WR Help - Why Not CRUZ

[CRASH]

I feel we will replace our WR spot with the Draft or Free Agency.  

 

Couple of Questions for you:

 

1. Trade our 1st for C. Cruz (I would think hard about doing it, its not proven we get a slam dunk at our 1st pick)

2. Pick up WR thru Free Agency (Who is left that you would pick up)

3. Just pick our WR with first pick of draft.

 

 

[Balzer40]

Give away our 1st for Victor Freaking Cruz. NO thank you. He's an average receiver and we do not need a WR. People, get this through your heads. If the Colts thought WR was a need even half as much as some of the fans do. They would have already brought one in. Maybe they'll draft one, but it's obvious they highly disagree with the assertion from fans that it's an immediate need.

[CR91]

i rather see what our other wrs can do. brazill kelley palmer whalen sambrano

[Everyone]

Give away our 1st for Victor Freaking Cruz. NO thank you. He's an average receiver and we do not need a WR. People, get this through your heads. If the Colts thought WR was a need even half as much as some of the fans do. They would have already brought one in. Maybe they'll draft one, but it's obvious they highly disagree with the assertion from fans that it's an immediate need.

out of likes!

[coltsfanatic24]

Better off drafting a WR.

[Valpo2004]

I feel we will replace our WR spot with the Draft or Free Agency.  

 

Couple of Questions for you:

 

1. Trade our 1st for C. Cruz (I would think hard about doing it, its not proven we get a slam dunk at our 1st pick)

2. Pick up WR thru Free Agency (Who is left that you would pick up)

3. Just pick our WR with first pick of draft.

 

Cruz isn't what I would think of as a #1 receiver.  He's a pretty good #2 though.  He tends to be a bit over-rated.  The Giants didn't want to show him the money and while they want him back, they where willing to take the risk of putting him on RFA.  And from what I hear no one has tendered him a bigger offer yet.

 

I'd rather get one in the draft.  

 

Give away our 1st for Victor Freaking Cruz. NO thank you. He's an average receiver and we do not need a WR. People, get this through your heads. If the Colts thought WR was a need even half as much as some of the fans do. They would have already brought one in. Maybe they'll draft one, but it's obvious they highly disagree with the assertion from fans that it's an immediate need.

 

Just because they havn't brought one in yet doesn't mean that they don't think of it as a need.  It's probably smart to get a #1 to replace Reggie in the future.  The only legit #1 receiver that even came to market was Jennings and he's older and has injury issues.  

 

But when our last WR#2 lead the league in drop rate, then that's a problem too.  

 

If we get RJF then our only real needs would be another guard and a WR.  And if we lost Reggie, we're pretty limited in the play maker department.  

[mvbighead]

Give away our 1st for Victor Freaking Cruz. NO thank you. He's an average receiver and we do not need a WR. People, get this through your heads. If the Colts thought WR was a need even half as much as some of the fans do. They would have already brought one in. Maybe they'll draft one, but it's obvious they highly disagree with the assertion from fans that it's an immediate need.

 

The draft hasn't even taken place yet, and you're proclaiming that they disagree with the fans?  That's ballsy even for someone who goes by Balzer.  

 

As for the notion of Cruz, no thanks.  Giving up a first round pick to then hand over a handsome salary doesn't make sense.  It's one or the other folks, why would we want to give up a chance to select a top 24 talent just so we can pay a guy 8-10 million a season (wild guess).  If we wanted to do that, we should have just gone after Wallace or Jennings.

[Valpo2004]

The draft hasn't even taken place yet, and you're proclaiming that they disagree with the fans?  That's ballsy even for someone who goes by Balzer.  

 

As for the notion of Cruz, no thanks.  Giving up a first round pick to then hand over a handsome salary doesn't make sense.  It's one or the other folks, why would we want to give up a chance to select a top 24 talent just so we can pay a guy 8-10 million a season (wild guess).  If we wanted to do that, we should have just gone after Wallace or Jennings.

 

That's another good point.  Draft a WR and he's under the rookie salary cap and we have him for 4 to 5 million a year, maybe less for his first 4 years.  (Blackmon's contract maxes out at 5.89 million against the cap and he was selected way higher then 24.)  You go get Cruz and he's gonna want a 10 million dollar contract or close.  

[mvbighead]

That's another good point.  Draft a WR and he's under the rookie salary cap and we have him for 4 to 5 million a year, maybe less for his first 3 years.  (Blackmon's contract maxes out at 5.89 million against the cap and he was selected way higher then 24.)  You go get Cruz and he's gonna want a 10 million dollar contract or close.  

 

Actually, i think at #24, it's closer to 2 million per year I believe.

[Balzer40]

The draft hasn't even taken place yet, and you're proclaiming that they disagree with the fans?  That's ballsy even for someone who goes by Balzer.  

 

As for the notion of Cruz, no thanks.  Giving up a first round pick to then hand over a handsome salary doesn't make sense.  It's one or the other folks, why would we want to give up a chance to select a top 24 talent just so we can pay a guy 8-10 million a season (wild guess).  If we wanted to do that, we should have just gone after Wallace or Jennings.

 

 

 

Well I said they may draft a WR. If WR was as big of a need that many of the fans proclaim it is, we would have brought one in already. We could still bring in a low level free agent WR, but many of the fans aren't going to be happy with that either. Free agency is used to fill the biggest holes and we haven't even talked to a WR according to some of the Colts "insiders". It was reported we were interested in Jenning's but that was shot down by Mike Chappel.

[Valpo2004]

Actually, i think at #24, it's closer to 2 million per year I believe.

 

You are right, I actually thought it depended on position but I was looking at Decastro (#24), Weeden (#22), Jenkins (#30) and Reiff (#23) from last year and it doesn't appear to matter what position you play.

 

But at #24 DeCastro maxes out at 2.1 against the cap.  

[mvbighead]

Well I said they may draft a WR. If WR was as big of a need that many of the fans proclaim it is, we would have brought one in already. We could still bring in a low level free agent WR, but many of the fans aren't going to be happy with that either. Free agency is used to fill the biggest holes and we haven't even talked to a WR according to some of the Colts "insiders". It was reported we were interested in Jenning's but that was shot down by Mike Chappel.

 

To me, Luck is young.  Wayne is going to start, we know that.  Hilton is a sure up and comer.  We still have a need at WR that can be filled by a rookie who can develop behind (or across from) Wayne.  Drafting a rookie, at least to me, makes sense.  If he pans out, we'd likely have him for 10 years.

 

Of course, DE or G also make sense, but I think there will be a handful of late first round options at WR when we're up.  Hopkins looks like one who could be something good.

[CRASH]

I am game either way, and to be honest I was bored and thought I would throw it out there just to see what you all were thinking on the WR position.  I do feel it is a need but its a lower priority with the other positions of need.  

[Luck_Is_Skilled]

Trading our 1st kills some of our flexibility. I'd rather sign an average-above average contributor on the cheap and continue to develop Brazill.

[Balzer40]

To me, Luck is young.  Wayne is going to start, we know that.  Hilton is a sure up and comer.  We still have a need at WR that can be filled by a rookie who can develop behind (or across from) Wayne.  Drafting a rookie, at least to me, makes sense.  If he pans out, we'd likely have him for 10 years.

 

Of course, DE or G also make sense, but I think there will be a handful of late first round options at WR when we're up.  Hopkins looks like one who could be something good.

 

 

 

I think we'll draft a WR, but I'm not sure it will be in the 1st rd..

[ColtsFreak]

We do need a solid # 2 . I wouldn't give up a 1st rounder for Cruz though.  If for example we got Jennings(wishful thinking) That would force defenses to leave him,reg,ty,and fleener or allen in single coverage which reg and jennings would have a field day in.Hence making us a deep playoff threat. I have no idea what grigson gonna do but, If we really want to compete against the bronco's and other great teams we can't rely on just reggie and possibly Ty for our only real WR threats. The others in my opinion are a bunch of #4's. I could be wrong. I just don't see brazill or whalen or someone else in that lower tier having a higher ceiling.

[Wesk7]

I would like a NYG wr but not Cruz. Bring in Barden for cheap. Then draft someone with potential maybe later in the draft.

[Wesk7]

Next year might be the year to draft wr in the 1st.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

People, get this through your heads. If the Colts thought WR was a need even half as much as some of the fans do. They would have already brought one in...it's obvious they highly disagree with the assertion from fans that it's an immediate need.

 

Yeah, it would appear so.

 

Just because they havn't brought one in yet doesn't mean that they don't think of it as a need.

 

  Some people just argue in order to argue.

 

I think we'll draft a WR, but I'm not sure it will be in the 1st rd..

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we grabbed one. I'll be disappointed if they grab one in the 1st.  

 

1. Trade our 1st for C. Cruz (I would think hard about doing it, its not proven we get a slam dunk at our 1st pick)

 

I would not trade our 1 for Cruz. I like him but the market right now is telling the RFA that he is not worth what he would think he is worth. The Welker deal should squash his dreams of a pay day with the Giants. I'm not so sure that has sunk in and he'd probably still try to cash in with us.

 

 

2. Pick up WR thru Free Agency (Who is left that you would pick up)

 

At the right price. Greg Jennings intrigues me. But apparently not too many NFL GMs.

 

 

3. Just pick our WR with first pick of draft.

 

THAT would be IMO a mistake. Unless some guy just falls very far on some baseless rumor, I'd rather go O&Dline, LBs more than Offensive weapons this go'round. ;)

[Valpo2004]

I think we'll draft a WR, but I'm not sure it will be in the 1st rd..

 

If there is a WR with first round talent available I hope they grab him.  We're gonna need a #1 and you arn't likely to get a #1 in the 3rd round.  (Maybe a #2 but not a #1).  Get someone Luck can build some chemistry with for a long time.  And we could use a play-maker.

 

You can probably still get a decent starting guard in the 3rd round.  That solves our starting lineup for next year.  

 

Then you just grab depth in the later rounds.  

 

I will say that I don't want to reach for any position.  If you can't get a WR that grades out as a 1st round talent, get a guard, if you can't get a guard that grades out as a first round talent, then trade down or maybe get a pass rusher.  (I still think the weakness of this defense is that lack of pass rushers.)

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Next year might be the year to draft wr in the 1st.

 

Yeah. I haven't looked to see how 2014 projects out talent-wise. But from our perspective, I don't think WR is a big enough need to warrant a 1 in 2013.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

If there is a WR with first round talent available I hope they grab him.  We're gonna need a #1 and you arn't likely to get a #1 in the 3rd round.  (Maybe a #2 but not a #1).  Get someone Luck can build some chemistry with for a long time.  And we could use a play-maker.

 

An indicator would be to look and see how Hamilton and Stanford staffed their WR corps. I have not done so. They may be very important and maybe not so much. A west coast offense tends to be dink & dunk, so a typical WR "playmaker" may not be in the cards for us. Not satying it isn't, just saying.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

To me, Luck is young.  Wayne is going to start, we know that.  Hilton is a sure up and comer.  We still have a need at WR that can be filled by a rookie who can develop behind (or across from) Wayne.  Drafting a rookie, at least to me, makes sense. 

 

Ehhh THAT kinda makes no sense. We have LaVon Brazill waiting in the wings. Can he not get the opportunity to develop behind (or across from) Wayne?

[mvbighead]

Ehhh THAT kinda makes no sense. We have LaVon Brazill waiting in the wings. Can he not get the opportunity to develop behind (or across from) Wayne?

 

Can you tell me how that makes no sense?

 

Brazill was behind Avery who we let go.  He could still be the answer, but given that Avery was just 1 year stop gap, I'd have figured Brazill would've been given a shot (ala Ballard or Hilton) to earn a starting position.  I still think Brazill can be good, but I think we could upgrade there.

 

We drafted Edge and Wayne 1 and 3 years after Manning respectively.  Wayne got to play across from Marvin for a lot of years before he took over as our number 1.  We don't have any assurance that we'll have Wayne beyond 3 years.  If we want to upgrade at WR, it'd be a good idea to get a young guy in to learn from Wayne.  IE - Wayne does his thing as he always does, and the rookie picks up on his good habits and uses them to create the kind of success that Wayne has.

 

It's a logical thought, IMO.

[Nobody]

Unlike most I think we still need another WR. That guy shouldn't cost a huge contract and a first rounder.

[jvan1973]

we will get another wr. but it won't be a first rounder

[NewColtsFan]

An indicator would be to look and see how Hamilton and Stanford staffed their WR corps. I have not done so. They may be very important and maybe not so much. A west coast offense tends to be dink & dunk, so a typical WR "playmaker" may not be in the cards for us. Not satying it isn't, just saying.

 

I wouldn't read too much into Stanford's WR corp.   WR and CB are two positions traditionally tough for Stanford to recruit.

 

We've thrown a lot to our tight ends in the last few years because we didn't have great WR's.   

 

What we've had recently are Owusu (who was decent but injury prone) and the two Whalen's (who were also decent but walk-ons)   and some of our 4-star WR's didn't pan out for reasons that are still not clear.

 

In other words,  don't look to Stanford for clues as to what the Colts will do.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Can you tell me how that makes no sense?

 

I mean I just did but okay, you might've missed it.

 

You said...

 

 

We still have a need at WR that can be filled by a rookie who can develop behind (or across from) Wayne.  Drafting a rookie, at least to me, makes sense.

 

We have a 2nd year WR (drafted WITH Andrew Luck), LaVon Brazill who is 23 years old, 5'11" 195 lbs and runs a 4.4. He is a great route runner (who just sat at the feet of Reggie Wayne last year). He's quick & explosive off the line. He can sink his hips at the top of routes and change up his speed to keep defenders off-balance. He's got strong hands and he's not a fumbling threat. He extends the field and is a threat to blow the top off of a defense not because of his speed, but his ability to stick a foot in the ground and jump off one leg at full speed and extend.

 

So....WHY....would I need a rookie to develop into the 1 or 2 when I already have a guy doing that right now? That is why what you proposed doesn't really make sense. Now, if we want to grab a FA. Cool. Or even some depth. Fine. But IMO Grigson isn't trying to throw away a draft pick in Brazill in order to waste another pick trying to do what is already being accomplished by Brazill.

 

Sorry. IMO we already have our starting WRs on the roster.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I wouldn't read too much into Stanford's WR corp.   WR and CB are two positions traditionally tough for Stanford to recruit.

 

Really? I did not know that. To what do you attribute that to? Is it "Offensive philosophy" or just can't land the blue chip recruits?

 

We've thrown a lot to our tight ends in the last few years because we didn't have great WR's.   

 

What we've had recently are Owusu (who was decent but injury prone) and the two Whalen's (who were also decent but walk-ons)   and some of our 4-star WR's didn't pan out for reasons that are still not clear.

 

In other words,  don't look to Stanford for clues as to what the Colts will do.

 

Gotcha.

[mvbighead]

I mean I just did but okay, you might've missed it.

 

You said...

 

 

 

We have a 2nd year WR (drafted WITH Andrew Luck), LaVon Brazill who is 23 years old, 5'11" 195 lbs and runs a 4.4. He is a great route runner (who just sat at the feet of Reggie Wayne last year). He's quick & explosive off the line. He can sink his hips at the top of routes and change up his speed to keep defenders off-balance. He's got strong hands and he's not a fumbling threat. He extends the field and is a threat to blow the top off of a defense not because of his speed, but his ability to stick a foot in the ground and jump off one leg at full speed and extend.

 

So....WHY....would I need a rookie to develop into the 1 or 2 when I already have a guy doing that right now? That is why what you proposed doesn't really make sense. Now, if we want to grab a FA. Cool. Or even some depth. Fine. But IMO Grigson isn't trying to throw away a draft pick in Brazill in order to waste another pick trying to do what is already being accomplished by Brazill.

 

Sorry. IMO we already have our starting WRs on the roster.

 

If it works out that way, great.  I too hope that Brazill can be a guy for us.  But, in two years, we're left with Hilton and Brazill, maybe Whalen.  To me, I see Hilton as our field stretcher.  He needs to stay fresh to maintain his elite explosiveness to stretch the field for us.  He could very well be our #1 or #2, but his size is a bit small to use as a blocker when we run, which would lead me to believe we need an option there.

 

If, in two years, we had a starting receiving corps of Brazill, Hopkins (just a guess), and Hilton, I'd think we have a guy with great speed, and a guy that is a good route runner with the size to be an every down receiver who can aid in the rush game.  Keep bringing in Hilton on 50% or more of the snaps to stretch the field and give him time off between, but get 1 guy who is a sure talent to develop with Wayne for 2-3 years.

 

I think you could be right, and they simply think that highly of Brazill and Hilton right now, and that'd be fine.  I just figure if Brazill was a threat, they'd have used him more than the 10-15 times they did.  He looks like he could be legit, but we're still going to need to develop another WR sooner or later.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

If we want to upgrade at WR, it'd be a good idea to get a young guy in to learn from Wayne.  IE - Wayne does his thing as he always does, and the rookie picks up on his good habits and uses them to create the kind of success that Wayne has.

 

It's a logical thought, IMO.

 

You know, now that I give it more thought you're right. Another kid to come in and learn (assuming Brazill takes over the 2) and eventually move over to 2 when Reggie retires isn't a bad idea.

 

I think I took your orignal thoughts to mean we needed a rookie to come in and be the 2. My bad.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I think you could be right, and they simply think that highly of Brazill and Hilton right now, and that'd be fine.  I just figure if Brazill was a threat, they'd have used him more than the 10-15 times they did.

 

Ehhh I think his reps had more to do with the fact that we'd just signed Avery and weren't about to waste that money. The 2 was his from the day we signed him (as much as the Collie-trolls hate to admit that). And nobody was going to unseat him unless he got injured.

[mvbighead]

You know, now that I give it more thought you're right. Another kid to come in and learn (assuming Brazill takes over the 2) and eventually move over to 2 when Reggie retires isn't a bad idea.

 

I think I took your orignal thoughts to mean we needed a rookie to come in and be the 2. My bad.

 

I guess I could see it either way, depending on where they are at with Brazill.  He could need more development, he could be good to go.  I just figure outside of Hilton and Brazil, we're still short one guy to either be the #1 or #2.  I like Hilton, but his size is a big part of the reason he wasn't an every down receiver.  That could change, and they can work around it, but I just figure you need a couple guys outside that can hold up a 5-11/200lb CB.  I just don't see a 5-9 183lber doing a good job on jams.

[mvbighead]

Ehhh I think his reps had more to do with the fact that we'd just signed Avery and weren't about to waste that money. The 2 was his from the day we signed him (as much as the Collie-trolls hate to admit that). And nobody was going to unseat him unless he got injured.

 

Avery was on a 1 year piddly deal.  I can't find the figures, but it wasn't much, and he was just someone who could give us speed cheaply.  We have more invested in Brazill by way of a draft pick, and I'd figure if he was doing equal or better than Avery, he'd get the nod.

 

I just hope he can take over this year.  If they nab a DE in the 1st, that'd be great, or an OG as well.  But I still think WR is a viable option both for now and the future in the 1st round of this draft, regardless of how Brazill turns out.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

Delete - thought you were talking about Brazill.

[Dr. T]

We will absolutely take a WR in this draft. I just don't think it will be in the first round. We'll see ...

[mvbighead]

Not according to this:

http://www.nfl.com/player/t.y.hilton/2532865/profile

 

Or this:

http://www.rotoworld.com/player/nfl/7558/ty-hilton

 

Or this:

http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=86771&draftyear=2012&genpos=WR

 

Or this:

http://www.nfl.com/draft/2011/profiles/t.y.-hilton?id=2532865

 

The last one suggests he has a problem blocking in the run game.  Now, I don't see a problem with him getting a bunch of snaps, other than his explosiveness will wear down across the season.  And that, to me, is his biggest attribute.

[HarassedOffTheSite]

I'd figure if he was doing equal or better than Avery, he'd get the nod.

 

Right. But he was a rookie. There was NO WAY he would've done equal to or better than Donnie. Avery is faster and if anything ran routes just as good. And remember, his speed is the only thing that mattered to B.A. he was the Wallace-clone speedwise that fit B.A.s scheme. Like I said, nobody was going to unseat him. And if B.A. was still our OCoordinator, Avery would more than likely still be here. But now that Pep has taken over and a new scheme come in, things have changed. Now, we're a run to set up the pass team. And when we do pass, most of the time it'll be short to intermediate routes. We've gone from apples to oranges vis-a-vis WRs.

 

I just hope he can take over this year.  If they nab a DE in the 1st, that'd be great, or an OG as well.  But I still think WR is a viable option both for now and the future in the 1st round of this draft, regardless of how Brazill turns out.

 

I hear you.

[USAFHoosier]

At this point I believe its going to be BPA in the first except for QB, OT, and TE.

[FearTheNeckBeard]

a guy who play on the outside and it's not a smurf would be nice for Luck. We saw what happened in the playoff game, playing redzone offense with smurfs is difficult, and no running game will make you lose games.