Do You Think The Tampa 2 Is Old And Exploited?

[StaticColt77]

Or do we just not have the personnel for it anymore?

People have figured it out, I remember Sean Payton was mic'd up during a practice or on the sidelines, and said something like. "Don't worry, we have plenty of Tampa 2 beaters in the playbook" to Drew Brees or the offense.

I know there are always plays made to beat certain defensive packages or schemes, but I'm starting to think that the weakness of the Tampa 2 or base cover 2 D are too apparent and well known by teams across the league.

I think we can still rush the pass, but it's all to easy for the QB to roll out the pocket and make plays. We've seen it so far this season, and ALLL preseason. And the fact that we are handicapped at the corner position, because QB's don't even have to ground it or throw it away under pressure, they just have to throw it towards Lacey.

Do you think it's because of the cushion? And us letting them get 3-5yd passes rather than 10-15yd passes?

What are your thoughts?

[Andy]

YES!!! We get beat everytime we use it. It's always the 5 yard passes. We need to change it, but the coaches are too stupid to realize it.

[StaticColt77]

^^^^ You have no idea how much it frustrates me, when I feel I can predict things that Coyer seemingly cannot...

that cushioning crap should be situational, and not nearly every down. We also don't take enough risk, something good defenses do.

[deedub75]

It hasn't worked in years. It's more apparant now since we have zero offense to cover for the defense.

[Smitto]

Yes it is, but ppl need to understand the colts DONT run a pure tampa 2... they run the 46 sometimes they do alot of schemes and try alot of things.. this year you are seeing alot of blitzing.

One thing ppl complain about is the colts CB's playing off, well guess who likes to play off the wr's.... ASSANTE SAMUEL, point is its not the coaches or the scheme its the players... look at bryan urlacher with the bears they ran a tampa 2 and look at them they were a great defense thats cause they had the players. if a better corner played you would see better production... powers is a good CB but lacey is not so good on the outside at all..... And THAT is the issue NOT THE SCHEME!

[chad72]

We play a lot of Cover 1 and sometimes, we do Cover 3 as well. We need a draft like 2005 where we got Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden in back to back picks, get the CBs we need to get more physical on the backend thus demoting Lacey to nickel or dime at best. Plus, hopefully one more year for Kevin Thomas and he can make that jump next year since he has the size to be productive in the NFL. Powers would be a great #2 if we can get an outstanding #1 CB. Then, having the option to use Tryon, Thomas or Lacey in the nickel/dime would be nice to have.

[Smitto]

We play a lot of Cover 1 and sometimes, we do Cover 3 as well. We need a draft like 2005 where we got Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden in back to back picks, get the CBs we need to get more physical on the backend thus demoting Lacey to nickel or dime at best. Plus, hopefully one more year for Kevin Thomas and he can make that jump next year since he has the size to be productive in the NFL. Powers would be a great #2 if we can get an outstanding #1 CB. Then, having the option to use Tryon, Thomas or Lacey in the nickel/dime would be nice to have.

I think the colts do have those players in rucker and kevin.. the only reason i dont see them getting that much playing time is cause of their draft position.. does anyone know why kevin was inactive for the browns game anyway? was he injured?

[Case]

One thing ppl complain about is the colts CB's playing off, well guess who likes to play off the wr's.... ASSANTE SAMUEL, point is its not the coaches or the scheme its the players... look at bryan urlacher with the bears they ran a tampa 2 and look at them they were a great defense thats cause they had the players. if a better corner played you would see better production... powers is a good CB but lacey is not so good on the outside at all..... And THAT is the issue NOT THE SCHEME!

Nailed it.

[chad72]

I think the colts do have those players in rucker and kevin.. the only reason i dont see them getting that much playing time is cause of their draft position.. does anyone know why kevin was inactive for the browns game anyway? was he injured?

Lacey is a UDFA and Tryon was originally a 4th rounder. The main reason they are not starting is that they are still thinking and reacting while playing and may not be up to speed, that would be my guess as opposed to their draft position.

[chad72]

I think the colts do have those players in rucker and kevin.. the only reason i dont see them getting that much playing time is cause of their draft position.. does anyone know why kevin was inactive for the browns game anyway? was he injured?

Lacey was a UDFA and Tryon was originally a 4th rounder. The main reason that Rucker and Thomas are not starting is that they are still thinking and reacting while playing and may not be up to speed, that would be my guess as opposed to their draft position.

[Smitto]

Lacey was a UDFA and Tryon was originally a 4th rounder. The main reason that Rucker and Thomas are not starting is that they are still thinking and reacting while playing and may not be up to speed, that would be my guess as opposed to their draft position.

Yeaaaa that could be true..... or it may be another reason, you never know with the colts.

[OLD FAN MAN]

Or do we just not have the personnel for it anymore?

People have figured it out, I remember Sean Payton was mic'd up during a practice or on the sidelines, and said something like. "Don't worry, we have plenty of Tampa 2 beaters in the playbook" to Drew Brees or the offense.

I know there are always plays made to beat certain defensive packages or schemes, but I'm starting to think that the weakness of the Tampa 2 or base cover 2 D are too apparent and well known by teams across the league.

I think we can still rush the pass, but it's all to easy for the QB to roll out the pocket and make plays. We've seen it so far this season, and ALLL preseason. And the fact that we are handicapped at the corner position, because QB's don't even have to ground it or throw it away under pressure, they just have to throw it towards Lacey.

Do you think it's because of the cushion? And us letting them get 3-5yd passes rather than 10-15yd passes?

What are your thoughts?

we have 5'9" cbs going against 6'3" receivers who are fast , no we dont have the talent to play any defense

[Betty27_1]

Could someone explain to me what the Tampa 2 is. And how long it's been used if so many teams are beating it.

[Jason_]

I've had the feeling for a long time that the Tampa 2 scheme was a big part of the issues we have. I re-watched the Colts/Browns game and categorized every single play where we were on defense and the results the of the Browns offense. The detailed breakdown is in this thread:

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/1814-coaching-to-blame-for-majority-of-defensive-issues-today/page__p__34768__fromsearch__1#entry34768

The problem isn't necessarily the scheme itself, but rather the misuse of it. Every time we dropped the MLB into deep zone coverage on 1st or 2nd down on a passing play, the Browns completed a pass to the tune of 8/8 for 68 yards. It was only used 3 times on 3rd down, I imagine mostly because the 3rd downs were mostly 3rd and short, but on the longer 3rd downs it was very effective. Against the Tampa 2 on 3rd down McCoy was 1/3 for 8 yards.

Also, we do not run a 4-6 defense. ;) We often times bring a safety into the "box" but this doesn't mean it's a 4-3 defense. A lot of 4-3 teams bring a safety into the box on running downs. See the image below for a diagram of the base 4-6 formation. Notice the WILL and SAM LB's both line up on the same side. I don't know that I've ever seen the Colts line up that way. They will sometimes bring the SAM or WILL closer to the middle and bring that side's safety down into the area the LB has vacated.

As for the Bears, I think they call the defense the way it should be called...more of a cover 2 on 1st and 2nd and if they actually do run the tampa 2 and drop the MLB into deep zone then it's only on 3rd down. You don't see them get gashed on plays in the center of the field in the 3-5 yard area. Coyer's biggest problem is that he doesn't seem to get this. The Tampa 2 is basically designed to prevent a big play...use it on 3rd and long and that's fine. A 9 yard completion still is considered a win because you prevented a first down. Do it on first down though and all of a sudden you're in a 2nd and 2. Basically this has lead to being in way too many 2nd and 3rd and very short yardage.

[Jason_]

Could someone explain to me what the Tampa 2 is. And how long it's been used if so many teams are beating it.

The term Tampa 2 was coined based on the defense created by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin in Tampa Bay. It's a variation of the standard cover 2. Honestly, the image posted in the initial post is kind of confusing.

Here is an image that shows what the standard cover 2 zone looks like

Here is a decent image to show the Tampa 2 in regards to the changes in the zone coverage. What it doesn't show is how the DL lines up.

The difference in coverage is that in the standard cover 2, the 3 LB's each cover 1/3 of the field in the area 5-10ish yards from the LOS. In the Tampa 2, the MLB drops into deep zone coverage with the 2 safeties. Dungy and Kiffin also altered the way the DL lines up in attempt to try to create mismatches with your best pass rushers.

If the other team's offense is in a long yardage situation then it can be a very effective defense. On 1st and 2nd downs though I just don't get it. I wish I had some of those old Tampa games to watch and see if they dropped their MLB into deep zone as much as the Colts do.

Basically the point is to "bend but don't break" meaning they really don't care how many yards they give up as long as they don't give up points. Dungy and Kiffin also believed in giving up strength and size to go with players who were a little smaller but much quicker. In Tampa, the defense was a little undersized but when Dungy came here it just got ridiculous.

The problem we keep getting beat is because, as I said before, they're running it on 1st and 2nd downs. When the Tampa 2 is called, the MLB immediately runs backwards to get in deep zone if it's a pass play. This leaves the 3-8 yard area in the middle of the field wide open. The other teams are running short, crossing routes with their speedy receivers and by the time then the MLB has to run back forwards and try to make the tackle.

Also consider that these short routes take very little time to develop. Run a quick slant and the QB can essentially take a 1-3 step drop and get rid of the ball very quickly, which gives Freeney and Mathis that much less time to get to the QB. If they'd run the Cover 2 on these downs then the holes in the zone open up in the 8-12ish yard range so it takes a little longer for the receiver to get behind the LB so the DE's have more time to get to the QB and try to make the sack.

[OLD FAN MAN]

The term Tampa 2 was coined based on the defense created by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin in Tampa Bay. It's a variation of the standard cover 2. Honestly, the image posted in the initial post is kind of confusing.

Here is an image that shows what the standard cover 2 zone looks like

Here is a decent image to show the Tampa 2 in regards to the changes in the zone coverage. What it doesn't show is how the DL lines up.

The difference in coverage is that in the standard cover 2, the 3 LB's each cover 1/3 of the field in the area 5-10ish yards from the LOS. In the Tampa 2, the MLB drops into deep zone coverage with the 2 safeties. Dungy and Kiffin also altered the way the DL lines up in attempt to try to create mismatches with your best pass rushers.

If the other team's offense is in a long yardage situation then it can be a very effective defense. On 1st and 2nd downs though I just don't get it. I wish I had some of those old Tampa games to watch and see if they dropped their MLB into deep zone as much as the Colts do.

Basically the point is to "bend but don't break" meaning they really don't care how many yards they give up as long as they don't give up points. Dungy and Kiffin also believed in giving up strength and size to go with players who were a little smaller but much quicker. In Tampa, the defense was a little undersized but when Dungy came here it just got ridiculous.

it worked in tampa with the players they had,but it wont work with average skill players like we have, as we have shown by our bad defense

[Jason_]

it worked in tampa with the players they had,but it wont work with average skill players like we have, as we have shown by our bad defense

I think a Cover 2 defense would work well and, if necessary, use the tampa 2 on 3rd and long situations only. There is a definite difference in the level of talent the Tampa defense had...their entire starting lineup consisted of 4 first round picks, 1 second round pick, 3 third round picks, 2 fourth round picks and one guy they signed from the CFL.

Our current defense consists of 1 first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third, 2 fifths, 1 sixth, 1 seventh and 3 UDFA's. Keeping this in mind, I think our current defense is doing rather well.

[OLD FAN MAN]

I think a Cover 2 defense would work well and, if necessary, use the tampa 2 on 3rd and long situations only. There is a definite difference in the level of talent the Tampa defense had...their entire starting lineup consisted of 4 first round picks, 1 second round pick, 3 third round picks, 2 fourth round picks and one guy they signed from the CFL.

Our current defense consists of 1 first rounder, 2 second rounders, 1 third, 2 fifths, 1 sixth, 1 seventh and 3 UDFA's. Keeping this in mind, I think our current defense is doing rather well.

i see that you do a lot of study of the team, and you like our defense, but why cant we shut other teams down? i would think more of your opinion than the coaches because you study the team so much and i mean this

[John Waylon]

Teams have learned how to exploit it, and it's gone out of style.

We just haven't figured that out yet because Peyton has been there to bail us out.

[Betty27_1]

The term Tampa 2 was coined based on the defense created by Tony Dungy and Monte Kiffin in Tampa Bay. It's a variation of the standard cover 2. Honestly, the image posted in the initial post is kind of confusing.

Here is an image that shows what the standard cover 2 zone looks like

Here is a decent image to show the Tampa 2 in regards to the changes in the zone coverage. What it doesn't show is how the DL lines up.

The difference in coverage is that in the standard cover 2, the 3 LB's each cover 1/3 of the field in the area 5-10ish yards from the LOS. In the Tampa 2, the MLB drops into deep zone coverage with the 2 safeties. Dungy and Kiffin also altered the way the DL lines up in attempt to try to create mismatches with your best pass rushers.

If the other team's offense is in a long yardage situation then it can be a very effective defense. On 1st and 2nd downs though I just don't get it. I wish I had some of those old Tampa games to watch and see if they dropped their MLB into deep zone as much as the Colts do.

Basically the point is to "bend but don't break" meaning they really don't care how many yards they give up as long as they don't give up points. Dungy and Kiffin also believed in giving up strength and size to go with players who were a little smaller but much quicker. In Tampa, the defense was a little undersized but when Dungy came here it just got ridiculous.

The problem we keep getting beat is because, as I said before, they're running it on 1st and 2nd downs. When the Tampa 2 is called, the MLB immediately runs backwards to get in deep zone if it's a pass play. This leaves the 3-8 yard area in the middle of the field wide open. The other teams are running short, crossing routes with their speedy receivers and by the time then the MLB has to run back forwards and try to make the tackle.

Also consider that these short routes take very little time to develop. Run a quick slant and the QB can essentially take a 1-3 step drop and get rid of the ball very quickly, which gives Freeney and Mathis that much less time to get to the QB. If they'd run the Cover 2 on these downs then the holes in the zone open up in the 8-12ish yard range so it takes a little longer for the receiver to get behind the LB so the DE's have more time to get to the QB and try to make the sack.

Thanks for explaining it. I love watching Football, but I couldn't explain what each play means to save my life. So basically Tampa 2 is only good if it's a pass play, but if it's a running play then it's worthless?

[Rich Cannon]

YES!!! We get beat everytime we use it. It's always the 5 yard passes. We need to change it, but the coaches are too stupid to realize it.

Yea if we played cover 2 like the giants who play man with their corners and blitz more we would see better results.

[oldunclemark]

Guys I think with he rules the way they are..you almost have to run some form of the 'tampa 2'

there are guys who are no longer coverable within the rules...indoors

I dont think even Revis would do as well with the Jets if he covered the top receivers one on one every play twice a year.....with little to no saftey help

I also appreciate Jason....

I did not know the exact difference between a 'Cover 2' and a 'Tampa 2'

I thought it was different terminology for the same thing...

[oldunclemark]

Yea if we played cover 2 like the giants who play man with their corners and blitz more we would see better results.

Rich ..I dont understand why..

..with our philosophy not to blitz....and let our ends come hard every play

why our corners play so soft..?

Our corners can get beat deep because, in throery, we have 2 deep safeties and a LB in the middle...and our ends will get to the passer...

I like our D when we 'press' the WRs

[Jason_]

i see that you do a lot of study of the team, and you like our defense, but why cant we shut other teams down? i would think more of your opinion than the coaches because you study the team so much and i mean this

Well I really appreciate that, thank you. Honestly it all started when I got sick of listening to what the so called "experts" say about our defense AND all of the "there are problems but they can be fixed" responses from the coaches. I honestly wasn't sure whether the problem was more related to the scheme itself, the players or the coaches so I decided to set out and try to find the answers for myself.

Why can't we shut other teams down? A lot of it, imo, has to do with improperly using the tampa 2. It can be effective at times but is not a first or second down defense unless a penalty/sack has forced the offense into very long yardage. Also the majority of our front 7, with the exception of Freeny, was built by bringing in late round draft picks and UDFA's whereas the a team like the '02 Bucs built their defense with mostly 1-4 round draft picks. See the thread I created comparing the '11 colts defense, the '06 colts defense and the '02 bucs defense. Also, the Bucs defense that year was considered undersized, but the '06 colts defense that Dungy built made the Bucs defense look like giants.

We are definitely getting closer to a point where we can actually be considered a formidable defense. Add a few more pieces to the puzzle they've spent the past 3 years putting together and couple that with better defensive playcalling and....well I think people will be pleasantly surprised.

Thanks for explaining it. I love watching Football, but I couldn't explain what each play means to save my life. So basically Tampa 2 is only good if it's a pass play, but if it's a running play then it's worthless?

No problem. I didn't really start to dive in and figure out what the differences were in the cover 2 and tampa 2 until this past year. As for your question, no that's not entirely true but apparently that's what Coyer thinks. lol I went into further explanation on the tampa 2 above.

Yea if we played cover 2 like the giants who play man with their corners and blitz more we would see better results.

I agree...and if you watch the Browns game closely they actually did do this a lot more. The Colts got good pressure on McCoy several times but he's so elusive they couldn't get him down for the sack. However that pressure led to, I'll just say "risky" throws that could have been picked off if we had a better starting CB duo.

Melvin is not as good as a former Defensive Player of the Year? You are the master of the obvious. lol

Nobody doubts how great Bob is when he is healthy. The problem with Bob was he just could not stay healthy and that is the only reason he is gone.

Melvin is a solid back up that is forced into a starter role because the starter could not stay healthy and we had to part ways. He is just not the long term answer there at SS.

Agreed

This thread is from the 'asking too much' department...

L O L...definitely agree.

[chad72]

We should have tested Colt McCoy with even more blitzing and hope that the young QB makes a mistake or two, I would have liked to see that. Big Ben, we probably need to do that, otherwise he will be completing passes getting out of the pocket all day.

[tikyle]

It is so funny how misguided this is.

What do the Dolphins run? Brady threw for 500 on them.

What do the Chargers run? Brady threw for 420+ on them.

What do the Superbowl Champion Packers run? Cam Newton threw for 430+ on them.

What do the Ravens run? Hasselbeck threw for 350+ on them.

All defenses are getting chewed up right now. And the Tampa 2 seems to be working very well on Detroit and Chicago. Schemes don't make the defense, players do. Ask the evil genius Bill Belichick how his beloved 3-4 is working. So well that he's switched to the 4-3 because of his personnel, who aren't that talented.

The Tampa 2 works when you have the guys to run it.

Imagine if I made a thread about our offense now and how it's outdated since Collins has come on. That's the equivalent of this thread. If you give us Peppers to go w/ Mathis and Freeney and Urlacher and Briggs this D would be fine. heck when we had Bob Sanders this D was fine. It's the players not the scheme.

[unitaswestand]

The Tampa 2 Defense will always have it's known vunerabilities. If the offense can run the ball or hit short, quick passes, that is the ticket. If you go back to our Super Bowl win, other then the long pass to Wayne for a TD, which was a broken coverage, Manning showed how to beat the Tampa 2. We ran the ball a lot with Addai/Rhodes and hit a lot of short passes. Manning didn't look superhuman, but it got the job done.

As Jason pointed out, if you run a Tampa 2 on 1st and 2nd down, and the MLB is dropping into coverage, you basically are asking defensive lineman to stop the run.

But it does work for us, as painful as it seems. Teams go up and down the field....until they get into to red zone. Then they slow down. The Colts don't give up that many big plays.

I, personally, would like to see more of a base 4-3 with linebackers playing run more on first down. I hate the fake blitzing or stunting by tackles becasue it rarely works.

[NC Colt Fan]

"The Tampa 2 works when you have the guys to run it."

Could not agree more. The missing ingredient for the Colts for the past several years has been two very disruptive defensive tackles. Dungy had Warren Sapp and Booger McFarland. Sapp is a hall of famer. They are the reason the Tamp 2 worked. Without constant disruptive pressure up the middle folks gain an edge in the run and in the short pass. See any game we have played against the Patriots or the Saints Super Bowl win as examples.

Without a Warren Sapp caliber DT, this defense will be gashed by the run and or short passing games.

[Balzer40]

It is so funny how misguided this is.

What do the Dolphins run? Brady threw for 500 on them.

What do the Chargers run? Brady threw for 420+ on them.

What do the Superbowl Champion Packers run? Cam Newton threw for 430+ on them.

What do the Ravens run? Hasselbeck threw for 350+ on them.

All defenses are getting chewed up right now. And the Tampa 2 seems to be working very well on Detroit and Chicago. Schemes don't make the defense, players do. Ask the evil genius Bill Belichick how his beloved 3-4 is working. So well that he's switched to the 4-3 because of his personnel, who aren't that talented.

The Tampa 2 works when you have the guys to run it.

Imagine if I made a thread about our offense now and how it's outdated since Collins has come on. That's the equivalent of this thread. If you give us Peppers to go w/ Mathis and Freeney and Urlacher and Briggs this D would be fine. heck when we had Bob Sanders this D was fine. It's the players not the scheme.

People always want to change to the 3-4 scheme because its different, but the 3-4 is/was designed to stop the run. If a 3-4 D is playing against a very good QB then the 3-4 can be exploited(although Peyton has has his troubles with it). I do, however, think we should get away from the Tampa 2. Detroit and Chicago play more of a 4-3 base defense with some cover 1 and cover 2 thrown in as well. That is what the Colts should do IMO. Forget about the Tampa 2 and just play a 4-3 base defense.

[LUVTHESHOE]

It is so funny how misguided this is.

What do the Dolphins run? Brady threw for 500 on them.

What do the Chargers run? Brady threw for 420+ on them.

What do the Superbowl Champion Packers run? Cam Newton threw for 430+ on them.

What do the Ravens run? Hasselbeck threw for 350+ on them.

All defenses are getting chewed up right now. And the Tampa 2 seems to be working very well on Detroit and Chicago. Schemes don't make the defense, players do. Ask the evil genius Bill Belichick how his beloved 3-4 is working. So well that he's switched to the 4-3 because of his personnel, who aren't that talented.

The Tampa 2 works when you have the guys to run it.

Imagine if I made a thread about our offense now and how it's outdated since Collins has come on. That's the equivalent of this thread. If you give us Peppers to go w/ Mathis and Freeney and Urlacher and Briggs this D would be fine. heck when we had Bob Sanders this D was fine. It's the players not the scheme.

Actully it has to be a lot of both wrong personal and scheme. this team has had a huge problem

getting other teams off the field and we have been in the lower hafl of the league in offensive possessions

for the last few years. believe me i dont have the answers or i would be drawing them up on a college or nfl

locker room chalkboard not complaining on this site, but that being said there is definently is a problem. the defense

for years now has been turning every 2nd and 3rd string running back they play into jim brown and letting lower tier

qb's hit lower tier wideouts while giving peyton 2 or 3 attempts with the ball a quarter.

let's just hope something changes, they can not goe through the entire year letting guys like colt mccoy go 8-8 on

crucial drives throwing to guys nono of us have heard of. if you cant keep colt mccoy from beating you, who can you stop?

[LiveColtsFootball]

This question is very simple to answer. This is Tony Dungys plan of how to play Defense. The second Tony Dungy retired, the SYSTEM should have RETIRED WITH HIM. Then bring in a proven Defensive head coach....but this is what we got instead..two great pass rushers and a great safety...then we CUT the GREAT safety and replace him with a backup, thats all Bullet is. So this is what were left with on D a few sacks a game, a few big runs a game due to a bad angle or bad atempt at a tackle by the SS, gaping holes right up the middle, and a coach who i never see talking whether it be durring a game or at training camp I HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM OR HEAR HIM 'COACH' ANY PLAYER OF ANY POSITION AT ANYTIME.

[Steagles]

Yea if we played cover 2 like the giants who play man with their corners and blitz more we would see better results.

And if we drafted (who I want) Mark Barron, it would be even better.

[Jason_]

As Jason pointed out, if you run a Tampa 2 on 1st and 2nd down, and the MLB is dropping into coverage, you basically are asking defensive lineman to stop the run.

Not only that but they're also leaving the short-middle area of the field open. The routes teams are using to exploit this need little to no time to develop. If you have a QB and slot WR that are on the same page (Brady and Welker as just one example) and they both read the MLB taking a step backwards then they're going to complete a short slant on every single play and, even though they're only 5 yard completions or less, a tackle could be broken and turn this into a big play, or best case scenario for us we wind up in a 2nd or 3rd and short. At least with keeping the MLB in middle zone instead of deep zone, the hole that opens up in the zone is behind the LB instead of in front of it. This kind of route takes longer to develop and gives our pass rush more time to get to the QB. One thing I will say is that Angerer did a magnificent job of diagnosing the run. There was not a single running play by the Browns where he took a full step backwards so he recognized the play quickly enough to not allow himself to be caught out of position on a running play.

People always want to change to the 3-4 scheme because its different, but the 3-4 is/was designed to stop the run. If a 3-4 D is playing against a very good QB then the 3-4 can be exploited(although Peyton has has his troubles with it). I do, however, think we should get away from the Tampa 2. Detroit and Chicago play more of a 4-3 base defense with some cover 1 and cover 2 thrown in as well. That is what the Colts should do IMO. Forget about the Tampa 2 and just play a 4-3 base defense.

The point you made about the 3-4 is spot on. A couple of years ago I thought the same thing that a lot of people do in that I thought the 3-4 was actually more of a pass-stopping defense. It made sense to me at the time, you have an extra LB on the field who is faster than the DL and if you play him in coverage then that's an extra defender playing in coverage. However the more I learned about defenses and really started studying them the more I realized how wrong I was. In fact I now notice that even 3-4 teams will often show a 4 man front when they switch to a nickel defense so that goes to show they aren't using the 3-4 to defend the pass.

to your point about using more of a base 4-3 instead of the tampa 2...they did do this quite a bit in the Browns game but still used the tampa 2 too often and in the wrong situations. I'm going to be paying very close attention to this as the season goes on. I'm very interested to see if the play calling stays the way it is now or if they make adjustments as the season continues.

[GoGoColts]

There is nothing wrong with the Tampa 2. The problem is that we aren't committing draft picks to execute it correctly. We are too busy drafting first round busts. As Rex Ryan finally realized is that blitz happy defenses don't stop great offenses, it comes down to coverage. As soon as the Colts commit to building the best DT rotation in the league, our defense will be impossible to score on.

As soon as we get an outstanding defensive line our speedy linebackers, above average safeties, and physical corners will look like superstars.

Edited September 20, 2011 by GoGoColts

[StaticColt77]

It is so funny how misguided this is.

What do the Dolphins run? Brady threw for 500 on them.

What do the Chargers run? Brady threw for 420+ on them.

What do the Superbowl Champion Packers run? Cam Newton threw for 430+ on them.

What do the Ravens run? Hasselbeck threw for 350+ on them.

All defenses are getting chewed up right now. And the Tampa 2 seems to be working very well on Detroit and Chicago. Schemes don't make the defense, players do. Ask the evil genius Bill Belichick how his beloved 3-4 is working. So well that he's switched to the 4-3 because of his personnel, who aren't that talented.

The Tampa 2 works when you have the guys to run it.

Imagine if I made a thread about our offense now and how it's outdated since Collins has come on. That's the equivalent of this thread. If you give us Peppers to go w/ Mathis and Freeney and Urlacher and Briggs this D would be fine. heck when we had Bob Sanders this D was fine. It's the players not the scheme.

We were being exposed since last year, difference was our offense was able to put points on the bored. And it's not just passing I'm talking about, plus if you watched those games you would've seen that even when Brady was blitzed he still had forever to throw. Cam threw for 420yds, but you don't mention the 2-3 or so picks that the Packs D got. Hasslebeck picked on the mismatch with Kenny Britt, and the Ravens D just didn't show up. But they slaughtered the Steelers, if anything, this is bad news for us, Hasslebeck may very well put up 400+ on us. And Kenny Britt will kill us.

All those defenses are better than ours, you cannot compare our D to those defenses based off of ONE game. They are far more consistent. Although passing is the new fad, all those teams will finish with better records than us AT THIS POINT, maybe even the Panthers if we don't show up to play. This topic is about the fact that our defense is clearly in question, and when they do actually make plays, our offense can't back them up. Which wasn't the case in the past, the fact that we're built to play with a lead is our first flaw since our offense is clearly not the same. So why couldn't they make minor adjustments to fix that? I mean I know there's a learning curve and all, but it seems like something that should be done.

[StaticColt77]

There is nothing wrong with the Tampa 2. The problem is that we aren't committing draft picks to execute it correctly. We are too busy drafting first round busts. As Rex Ryan finally realized is that blitz happy defenses don't stop great offenses, it comes down to coverage. As soon as the Colts commit to building the best DT rotation in the league, our defense will be impossible to score on.

I understand this, but we are waaaaaaay too patient with guys like Lacey, who has been a thorn in our side forever.

[StaticColt77]

Yes it is, but ppl need to understand the colts DONT run a pure tampa 2... they run the 46 sometimes they do alot of schemes and try alot of things.. this year you are seeing alot of blitzing.

One thing ppl complain about is the colts CB's playing off, well guess who likes to play off the wr's.... ASSANTE SAMUEL, point is its not the coaches or the scheme its the players... look at bryan urlacher with the bears they ran a tampa 2 and look at them they were a great defense thats cause they had the players. if a better corner played you would see better production... powers is a good CB but lacey is not so good on the outside at all..... And THAT is the issue NOT THE SCHEME!

But Asante is Asante, we have no one comparable to him, he has a skillset that none of our guys have.

[zachb]

Tampa 2 is old and figured out!!

[StaticColt77]

I've had the feeling for a long time that the Tampa 2 scheme was a big part of the issues we have. I re-watched the Colts/Browns game and categorized every single play where we were on defense and the results the of the Browns offense. The detailed breakdown is in this thread:

http://forums.colts.com/index.php?/topic/1814-coaching-to-blame-for-majority-of-defensive-issues-today/page__p__34768__fromsearch__1#entry34768

The problem isn't necessarily the scheme itself, but rather the misuse of it. Every time we dropped the MLB into deep zone coverage on 1st or 2nd down on a passing play, the Browns completed a pass to the tune of 8/8 for 68 yards. It was only used 3 times on 3rd down, I imagine mostly because the 3rd downs were mostly 3rd and short, but on the longer 3rd downs it was very effective. Against the Tampa 2 on 3rd down McCoy was 1/3 for 8 yards.

Also, we do not run a 4-6 defense. ;) We often times bring a safety into the "box" but this doesn't mean it's a 4-3 defense. A lot of 4-3 teams bring a safety into the box on running downs. See the image below for a diagram of the base 4-6 formation. Notice the WILL and SAM LB's both line up on the same side. I don't know that I've ever seen the Colts line up that way. They will sometimes bring the SAM or WILL closer to the middle and bring that side's safety down into the area the LB has vacated.

As for the Bears, I think they call the defense the way it should be called...more of a cover 2 on 1st and 2nd and if they actually do run the tampa 2 and drop the MLB into deep zone then it's only on 3rd down. You don't see them get gashed on plays in the center of the field in the 3-5 yard area. Coyer's biggest problem is that he doesn't seem to get this. The Tampa 2 is basically designed to prevent a big play...use it on 3rd and long and that's fine. A 9 yard completion still is considered a win because you prevented a first down. Do it on first down though and all of a sudden you're in a 2nd and 2. Basically this has lead to being in way too many 2nd and 3rd and very short yardage.

I always thought it was a situational defense, not something used on almost every down.. I'm not suggesting we switch to a 3-4, cause we'd have to rebuild.

I just think we should rely so much on a scheme that shows it's hugest benefits us when we're leading by 2TD's.

I notice a lot of teams run something similar to ours, like the Lions, who have a GREAT D-line.

But those teams will adjust to the situation, I feel we're more of a static defense, that makes minor to no adjustments to fit the situation.

I think the Tampa 2 works very well in the redzone, so perhaps we should use it more then.

[GoGoColts]

I understand this, but we are waaaaaaay too patient with guys like Lacey, who has been a thorn in our side forever.

I agree. I think that the Colts knew that this year was hopeless so they cut Hayden to save money and hope that Lacey and Powers get better. Coaching is poor as well.