What If

[turner46992]

Lets just say that we really do end up doing bad this season and Manning doesnt make a appearance this year. Do you think that Polian and Irsay will really take a High Round QB in the draft or do you see them taking more of a high end Defensive player? I was thinking about it at work. Obviously next years draft we need to get a realiable/ potential starter for this team, but we also know how the polians work by trying to take "no name" players and make them work for their name in the NFL. So what if they attempt to take a Qb in the second or Third...would this hurt us or help us? Just a thought, what do you guys think?

[Corndog]

There are alot of things this team needs, linebackers, another o-lineman(possibly center, Saturday is getting up there), and cornerbacks(although I would wait later for them). I would love to see this team get a great linebacker in the first round, I have been waiting quite a while for that. As far as a new QB, if Manning is okay can this team even afford to pay a top ten picked QB? Especially for one that will be sitting on the bench for four years, I might wait until Manning only has two years left.

[Jason_]

I agree with Corndog. At this point and basically until Peyton is about a year, maybe 2, from retirement then I don't think it'd be worth it to pick up and pay a high round QB. I'd much rather address the defense and Oline and maybe pick up an additional WR.

[GoColts8818]

Polian said on his show tonight one of the things that him and Peyton talked about when doing this contract is that it was time to start looking at QBs like they could be the starter of the Indianapolis Colts franchise. He said there were a couple of guys in this draft they liked but none of them slide to the Colts but if they had they would have taken them. That tells me that if we have the first over all pick next year Andrew Luck is going to be wearing a horse shoe.

Now with that said the down side to taking a QB with at pick means that the Colts don't address any real needs with what could be a super high pick. However, one could argue that having a super star QB in it's self addresses a need because clearly having one of those covers up some of the other needs. I am sure rather Polian takes a Luck or not (if we are in that spot) people are going to rip him and say he should have done something else because if you pass on Luck to address other needs then you might be passing on the next Manning where as if the Colts take Luck and maybe set themselves up for a Favre/Rodgers situation in Green Bay then the Colts aren't addressing the team needs to help them win now and if I have learned anything people love to second guess Polian's moves.

We are putting the cart way before the horse here though. I think this team is going to figure some things out and frankly even without Peyton we have too much talent to be the worst team in the NFL.

[coltsfanej]

I agree,Peyton having one or two years left should be the goal, but I imagine that the Front office is going to know more than us about Peytons future. He may only have two years left if the neck problem could shorten his career. Id hate to wait to get the future QB when he have to, I mean it almost seems like a waste to not let our next QB study under Peyton a year or two... And based on 6 of the last 7 drafts, our first round pick hasnt been much so picking up the future QB if we pick early, the expected being Luck, wouldnt really be a waste if we dont get production from our first rounders anyway.

[coltsfanej]

That tells me that if we have the first over all pick next year Andrew Luck is going to be wearing a horse shoe.

Now with that said the down side to taking a QB with at pick means that the Colts don't address any real needs with what could be a super high pick. However, one could argue that having a super star QB in it's self addresses a need because clearly having one of those covers up some of the other needs. I am sure rather Polian takes a Luck or not (if we are in that spot) people are going to rip him and say he should have done something else because if you pass on Luck to address other needs then you might be passing on the next Manning where as if the Colts take Luck and maybe set themselves up for a Favre/Rodgers situation in Green Bay then the Colts aren't addressing the team needs to help them win now and if I have learned anything people love to second guess Polian's moves.

We are putting the cart way before the horse here though. I think this team is going to figure some things out and frankly even without Peyton we have too much talent to be the worst team in the NFL.

Im hoping that we will improve as well. I dont expect us going winless or anything like that, but this draft is definatly going to need to fill some whols in many spots. Most of our Wide-outs are in their contract year, we need help at the Dline and Dbacks, and a backup QB/QB of future.

So I say if we do take Luck or other QB in first round or so that we did address a need IMO. I also really like the top few Wideouts expected to come out.

And about everyone second guessing Polian- can u blame them? I mean it looks like we might have a bad season after going to the playoffs 9 consecutive years. What a bum ha... (sarcasm)

[GoColts8818]

Im hoping that we will improve as well. I dont expect us going winless or anything like that, but this draft is definatly going to need to fill some whols in many spots. Most of our Wide-outs are in their contract year, we need help at the Dline and Dbacks, and a backup QB/QB of future.

So I say if we do take Luck or other QB in first round or so that we did address a need IMO. I also really like the top few Wideouts expected to come out.

And about everyone second guessing Polian- can u blame them? I mean it looks like we might have a bad season after going to the playoffs 9 consecutive years. What a bum ha... (sarcasm)

Yeah there is a very good chance we could still have a really high draft pick but not the first pick over all. If that happens it gives us a great chance to target something out that is a need. Frankly, I would be looking at WR. Reggie is still great and I think we keep him after this year but I doubt we keep Gonzo and Garcon might even be hard to keep with Mathis a free agent as well. On top of that Saturday and Diem are both free agents and I wouldn't expect either to be back so we need to find another guard some where along the line but we aren't going to do that in the first round of the NFL draft. So to me the target areas would be WR because even if we keep Wayne his decline is coming, CB, or DT, or a center or maybe QB if there is one like besides Luck and we don't have the first pick. Which ever is the best one on the board at that point I would take.

I follow college football to the point I know who guys are but I am not very good at all at being able to tell you who is going to be drafted where so till I see mock drafts starting to pop up closer to the draft I can't really narrow it down more than the poistions of need IMO.

[jcdavey]

Lets just say that we really do end up doing bad this season and Manning doesnt make a appearance this year. Do you think that Polian and Irsay will really take a High Round QB in the draft or do you see them taking more of a high end Defensive player? I was thinking about it at work. Obviously next years draft we need to get a realiable/ potential starter for this team, but we also know how the polians work by trying to take "no name" players and make them work for their name in the NFL. So what if they attempt to take a Qb in the second or Third...would this hurt us or help us? Just a thought, what do you guys think?

if you're in a position to draft luck, you'd do it

if luck has a good year in college

i mean it's common sense

if peyton recovers, you can probably fleece another team in a luck trade, because it's not just luck, it's a qb who everyone who needed a qb will probably want, and he just got groomed at least for a year, by peyton manning......

it's like drafting a guy with nfl experience, that's what the trade partner will think of it like

and on the other hand, if peyton doesn't recover, then you've got a new qb ready to step in.

it's really a no brainer

[Jason_]

I agree,Peyton having one or two years left should be the goal, but I imagine that the Front office is going to know more than us about Peytons future. He may only have two years left if the neck problem could shorten his career. Id hate to wait to get the future QB when he have to, I mean it almost seems like a waste to not let our next QB study under Peyton a year or two... And based on 6 of the last 7 drafts, our first round pick hasnt been much so picking up the future QB if we pick early, the expected being Luck, wouldnt really be a waste if we dont get production from our first rounders anyway.

I think the biggest problem with our drafts the past couple years (not including this last one) is that we've picked players who we knew were going to be backups. There were many other areas of need that should have been addressed instead of picking up a pass rushing DE to sit behind Freeney and Mathis and before that Brown to backup Addai. We need to be drafting to upgrade starting positions that need to be upgraded instead of picking up guys who are going to be backups.

I've also said this in other threads but I'll say it here too. I think we need to consider parting with a couple of our big name guys who are excellent in one area but very poor in another to try and go for guys who are more balanced and well rounded. I'm talking about guys like Freeney/Mathis who excel at pass rushing but are liabilities against the run and (as much as I love the guy) Dallas Clark who obviously excels at receiving but is sub-par in blocking.

The one thing I do like is the difference in philosophy we've seen in the short time since Chris Polian took over as GM. In the draft we went after players to upgrade starting positions (such as Costanzo and Ijalana to upgrade the oline, Nevis to upgrade the Dline and then our later picks Carter and Rucker were made to improve depth) plus the increase in movement in free agency. I also like the fact we're going after players who are bigger and stronger than guys we've gone after in years past. Hopefully this continues and we wind up with more of a formidable defense.

[GoColts8818]

I think the biggest problem with our drafts the past couple years (not including this last one) is that we've picked players who we knew were going to be backups. There were many other areas of need that should have been addressed instead of picking up a pass rushing DE to sit behind Freeney and Mathis and before that Brown to backup Addai. We need to be drafting to upgrade starting positions that need to be upgraded instead of picking up guys who are going to be backups.

I've also said this in other threads but I'll say it here too. I think we need to consider parting with a couple of our big name guys who are excellent in one area but very poor in another to try and go for guys who are more balanced and well rounded. I'm talking about guys like Freeney/Mathis who excel at pass rushing but are liabilities against the run and (as much as I love the guy) Dallas Clark who obviously excels at receiving but is sub-par in blocking.

The one thing I do like is the difference in philosophy we've seen in the short time since Chris Polian took over as GM. In the draft we went after players to upgrade starting positions (such as Costanzo and Ijalana to upgrade the oline, Nevis to upgrade the Dline and then our later picks Carter and Rucker were made to improve depth) plus the increase in movement in free agency. I also like the fact we're going after players who are bigger and stronger than guys we've gone after in years past. Hopefully this continues and we wind up with more of a formidable defense.

The Brown pick was made for two reasons, one to replace Rhodes at first and two then to replace Addai. The Colts feel that you need two backs to win now so Brown wasn't really drafted to be a back up because in the Colts eyes your number two back is a part-time starter. With that also said he was taken when the Colts seemed to feel the issue with not being able to run the ball was an issue with the back and not the o-line. I am not trying to defend it I have hated the Brown pick since the day it happened, I am just trying to explain it.

[coltsfanej]

Yeah there is a very good chance we could still have a really high draft pick but not the first pick over all. If that happens it gives us a great chance to target something out that is a need. Frankly, I would be looking at WR. Reggie is still great and I think we keep him after this year but I doubt we keep Gonzo and Garcon might even be hard to keep with Mathis a free agent as well. On top of that Saturday and Diem are both free agents and I wouldn't expect either to be back so we need to find another guard some where along the line but we aren't going to do that in the first round of the NFL draft. So to me the target areas would be WR because even if we keep Wayne his decline is coming, CB, or DT, or a center or maybe QB if there is one like besides Luck and we don't have the first pick. Which ever is the best one on the board at that point I would take.

I follow college football to the point I know who guys are but I am not very good at all at being able to tell you who is going to be drafted where so till I see mock drafts starting to pop up closer to the draft I can't really narrow it down more than the poistions of need IMO.

If we have a top 5 or top 10 pick and there isnt someone were totally in love with I wouldnt be suprised to trade down. Maybe like the Browns did last year. I would be nice to have multiple picks in the first couple rounds to help fill some needs. Reggie and Mathis are guys I think we really need to bring back, and maybe Saturday for another year or two if hes cheap enough. Next offseason looks to be hard on us with all the FA

[GoColts8818]

If we have a top 5 or top 10 pick and there isnt someone were totally in love with I wouldnt be suprised to trade down. Maybe like the Browns did last year. I would be nice to have multiple picks in the first couple rounds to help fill some needs. Reggie and Mathis are guys I think we really need to bring back, and maybe Saturday for another year or two if hes cheap enough. Next offseason looks to be hard on us with all the FA

I think this is Jeff's last year as a Colts I hope he retires because frankly no one wants to say but part of the big issue with the line Sunday was Jeff. He was in the backfield almost as much as Addai and Collins were the only difference is that he was getting pushed into it. We need Jeff right now for his leadership but he is on his very last legs. I would love it if he retired and the Colts turned around and hired him to help coach the line.

[esmort]

Im hoping that we will improve as well. I dont expect us going winless or anything like that, but this draft is definatly going to need to fill some whols in many spots. Most of our Wide-outs are in their contract year, we need help at the Dline and Dbacks, and a backup QB/QB of future.

So I say if we do take Luck or other QB in first round or so that we did address a need IMO. I also really like the top few Wideouts expected to come out.

And about everyone second guessing Polian- can u blame them? I mean it looks like we might have a bad season after going to the playoffs 9 consecutive years. What a bum ha... (sarcasm)

If we aren't going to make the playoffs then why hope we improve ...I would much rather have the #1 pick then a couple extra wins this season

[coltsfanej]

I've also said this in other threads but I'll say it here too. I think we need to consider parting with a couple of our big name guys who are excellent in one area but very poor in another to try and go for guys who are more balanced and well rounded. I'm talking about guys like Freeney/Mathis who excel at pass rushing but are liabilities against the run and (as much as I love the guy) Dallas Clark who obviously excels at receiving but is sub-par in blocking.

The one thing I do like is the difference in philosophy we've seen in the short time since Chris Polian took over as GM. In the draft we went after players to upgrade starting positions (such as Costanzo and Ijalana to upgrade the oline, Nevis to upgrade the Dline and then our later picks Carter and Rucker were made to improve depth) plus the increase in movement in free agency. I also like the fact we're going after players who are bigger and stronger than guys we've gone after in years past. Hopefully this continues and we wind up with more of a formidable defense.

A agree with the second paragraph. I like the stamp Chris is putting on the team so far, but I think dallas is a pretty good blocking TE especially considering how much of a threat he is as a receiver. There are only a few guys that are equally good at both. But if your basing it on sunday vs Mario william, there is no TE in the league that can block Mario. That was just dumb coaching or QB play. I do agree that Mathis and Freeney on being running game liabilities, but we need them unless we are going to change our whole defense. Because we dont blitz and they are the only way for us to put any pressure on the QB.

[coltsfanej]

If we aren't going to make the playoffs then why hope we improve ...I would much rather have the #1 pick then a couple extra wins this season

I would also much rather us have the number one pick and either take Luck our get a bunch of Pickss for it, but the fan in me wants to see my team win or at least compete. I would rather us lose in games where we at least look competent than how we looked sunday.

[GoColts8818]

If we aren't going to make the playoffs then why hope we improve ...I would much rather have the #1 pick then a couple extra wins this season

Spoken like someone's whose job isn't on the line if you don't win this year. The Colts players and coaches can lose their jobs if they do really bad this season which is why they are never going to tank it.

[coltsfanej]

I think this is Jeff's last year as a Colts I hope he retires because frankly no one wants to say but part of the big issue with the line Sunday was Jeff. He was in the backfield almost as much as Addai and Collins were the only difference is that he was getting pushed into it. We need Jeff right now for his leadership but he is on his very last legs. I would love it if he retired and the Colts turned around and hired him to help coach the line.

Yeah, he is no longer in his prime. I agree, his leadership and knowledge of the offense would be a great asset as a coach.

[Jason_]

A agree with the second paragraph. I like the stamp Chris is putting on the team so far, but I think dallas is a pretty good blocking TE especially considering how much of a threat he is as a receiver. There are only a few guys that are equally good at both. But if your basing it on sunday vs Mario william, there is no TE in the league that can block Mario. That was just dumb coaching or QB play. I do agree that Mathis and Freeney on being running game liabilities, but we need them unless we are going to change our whole defense. Because we dont blitz and they are the only way for us to put any pressure on the QB.

Regarding Clark and his blocking, I promise you I'm not basing that solely off of Sunday. Though with all of the knee-jerk posts on the board since the game I can understand why you might think that way. I was definitely cussing Sunday on those 2 plays but not at Clark. Rather whoever it was that either let the scheme call for him to be one on one vs. Williams or whoever missed the assignment that left him one on one with Williams. I agree, no TE in the game is going to take Mario 1 on 1, heck not many OT's can do it. I'm speaking of overall on the plays he does stay in to pass block and even more so on running plays. I'm not saying he's absolutely horrible but I do think we could get a very significant upgrade in the blocking area hopefully without losing too much in the area of receiving. Plus, at least if we did trade Clark we would still have Tamme. I realize he's not the same quality of player but he definitely showed he could step up and make some plays and still be a respectable threat last year. We would lose in the transition from Clark to Tamme but I think we could get a good enough pick in exchange for Clark to be able to take another 1st or 2nd round defensive talent. My hope would be that the upgrade we get from the defensive draft pick would outweigh the downgrade we take from Clark to Tamme but overall I think it could be worth it. However, I want to be sure to point out that Clark's name was the hardest for me to put on the list because I am a very big fan of his.

As for the defensive scheme, I'm not saying to totally change it but we do need to make some tweaks to it. Tampa and Chicago both run the same scheme but much more successfully because their players aren't all overmatched in size against their adversaries and they are much more aggressive. I do think we need to be more aggressive and we need to continue the recent trend of picking up guys who are bigger and stronger than guys we've had in years past.

I also agree that having Freeney and Mathis are the best way for us currently to get pressure on the opposing QB, but if we were to let just one of them go we still have good depth at DE with Anderson, Brayton and Hughes and as we pick up another DT or 2 we can shift Foster back to DE where I think he is much better suited. Individually, Anderson, Hughes, Brayton nor Foster are going to be the individual threat that either Freeney or Mathis is, but if we were to lose just one of the 2, use the draft pick we would likely get and the cap space to draft a monster DT that can play both the run and pass then overall the Dline improves. Plus I think if we upgrade the LB and Safety positions we may start seeing more blitzes, especially from the safeties. I think a Dline of Mathis/Nevis/drafted DT (such as Devon Still from Penn state for example) and Hughes/Anderson/Foster could still get great pressure on the QB and this would be a bigger, more stout line that would be more effective against the run, especially when Mathis subs out. Between the 2 of Freeney and Mathis I'd rather keep Freeney because he does have 20 lbs on Mathis. However this being Mathis' contract year it's unlikely that we would re-sign him and then trade him. If other teams are interested then they'll simply try to outbid us against him in FA. That's why I say to re-sign Mathis and then trade Freeney. I just hope that Mathis understands that he is mostly a situational player since he is so ineffective against the run and we don't wind up over-paying for him.

[coltsfanej]

I also agree that having Freeney and Mathis are the best way for us currently to get pressure on the opposing QB, but if we were to let just one of them go we still have good depth at DE with Anderson, Brayton and Hughes and as we pick up another DT or 2 we can shift Foster back to DE where I think he is much better suited. Individually, Anderson, Hughes, Brayton nor Foster are going to be the individual threat that either Freeney or Mathis is, but if we were to lose just one of the 2, use the draft pick we would likely get and the cap space to draft a monster DT that can play both the run and pass then overall the Dline improves. Plus I think if we upgrade the LB and Safety positions we may start seeing more blitzes, especially from the safeties. I think a Dline of Mathis/Nevis/drafted DT (such as Devon Still from Penn state for example) and Hughes/Anderson/Foster could still get great pressure on the QB and this would be a bigger, more stout line that would be more effective against the run, especially when Mathis subs out. Between the 2 of Freeney and Mathis I'd rather keep Freeney because he does have 20 lbs on Mathis. However this being Mathis' contract year it's unlikely that we would re-sign him and then trade him. If other teams are interested then they'll simply try to outbid us against him in FA. That's why I say to re-sign Mathis and then trade Freeney. I just hope that Mathis understands that he is mostly a situational player since he is so ineffective against the run and we don't wind up over-paying for him.

If the trade value is high enough for these guys then it could be worth while, but even though Freeney and Mathis have comparable numbers i still believe Freeney is much more valuable for a couple of reasons.

1. is that he plays on the QBs blind side

2. is that he still puts up the numbers as Mathis, but with much more double teams and blocking help.

Tamme is a very formidable TE IMO as well. But he could demand a decent amount of money after the numbers he had last year. His market value could drop letting us get him back cheaper after this year because he will not get hardly anything with Collins at QB.

The only problem with Mathis not being overpaid is if he wants to give us a discount because his market value is going to be much higher than what we could pay him I believe. If Mathis is going to be traded it is going to be this year I would say, but we just are not normally a team that does a whole lot of changes through trades, but maybe Chris Polian feels its more beneficial than his daddy did.

[Jason_]

If the trade value is high enough for these guys then it could be worth while, but even though Freeney and Mathis have comparable numbers i still believe Freeney is much more valuable for a couple of reasons.

1. is that he plays on the QBs blind side

2. is that he still puts up the numbers as Mathis, but with much more double teams and blocking help. I definitely agree. The whole contract situation is the only reason I think it would be more likely to keep Mathis as opposed to Freeney. Plus like you said, Freeney's value would be higher so I think we could get more in return for him.

Tamme is a very formidable TE IMO as well. But he could demand a decent amount of money after the numbers he had last year. His market value could drop letting us get him back cheaper after this year because he will not get hardly anything with Collins at QB.

The only problem with Mathis not being overpaid is if he wants to give us a discount because his market value is going to be much higher than what we could pay him I believe. If Mathis is going to be traded it is going to be this year I would say, but we just are not normally a team that does a whole lot of changes through trades, but maybe Chris Polian feels its more beneficial than his daddy did.

[GoDeep]

Lets just say that we really do end up doing bad this season and Manning doesnt make a appearance this year. Do you think that Polian and Irsay will really take a High Round QB in the draft or do you see them taking more of a high end Defensive player? I was thinking about it at work. Obviously next years draft we need to get a realiable/ potential starter for this team, but we also know how the polians work by trying to take "no name" players and make them work for their name in the NFL. So what if they attempt to take a Qb in the second or Third...would this hurt us or help us? Just a thought, what do you guys think?

Ah, robbing company time I see.

[Jason_]

The Brown pick was made for two reasons, one to replace Rhodes at first and two then to replace Addai. The Colts feel that you need two backs to win now so Brown wasn't really drafted to be a back up because in the Colts eyes your number two back is a part-time starter. With that also said he was taken when the Colts seemed to feel the issue with not being able to run the ball was an issue with the back and not the o-line. I am not trying to defend it I have hated the Brown pick since the day it happened, I am just trying to explain it.

I agree, and that's really just a matter of semantics. I consider Brown/Rhodes etc as the backup to Addai even though they will probably get close to if not equal reps to Addai. I know the Colts want to keep at least 2 primary runners to keep them fresh and change things up etc etc so when I referred to Brown as the "backup" I simply meant the #2 on the depth chart.

[Rich Cannon]

Yeah, he is no longer in his prime. I agree, his leadership and knowledge of the offense would be a great asset as a coach.

He was out best Offensiive Lineman last year, heres my proof. http://community.mycolts.net/reply/93497#reply-93497 I still think he retires after this year, hes played a long time. Sorry the link actually was deleted i just tried clicking on it. Basically it was a post showing percentages of good, bad and dominant blocking statistics of every one on our line and Jeff was the most consistent.

[turner46992]

Ah, robbing company time I see.

yeah, its worth it though, Anything colts related should be allowed at work..lol

[coltsfanej]

He was out best Offensiive Lineman last year, heres my proof. http://community.mycolts.net/reply/93497#reply-93497 I still think he retires after this year, hes played a long time. Sorry the link actually was deleted i just tried clicking on it. Basically it was a post showing percentages of good, bad and dominant blocking statistics of every one on our line and Jeff was the most consistent.

Theres no doubt he was our best, but it is also a fact that he is no longer in his prime, that doesnt mean he is no longer good. He is the best Linemen on our horrible Oline. Thats the problem. I hope he stays for another 3 or 4 years if he has it in him to stay with Peyton. But some feel that he may retire after this season. He would also do better if the Line played better as a group. One guy being good on a horrible line still equals a horrible line. I for one hope he will stay as we try to rebuild the rest of the line.