B.A.'s offense vs. Pep's offense.

[Narcosys]

Now I dont fully know the differences between these two, but I do know that BA used a lot of long vertical routes and long range passes vs the intermediate and short routes.  This proved to be effective. 

 

Pep's offense seems to be using short to intermediate routes, but other than that i do not know a lot about how he runs his offense. 

 

Some of you who are familiar with Pep's offense can you describe how he plans on implementing it with the Colts. 

 

Now I can not give a full judgement but i really liked BA's offense, i thought it was really effective and entertaining to watch.  I am wondering which is going to be more effective.  I am a little reserved and skeptical of if Pep's is going to work.  But he basically has half his team anyways so, we will see. 

 

So my basic question after all that is, what are the main differences and where can Pep's O be better than BA's O?

[TKnight24]

Pep's: More TE heavy plays. 2 TE sets. Shorter routes with a smashmouth running game. Clock controlling offense with low tolerance for turnovers.

If you go and watch a Stanford game when Luck, Whalen, & Fleener were there you'll get a better understanding of it. Not saying that we'll run the EXACT same thing play by play, but it'll give you an idea of what to expect

[Narcosys]

Pep's: More TE heavy plays. 2 TE sets. Shorter routes with a smashmouth running game. Clock controlling offense with low tolerance for turnovers.

If you go and watch a Stanford game when Luck, Whalen, & Fleener were there you'll get a better understanding of it. Not saying that we'll run the EXACT same thing play by play, but it'll give you an idea of what to expect

 

Ok, but are we going to have the capability to do the kind of run game that he likes.  I dont think so. 

[TKnight24]

Ok, but are we going to have the capability to do the kind of run game that he likes. I dont think so.

We're a RG & Shipley at C from doing so imo

[illdubb]

We're a RG & Shipley at C from doing so imo

 

How about a Warford and a Frederick/Schwenke? 

[Narcosys]

We're a RG & Shipley at C from doing so imo

 

If thats the case, then the biggest need in our draft will be O-line if we really want to help Pep in his new offense.

[TKnight24]

How about a Warford and a Frederick/Schwenke?

I'll take anyone who can come in & make a impact

[That Guy]

Pep and Pagano have both announced that they expect to add more vertical routes to the scheme Pep ran at Stanford.  I'm not sure game tape would really give you a good idea, anymore.

[TKnight24]

If thats the case, then the biggest need in our draft will be O-line if we really want to help Pep in his new offense.

Yes, but Defense could still use some work. Offense got their foundation in last year's draft.

[CR91]

i expect us to go to a more west coast offense with short and intermediate throws, but we'd be stupid not to include some deep balls with what we now have on the outside

[NewColtsFan]

Pep was only Stanford's OC for two years.    In the 2nd one, (post Andrew)  he didn't have a lot of talented pieces.   Had to do a lot of grinding on the college level that simply can't be done on the pro level.

 

So...   that's my way of saying I'm not sure Pep has an offense.    I think we're all going to find out together...

 

I'd say it's more West Coast than not.    But he's already said he wants to keep what Bruce did that works and add it to his offense. 

 

The beauty of the WCO is that you're always looking to gain some yardage.   Much fewer deep throws.   You're trying to avoid 2nd and 3rd down and long.     You want down/distance that allows you to do anything you want.   Among the many advantages is that the drives will take longer and allow you to rest your defense on the sidelines.   Over the course of a game and the course of a season,  that really adds up.

 

So,  there will be lots of 5-8 yard pass plays on 1st down setting up 2nd and short.   Now, you can run without worrying if you get the 1st down, because there's still 3rd and short where you still have the ability to run or pass for the 1st.   It just allows so many more possibilities. 

 

Then,  like the boxer who works the body until the opponent tires and then you go up to the head,  when you keep putting yourself in 2nd short,  you can then go deep...  and even if you miss,  you've got a down to play with....

 

Pep is still a big unknown to me....   Not even sure how much I'll buy in from the pre-season games....    but it should be very interesting to watch....    what will Pep do???

 

Sorry,  this probably went longer than anyone wanted....

[Narcosys]

Pep and Pagano have both announced that they expect to add more vertical routes to the scheme Pep ran at Stanford.  I'm not sure game tape would really give you a good idea, anymore.

 

 

Seems Pagano really liked what BA was doing and wants to keep a part of it and not completely change the offense to what the rookies are use to.

[TKnight24]

i expect us to go to a more west coast offense with short and intermediate throws, but we'd be stupid not to include some deep balls with what we now have on the outside

The WCO isn't all just short & intermediate routes. There's deep passes. Some seam routes off play action for the TE's. Or even go routes for the outside WR

[mvbighead]

Yes, but Defense could still use some work. Offense got their foundation in last year's draft.

 

You can't look at what we did in the draft last year and assume we'll do the opposite, other than the QB position.

 

As it is, we were deficient pretty much everywhere prior to last year's draft.  This year, we have some holes, but not as many as the year before.  They exist on both sides of the ball.  After the acquisition of DHB, I'd like to think there is a 50/50 chance of either offense or defense with the first pick.  G or DE/NT seem to be big needs, maybe ILB, maybe an additional CB to develop, or a safety to take over for Bethea when his contract expires.  But we could also add a RB, or G, or even a C.  Not to mention, we have done a lot this offseason in terms of FA.

[illdubb]

The biggest factor in Pep's hiring was Andrew being familiar with him. Grigs did things right when he hired Pep, because you don't want your rookie QB to change OC/Schemes in his sophomore season but we had to. This is part of Chuck wanting to keep some of the plays BA called last season. 

[#BringBobBack]

now that we signed DHB i think we get Eddie Lacy a powerful and talented running back in the first round and worry about o line like guard and a better center than shipley who cant get the ball close to lucks hands satele is solid with some injury recovery on his knee should be fine but drafting a center late would be a good idea and maybe a G in the third or fifth and a line backer in the other just my opinion on the situation brown and carter who i like much more than brown are both unreliable and ballard is back up at best in my opinion many may disagree but i think lacy would be a great pick insight and opinions of anybody would be great

[james_zeigler1994]

The only thing that is a problem is Shipley is undersized not weight but height he is only 6 foot 1  and bigger NT can bull right over him when they want to and that is going to be a problem if he don't get stronger not saying he isn't solid because he is but I saw him play live and against the Texans that will be a problem and all the teams have different sized NT so might need to draft somebody for the future thoughts?.

Edited April 2, 2013 by Superman
resized, please don't post in large font

[oldunclemark]

   We wont, cant and shouldnt be a smash mouth team

 

 

 

I dont think we change much of what Bruce Arians did...

 

What Stanford does wont  work in the NFL...with Colts personell

[CR91]

The WCO isn't all just short & intermediate routes. There's deep passes. Some seam routes off play action for the TE's. Or even go routes for the outside WR

I understand that but the majority of the plays are short and Intermediate with alot of power running

[Flash7]

Luck took plenty of deep shots in Pep's offense while at Stanford. It's just the frequency of deep passes that's the main difference. I suspect that with Luck's ability to read coverage and throw deep, we will still see quite a bit of deep passes; however, we will see a more controlled offense. An offense that will use the pass as an extension of the run game, screen passes, quick passes, and roll-outs for easier completions. The offense will be an easier way to keep the chains keep moving rather than gaining big "chunk" yards.

[oldunclemark]

You cant waste a first roiund pick on a running back when you have 2 who are capable..

now that we signed DHB i think we get Eddie Lacy a powerful and talented running back in the first round and worry about o line like guard and a better center than shipley who cant get the ball close to lucks hands satele is solid with some injury recovery on his knee should be fine but drafting a center late would be a good idea and maybe a G in the third or fifth and a line backer in the other just my opinion on the situation brown and carter who i like much more than brown are both unreliable and ballard is back up at best in my opinion many may disagree but i think lacy would be a great pick insight and opinions of anybody would be great

[illdubb]

now that we signed DHB i think we get Eddie Lacy a powerful and talented running back in the first round and worry about o line like guard and a better center than shipley who cant get the ball close to lucks hands satele is solid with some injury recovery on his knee should be fine but drafting a center late would be a good idea and maybe a G in the third or fifth and a line backer in the other just my opinion on the situation brown and carter who i like much more than brown are both unreliable and ballard is back up at best in my opinion many may disagree but i think lacy would be a great pick insight and opinions of anybody would be great

 

I think you're giving up on Vick way too soon to have Eddie Lacy share carries with him. He's good, and if he was available in the later rounds I would be all for it. But we have bigger needs to address right away than to draft RB in the first or second round. I agree that we need OL, and LB. Look at what Vick did last season with a mediocre O-line, give him a chance this season before you replace him/move him to #2. 

[#BringBobBack]

i like the faith maybe im too eager for a more known new face running the ball but  think on a more reasonable level jonathan cooper would be a great pick up for a guard with a 1st round pick

I think you're giving up on Vick way too soon to have Eddie Lacy share carries with him. He's good, and if he was available in the later rounds I would be all for it. But we have bigger needs to address right away than to draft RB in the first or second round. I agree that we need OL, and LB. Look at what Vick did last season with a mediocre O-line, give him a chance this season before you replace him/move him to #2. 

[hoosiercoltsfan82]

Simply put, I think that the ideal offense is one that can prolong a drive with short to intermediate passes and runs, but can also score the quick strike touchdown when needed.

 

 

[Narcosys]

Anyone seem to notice that nearly every topic turns into a draft topic?

[illdubb]

i like the faith maybe im too eager for a more known new face running the ball but  think on a more reasonable level jonathan cooper would be a great pick up for a guard with a 1st round pick

 

I think all of us Colts fans are eager for known faces on both sides of the ball because we are in rebuilding mode. I like Cooper, but I am not entirely sure he would fall to 24 as most scouts have him going in the teens. I'm all for trading down and picking up Warford and a couple extra draft picks.

[oldunclemark]

True Narc....

[BOTT]

Hate to say it, but Arians leaving for AZ was the best thing to happen to the colts this off-season.

[illdubb]

Hate to say it, but Arians leaving for AZ was the best thing to happen to the colts this off-season.

 

How so? 

[BOTT]

now that we signed DHB i think we get Eddie Lacy a powerful and talented running back in the first round and worry about o line like guard and a better center than shipley who cant get the ball close to lucks hands satele is solid with some injury recovery on his knee should be fine but drafting a center late would be a good idea and maybe a G in the third or fifth and a line backer in the other just my opinion on the situation brown and carter who i like much more than brown are both unreliable and ballard is back up at best in my opinion many may disagree but i think lacy would be a great pick insight and opinions of anybody would be great

My opinion

[throwing BBZ]

The biggest issue is will Andrew strengthen his arm and also become a much more accurate passer in the short to medium range.

 

at 13:15 M Irvin tells it like it is about Andrews typical S to M  pass last season.  Reachin' back, "Always a hard catch"

He said this AFTER the 1st drop of this workout. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e6isMB4H75U 

Andrew was uncanny last season hitting the back "hard to catch" shoulder. The source of MANY of our drops last season.

[NewColtsFan]

Hate to say it, but Arians leaving for AZ was the best thing to happen to the colts this off-season.

 

 

Well.....

 

You maybe right....   but I'd like to see how Pep does before deciding that....

 

I wasn't wild about Arians' overall offensive philosophy,  but he did a number of things incredibly well that the Colts will likely badly miss this year...

 

Either way,  we're going to find out....

[illdubb]

Did I miss something? Or when was Andrew's arm strength even questioned? As for accuracy: Didn't all them drops hurt his completion percentage as well as him having no time to throw? 

 

The biggest issue is will Andrew strengthen his arm and also become a much more accurate passer in the short to medium ranged

[chad72]

I expect a lot of misdirection plays with 2 TE/1 RB or 2 TE/1 FB/1 RB looks with rollouts and quick releases to wideouts in zones. It will still favor the passing game but the TE catches and FB/RB catches will increase. Then, off those rollouts will come run plays and play actions too. Of course, the traditional run plays are not going away.

 

However, don't be surprised if Luck lines up in pistol formations to throw some tweaks to our playbook.

[throwing BBZ]

The only thing that is a problem is Shipley is undersized not weight but height he is only 6 foot 1  and bigger NT can bull right over him when they want to and that is going to be a problem if he don't get stronger not saying he isn't solid because he is but I saw him play live and against the Texans that will be a problem and all the teams have different sized NT so might need to draft somebody for the future thoughts?.

 

 Shipley may have arm length that they find unacceptable long term.

 He is listed as an inch shorter and 14lbs heavier than Saturday. Saturdays strength was his ability to get under the pads of the big guys and anchor with his superbly stout legs. I think i saw similar ability with AQ.

 I do agree we Need to Draft a really good center prospect This Draft. Let him learn this new offense ASAP, b-cause Satelle isn`t our future.

[throwing BBZ]

Did I miss something? Or when was Andrew's arm strength even questioned? As for accuracy: Didn't all them drops hurt his completion percentage as well as him having no time to throw? 

 

 

Did I miss something? Or when was Andrew's arm strength even questioned? As for accuracy: Didn't all them drops hurt his completion percentage as well as him having no time to throw? 

 

 You clearly weren`t getting it when you watched the games. Hundreds of his passes were Back Shoulder late.

 When asked what he needed to work on going forward Andrew said, "arm strength and accuracy."  Not like it wasn`t Obvious every week.

 The whole Point of Irvins message. By consistently not throwing more accurately in front of his receivers he made All those throws HARD to catch.

 That is 100% on Luck.

[willysp]

Now I dont fully know the differences between these two, but I do know that BA used a lot of long vertical routes and long range passes vs the intermediate and short routes.  This proved to be effective. 

 

Pep's offense seems to be using short to intermediate routes, but other than that i do not know a lot about how he runs his offense. 

 

Some of you who are familiar with Pep's offense can you describe how he plans on implementing it with the Colts. 

 

Now I can not give a full judgement but i really liked BA's offense, i thought it was really effective and entertaining to watch.  I am wondering which is going to be more effective.  I am a little reserved and skeptical of if Pep's is going to work.  But he basically has half his team anyways so, we will see. 

 

So my basic question after all that is, what are the main differences and where can Pep's O be better than BA's O?

 

Really?  I don't remember it working too well with a weak O-line (causing moonballs) and teflon-handed receivers.

[james_zeigler1994]

Arm strength maybe a little but I do agree more with the accuracy yes I agree but I think that had a lot to do with the fact he had to throw the ball 50 times a game 30% of the time cause the team was playing from behind thoughts?.

[CS Colts Fan]

I think all of us Colts fans are eager for known faces on both sides of the ball because we are in rebuilding mode. I like Cooper, but I am not entirely sure he would fall to 24 as most scouts have him going in the teens. I'm all for trading down and picking up Warford and a couple extra draft picks.

yea warford and Collins for our pass rusher....  

[Superman]

Now I dont fully know the differences between these two, but I do know that BA used a lot of long vertical routes and long range passes vs the intermediate and short routes.  This proved to be effective. 

 

 

Now I can not give a full judgement but i really liked BA's offense, i thought it was really effective and entertaining to watch.

 

Our offense did a good job at a lot of things, but I wouldn't call it really effective. We were good on 3rd down, especially good on 3rd and long, and we had a lot of big yardage plays in the passing game. Outside of that, there was tons of room for improvement. Some of this is due to the fact that we had rookies all over the field and a makeshift offensive line, but some of it was also scheme.

 

For instance, I don't know what single stat is more important than points scored, and we were 18th with only 22.3 points/game. We had 27 turnovers, 18 interceptions. We were 22nd in total rushing yards, 26th in yards/carry. We were dead last in completion percentage (I didn't realize that). Gave up 41 sacks, 9th most in the league. We scored touchdowns on only 54.2% of our red zone trips, 17th in the league (the Redskins were 4th with 60.4%).

 

When it comes to efficiency and effectiveness, our offense was lacking, IMO. Some of that was personnel -- rookies, injuries, bad offensive line play -- but some of it was scheme. In a perfect world, your scheme minimizes your weaknesses and maximizes your best attributes. I think our scheme exacerbated our weaknesses, mostly because a) the route combinations often took long to get receivers open, and b) we didn't utilize our tight ends or backs in the passing game enough. If Hamilton's offense simply makes some tweaks to some of the passing concepts to get the ball out of Luck's hands a little faster, and if we make more of an effort to get the ball to the tight ends up the seam and to the backs in the flats, I think our efficiency would improve drastically.