Did Irsay Handicap The Franchise ?

[presto123]

Just wondering. I don't know any of the details on how the contract is structured. Does Peyton make the same money the whole time he is out? And what if he is never able to come back? My fear is that Irsay jumped the gun in the rush to get him signed and didn't consult with every medical expert he could find on the possibility of this condition being career ending. Maybe there should have been a clause in the contract about Peyton's condition so it doesn't handicap the franchise for the next 5 years. Would we even have the money to sign a first round replacement QB? Somebody that knows more than me please chime in. This has me concerned a little bit.

[presto123]

I may get blasted for this post but it wasn't my original idea. I heard them talking about this tonight on National radio. Didn't catch everything that was said though.

[MAC]

Just wondering. I don't know any of the details on how the contract is structured. Does Peyton make the same money the whole time he is out? And what if he is never able to come back? My fear is that Irsay jumped the gun in the rush to get him signed and didn't consult with every medical expert he could find on the possibility of this condition being career ending. Maybe there should have been a clause in the contract about Peyton's condition so it doesn't handicap the franchise for the next 5 years. Would we even have the money to sign a first round replacement QB? Somebody that knows more than me please chime in. This has me concerned a little bit.

I don't really like all the "chicken little" threads, and I'm no cap expert, but I do have two thoughts on the matter.

1) I'm sure he gets paid whether he is playing or not - even on injured reserve. If he retires I think that the team would only be on the hook for any guaranteed funds that have already accrued. Whether it impacts next year at all I'm not sure.

2) Pride being what it is, Peyton might well void the contract if he has to walk away without playing a down. With all that we know about him (including the fact that he is independently wealthy) he may not want to get paid tens of millions of dollars for contributing nothing. Or maybe they negotiate a settlement, or it gets morphed into a personal services contract and he stays on as QB coach or something (although those options would have some salary cap implications).

Most of us would rather not think about this thank you very much.

[presto123]

I don't really like all the "chicken little" threads, and I'm no cap expert, but I do have two thoughts on the matter.

1) I'm sure he gets paid whether he is playing or not - even on injured reserve. If he retires I think that the team would only be on the hook for any guaranteed funds that have already accrued. Whether it impacts next year at all I'm not sure.

2) Pride being what it it, Peyton might well void the contract if he has to walk away without playing a down. With all that we know about him (including the fact that he is independently wealthy) he may not want to get paid tens of millions of dollars for contributing nothing. Or maybe they negotiate a settlement, or it's gets morphed into a personal services contract and he stays on as QB coach or something (although those options would have some salary cap implications).

Most of us would rather not think about this thank you very much.

I know. It's something that we don't want to have to consider. I didn't even consider it until I heard the radio on my way home.

[jcdavey]

even if he never plays another game, for what he's done for the league and your organization, it's a lovely parting gift if that's what it ends up being

[Malakai432]

It's a completely valid topic, but very impossible to tell what would happen. Not sure what would go through Mannings head as well as the organization. Some sort of deal very well could get worked out.

IMO Manning will come back this year. I'm not buying all the doom & gloom scenarios yet.

[ruksak]

So long as the issue was resolved within the confines of this contract year, Manning would be owed a phat $23 million dollars. Or at least this is my understanding. We have some cap savvy members that may be able to add clarity.

And yes, Irsay would have set our roster back in a menacing way that would ripple for years if we enter next year and then Manning calls it quits while absconding with another $23 million. I poured out in another thread yesterday about my feelings toward signing a 36 year old QB with a cracked neck to a $90 million contract knowing he was injured in such a dubious way.

There most certainly should have been some unique language in the contract addressing Manning's condition to provide an out for our franchise. I found it quite suspect that they inked the deal and then a week later the true scope of Manning's ordeal started to leak out. Very suspicious. My belief is that there was some under the table dealings going on, very hush hush stuff that we will likely never hear about. Something, don't know exactly what, but something is fishy about that.

For those whom aren't aware, a $23 million hit on the cap in a singular year is an extraordinary loss. However teams deal with this all the time. Manning, being the consummate pro, most likely wouldn't poise himself as such a burden on our club by drawing this thing out solely for monetary gain. Heck...he already did fantastic at working with Irsay for less than Manning could have reaped.

[Quantum88]

And yes, Irsay would have set our roster back in a menacing way that would ripple for years if we enter next year and then Manning calls it quits while absconding with another $23 million. I poured out in another thread yesterday about my feelings toward signing a 36 year old QB with a cracked neck to a $90 million contract knowing he was injured in such a dubious way.

There most certainly should have been some unique language in the contract addressing Manning's condition to provide an out for our franchise. I found it quite suspect that they inked the deal and then a week later the true scope of Manning's ordeal started to leak out. Very suspicious. My belief is that there was some under the table dealings going on, very hush hush stuff that we will likely never hear about. Something, don't know exactly what, but something is fishy about that.

For those whom aren't aware, a $23 million hit on the cap in a singular year is an extraordinary loss. However teams deal with this all the time. Manning, being the consummate pro, most likely wouldn't poise himself as such a burden on our club by drawing this thing out solely for monetary gain. Heck...he already did fantastic at working with Irsay for less than Manning could have reaped.

The last time I looked, Jim Irsay is the owner of the Colts. While we may feel closely tied to the club, it is Irsay's to handicap anyway he chooses.

[Balzer40]

I certainly am not a cap expert by any means and I also do not by into this "career ending" nonsense(at least not yet), but I would think that if Manning is forced into retirement by this injury then the team is no longer on the hook except for the guaranteed money(and im not even sure about that). I think the media is acting as if Manning shattered his neck into tiny fragments and he underwent a futuristic surgery that is relitively unknown. To my knowledge this was a simple procedure and his nerves just aren't healthy yet. Unless this was a lot more serious that what us fans think I don't know where all this career ending crap is coming from.

[Smitto]

The colts had every reason to believe that peyton would be heald going into training camp, its not their fault at all. Peyton was always a fast healer but this time things just didnt go the way the colts wanted, nobody to blame in this situation.

[Smitto]

The colts had every reason to believe that peyton would be heald going into training camp, its not their fault at all. Peyton was always a fast healer but this time things just didnt go the way the colts wanted, nobody to blame in this situation.

[Moose Of Woe]

I would hope Manning would not do that to the team, and instead take substantially less as a parting gift.

It wouldn't seem in his character to do something like that and leave the team in a financial pit.

[eaglejoe8]

I thought I read or heard on Sirius radio that Manning's deal is guaranteed every season he passes a physical. If that's the case, the team wouldn't be on the hook for anything aside from anything guaranteed beyond those perameters. If he retired on his own accord, then I would think the team also would be on the hook for nothing. Of course this all depends on the accuracy of what I heard shortly after the deal was done.

[JoKeR]

Thanks for the clarification EagleJoe.

I think we should stop punishing ourselves. Have you guys seen locker room interviews of our guys. There moving forward and seem genuinely excited. Lets back them in their excitedness!

[chad72]

If Manning is out for the season and if the start of next season does not look good either, I'd go ahead and sign Carson Palmer out of retirement as a 1 year franchise tag level monetary commitment (rather pay him $10 mil. than Collins $10 mil., to be honest due to age).

If the start of next season looks good, of course Peyton is the guy, goes without saying .

But right now, it is about getting behind Kerry Collins.

[polian_pundit_has_returned]

This organization has become a joke. Irsay is the new Jerry Jones with his nonsense tweets. Polian blows the perfect season so our starters will be ready for the pro bowl. No care for the fans all about the money. Look at the steelers packers falcons, lets build a team like they do. ONe good note tressal will be the coach next year as caldwell will be the fall guy for this season. That must be why they kept gonzalez around. by the way good luck jerry hughes and donald brown you are our future. Thnks bill you egotistical joker.

[UMLBB10]

I certainly am not a cap expert by any means and I also do not by into this "career ending" nonsense(at least not yet), but I would think that if Manning is forced into retirement by this injury then the team is no longer on the hook except for the guaranteed money(and im not even sure about that). I think the media is acting as if Manning shattered his neck into tiny fragments and he underwent a futuristic surgery that is relitively unknown. To my knowledge this was a simple procedure and his nerves just aren't healthy yet. Unless this was a lot more serious that what us fans think I don't know where all this career ending crap is coming from.

the colts would be on the hook for the guaranteed money from a cap standpoint. the hit would be spread out over the life of the contract.

[Larry Horseman]

This is basically a restatement of what I said in another thread yesterday in regards to PM's contract (with more information):

If PM plays out his contract, his actual salary cap hit will never be $23 million a year. I know its what they said was the average of each of the first years but that's not the reality of the situation (see here: http://18to88.com/20...-90million.html). Of the $90 million contract, $42 million is guaranteed signing bonus money. Each year, the contract includes a base salary and a portion of the guaranteed signing bonus money (I'm not a cap expert but am pretty sure the amount of the guaranteed portion that counts towards the cap each year is determined by the Colts and does not necessarily reflect how much of the guaranteed money they have actually paid PM). For this year, his actual cap hit is $16.4 million.

According to Profootballtalk.com (http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Indianapolis-Colts-Peyton-Manning-injury-owner-Jim-Irsay-tweet-090811), if he never played again, the Colts would owe him a total of $55 million. That means that this year we are claiming to pay him a base salary of $13 million and wrapping $3.4 million of the $42 million guaranteed into his cap hit. So if he never takes another snap, we will have to spread $38.6 million of the guaranteed over the next four years. Spending nearly $10 million cap dollars towards a player not playing would obviously kill the Colts cap and really handicap the franchise. This is obviously worst case scenario and I'm not sure if some sort of injury settlement could be reached if PM really can't ever play again.

As for the question of Irsay jumping the gun, I can only hope that they did their due diligence with the injury. It seems like everyone involved in the situation is really surprised that it has came to this point. Irsay made a business decision to sign PM, and if he didn't I can only imagine the fan fallout. I guess it was a darned if you do, darned if you don't scenario. Could Irsay's decision turn out to be terrible? Yes, it looks bad that we will pay a player missing a substantial portion, if not all of the season, so much money this year, and if he never plays again it will be devastating. Would keeping the franchise tag on PM this year also been a bad decision? Yes, since his cap hit would have been about $7 million more we would not have been able to sign a number of players that we did. Let's just hope PM misses 4-6 games this year and can play out the contract.

More than anything, it's just terrible we are having these conversations and makes me realize just how lucky we have been for the last decade plus.

[Steagles]

Not in the least. He signed the best QB in the NFL. Ok, Manning will be out awhile, but he still has some good years in him.

[ruksak]

The last time I looked, Jim Irsay is the owner of the Colts. While we may feel closely tied to the club, it is Irsay's to handicap anyway he chooses.

Do I have to get out a crayon and explain what a figure of speech is?

Did you really think I was under the impression that I had partial ownership of the team?

[gagirl89]

No. Blame Peytons nerves, they're the only thing with any control right now. No one else

[21isSuperman]

I'm sure Irsay consulted with medical personnel to get as much info as he could. You don't sign a massive contract without knowing for sure you will get results. This latest news with Manning is recent though; up until the contract signing (if I remember right), many were saying that Manning would be on the field when he was scheduled to be. Not many people thought he would have the setbacks

[ColtsBlueFL]

I just heard on Mike & Mike that There's an out clause for the Colts in Manning's contract. If the Colts cut Peyton by Feb 5, of 2012 then they would only be on the hook for around 26 mil. After that date there is another 28 mil option they will have to cover. OTOH, nobody is really expecting any of this to matter at this point, but we'll all know more by January 2012.

[icf]

IMO -- unless things go REEEALLLY bad I dont see anyway the Colts are in a position to cut ties with Manning next Feb.

Even if he never plays another down, I'd expect him to go to camp next July and give it a go.

I am one that accepts the fact that there is at least a chance that he never plays again and don't expect him to play at all this season......however, I dont think that Manning (or the Colts) are going to be ready to write his career off in less than 5 months.

[Larry Horseman]

I just heard on Mike & Mike that There's an out clause for the Colts in Manning's contract. If the Colts cut Peyton by Feb 5, of 2012 then they would only be on the hook for around 26 mil. After that date there is another 28 mil option they will have to cover. OTOH, nobody is really expecting any of this to matter at this point, but we'll all know more by January 2012.

Heard the same thing...my apologies for my post yesterday about us having to pay $55 million if he was done, but that's what was being reported.

I guess this new insight means that: 1) Irsay isn't stupid (although Manning didn't have to pass a physical); and 2) If Manning never plays another snap, the franchise isn't handicapped. They will know his status for the future by February.

Let's hope it doesn't matter and PM returns as the player we remember, but it's nice to know they have an out if worst case scenario happens.

[GatorColts]

Not in the least. He signed the best QB in the NFL. Ok, Manning will be out awhile, but he still has some good years in him.

I agree with you. He is still playing at an elite level if you ask me. There is not one QB in the league I would take over him. Let him heal this year and let him come back and finish his career as a Colt!

[Peyton and Eli fan]

Some people had the impression that Manning took a long time to sign his contract because he was holding out for more money. I have the feeling that he was trying to balance wanting to sign and not wanting to take advantage of the Colts knowing his situation was uncertain. Sounds like they came up with something to protect everyone.

[Jason_]

IMO -- unless things go REEEALLLY bad I dont see anyway the Colts are in a position to cut ties with Manning next Feb.

Even if he never plays another down, I'd expect him to go to camp next July and give it a go.

I am one that accepts the fact that there is at least a chance that he never plays again and don't expect him to play at all this season......however, I dont think that Manning (or the Colts) are going to be ready to write his career off in less than 5 months.

The out clause wouldn't mean they would have to cut ties with him or write off his career. If things aren't going as well as planned when the time comes then they can exercise the out clause and then re-work a new contract with him. I have never gotten the impression that Manning wants to leave Indy and no way the FO lets him go without a fight, but if the situation warrants it, they can opt out of his current contract and then structure a new one.

[Jef]

What about Bill Polian? He looks like a clown for going into the season with Larry, Moe and Curly as Peyton Manning's backups. The Packers had good backups for Brett Favre even when he was in his prime. Some of his backups included Jim McMahon, Mark Brunell, Steve Bono, Aaron Brooks and Matt Hasselbeck. Then they had the vision to draft Favre's successor Aaron Rodgers. Kerry Collins was a good quarterback. But he is past his prime and a poor match for the Colts offense. He can't make quick reads and quick throws. Did the Colts management think they would be able to carry on forever without an adequate backup for Peyton Manning? Even the greatest athletes eventually succumb to age or injury.

[GoColts8818]

What about Bill Polian? He looks like a clown for going into the season with Larry, Moe and Curly as Peyton Manning's backups. The Packers had good backups for Brett Favre even when he was in his prime. Some of his backups included Jim McMahon, Mark Brunell, Steve Bono, Aaron Brooks and Matt Hasselbeck. Then they had the vision to draft Favre's successor Aaron Rodgers. Kerry Collins was a good quarterback. But he is past his prime and a poor match for the Colts offense. He can't make quick reads and quick throws. Did the Colts management think they would be able to carry on forever without an adequate backup for Peyton Manning? Even the greatest athletes eventually succumb to age or injury.

Our approach to the back up QB spot worked for 13 years. You see how much Kerry Collins costs? That's how much it would have cost to have a back up all those years. That would have cost us players like Clark, Bethea, Brackett and other key players to our team over the years. Is that really worth it? I have a feeling had we had a big name back up fans would have spent more time crying about having a big name back up QB who never played and how it was costing us good players.

Also by far the longest back up QB in Favre's career was Doug Pederson. Most of those guys you listed name Hasselbeck and Brunell were Favre's back up when no one knew who they were. Bono and McMahon both did it at the end of their careers when no one else in the NFL wanted them not unlike what we did with Shaun King one year and were not anything close to what they were.

Chris Polian told Peter King earlier this off-season in 2008 they were looking at a vet back up QB because of Manning's injury situation and the guy told them he didn't want to come to Indianapolis because he would rot for a year behind Manning. Being the backup in Indianapolis isn't a job most QBs want because you pretty much don't play for a full year, not just in games but in practices as well. Manning was known for taking every snap even in practice. So even when the Colts looked for a guy it doesn't mean one wanted to come here and if someone doesn't want to come here the Colts can't make them sign.

Also frankly I think the Colts had a "Doug Pederson" or an average NFL back up QB in Jim Sorgi.

Who out there that the Colts could get would you rather have over Kerry Collins? There is no such thing as a good fit for the Colts offense in a back up QB because no one else is Peyton Manning. Kerry Collins is a proven starter. Polian and Caldwell have both worked with him in the past. He knows our division. He's studied the Colts for however long he's been in Tennessee. He was the best fit that was out there. It's not like Drew Brees was out there and the Colts passed on him for Kerry Collins.

Also there was a report shortly after Collins was signed that the Colts did go after Matt Hasselbeck but he didn't want to come to Indianapolis, again you can't make a player play for you if he doesn't want too.

Polian has handled this the best way he could without a crystal ball. When news about Manning has come out he's reacted accordingly. Remember up till the Redskins game in the pre-season everyone expected Manning to be back opening day. That's when Irsay said for the first time he might not be ready and the Colts had Collins in here three days later. Frankly the Colts have made the best of a very very very bad situation.

[Jason_]

I agree with GoColts..they've done the best they could with the information they had at the time. And if the Colts would have gone after a higher priced backup QB then I can guarantee there would have been a lot of moaning and groaning about how they're wasting too much money on a backup behind Ironman Peyton Manning. You can't have it both ways. The backup QB is generally going to be cheap or he's going to be good....very seldom are you going to have one that's both.

As for who else they could have gone after that is available? Personally I'd have rather seen Marc Bulger than Kerry Collins. However, for all we know they could have also contacted Bulger and he simply had no interest. I've never been a big fan of Kerry Collins, but he is the guy they signed so they have faith in him and I will put my full support behind him.

[GoColts8818]

I agree with GoColts..they've done the best they could with the information they had at the time. And if the Colts would have gone after a higher priced backup QB then I can guarantee there would have been a lot of moaning and groaning about how they're wasting too much money on a backup behind Ironman Peyton Manning. You can't have it both ways. The backup QB is generally going to be cheap or he's going to be good....very seldom are you going to have one that's both.

As for who else they could have gone after that is available? Personally I'd have rather seen Marc Bulger than Kerry Collins. However, for all we know they could have also contacted Bulger and he simply had no interest. I've never been a big fan of Kerry Collins, but he is the guy they signed so they have faith in him and I will put my full support behind him.

That's why I laughed so hard when all the fans complained about Collins contract when we signed him. That was the exact reason we didn't sign a big name back up for all those years. The bottom line people want a big name back up but they want to pay him what we pay Curtis Painter and it doesn't work that way.

See I am the reverse of you I have never been a big fan of Bulger. To me Collins just made sense for the reasons I spelled out in the above post.

[Jason_]

That's why I laughed so hard when all the fans complained about Collins contract when we signed him. That was the exact reason we didn't sign a big name back up for all those years. The bottom line people want a big name back up but they want to pay him what we pay Curtis Painter and it doesn't work that way.

See I am the reverse of you I have never been a big fan of Bulger. To me Collins just made sense for the reasons I spelled out in the above post.

right and I definitely agree with what you said about Collins...his history with Polian and Caldwell as well as familiarity with the AFC South definitely can't be overlooked. I don't have anything necessarily against Collins...he's just one of those guys that I never really cared about one way or another but the teams he typically played for always seemed to be teams who were playing teams I was cheering for. So in a transference sort of way he was always the enemy even though I didn't view him personally as the enemy ala a Tom Brady. lol Hope I explained that decently enough.

As far as skill sets go, I say Bulger because the Rams offense he took over and ran was a closer match to the Indy offense than any Collins has run. Collins has always been on a power-running oriented team with passing being secondary whereas the Rams were a more explosive, past-first minded offense at least for a while before Steven Jackson. Plus Collins' long wind-up isn't going to help with an Oline who is struggling to find its identity. Manning avoided so many sacks last year by taking 1 and 3 step drops and firing the ball out quickly, which is something Collins physically simply can't do. That just means our Oline is going to have to work just a little bit harder though.

Like I said, I don't have anything personally against Collins and we certainly could do a heck of a lot worse. If I'd had my choice, I'd have tried with Bulger but Collins definitely has to be the next best option for someone to come in and make an impact quickly. An argument certainly could have been made for Garrard if he'd been released earlier and same could be said of Carson Palmer if the Bengals showed any signs of wanting to let him go. However, since those options weren't available I think we are now in a good spot with Collins.

[number28]

So you are saying that Irsay was supposed to insult our leader and the heart of the team by not signing him? By telling him that it is risky for us to sign you and that your career is on the verge of extinction? Why slap PM in the face like that?

We have insulted many of our great players throughout the years. The last one was Bob Sanders who is a good bet to win NFL Defensive Player of the year with San Diego. Why should we keep doing this to our players?

[presto123]

So you are saying that Irsay was supposed to insult our leader and the heart of the team by not signing him? By telling him that it is risky for us to sign you and that your career is on the verge of extinction? Why slap PM in the face like that?

We have insulted many of our great players throughout the years. The last one was Bob Sanders who is a good bet to win NFL Defensive Player of the year with San Diego. Why should we keep doing this to our players?

I didn't say that. The Colts ended up doing exactly what they should. They put an "out" clause in the contract just in case this could be career ending or something. If Peyton plays he will be rewarded accordingly. If not he will still be rewarded but not at the expense of crippling the franchise. Not hard to understand. And I have little sympathy for Sanders. We overpaid him for years(because he was out most of that time and still cashing in) and instead of taking a small pay cut he bolted at first chance. He actually let me down a little.

[Jason_]

So you are saying that Irsay was supposed to insult our leader and the heart of the team by not signing him? By telling him that it is risky for us to sign you and that your career is on the verge of extinction? Why slap PM in the face like that?

We have insulted many of our great players throughout the years. The last one was Bob Sanders who is a good bet to win NFL Defensive Player of the year with San Diego. Why should we keep doing this to our players?

If they had been hesitant about re-signing him then they'd have had every right to be especially in light of the current circumstances. You don't just sign a new contract with a guy for $90 million because of what he did for you before.

As for Bob Sanders, I don't see how you could say we insulted him?!? They made him the highest paid safety in the league at the time they gave him a new contract and each year they kept him on the roster hoping he would get healthy...or that thins would change the next year. They could have cut him any of those years and saved some money but they didn't. When his contract came up, what would you suggest we have done? Sign him to a new contract based on what his potential is, pay him for what he "deserves" and then roll the dice to see if this can finally be the year he stays healthy? Personally I'd have cut him 1-2 years ago but they decided to take a chance and we blew a lot of money on a guy who didn't do much of anything for us. Don't get me wrong, Sanders is a beast when he's healthy and one of the best safeties in the game...but since he can't find a way to stay healthy

[Jef]

GoColts8818 obviously knows his football and is a big Colts fan. He refers to the the team as "our". Does he have an official affiliation with the team? Maybe I did not express myself clearly. But I stand by what I said that the Packers addressed Brett Favre's backups much better than the Colts addressed Peyton Manning's backups. Yes, the Colts saved valuable cap money by not having a proven veteran behind Peyton. It was a gamble and their luck finally ran out.

Yes, Favre's longest term backup was Doug Pederson. One of the reasons his tenure was so long was that he was close personal friends with Favre. I was never impressed with Jim Sorgi. I have never seen a guy who played so seldomly hurt so often. How did he get hurt? Did he cut himself on a clipboard? Did he fall off the bench? After being released by the Colts Sorgi held a clipboard for Peyton's brother Eli, injured his shoulder and is now out of football. Yes, the Packers had Mark Brunell before he was known. But it shows they were properly addressing the position of backup quarterback. They drafted Brunell in the fifth round. Then two years later they traded him to Jacksonville for a a 3rd round and a 5th round pick. Now that is how you run a franchise. After three seasons in Green Bay they traded Hasselbeck to Seattle for draft picks.

The Packers had Kurt Warner in training camp in 1994 but he didn't make the team. They went with Brunell and Ty Detmer as Favre's backups. Warner would be a great fit in the Colts offense but I believe he is happily retired. And I really think quarterbacks need training camp. Kerry Collins has his strong points. He can throw the ball down the field and likes to get it to his wideouts. He threw to his wideouts a lot in New York, but not as much in Tennessee. Before Collins was quarterback of the Giants Kent Graham took the snaps. Some fans referred to him as king of the dink and dunk. I like David Garrard but it would be a while before he can learn the offense and help the Colts. Tiki Barber is still looking for work. Maybe the Colts can sign Tiki to run the option. I am joking, of course.

[GoColts8818]

GoColts8818 obviously knows his football and is a big Colts fan. He refers to the the team as "our". Does he have an official affiliation with the team? Maybe I did not express myself clearly. But I stand by what I said that the Packers addressed Brett Favre's backups much better than the Colts addressed Peyton Manning's backups. Yes, the Colts saved valuable cap money by not having a proven veteran behind Peyton. It was a gamble and their luck finally ran out.

Yes, Favre's longest term backup was Doug Pederson. One of the reasons his tenure was so long was that he was close personal friends with Favre. I was never impressed with Jim Sorgi. I have never seen a guy who played so seldomly hurt so often. How did he get hurt? Did he cut himself on a clipboard? Did he fall off the bench? After being released by the Colts Sorgi held a clipboard for Peyton's brother Eli, injured his shoulder and is now out of football. Yes, the Packers had Mark Brunell before he was known. But it shows they were properly addressing the position of backup quarterback. They drafted Brunell in the fifth round. Then two years later they traded him to Jacksonville for a a 3rd round and a 5th round pick. Now that is how you run a franchise. After three seasons in Green Bay they traded Hasselbeck to Seattle for draft picks.

The Packers had Kurt Warner in training camp in 1994 but he didn't make the team. They went with Brunell and Ty Detmer as Favre's backups. Warner would be a great fit in the Colts offense but I believe he is happily retired. And I really think quarterbacks need training camp. Kerry Collins has his strong points. He can throw the ball down the field and likes to get it to his wideouts. He threw to his wideouts a lot in New York, but not as much in Tennessee. Before Collins was quarterback of the Giants Kent Graham took the snaps. Some fans referred to him as king of the dink and dunk. I like David Garrard but it would be a while before he can learn the offense and help the Colts. Tiki Barber is still looking for work. Maybe the Colts can sign Tiki to run the option. I am joking, of course.

Yes I do say we or our from time-to-time and your right I probably shouldn't, I don't work for the Colts but I have worked in sports radio before so I know I shouldn't do that because I am not a part of the team. However you are kidding yourself if you think I am the only person on a team message board to refer to their team as we or our. So to me that's just arguing word choice which doesn't change the point I was making.

The Packers didn't do a much better job than the Colts did, like I said Doug Pederson was Favre's back up for a lot of years and frankly he's a lot like Jim Sorgi who the Colts had for years. I don't think Pederson stayed so long because he was Favre's "friend" if you notice as soon as they drafted Rodgers and were comfortable with him they cut Pederson. I think they kept him because like Sorgi he was cheap, knew the system, and like Sorgi with Manning could help Favre see things he was missing on the field. In a lot of ways Pederson was to the Packers what Sorgi was to the Colts. You can't really argue the Rodgers case because he just feel into the Packers lap. Also I think in a year or two you are going to see the Colts draft their next QB and then the Colts will be in a spot just like the Packers when they had Rodgers.

Aaron Rodgers doesn't really count either because he was never on the "roster" he was on their practice squad who they released after one season. Brooks didn't prove he could play QB till he went to the Saints the following year. Hasselbeck was a 6th round pick just like Jim Sorgi or Curtis Painter. He just turned bout to be a better player. Brunell was a fifth round pick only a round higher than Sorgi or Painter. He was also drafted in 1993 only a year after Favre came to Green Bay and was taken before the Packers really knew what they had in Favre and right after they had just lost Don Majkowski to the Colts. So in a lot of ways the Packers took the same approach to the back up QB spot that the Colts did they just happened to draft a better player.

Also, you are ignoring what I got from the Peter King article where he talked to Chris Polian during camp and he told the story about trying to get a bigger name back up in 2008 and being told by that player he didn't want to come here. Like Dan Dakich likes to say you don't know what you don't know. Maybe the Colts stuck with Sorgi for all those years because someone better didn't want to come here and they didn't want to start all over with a rookie. Once it became clear that Sorgi did have medical issues they did go out and get another QB in Painter. You can argue they should have gotten someone else but it's not like the Colts didn't try.

Yes Warner would have been nice but you said it, Kurt Warner is retired and doesn't seem to want to come back. Collins did. Again when we got Collins there wasn't really a better option out there to go get. Also part of the reason Collins didn't throw to his WR with the Titans is that they weren't that good. Collins has never had the weapons he's going to have here. I am kinda excited to see what he can do with them.

Again I am failing to see your point about how Polian has failed us (us being the fans) on this front? What he did for 13 years worked and let us keep star players. You can't tell me that fans would have been up in arms if we had let a guy like Dallas Clark walk because we were paying for a big name back up QB that we never used? People were complaining about how much money it cost to bring Collins in this year. I can only guess what they would be like if we were paying for one we never used. Also worth noting for the first years of Peyton's career we did keep a decent back up on the roster in Kelly Holcomb, Brock Huard, and, Mark Rypien. Once it became clear we didn't really need them they chose to use that money on other players that we did use. Smart choice and like I said what the Colts have done with the back up spot has worked for 13 years and if Kerry Collins doesn't go out there and lead us to like a 1-15 record or something might work this year. Again, once it became clear it was a need Polian went out and addressed it. I'd say Polian wasn't doing his job if he had ignored the QB situation this year and didn't sign someone like Collins and just stuck with Painter and Orvlosky. However he didn't, he went out and got the best option that was on the market.

[everybodysgotone]

Just wondering. I don't know any of the details on how the contract is structured. Does Peyton make the same money the whole time he is out? And what if he is never able to come back? My fear is that Irsay jumped the gun in the rush to get him signed and didn't consult with every medical expert he could find on the possibility of this condition being career ending. Maybe there should have been a clause in the contract about Peyton's condition so it doesn't handicap the franchise for the next 5 years. Would we even have the money to sign a first round replacement QB? Somebody that knows more than me please chime in. This has me concerned a little bit.

Rare for me, but didn't read the thread responses.

Answer - No, Irsay didn't handicap the team with this Manning contract. He put us in position to win with Manning, which how we have lived and died for most of the past 13yrs. The team will do the best it can with the 53 who are taking the field.....and I don't think it will be near as bad as some think. If he never plays again Irsay will get his money back and we'll begin building a team without Peyton Manning.

[colts89]

remember Joe again and his unpredictablity of his nerve injury? . Manning is more severe, but it is not something he shouldn't be able to come back as a QB if a a RB could