Inflation....

 

There are other examples of note....    but we can save it for another day...

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Any chance Colts look at Ogletree and Brown??

 

Also, I think Okafor would be way too high for a #24. If Warford is a reach then Okafor is DEFINITELY a reach. I dont think Ive seen a single mock that has him going in the 1st round.

Likely we could trade down for Okafor but given his first round grade and college production he could go in the 1st I expect some of that will depend on just how many pass rushers go in the 1st, if they start dropping like flies then he could very well go, either way hes a late first or top of the 2nd pick, skill wise as well as production in my opinion

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Any chance Colts look at Ogletree and Brown??

 

Also, I think Okafor would be way too high for a #24. If Warford is a reach then Okafor is DEFINITELY a reach. I dont think Ive seen a single mock that has him going in the 1st round.

I'd tell ya know, but if the Colts truly do go BPA then it could happen, we do have some depth at that position and a couple of good starters, with that said we do need a thumper at that position, I seriously doubt we go ILB however, small small, I expect pass rusher, Guard or Corner, maybe wr or de but both of those seem less likely now although we did apparently show some interest in in Jesse Williams and and I believe Brown....maybe? Forgets. They wont know beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are picking until our name is called simply because we wont know who is left to choose from

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I'd tell ya know, but if the Colts truly do go BPA then it could happen, we do have some depth at that position and a couple of good starters, with that said we do need a thumper at that position, I seriously doubt we go ILB however, small small, I expect pass rusher, Guard or Corner, maybe wr or de but both of those seem less likely now although we did apparently show some interest in in Jesse Williams and and I believe Brown....maybe? Forgets. They wont know beyond a shadow of a doubt who they are picking until our name is called simply because we wont know who is left to choose from

 

True, Im quite excited. I know we'll get a steal because like every year, some teams WILL overvalue some player and make a reach. It could potentially land some really good players in our laps like Cooper, Mingo, Jones

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True, Im quite excited. I know we'll get a steal because like every year, some teams WILL overvalue some player and make a reach. It could potentially land some really good players in our laps like Cooper, Mingo, Jones

It is also a bad year for us to try to get a great steal due to lack of QBs usually atleast 2 in top 10 and 3 in top 20.

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I don't know why it's silly. He's big, strong, has quick feet with good footwork. has excellent hand technique and can just plain maul his defender. I've said it before and I'll say it again, IMO the only reason why more scouts and fans think Cooper is better is because he fits the scheme of more teams than Warford does. More teams use a ZBS as opposed to a MBS and therefore Cooper appeals to more teams cause he could play either. Warford is the prototypical MBS lineman.

 

A follow-up about grade inflation....

 

You've got roughly 100 picks through the 1st three rounds....  (including the supplemental picks at the end of the 3rd)

 

ESPN.com says there are 119 players with grades of 3rd round or higher....   so, that will carry comfortably into the 4th round...

 

But....  NFL.com says there are 132 layers with grades of 3rd round or higher...   that takes you all the way through the entire 4th round...   (minus perhaps a few supplemental picks)....    So,  that means there are 131 more players with 4th and 5th round grades to cover the rest of the entire draft....

 

At some point it's just too much......    

 

Put another way.....   unless I'm mistaken,  you're firmly in the camp of no RB's in the first round.    You know what other positions some NFL people say don't waste a 1st rounder on?    Guard and Inside linebacker.     So,  you've got Warmack and Cooper as special players because they have rare gifts....    Warmack, incredible strength and balance and power...   Cooper, fantastic feet and movement skills along with surprising strength and versatility.    

 

Warford has great size and and good strength.   He's got decent feet.   But he doesn't have any special skills that Warmack and Cooper have.    There's no shame in being called a 2nd round pick.  (ESPN's grade for him is a low 2nd)   I just don't see any reason why NFL.com would have him rated so highly....   it makes no sense to me....   none...

 

Apologies this went on so long....

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It is also a bad year for us to try to get a great steal due to lack of QBs usually atleast 2 in top 10 and 3 in top 20.

2nd round is where all the trades for QBs are going to take place(Barkley, EJ Manuel, Nassib, Glennon, maybe even Tyler Wilson and Bray)

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