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Greenoughrunner

Luck vs rg3

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It's too bad RG3's in the NFC or the NFL probably would have pulled it's magic to have us playing them every year like Manning/Brady.

they could still do that if they wanted to

The NFL schedule is pretty rigidly determined, it isn't like anyone in the head office intercedes to pit Manning against Brady each year. It just happens to work out that way because teams that routinely finish in the same place in their respective divisions within the same conference will always play each other. Even when that isn't the case you're still going to play an entire division within your conference every year, so there's a 1 in 3 chance of having that matchup even when one team wins their division and the other selects Andrew Luck with the first overall pick.

Under the current system I could tell you with certainty who all but 2 Colts opponents will be in 2161.

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I know it's not the point of this thread, but I think there are too many factors that make it impossible to compare objectively. As a Colts fan I know we all love Luck and wouldn't trade him for anyone, but deep down these threads stem from a fear of buyer's remorse. Not to say any of you have it, but you want to make sure you got the most bang for your buck with your #1 pick.

They are both playing great in the systems they play in. The teams are at different places maturity/talent wise, the offenses ask them to do very different things, their divisions and schedules are different, THEY are different. No amount of favorable stats, half-truths, or blatant homerisms are going to change that either way.

I hope they both have great careers, think they are both insanely talented, and ultimately that it's going to be who puts in more work that makes a better QB in the long run.

P.S.

- I think the RG3 comparisons to Steve Young are most accurate vs other QBs.

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That sure thing may very well be on their team already.

The Statue? I hope that's who they plan on going with.

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The Statue? I hope that's who they plan on going with.

Maybe he'll learn something from Brady in his years on the bench. Who knows what the guy or the team will look like five years from now when Brady retires.

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I know it's not the point of this thread, but I think there are too many factors that make it impossible to compare objectively. As a Colts fan I know we all love Luck and wouldn't trade him for anyone, but deep down these threads stem from a fear of buyer's remorse. Not to say any of you have it, but you want to make sure you got the most bang for your buck with your #1 pick.

They are both playing great in the systems they play in. The teams are at different places maturity/talent wise, the offenses ask them to do very different things, their divisions and schedules are different, THEY are different. No amount of favorable stats, half-truths, or blatant homerisms are going to change that either way.

I hope they both have great careers, think they are both insanely talented, and ultimately that it's going to be who puts in more work that makes a better QB in the long run.

P.S.

- I think the RG3 comparisons to Steve Young are most accurate vs other QBs.

It's actually pretty easy to compare them objectively. The important thing is to acknowledge the validity in opposing viewpoints as well as the limitations of your own perspective. If you're going to be lazy or if you're just seeking to prove a point before you've truly considered the evidence (as is the case about 99% of the time amongst fans of all teams) then, yeah, you're not going to succeed.

Spot on with the buyer's remorse thing, though. Redskins fans don't even have these discussions that tend to plague this board because we didn't have a choice in the matter. We were left with whoever was still there after you guys picked and were darn grateful to have a shot at either one of them (although I remain convinced that both teams got the top guy on their draft board).

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The NFL schedule is pretty rigidly determined, it isn't like anyone in the head office intercedes to pit Manning against Brady each year. It just happens to work out that way because teams that routinely finish in the same place in their respective divisions within the same conference will always play each other. Even when that isn't the case you're still going to play an entire division within your conference every year, so there's a 1 in 3 chance of having that matchup even when one team wins their division and the other selects Andrew Luck with the first overall pick.

Under the current system I could tell you with certainty who all but 2 Colts opponents will be in 2161.

Oh I thought 2 games were selected for some reason, but it is actually divisional position youre right,

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When I compare who's better I go off of who has the best body.

So naturally, Tebow wins.

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I AM TIRED OF THIS TOPIC!!! Both quarterbacks are going to have great careers and may even meet in the Super Bowl someday, but for crying out loud this topic is getting old. I have said before that in my opinion RG3 equals highlights and Andrew Luck equals wins. I'd would want to have the QB that gets us wins rather than make the sportscenter top ten plays everytime. It soulds harsh, but its the truth.

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Maybe he'll learn something from Brady in his years on the bench. Who knows what the guy or the team will look like five years from now when Brady retires.

I can't imagine him getting a second contract to sit on the bench. He's trade bait if Brady decides to play 4 or 5 more years.

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I can't imagine him getting a second contract to sit on the bench. He's trade bait if Brady decides to play 4 or 5 more years.

Eh, we probably won't be seeing a quality quarterback draft class for a few more years and even then the Patriots aren't guaranteed to pick early in the first round so maybe Belichick will be willing to hold onto him. I guess it will come down to whether Mallett wants to sit and wait for that long.

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I've never been a huge fan of player debates like Manning/Brady, Luck/RGIII, etc, because they always turn into put one down to raise the other one up. But I will say I really like how we're handling the development of Luck MUCH more than the Redskins are handling RGIII. We're basically saying, "Screw it, be aggressive, take your lumps and learn", while the Skins are insanely protecting RGIII. I haven't watched a TON of RGIII this year, but the only time I've seen him throw it more than 5 yards downfield is when the WR is open by 15 yards (something I give him a degree of credit for because the defense has to spy him). Who knows, RGIII may end up being better, but the stat gap is purely because he's not asked to take chances, and I think the ability to take and learn from those chances is gonna make Luck progress more in his sophomore year

this

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It's actually pretty easy to compare them objectively. The important thing is to acknowledge the validity in opposing viewpoints as well as the limitations of your own perspective. If you're going to be lazy or if you're just seeking to prove a point before you've truly considered the evidence (as is the case about 99% of the time amongst fans of all teams) then, yeah, you're not going to succeed.

Spot on with the buyer's remorse thing, though. Redskins fans don't even have these discussions that tend to plague this board because we didn't have a choice in the matter. We were left with whoever was still there after you guys picked and were darn grateful to have a shot at either one of them (although I remain convinced that both teams got the top guy on their draft board).

I honestly look at it differently. Colts fans are used to putting their QB vs. another one. Brady and Manning. And then argue for pages how Manning is better. Not just pages but sometimes days/months and years. It is still going on actually.

It's in their system. Not everyone but in many internal systems for internet fun.

Now they are going to do the same with Luck vs. RG3 since it's the closest most reliable thing one can get right now to fill the void.

And since RG3 supporters often use his stats and Luck fans often use his wins and clutch play in close games....ironically Colts fans sound more like Pats fans of the past and RG3 fans more like Colts fans of the past.

That is my loopy breakdown.......

Sometimes maybe you become what you hate. Maybe we have the new Brady and the Skins the new Peyton. lmao But, many wanted Peyton 2.0 and see the better stats in RG3 at times and feel slight nostalgia and envy even if our new QB currently has more wins.

JMO

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I honestly look at it differently. Colts fans are used to putting their QB vs. another one. Brady and Manning. And then argue for pages how Manning is better. Not just pages but sometimes days/months and years. It is still going on actually.

It's in their system. Not everyone but in many internal systems for internet fun.

Now they are going to do the same with Luck vs. RG3 since it's the closest most reliable thing one can get right now to fill the void.

And since RG3 supporters often use his stats and Luck fans often use his wins and clutch play in close games....ironically Colts fans sound more like Pats fans of the past and RG3 fans more like Colts fans of the past.

That is my loopy breakdown.......

Sometimes maybe you become what you hate. Maybe we have the new Brady and the Skins the new Peyton. lmao But, many wanted Peyton 2.0 and see the better stats in RG3 at times and feel slight nostalgia and envy even if our new QB currently has more wins.

JMO

Actually pats fan used rings and playoff success as their argument which luck doesn't have.

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RG3 has the better stats and athletic skills

Luck is more clutch and valuable to the organization

But i have to admit the thanksgiving game from RG3 was extremely good.. but when he has games that he only attempts 16 throws and 4 of them go for TD's.... you catch my drift

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Did anyone else notice that it was Luck's old school and RG3's old school that opened the door for Manning's old conference to play for the National Title in college football?

That really has nothing to do with the thread but hey I just wanted to use a different take on RG3 vs. Luck debate :)

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Luck is more clutch and valuable to the organization

I'd argue that he's just as valuable and just as 'clutch' as Luck is...

Luck's defense has given him the opportunity to have more game winning drives this year. It's not RG3's fault his defense has been poor and he's had to play from behind a lot.

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ive never seen someone have so many busted coverages.

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The W.Redskins imported some of the concepts and simple reads from the Baylor playbook to give Griffin a low-risk opening sequence to work with. Offensive coordinator K.Shanahan crafted a game plan that built to creating space for R.Griffin.

It all starts with how the W.Redskins positioned R.Griffin in their backfield. Regardless of the down, distance, and situation, the W.Redskins rarely lined up R.Griffin directly under center in a traditional formation. Instead, R.Griffin spent most of his time alternating between the Shotgun and the Pistol, a shallower Shotgun formation where the quarterback lines up with a running back behind him.

The W.Redskins keep R.Griffin off the line of scrimmage on virtually every meaningful offensive snap of games, just the threat of a running quarterback kept linebackers frozen and allowed the W.Redskins to stretch the field both horizontally and, eventually, vertically. R.Griffin rolls out and looks like he might run and the backfield freeze for a second and allows receiver to get open and R.Griffin throws it to him, just the threat of him taking off and running is all you need.

R.Griffin lines up in the Pistol and executed a simple zone read, a two-option run that's a hallmark of notable college offenses from the past decade. When R.Griffin see a defensive end crash down to defend against a possible hand off to halfback A.Morris, R.Griffin simply ran around the vacated end and goes mostly untouched for lots of yards. The W.Redskins use the simple zone read as a base for their entire offensive scheme.

Or they fake a hand off to A.Morris out of the Pistol again and threw a quick easy completion hitch pass to the right side of the field and or they ran it to the left side and then next play for an even easier first down. If the LB was more disciplined and didn't crash down into the line of scrimmage, R.Griffin handed the ball off to A.Morris for a few yards up the gut. And then, after another quick play fake out of the Pistol, they threw a easily completed swing pass that turned into a first down.

Tape isn't enough for teams to shut down the W.Redskins, but it will give them ample time to practice and prepare. Their game plan also requires a ton of movement by Washington's offensive linemen in terms of getting off the line of scrimmage and moving down field and/or to the sidelines to block and that's going to create wear and tear and tired them out. For those who bring up A.Lucks fumbles, there were four fumbles in the Saints game by various players and the W.Redskins ended up recovering each of them. Sometimes the ball bounces the right way sometimes they don't. LOL

I don't remember A.Luck fumbling while running, it was when he gets sacked, Colts patched up offensive line is not as good as Washington's and Luck gets more pressure and thus more of the ball getting knocked out when the pocket calapses, after this season and with extra funds around 43 million I hear and the draft picks the line will be better and that extra second or 2 is gold...

The use of the Baylor low risk simple zone read, a two-option runs creating space with easy completed highly successful swing passes that allows a few times to open up for a long throw attempt.

This all will be refuted by RG3 fans of course, they think he's a god, but his stats are result of a system that has easy short swing completed passes and easy under 20 yard hitch plays and running option plays. And those allow the SS and FS to bite creating one on ones to open up downfield passing plays from RG3 rolling out so those before mentioned backfield will bite thinking it's a run, it's very successfull, but the elite defenses do end up adapting and isn't as effective as it's shown in the past in the NFL...

Go Colts...

I dont understand why you are trying to simplify the success that RG3 is having. Basically you are saying that the Redskins have an amazing offensive scheme and that is why Griff is thriving. This is bad, why?

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If you call 5-6 at week 12 a success then good for you, if it makes you feel better and sleep better then good for you, I'm thrilled you feel good, not really, it's call sarcasm Sheldon, were just tired of trolls who come here to boost about a 5-6 record and a couple of bloated stats from a dink and dunk team who runs a college/Baylor offense, if that's what you like then good for you, go brag on your Redskins forums, I went to 3 Redskins forums last night to see the comments and they're the same spouted by the trolls coming here, and I remember one guy mentioned commenting on the "not seeing it with my boy luck" thread on here so I know he goes to that one too on top of trolling here. If you Redskins want to troll that's fine and go for it because I did and if you want to comment here and it makes you happy then good for you, doesn't mean we have to accept your homer comments that are Redskins biased, you see what you want to see and if it makes yourself feel better now and the future of the Redskins then good for you, us colts fans are not here to make you feel better, if you like and boost about a 5-6 team that's your choice. Redskins might get better next year and being an obnoxious troll will not make that come true. If it makes you feel better and sleep better then I'm happy for you, not really! Sarcasm again Sheldon!!!!!

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If you call 5-6 at week 12 a success then good for you, if it makes you feel better and sleep better then good for you, I'm thrilled you feel good, not really, it's call sarcasm Sheldon, were just tired of trolls who come here to boost about a 5-6 record and a couple of bloated stats from a dink and dunk team who runs a college/Baylor offense, if that's what you like then good for you, go brag on your Redskins forums, I went to 3 Redskins forums last night to see the comments and they're the same spouted by the trolls coming here, and I remember one guy mentioned commenting on the "not seeing it with my boy luck" thread on here so I know he goes to that one too on top of trolling here. If you Redskins want to troll that's fine and go for it because I did and if you want to comment here and it makes you happy then good for you, doesn't mean we have to accept your homer comments that are Redskins biased, you see what you want to see and if it makes yourself feel better now and the future of the Redskins then good for you, us colts fans are not here to make you feel better, if you like and boost about a 5-6 team that's your choice. Redskins might get better next year and being an obnoxious troll will not make that come true. If it makes you feel better and sleep better then I'm happy for you, not really! Sarcasm again Sheldon!!!!!

Good grief. You could have said all that in one line......like 'go away trolls' or something.

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I can't say who's going to better in the future. Based on what I've seen RG3 appears to be the total package at qb. I have never in my life a qb with elite passing ability, world class speed, intelligence, poise, toughness, and great leader. I have never seen all those characteristic in one player. I have absolutely nothing negative to say about Andrew Luck. He might very well be the next Peyton Manning. I just believe that RG3 is going to redefine the qb position. He is that good.

I actually think he is better than that. When he rips his Redskins jersey off there is actually a blue suit on underneath, with a big 'S' on the front.

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If you call 5-6 at week 12 a success then good for you, if it makes you feel better and sleep better then good for you, I'm thrilled you feel good, not really, it's call sarcasm Sheldon, were just tired of trolls who come here to boost about a 5-6 record and a couple of bloated stats from a dink and dunk team who runs a college/Baylor offense, if that's what you like then good for you, go brag on your Redskins forums, I went to 3 Redskins forums last night to see the comments and they're the same spouted by the trolls coming here, and I remember one guy mentioned commenting on the "not seeing it with my boy luck" thread on here so I know he goes to that one too on top of trolling here. If you Redskins want to troll that's fine and go for it because I did and if you want to comment here and it makes you happy then good for you, doesn't mean we have to accept your homer comments that are Redskins biased, you see what you want to see and if it makes yourself feel better now and the future of the Redskins then good for you, us colts fans are not here to make you feel better, if you like and boost about a 5-6 team that's your choice. Redskins might get better next year and being an obnoxious troll will not make that come true. If it makes you feel better and sleep better then I'm happy for you, not really! Sarcasm again Sheldon!!!!!

Since I found no shred of objectivity in your post (lol), I just wanted to comment.

I'm not a Redskins fan but I understand the concept of one person not winning a game or "they didn't lose because of this guy." Objectively looking, majority of the games have been close and I can think of 2 games off the top of my head with what ifs. The Rams game (with Danny Admendola catching about a 3rd of his total receptions and 50% of his touchdowns on that defense along with the Josh Morgan penalty) and the Giants game in which again, the defense was the reason for that loss. To put wins and losses solely on the shoulder of the QB totally ignores the whole game. A 5 - 6 Redskins are not 5 - 6 because of the offense, I can tell you that.

Also, with all that bashing, you kind of overlooked the fact that the Redskins still have a chance to win the NFC East. If they pull of an win this week, it will play them one game behind the Giants. The Giants then face the Saints, Falcons, and Ravens in 3 consecutive weeks. They are still pretty much in it. These last 5 weeks are going to be crazy throughout the NFL.

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Since I found no shred of objectivity in your post (lol), I just wanted to comment.

I'm not a Redskins fan but I understand the concept of one person not winning a game or "they didn't lose because of this guy." Objectively looking, majority of the games have been close and I can think of 2 games off the top of my head with what ifs. The Rams game (with Danny Admendola catching about a 3rd of his total receptions and 50% of his touchdowns on that defense along with the Josh Morgan penalty) and the Giants game in which again, the defense was the reason for that loss. To put wins and losses solely on the shoulder of the QB totally ignores the whole game. A 5 - 6 Redskins are not 5 - 6 because of the offense, I can tell you that.

Also, with all that bashing, you kind of overlooked the fact that the Redskins still have a chance to win the NFC East. If they pull of an win this week, it will play them one game behind the Giants. The Giants then face the Saints, Falcons, and Ravens in 3 consecutive weeks. They are still pretty much in it. These last 5 weeks are going to be crazy throughout the NFL.

Which team are you a fan of then, if you don't mind me asking?

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It's crazy to make these comparisons right now. Luck is playing in an offense that attacks downfield, so he is not going to have a high percentage of completions at this point.

I will speculate this. Just like Cam Newton last year, the NFL takes about a year to adjust to a running QB like RG3 Once they do, it is usually downhill from there. I expected RG3 to have a rough second year, while I expect that Luck will continue to get better because he will get better players around him and will get more adjusted to an offense that is very foreign to him. I think over a three year period, you won't be able to even compare these guys anymore.

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Stats are like women's G-string...allows You to see a lot of things, still covers what really matters.

What? Luck and Griffen in G-strings? :HFire:

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It's crazy to make these comparisons right now. Luck is playing in an offense that attacks downfield, so he is not going to have a high percentage of completions at this point.

I will speculate this. Just like Cam Newton last year, the NFL takes about a year to adjust to a running QB like RG3 Once they do, it is usually downhill from there. I expected RG3 to have a rough second year, while I expect that Luck will continue to get better because he will get better players around him and will get more adjusted to an offense that is very foreign to him. I think over a three year period, you won't be able to even compare these guys anymore.

RG3 is a more accurate passer than Cam or Luck. I think he'll be fine

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RG3 is a more accurate passer than Cam or Luck. I think he'll be fine

Why is he more accurate? Shorter easier throws. Not a like for like comparison. Next year, teams will game plan better for Griffin, which will make it tougher. Well, that's the theory....

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RG3 is a more accurate passer than Cam or Luck. I think he'll be fine

Why is he more accurate? Shorter easier throws. Not a like for like comparison. Next year, teams will game plan better for Griffin, which will make it tougher. Well, that's the theory....

I agree with Braveheart. Don't think RG3 is more accurate at all. He has a ton less attempts than Luck and many of his throws are screen passes and dump offs. Plus I have seen RG3's receivers bail him out countless times by making catches on throws that were downright terrible. I don't even know if the stat exists or not but I would love see just how many of Lucks throws have been dropped by receivers because it seems like there have been a ton of them this yr.. I just think a lot of people are buying into the ESPN and NFL network hype that RG3 gets constantly. IMO he has done nothing amazing this yr.. He has been an above average rookie just like Luck, but since he's in an offense that focuses on screens and dump offs he has an unusually high completion percentage for a rookie. Luck takes many more shots downfield.

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I agree with Braveheart. Don't think RG3 is more accurate at all. He has a ton less attempts than Luck and many of his throws are screen passes and dump offs. Plus I have seen RG3's receivers bail him out countless times by making catches on throws that were downright terrible. I don't even know if the stat exists or not but I would love see just how many of Lucks throws have been dropped by receivers because it seems like there have been a ton of them this yr.. I just think a lot of people are buying into the ESPN and NFL network hype that RG3 gets constantly. IMO he has done nothing amazing this yr.. He has been an above average rookie just like Luck, but since he's in an offense that focuses on screens and dump offs he has an unusually high completion percentage for a rookie. Luck takes many more shots downfield.

You guys, stop it. He's insanely accurate. And the big knock on Luck I see around here is that he's not that accurate over 15 yards. If you actually watched a Redskins game you'd see how many great intermediate and deep throws he makes, and would stop saying "But all his passes are dump offs!!!" it makes you sound like you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just in denial.

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You guys, stop it. He's insanely accurate. And the big knock on Luck I see around here is that he's not that accurate over 15 yards. If you actually watched a Redskins game you'd see how many great intermediate and deep throws he makes, and would stop saying "But all his passes are dump offs!!!" it makes you sound like you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just in denial.

So if we disagree with your assessment, we are fools or in denial? Is that your debating stance? Quality.

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So if we disagree with your assessment, we are fools or in denial? Is that your debating stance? Quality.

Your "debate" isn't much for quality as it is...

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You guys, stop it. He's insanely accurate. And the big knock on Luck I see around here is that he's not that accurate over 15 yards. If you actually watched a Redskins game you'd see how many great intermediate and deep throws he makes, and would stop saying "But all his passes are dump offs!!!" it makes you sound like you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just in denial.

I haven't said ALL his passes are dump offs. I said many of them are and It's absolutely the truth. Plus he has many less attempts than Luck. I have said repeatably that Im not trying to diminish RG3's accomplishments, but the media and his fans are completely over stating his so called greatness. He has made some great deep throws and he does have good deep accuracy, but people are making it sound like he throws 50 passes a games at 30+ yds and hardly ever misses. He threw about a 15 yd. pass to Garcon on thanksgiving that was 5 yds. behind him and yet Garcon made an amazing catch and then took it to the house. I have seen quite a few throws like that from RG3 and his recievers bailed him out. RG3 has been good, not great and I certainly think Luck has been just as good if not better and his record proves it.

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You guys, stop it. He's insanely accurate. And the big knock on Luck I see around here is that he's not that accurate over 15 yards. If you actually watched a Redskins game you'd see how many great intermediate and deep throws he makes, and would stop saying "But all his passes are dump offs!!!" it makes you sound like you either don't know what you're talking about, or are just in denial.

Actually, Luck has greatly improved his deep throws. That's still his weak point, but it will improve.

And there is no denying RG3 is in an offense that relies on his fast WRs and good RB system, not his accuracy. I don't know how many Skins games you've watched, but I've watched a good amount, and again, no denying RG3 completely relies on screens and dumpoffs.

That isn't a knock on him necessarily, I wish we ran an offense that was more similar to the Skins, we barely ever run screens and dumpoffs, despite Hilton and Brown's great YAC ability. It just shows that Griffin is in an offense that is very QB friendly and doesn't require great accuracy.

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I haven't said ALL his passes are dump offs. I said many of them are and It's absolutely the truth. Plus he has many less attempts than Luck. I have said repeatably that Im not trying to diminish RG3's accomplishments, but the media and his fans are completely over stating his so called greatness. He has made some great deep throws and he does have good deep accuracy, but people are making it sound like he throws 50 passes a games at 30+ yds and hardly ever misses. He threw about a 15 yd. pass to Garcon on thanksgiving that was 5 yds. behind him and yet Garcon made an amazing catch and then took it to the house. I have seen quite a few throws like that from RG3 and his recievers bailed him out. RG3 has been good, not great and I certainly think Luck has been just as good if not better and his record proves it.

If you can't see how great his accuracy is then whatever, I can't help you. I think most outside of this forum would agree that he has an edge on Luck in that department. Which is telling...

And what do you mean, "his" record? If I'm not mistaken not only are Indy and Washington playing different teams and there are 50+ other guys on the active roster besides the QB.

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Actually, Luck has greatly improved his deep throws. That's still his weak point, but it will improve.

And there is no denying RG3 is in an offense that relies on his fast WRs and good RB system, not his accuracy. I don't know how many Skins games you've watched, but I've watched a good amount, and again, no denying RG3 completely relies on screens and dumpoffs.

That isn't a knock on him necessarily, I wish we ran an offense that was more similar to the Skins, we barely ever run screens and dumpoffs, despite Hilton and Brown's great YAC ability. It just shows that Griffin is in an offense that is very QB friendly and doesn't require great accuracy.

I've watched every Skins game. I've also watched every Colts game. It's obvious they employ MORE screens, etc but to say he is dependent on them is not the correct statement in my opinion.

Wether or not the system he's in doesn't require great accuracy to play well is irrelevant, because he in fact has great accuracy anyway.

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If you can't see how great his accuracy is then whatever, I can't help you. I think most outside of this forum would agree that he has an edge on Luck in that department. Which is telling...

And what do you mean, "his" record? If I'm not mistaken not only are Indy and Washington playing different teams and there are 50+ other guys on the active roster besides the QB.

50+ guys that before the season everybody said was a bunch of scrubs, castoffs, and rookies. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY thought the Colts even had a glimmer of a chance at the playoffs and Luck is a huge reason why they do have that chance, but now, since the Colts are where they are many of their detractors are saying that Luck has better weapons and a better defense than RG3. That goes back to the Colts actually having good coaching as well as a clutch rookie QB that has no quit in him. It also speaks volume's about how people will change their arguments to fit their personal agenda's.

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