4-3 Or 3-4 Defense

[OLD FAN MAN]

Does anyone know, do we do better against a 4-3 or 3-4 defense or does it matter?

[Smitto]

Under peyton the colts have done much better against a 4-3 but who knows that may change since peyton isnt taking the snap in wk 1.

[Guest BlueShoe]

Does anyone know, do we do better against a 4-3 or 3-4 defense or does it matter?

We have most of our success against the 3-4 defenses in the second half of games. It takes a little while to figure out what they're doing sometimes and then Peyton just starts ripping them up.

[Smitto]

We have most of our success against the 3-4 defenses in the second half of games. It takes a little while to figure out what they're doing sometimes and then Peyton just starts ripping them up.

That is not true Chargers, Pats, Cowboys, Steelers they all have 3-4 defenses and peyton rarely ripped them up. The colts have better success against the 4-3 and thats a well known fact.

[Guest BlueShoe]

That is not true Chargers, Pats, Cowboys, Steelers they all have 3-4 defenses and peyton rarely ripped them up. The colts have better success against the 4-3 and thats a well known fact.

I never said that we had better success against 3-4 teams than we do the 4-3.

I said - VERY CLEARLY - We have better success against the 3-4 in the second half of games.

[OLD FAN MAN]

We have most of our success against the 3-4 defenses in the second half of games. It takes a little while to figure out what they're doing sometimes and then Peyton just starts ripping them up.

which is easier to run against or does it matter?

[Guest BlueShoe]

which is easier to run against or does it matter?

I would say we haven't ran against any defense very well in a long time, but if the 3-4 has the right personnel then they are near impossible to beat on the ground.

[OLD FAN MAN]

I would say we haven't ran against any defense very well in a long time, but if the 3-4 has the right personnel then they are near impossible to beat on the ground.

then the texans may be hard to run against, i hope caldwell has a good plan.

[Smitto]

I never said that we had better success against 3-4 teams than we do the 4-3.

I said - VERY CLEARLY - We have better success against the 3-4 in the second half of games.

That also can be argued to not be true, jets, chargers, 9ers, packers, steelers just to name a few teams the colts have trouble with even in the 2nd half. I think its more of a familiarity with a team when it comes to the 3-4 on how peyton comes and play. The prime example was the steelers colts playoff game, colts had so much trouble in that game ill never forget that game.

[OLD FAN MAN]

That also can be argued to not be true, jets, chargers, 9ers, packers, steelers just to name a few teams the colts have trouble with even in the 2nd half. I think its more of a familiarity with a team when it comes to the 3-4 on how peyton comes and play. The prime example was the steelers colts playoff game, colts had so much trouble in that game ill never forget that game.

this topic is going to get a lot of different opinions, i am going to keep track this year and see how we pass and run against each type.

[Guest BlueShoe]

That also can be argued to not be true, jets, chargers, 9ers, packers, steelers just to name a few teams the colts have trouble with even in the 2nd half. I think its more of a familiarity with a team when it comes to the 3-4 on how peyton comes and play. The prime example was the steelers colts playoff game, colts had so much trouble in that game ill never forget that game.

I disagree.

It is very common knowledge that Peyton plays against 3-4 defenses better in the second half of games. Not sure how you don't see it.

You're example of the Steelers playoff game, Peyton came alive in the second half. We didn't do much in the first half. That just makes my point.

[Manning2Wayne]

I disagree.

It is very common knowledge that Peyton plays against 3-4 defenses better in the second half of games. Not sure how you don't see it.

You're example of the Steelers playoff game, Peyton came alive in the second half. We didn't do much in the first half. That just makes my point.

you are cool dude

have you been around football for a very long time, played, or coached the game?

[21isSuperman]

We don't have the personnel to run a 3-4 in my opinion. We would need a mammoth NT with bigger DEs. We would not to well as a 3-4 defense with the personnel we have right now

[Smitto]

I disagree.

It is very common knowledge that Peyton plays against 3-4 defenses better in the second half of games. Not sure how you don't see it.

You're example of the Steelers playoff game, Peyton came alive in the second half. We didn't do much in the first half. That just makes my point.

Not really mate if peyton was ripping 3-4 teams apart in the 2nd half dont you think he would have had more success against them?

[OLD FAN MAN]

We don't have the personnel to run a 3-4 in my opinion. We would need a mammoth NT with bigger DEs. We would not to well as a 3-4 defense with the personnel we have right now

I wanted to know if we do better against a 4-3 or 3-4 defense. do we do better running or passing against each type

[Guest BlueShoe]

you are cool dude

have you been around football for a very long time, played, or coached the game?

I played high school football and coached as an assistant, but never went any further. It's tough to have a full time job and be a head coach of a high school team. They don't make much money. ;)

[Guest BlueShoe]

Not really mate if peyton was ripping 3-4 teams apart in the 2nd half dont you think he would have had more success against them?

The second half is where most of his success has come and there is a good reason for that. With 3-4 teams they don't just line up and let you know what they're doing. Instead they tend to move their linebackers all around and rarely set them as if they have 4 extra strong safeties all over the field. It makes it tough to tell what side is weak and what side is strong. That cause serious protection issues and it makes it tough to know what side to run the ball to as well.

By the second half of a game against a 3-4 defense, Peyton usually has their game plan figured out and is able to recognize what side is weak, strong, and who the MIKE is so he starts to hit them where they are weak; hence we move the ball better.

[Andy]

4-3, we have no really bi NTs, and our OLB are not good for 3-4, maybe Sims but that's it.

[Smitto]

The second half is where most of his success has come and there is a good reason for that. With 3-4 teams they don't just line up and let you know what they're doing. Instead they tend to move their linebackers all around and rarely set them as if they have 4 extra strong safeties all over the field. It makes it tough to tell what side is weak and what side is strong. That cause serious protection issues and it makes it tough to know what side to run the ball to as well.

By the second half of a game against a 3-4 defense, Peyton usually has their game plan figured out and is able to recognize what side is weak, strong, and who the MIKE is so he starts to hit them where they are weak; hence we move the ball better.

You still havent answered my question, yes that may be true which is why teams dont really show their formations until the play clock is under 5 so peyton cant change anything... but if peyton has so much success against the 3-4 in the 2nd half when it really matters how comes he loses to them so much? I mean you would think peyton would do his homework over the D during the wk.

[CR91]

4-3, we have no really bi NTs, and our OLB are not good for 3-4, maybe Sims but that's it.

idk nevis is pretty big and wheeler has shown in the preseason he can get to the QB.

[Guest BlueShoe]

You still havent answered my question, yes that may be true which is why teams dont really show their formations until the play clock is under 5 so peyton cant change anything... but if peyton has so much success against the 3-4 in the 2nd half when it really matters how comes he loses to them so much? I mean you would think peyton would do his homework over the D during the wk.

We get our groove going in the second half, but there are many times when we are already 2 or 3 scores down from the first half and we can't always climb out of the hole.

Other teams don't depend on their QB to do so much so they will just line up and play smash mouth with teams who move their linebackers all over the field and never set. That will settle the linebackers down real fast. We haven't been capable of doing that for over 10 years now. We are left with needing to have the upper hand at the line of scrimmage and being the last team to show it's hand.

[GoColts8818]

Under Peyton we have struggled vs. a 3-4 defense. In fact for a while people thought that's what you had to play to beat Manning. Frankly I think that had more to do with the fact the Pats were just a better team at the time and the Chargers just have our number. In recent years Peyton has carved up some 3-4 defense, the most recent being the Broncos of last year that I can recall off the top of my head.

[Mouthfire]

lol at the folks who responded and didn't even read the opening post.

The question was, which defense do you think Peyton's had more problems with.

I think the whole Manning thing has gotten a few fans' brains scrambled... lol

[Manning2Wayne]

I played high school football and coached as an assistant, but never went any further. It's tough to have a full time job and be a head coach of a high school team. They don't make much money. ;)

just curious, since you intrigue me, how many hours on average would a coach have to put in, or an assistant, defensive scheme, offensive scheme, preparing players, looking over film,

oh, what is your fav position in football and fav player.. biased or unbiased dont matter

[CR91]

lol at the folks who responded and didn't even read the opening post.

The question was, which defense do you think Peyton's had more problems with.

I think the whole Manning thing has gotten a few fans' brains scrambled... lol

i read it. just wanted to comment about something else

[Guest BlueShoe]

lol at the folks who responded and didn't even read the opening post.

The question was, which defense do you think Peyton's had more problems with.

I think the whole Manning thing has gotten a few fans' brains scrambled... lol

I answered the question and it through me off with peoples responses as well.

It's bizarre on this board lately for sure.

[Guest BlueShoe]

just curious, since you intrigue me, how many hours on average would a coach have to put in, or an assistant, defensive scheme, offensive scheme, preparing players, looking over film,

oh, what is your fav position in football and fav player.. biased or unbiased dont matter

In high school, depending on where you are, coaches are only allowed so much time with players in practice for academic reasons. This is the same in college so you never have enough time to work with the team. As a coach you can spend hours and hours preparing and implementing a game plan. I haven't been a head coach in high school, but the ones who succeed dedicate their life to it. That probably goes without saying though.

My favorite positions to coach are the secondary players. Teaching kids to take the correct angles, position themselves in certain situations, and read a quarterback are things that I really enjoy.

The next time you watch a game live (in the stands), especially in the NFL then watch the corners the whole way on a few plays. There is something special about how well corners are coached up by the time they enter the NFL. As a fan in the stands you can tell everything that is happening in the play just by watching the corners and safeties. They know before anyone else whether it is run or pass and what direction the ball is generally going in.

There is a lot of gamesmanship between the receivers and corners. There are subtle little things that receivers do that will give away what the play is. The great ones have a solid poker face (body) and have learned to lineup the same way no matter what the play is. Some of the more gifted receivers who want the ball every play will give away a run quicker than anyone on the field.

My favorite player of all time is the Sheriff!!

[Knuckles79]

You still havent answered my question, yes that may be true which is why teams dont really show their formations until the play clock is under 5 so peyton cant change anything... but if peyton has so much success against the 3-4 in the 2nd half when it really matters how comes he loses to them so much? I mean you would think peyton would do his homework over the D during the wk.

who are you to say peyton needs to do his home work he does more studying then anyone in the game and yes you are right he has had more problems with 3-4 teams but that was in the past now he does about the same against 3-4 and 4-3

[Manning2Wayne]

In high school, depending on where you are, coaches are only allowed so much time with players in practice for academic reasons. This is the same in college so you never have enough time to work with the team. As a coach you can spend hours and hours preparing and implementing a game plan. I haven't been a head coach in high school, but the ones who succeed dedicate their life to it. That probably goes without saying though.

My favorite positions to coach are the secondary players. Teaching kids to take the correct angles, position themselves in certain situations, and read a quarterback are things that I really enjoy.

The next time you watch a game live (in the stands), especially in the NFL then watch the corners the whole way on a few plays. There is something special about how well corners are coached up by the time they enter the NFL. As a fan in the stands you can tell everything that is happening in the play just by watching the corners and safeties. They know before anyone else whether it is run or pass and what direction the ball is generally going in.

There is a lot of gamesmanship between the receivers and corners. There are subtle little things that receivers do that will give away what the play is. The great ones have a solid poker face (body) and have learned to lineup the same way no matter what the play is. Some of the more gifted receivers who want the ball every play will give away a run quicker than anyone on the field.

My favorite player of all time is the Sheriff!!

awesome, so you are a defense guy, i only been to maybe 1 nfl game, in buffalo, vs the bengals a few years back, it had everything, ocho getting hurt, a brawl in the stands, brawl in the parking lot, and a streaker-- doubt any1 was watching that game, usually ill watch the o-line first and try to guess from there what they are doing, than ill look at the defense- and if its manning, and they have like 3/4 down, ill try to watch the line backers and how spread out they are, than the safeties, but this game ill watch the corners and safeties more than anything, i love a great defense, and i love it when a great defense gets burned ,lol,

thanks man

[StaticColt77]

That is not true Chargers, Pats, Cowboys, Steelers they all have 3-4 defenses and peyton rarely ripped them up. The colts have better success against the 4-3 and thats a well known fact.

In 08 Manning torched the Steelers.

The Pats are so and so, ever since Crennel left NE, we've had a lot more success against them.

The Chargers have always gave us trouble, heck, if Peyton fools them, they'll fool him back 2 downs later. That or they execute so well, that even if Peyton figures out what they're gonna do, they still stop him. One thing they always do against us that gives us trouble is pulling guys out of their zone to blitz(or they pretend like they're in zone). Vice versa(pulling guys out of the blitz to zone coverage), it always seems to fool Manning for whatever reason.

The Cowboys got us last year cause they'd drop 8 in coverage, and get pressure with a 3 MAN RUSH. Are is just awful *yuck*.

Them not blitzing a lot actually helped, gives less windows for Peyton to hit. And of course this is possible because of our non existent run game.(the Jets did this too)

[Smitto]

who are you to say peyton needs to do his home work he does more studying then anyone in the game and yes you are right he has had more problems with 3-4 teams but that was in the past now he does about the same against 3-4 and 4-3

Im not saying peyton needs to do his homework, i was just saying if it took peyton to figure out what they were doing in the 2nd half dont you think he would do that via tapes and what not. I was just trying to make a point that the guys reasoning didnt fit much.

[Smitto]

In 08 Manning torched the Steelers.

The Pats are so and so, ever since Crennel left NE, we've had a lot more success against them.

The Chargers have always gave us trouble, heck, if Peyton fools them, they'll fool him back 2 downs later. That or they execute so well, that even if Peyton figures out what they're gonna do, they still stop him. One thing they always do against us that gives us trouble is pulling guys out of their zone to blitz(or they pretend like they're in zone). Vice versa(pulling guys out of the blitz to zone coverage), it always seems to fool Manning for whatever reason.

The Cowboys got us last year cause they'd drop 8 in coverage, and get pressure with a 3 MAN RUSH. Are is just awful *yuck*.

Them not blitzing a lot actually helped, gives less windows for Peyton to hit. And of course this is possible because of our non existent run game.(the Jets did this too)

I think it all comes down to personnel and all those teams have really good players thats what made them a really good 3-4 team... What ive noticed is that the 3-4 is geared more to stop the run which i find odd for the texans cause they suck at pass defense lol

[doogansquest]

That is not true Chargers, Pats, Cowboys, Steelers they all have 3-4 defenses and peyton rarely ripped them up. The colts have better success against the 4-3 and thats a well known fact.

The Chargers notwithstanding, Manning usually puts up pretty good numbers against the Patriots and Steelers. He's 5-1 against the latter, and his numbers are even better when his WR's are healthy. I don't believe it's the 3-4 that gives him trouble, as most passing teams tend to favor going against the anti-run formation. It's probably just particular scheme and coaching styles designed with slowing Peyton down at the forefront of their agenda. Those teams will also do their best to run the ball and keep it out of Manning's hands, thus limiting his t.o.p.

[NYColt]

I don't think Manning inherrently struggles against 3-4 or 4-3 defenses, as one can find numerous examples of both Ds which he's struggled against - it really comes down to the personnel present on those teams. If 3-4s were Manning's kryptonite then every team would come out in a 3-4 against him, but not every team has a Willie McGinnest, a Joey Porter, Clay Mathews, Shawne Merriman or Richard Seymour. It's more so that Manning sometimes struggles against elite Ds, just like any other great QB occasionally does - it's just more is made of Manning because it's Manning. Sometimes Manning struggles because he's just not getting enough help - a D's job becomes immeasurably easier when they can get pressure rushing only 3 and dropping 8 into coverage like in 2004 against the Patriots.

Having said that, Manning has historically struggled against Romeo Crennel, and now Ron Riviera Ds of late. In my armchair analysis (and please correct if wrong, naturally) I think one thing these 2 guys do well against Manning is disguising coverage pre-snap with lots of movement and nullifying his ability to make a pre-snap read and audible. I believe one good example of this came in the 2008 play-off loss to the Chargers, where the Charger D exploited Manning's tendency to run down the play-clock before snapping it and audibling on D after Manning had already audibled, thus locking him into a play.

The Patriots in the 2003 play-off loss did similar things - they featured alot of pre-snap movement and disguised coverage; Rodney Harrison in particular was playing the corner spot several times for instance. Honestly I think BB's supposed defensive genius is overrated - he hasn't had a great D coming anywhere close to that of the Superbowl winning teams since Crennel left, and has struggled to restock his D at key positions (particularly corner, safety and OLB) as they got old.

Rex Ryan's Ds in Baltimore do a pretty good job at LIMITING Manning and featuring plenty of pre-snap movement, but the problem is his Ds are overly agressive and put immense pressure on the corners to seal the backend of his everyone-but-the-kitchen-sink blitzes (a reason why I think Rob Ryan will not succeed in his first year in Dallas due to the horrible secondary). I think Rex has matured alot more as a DC since becoming HC of New York and wisely plays alot more zone now, despite having the best CBs in the league.

[Smitto]

The Chargers notwithstanding, Manning usually puts up pretty good numbers against the Patriots and Steelers. He's 5-1 against the latter, and his numbers are even better when his WR's are healthy. I don't believe it's the 3-4 that gives him trouble, as most passing teams tend to favor going against the anti-run formation. It's probably just particular scheme and coaching styles designed with slowing Peyton down at the forefront of their agenda. Those teams will also do their best to run the ball and keep it out of Manning's hands, thus limiting his t.o.p.

Lets just put it this way, manning has less stellar numbers than he has against 4-3 defense.

[Rich Cannon]

You still havent answered my question, yes that may be true which is why teams dont really show their formations until the play clock is under 5 so peyton cant change anything... but if peyton has so much success against the 3-4 in the 2nd half when it really matters how comes he loses to them so much? I mean you would think peyton would do his homework over the D during the wk.

It's not that Peyton doesn't do his homework. 3-4 defense presents certain formation problems especially for the way our offense is run vs. others.

[chrisfarley]

we normally don't allow substitutions for nickel packages for the defense so they have to keep their 3-4's honest and keep speed in there in early downs so they are available in later downs (when they can't sub due to Peyton) which should allow us to take a bigger full-back up the gut....... problem is, we never have had a big fullback.