Pats@miami

[Moose Of Woe]

I agree with all your post except to the above.(which leaves a lot I agreed with:)) Those defensive line dominated games are rare since as you say you need an 85 Bears type defense. So he has run into 3 of them..4 if you add the Lions preseason game:) Any QB will struggle but lesser QBs will struggle more.Hence why there IS a difference in QBs. PM got whacked by the Steeler playoff game defense and I'm sure I could find 2 others, one of which might be NE in 04.

The converse is also true. Given a great Oline not every QB will have pro bowl numbers. Again, only the great QBs will. The others will do better than if no Oline but not near the quality of a PM,Brady,Elway or whoever you want to put in that category.

A QB needs a great team to go far for sure...but a great QB also makes use of that opportunity and just adds to the lethality of it.

I lol'd at the Lions preseason game... I forgot about that.

Peyton has run in to a few himself, yes. The Steelers game as you mentioned is one...and that 2004 Patriots team was the D of the decade. The only one close would have MAYBE been the 2000/2001 Ravens.

When facing difficult defenses, Tom Brady usually has a solid ST and D unit to help out. Also..you know...a competant coach helps. -_- Therein lies the joy of playing for a complete team. Although in the past few playoffs neither unit stepped up enough to help win the games for the Patriots. If this were the D from the early-mid 2000's Tom would probably have six rings by now. Even with subpar games the past 3 playoffs - it would have been enough to win. (Well, maybe not the Ravens game..that was ugly)

Peyton had and continues to have NO help in the other 2/3 main facets of the game. (Sans 2006 when the D showed up to play in the playoffs, FINALLY, and surprise surprise the Colts won it all) Along with that Browns game a few years ago when the D actually won the game. I was looking for the four horsemen in the sky but the apocalypse never did happen.

Peyton has pretty much had the lion's share of work on his shoulders every season and, quite frankly as good as he is he can't do it all on his own. Nobody can. Hence, only ONE ring during his tenure when 2/3 of the team showed up.

Like you said, a QB needs a great team to go far. The best overall team Manning has ever had wasn't even all of 2006 when the Colts won the SB. In 2003-2004 Peyton had a SOLID run game, o-line, receivers, TEs and coach. No defense. No ST. This was the best he was ever given to work with. In 2006 the D anomalously came alive and for a brief stretch he had 2/3 of a team. Boom.

Unfortunately for Indy in 2003-04 the Pats were just that much better. 2003 was close/mugging, but the Patriots were still the better team. 2004? The Colts were above average, the 2004 Patriots were the best team fielded that decade. Lots...and...lots of snow certainly didn't help the Colts *ahem* WEATHER the butt whoopin to take place, either.

Then and since then Peyton has had mediocre or barely above mediocre teams at best. I'm being generous when I say that. To have done as well as he has speaks volumes. Brady had/has a great team and makes the most of it, that's for certain. How would he do if he weren't on a great team? He'd probably do well but beyond that, who knows?

Anywho, after we win 2 games this season it should speak volumes.

No Brady ----> Tough hit, but good enough to remain competitive.

No Manning -----> The Bog of Eternal Stench. (Whoever gets the reference gets a cookie)

[-JJ-]

I lol'd at the Lions preseason game... I forgot about that.

Peyton has run in to a few himself, yes. The Steelers game as you mentioned is one...and that 2004 Patriots team was the D of the decade. The only one close would have MAYBE been the 2000/2001 Ravens.

When facing difficult defenses, Tom Brady usually has a solid ST and D unit to help out. Also..you know...a competant coach helps. -_- Therein lies the joy of playing for a complete team. Although in the past few playoffs neither unit stepped up enough to help win the games for the Patriots. If this were the D from the early-mid 2000's Tom would probably have six rings by now. Even with subpar games the past 3 playoffs - it would have been enough to win. (Well, maybe not the Ravens game..that was ugly)

Peyton had and continues to have NO help in the other 2/3 main facets of the game. (Sans 2006 when the D showed up to play in the playoffs, FINALLY, and surprise surprise the Colts won it all) Along with that Browns game a few years ago when the D actually won the game. I was looking for the four horsemen in the sky but the apocalypse never did happen.

Peyton has pretty much had the lion's share of work on his shoulders every season and, quite frankly as good as he is he can't do it all on his own. Nobody can. Hence, only ONE ring during his tenure when 2/3 of the team showed up.

Like you said, a QB needs a great team to go far. The best overall team Manning has ever had wasn't even all of 2006 when the Colts won the SB. In 2003-2004 Peyton had a SOLID run game, o-line, receivers, TEs and coach. No defense. No ST. In 2006 the D anomalously came alive and for a brief stretch he had 2/3 of a team. Boom.

Unfortunately for Indy the Pats were just that much better. 2003 was close/mugging, but the Patriots were still the better team. 2004? The Colts were above average, the 2004 Patriots were the best team fielded that decade. Lots...and...lots of snow certainly didn't help the Colts *ahem* WEATHER the butt whoopin to take place, either.

Then and since then Peyton has had mediocre or barely above mediocre teams at best. I'm being generous when I say that. To have done as well as he has speaks volumes. Brady had/has a great team and makes the most of it, that's for certain. How would he do if he weren't on a great team? He'd probably do well but beyond that, who knows?

Sometimes I cringe when I hear about the great NE defenses of the early decade. Not many stars but they did play as a team,had BB and Crennel and so they were top 10. Lowest in points one of the SB years. So I guess it was great..but not like the players that were on the 85 Bears,70's Steelers ect. They had a lot of old vets who just played together.

I can't remember if the 04 Dline was that great but rather more a great coverage defense which 03 was, abeit a press defense:)

I disagree the colts Oline hasn't been good the last decade.PM had an Oline and quality WRs, That's where it stopped so he undoubtedly carried the team. I relate to PM as a Thoroughbred passer. Could TB carry a team with a good Oline and WRs..I don't know..at least compared to PM. But he in fact did in 02 where we couldn't stop the run, LT ran all over us which prompted BB to get Ted Washington the next season) and 05 he really did carry the team. Probably not quite the same standard as PM in that department.

I write the Ravens game off to one of those fluke days that sometimes happen. A rare breakout TD run to start it off and along with the football gods of the day the hole got quicker than you could shovel. It was over early on.

Jets Dline didn't bury Brady (unlike Giants and Lions) as he did have

time..there was just no one open and it was great Jets coverage schemes...though I will add bad NE play calling to enhance it. I counted 8 seconds once and still no open WR. what the heck?

[Moose Of Woe]

Sometimes I cringe when I hear about the great NE defenses of the early decade. Not many stars but they did play as a team,had BB and Crennel and so they were top 10. Lowest in points one of the SB years. So I guess it was great..but not like the players that were on the 85 Bears,70's Steelers ect. They had a lot of old vets who just played together.

I can't remember if the 04 Dline was that great but rather more a great coverage defense which 03 was, abeit a press defense:)

I disagree the colts Oline hasn't been good the last decade.PM had an Oline and quality WRs, That's where it stopped so he undoubtedly carried the team. I relate to PM as a thourobred passer. Could TB carry a team with a good Oline and WRs..I don't know..at least compared to PM. But he in fact did in 02 where we couldn't stop the run, LT ran all over us which prompted BB to get Ted Washington the next season) and 05 he really did carry the team. Probably not quite the same standard as PM in that department.

I write the Ravens game off to one of those fluke days that sometimes happen. A rare breakout TD run to start it off and along with the football gods of the day the hole got quicker than you could shovel. It was over early on.

Jets Dline didn't bury Brady (unlike Giants and Lions) as had time..there was just no one open and it was great Jets coverage schemes...though I will add bad NE play calling to enhance it.

All good points. The Ravens game..yeah...like I said that was just ugly. Whatever gods what were angered on that day struck with righteous fury against the Patriots. The Jets..I thought they rattled him quite a few times but I may be misremembering.

And oh man..Ted Washington...NOTHING MOVES MOUNT WASHINGTON!

That guy was the personification of man mountain. I suppose he still is, is he still in the league?

I'm gonna leave it here on a high note before things get too bickery, though. xD Good discussion/end Manning Vs Brady case file #867-5309.

[-JJ-]

All good points. The Ravens game..yeah...like I said that was just ugly. Whatever gods what were angered on that day struck with righteous fury against the Patriots. The Jets..I thought they rattled him quite a few times but I may be misremembering.

And oh man..Ted Washington...NOTHING MOVES MOUNT WASHINGTON! That guy was the personification of man mountain. I suppose he still is, is he still in the league?

I'm gonna leave it here on a high note before things get too bickery, though. xD Good discussion/end Manning Vs Brady case file #867-5309.

Ditto good discussuion. case file closed.

I think Washington played one or two more years after we cut him ..he was pretty old:)

[patsallday]

Oops double post. But since this is taking up space anyway...

Brady is the final piece of the NE machine. The one that turns it from a good team in to a juggernaut every season.

Manning IS the Colts machine. Period. The team goes from good/elite to THE PIT OF DESPAIR without him.

That being said, if I could have any QB in the league other than Peyton it would be Brady. (Honorable mentions: (Rodgers/Brees/Rivers) I think any of them would severely struggle to lead this team to a winning season, though. Let alone the playoffs or a SB.

soooooooooo...

you're saying brady, rodgers, brees, rivers couldn't win the afc south this year?

thank you for the good laugh.

[Moose Of Woe]

soooooooooo...

you're saying brady, rodgers, brees, rivers couldn't win the afc south this year?

thank you for the good laugh.

Well I wanted to end it on a high note, but I'll answer this before I go to bed.

With the Texans as they are? Playing behind the Colts O-line with no run game, no defense, special teams, or even COACH? With the entire season pinned more or less entirely on their shoulders? Absolutely not. They'd probably get buried.

You're welcome. I find it equally comical that you're under the impression they'd even survive the season.

[patsallday]

With the Texans as they are? On the Colts team? Absolutely not.

Also you're welcome/exit thread.

yeh the texans looked godly. great 2nd half. and no history of choking/finishing 8-8 every year.

/sarcasm off.

brady, rodgers, brees, rivers, roethlisberger, ryan, vick, eli, all lead the colts to the division title in the afc south.

jags and titans would be no threat either.

we get it. peyton is your everything.

but a whole offseason with any of those QBs would guarentee winning the lowly afc south #truestory

[P-Money]

I gotta agree with Patsallday. To actually believe that any of those QB's couldn't do well on our team is foolish. The same could also be said for the Pats in the AFC east. Since the resurgence of the Jets the last two years that division has been weak also. Any of those named QB's would easily dominate that division as well.

With that being said I look at Brady/Manning as the Bird/Magic of the NFL. Both are great players and have done wonders for the sport. I will say we have yet to witness the Micheal Jordan of the NFL!!!

[Yehoodi]

OK, guys, bear in mind that I am still trying to learn this game. So , take it easy on me if this is a dumb question.

Why does a QB's passing yards include YAC? The QB didn't pass that far, the receiver was the one who got the additional yardage.

BTW, this has nothing to do with Tom Brady. All QB's get credit for YAC and I am just wondering why. :???:

Shecolt, I see some have responded to ur post, i guess i'll add my two cents . . . maybe they keep the YAC included in the overall passing yards as passing yards have been a stats since the inception of football . . . I am not sure when the YAC were started to be tracked, but in order to keep some consistency among the record books, my guess is that the NFL did not want to separate and split up the traditional passing yards into "QB yards" and "WR yards" becuase that would skew the records books in the favor to the old timers (modern rules set aside) . . . so that could be one reason, just speculation on my part . . .

a second reason might be the fact that a QB passing yards really has a team element already involved in the over passing yards . . . oline needs to block, WR got to get open, got to catch the ball and got to run with it . . . so the yac is just another portion of the passing yards stats along with others that are not necessary directly related to the qb

and lastly, i think that a good QB puts the WR in a position to get those yacs, if the QB hits the WR in stride, he will likely get more yacs then if the ball is thrown behind the WR . . .so to that extent the QB sould get some credite

and lastly (2), it is probably easiest to administor as just one stat. . . but it would be nice if one could find a website that separates the passing yards stats into "passing yards to catch" and "passing yards after catch"

[-JJ-]

I made a mistake. Polian said YPC (yards per catch) not YAC was the only important stat.

[chad72]

The key is, the Colts have gotten by with lower O-line picks and higher skill position players betting on Manning's quick release more often which has worked for them for the most part. The Pats, on the other hand, have gotten better and higher O-line picks, and that has worked for them. But with Manning getting older, the strategy that the Pats adopted is proving to be more time tested, much like how John Elway got more O-line help towards the end of his career. I wish the Colts would have done that, to be honest.

I don't care how good your skill position players are. If your O-line cannot protect you, no matter how many high draft pick wideouts you have, any QB will have issues getting the ball to them. The Giants proved that with their unreal pass rush in the Pats-Giants SB because that Pats offense was one of a kind in NFL history. O-line protection and performance trumps skill position players out on the field, especially against elite Ds. It is like the pitcher being more powerful than the hitter come playoff time in baseball .

Plus, if your QB is a great one like the Brady or Manning kind, if you protect them, they can make a lower draft pick that has even a small ounce of WR/TE skill look good (Collie, Garcon on the Colts side, Patten, Branch etc. on the Pats side).

[-JJ-]

. The Giants proved that with their unreal pass rush in the Pats-Giants SB because that Pats offense was one of a kind in NFL history. O-line protection and performance trumps skill position players out on the field, especially against elite Ds. It is like the pitcher being more powerful than the hitter come playoff time in baseball .

Yep..a great pitcher will always shut down great hitting.

A great D line will always shutdown a great QB.

[uljaz]

a great pitcher will always shut down great hitting.

False. If what you said is true, there would be numerous great pitchers who never lost a game....

[-JJ-]

False. If what you said is true, there would be numerous great pitchers who never lost a game....

nope. did I say lose a game? You got to stay away from from the all too common absolutes here.

A 300 hitter will more often than not hit less than 300 against a great pitcher. Conversely he will feast on a bad pitcher. How do you think great pitchers give up fewer hits? Have a lower era?

In any sport, a great defense will shut down a great offense.A goalie in hockey. A shut down corner will shut down a great WR. Why do you think they call them a shut down corner?

[IcEWoLF]

Pats need better pass rush... I wasn't impressed from our pass rushers... Wilfork was the only one that did a great job on our d line..

[-JJ-]

Pats need better pass rush... I wasn't impressed from our pass rushers... Wilfork was the only one that did a great job on our d line..

Is it..or is the emphasis on a passing league the culprit?

I thought, at least compared to the last few years, the pass rush was good. Not including the sacks, there were plenty of pressure rushes.

[Blue Horseshoe]

Pats need better pass rush... I wasn't impressed from our pass rushers... Wilfork was the only one that did a great job on our d line..

I was pretty impressed by Wilfork and Haynesworth on running plays though. Both of them kept two blockers occupied on nearly every play which will free the linebackers to flow to the ball once they learn their new assignments. It could be a very good run defense.

[patsallday]

I was pretty impressed by Wilfork and Haynesworth on running plays though. Both of them kept two blockers occupied on nearly every play which will free the linebackers to flow to the ball once they learn their new assignments. It could be a very good run defense.

pats are always solid against the run.

it's the passing d we always worry about.