Our Offensive Philosophy

[BOTT]

why not lol. offensive systems are interesting ;)

because nobody here is qualified to teach it

[chad72]

arians wasn't the oc when the steelers won their first super bowl with big ben

No, the point I was making there was Big Ben able to afford turnovers and inconsistent QB play since I got talking about Big Ben due to Luck comparisons to him.

The yardage and points per game was the one I am attributing more to Arians' offensive philosophy.

[GrizzColt]

Giants, saints, colts and steelers have dominated the super bowl the past decade and none of them are a WCO.

[Larry Horseman]

I never agreed with the idea that the Manning/Moore offense was predictable...The primary reason Arians' offense has become predictable is because he uses so much motion and so many formations...

I really can't argue with any of these points. It's really semantics. To me, they are both predicable but in different ways. I'm not as worried about predictability as you are, which is OK...we are both entitled to our opinions. I'm more of the mindset of who cares if the other team knows the Colts are going to run the ball? If the Colts have the personnel to do it, then it doesn't matter. If they show a run blitz, then Luck can change the play, right? I'm not claiming to be a film expert, but can watch other teams play and correctly guess more times than not if it is a run or pass based on formations and personnel groupings. I'm sure NFL coaches and players are better at predicting this than I am. I don't think in today's NFL the point is to trick the defense into thinking run when it's a pass. I'm being a little tongue and cheek here, but I hope you get where I'm coming from.

We gain a lot of yards, and we're good on third down, but I don't agree that we've had a ton of offensive success. We struggle to get to 20 points every week. And as the OP stated, that's the best measure of how well an offense is playing. We managed 27 against the Jaguars, and that's with a defensive score.

Yes, averaging 21 points per game isn't good, especially considering how terrible our defense is (currently ranked dead last in run and pass DVOA). To me, the play of the D is impacting the O and when this is combined with an O line that is statistically in the lower 1/3 of the league the result is a -13 TO differential and settling for punts and field goals in our own territory, all of which result in fewer PPG than other indicators would suggest the Colts should be scoring. My point is, there is more than Arians' play calling/system that is negatively impacting the Colts PPG.

Laying the groundwork is fine, but that doesn't mean asking your offensive line to do something they've proven through ten weeks they're not capable of. A handful of plays designed to go deep every game is one thing, but relying on your line to hold up as often as we do is just not advisable. We can call plays that take less time to develop, and the result will be higher percentage throws and a frustrated pass rush, and then we're set up to take a couple of shots in strategic moments.

And at the end of the day, we're going to need better linemen in order to really improve our line play. Asking these guys to do something they can't do (again, it's not Week 3; we know what we can and can't do) doesn't make them better. It hurts your production.

Yes, the OL personnel needs to be improved. However, to say that the OL has proven they absolutely cannot do what Arians is asking them to do is going too far. The offense shows moments of really good play and moments of really bad play. I think that would happen regardless of the system in place. The Colts are about a .500 team and the offense has played like one over the course of every game. It's not like other rookie QB-lead offenses are lighting it up throughout an entire game either.

Again, I disagree. The nature of Brady's throws was completely different. First of all, they have a better offensive line. Secondly, they still put a premium on getting the ball out of Brady's hands as quickly as possible.

Of course Brady is more experienced, a better quarterback, more mature, etc. But their offensive game plan takes into consideration the fact that our pass rushers are going to beat their blockers, and with little exception, Brady was never touched.

Yes, the Pats run a completely different offense than the Colts. What the Colts are running now is much closer to the 2007 Pats than the 2012 Pats. The Pats run the quick passing game pretty much regardless of opponent, so I don't think its fair to make it sound as if their game plan on Sunday was based solely on our pass rush. In this sense, the Pats play calling and overall offensive game plan for the Colts was extremely predictable. However, it worked because they are the better team and executed it. I'm fairly certain that the overall play calling and formations from the Pats surpised nobody on the Colts coaching staff or any of the players. The D just isn't good enough to do anything about it.

In general, the only point I'm trying to make is that Arians isn't above criticism but he also should not be constantly shredded You may not like his system but I really don't find it to be much worse than any other system. The real knock here is that the Colts D and OL do point to the fact that he should think about fewer throws in the 11-30 yard range...however, those throws have resulted in sustaining long drives and solid ball control so it isn't all bad either. At any rate, Arians is stubborn and he's going to keep doing what he does. I'm OK with that as long as the Colts team deficiencies are addressed in the off-season. Even if he were to change this year, the Colts would still be about a .500 team who is not a legit SB contender (I'm still hoping for the playoff birth though!).

[#12]

Many of us would like to see more quick hitting throws in the passing game, the backs utilized, etc. But as soon as that happens, all of the Arians is too conservative people will return, and to be quite honest, I think there were more of them than us. So, perhaps a majority of the fans are perfectly happy with the downfield game.

In the end, I somewhat agree with the people who contend it doesn't matter. It's all about talent and execution. Draft the right players for the system and execute it. I know this: if they execute it on a high level, this offense will be fun to watch.

[chad72]

Many of us would like to see more quick hitting throws in the passing game, the backs utilized, etc. But as soon as that happens, all of the Arians is too conservative people will return, and to be quite honest, I think there were more of them than us. So, perhaps a majority of the fans are perfectly happy with the downfield game.

In the end, I somewhat agree with the people who contend it doesn't matter. It's all about talent and execution. Draft the right players for the system and execute it. I know this: if they execute it on a high level, this offense will be fun to watch.

It is a game by game situation. The conservative came from "running against 8 man fronts" with a lead 3 times in a row. Look what the Pats did when we loaded up the box against the run, short passes executed well. Home runs are always nice, I dont think most of us want home runs if it is going to be offset with turnovers. A TD still gets us only 6 points and not 12 because it was accomplished with larger passing chunks, so I'd go with controlled aggression any day.

When someone loads the box, throwing against single coverage is less risky and those short passes can turn into longer ones.

Yes, you are right when you say the execution part needs to be taken to another level but lower risk quick hitting throws and utilization of backs in the passing game cannot hurt, logically speaking, if it does the same job of moving the chains.

[Gavin]

Many of us would like to see more quick hitting throws in the passing game, the backs utilized, etc. But as soon as that happens, all of the Arians is too conservative people will return, and to be quite honest, I think there were more of them than us. So, perhaps a majority of the fans are perfectly happy with the downfield game.

In the end, I somewhat agree with the people who contend it doesn't matter. It's all about talent and execution. Draft the right players for the system and execute it. I know this: if they execute it on a high level, this offense will be fun to watch.

Until we play a good team like the Pats and they know the pass is coming its just a matter of one of there players making a play on the ball which they did, that style of play is predictable at least for the best teams

[Superman]

I really can't argue with any of these points. It's really semantics. To me, they are both predicable but in different ways. I'm not as worried about predictability as you are, which is OK...we are both entitled to our opinions. I'm more of the mindset of who cares if the other team knows the Colts are going to run the ball? If the Colts have the personnel to do it, then it doesn't matter. If they show a run blitz, then Luck can change the play, right? I'm not claiming to be a film expert, but can watch other teams play and correctly guess more times than not if it is a run or pass based on formations and personnel groupings. I'm sure NFL coaches and players are better at predicting this than I am. I don't think in today's NFL the point is to trick the defense into thinking run when it's a pass. I'm being a little tongue and cheek here, but I hope you get where I'm coming from.

I get what you mean. I'm saying that I think it's obvious that we're running off tackle left when we have heavy personnel, off balance left. If we ran five different run plays out of one formation, it would be to our benefit, as opposed to one run play out of one formation.

My problem isn't really with Arians' calls of run vs. pass; it's that he uses so many formations and personnel groupings and shifts that it makes the plays easier to defend. That's much different than the "predictability" of the Manning/Moore offense.

Yes, averaging 21 points per game isn't good, especially considering how terrible our defense is (currently ranked dead last in run and pass DVOA). To me, the play of the D is impacting the O and when this is combined with an O line that is statistically in the lower 1/3 of the league the result is a -13 TO differential and settling for punts and field goals in our own territory, all of which result in fewer PPG than other indicators would suggest the Colts should be scoring. My point is, there is more than Arians' play calling/system that is negatively impacting the Colts PPG.

That doesn't mean his play calling isn't stale. And I was just saying that, while the offense produces yardage, it doesn't produce points. There's plenty of room for improvement, and maybe there are some things (like the play of the defense) that Arians' play calling can't change. But he can help some other things, like the way drives have been stalling out in the red zone.

Yes, the OL personnel needs to be improved. However, to say that the OL has proven they absolutely cannot do what Arians is asking them to do is going too far. The offense shows moments of really good play and moments of really bad play. I think that would happen regardless of the system in place. The Colts are about a .500 team and the offense has played like one over the course of every game. It's not like other rookie QB-lead offenses are lighting it up throughout an entire game either.

I think it's pretty clear that the offensive line can't handle the extended pass blocking that the slow developing plays requires, not with any regularity.

To the bolded, that's true. It's also true that having a rookie quarterback and a bunch of rookies on offense doesn't make things easier. But the play calling could take pressure off of the offensive line, and even teams with good offensive lines do that. We should be calling plays with hot reads and short options more often than those teams. That doesn't stunt the growth of the offensive line. It allows your offense to be more productive.

Yes, the Pats run a completely different offense than the Colts. What the Colts are running now is much closer to the 2007 Pats than the 2012 Pats. The Pats run the quick passing game pretty much regardless of opponent, so I don't think its fair to make it sound as if their game plan on Sunday was based solely on our pass rush. In this sense, the Pats play calling and overall offensive game plan for the Colts was extremely predictable. However, it worked because they are the better team and executed it. I'm fairly certain that the overall play calling and formations from the Pats surpised nobody on the Colts coaching staff or any of the players. The D just isn't good enough to do anything about it.

Their game plan isn't based just on our pass rush, but they clearly didn't want our pass rushers to get close. Lots of teams do this to us over the years. Why can't we do it to other teams?

In general, the only point I'm trying to make is that Arians isn't above criticism but he also should not be constantly shredded You may not like his system but I really don't find it to be much worse than any other system. The real knock here is that the Colts D and OL do point to the fact that he should think about fewer throws in the 11-30 yard range...however, those throws have resulted in sustaining long drives and solid ball control so it isn't all bad either. At any rate, Arians is stubborn and he's going to keep doing what he does. I'm OK with that as long as the Colts team deficiencies are addressed in the off-season. Even if he were to change this year, the Colts would still be about a .500 team who is not a legit SB contender (I'm still hoping for the playoff birth though!).

Yeah, I'm not trying to "shred" Arians. I just think his play calling is questionable a lot of the time. Particularly with the deep plays (with no hot read), and the personnel groupings he uses. I don't dislike his system; it's has some very attractive principles, especially when you have a quarterback who can make the throws. And Luck can.

I just think it should be more compact. If he uses about 20% fewer formations and personnel groupings, that would help tremendously. And if he just installed a hot read or an outlet on about 60% of his pass plays, that would help as well. And I'd be ecstatic if he added a couple middle screens to running backs.

[#12]

It is a game by game situation. The conservative came from "running against 8 man fronts" with a lead 3 times in a row.

Not only that, after a few of the dink and dunk moments we have seen(vs. Minnesota), a high number of people were clamoring for the vertical passing game(let Luck open it up). That was my point. As I recall, there was more vocal criticism from that direction than ours.

Until we play a good team like the Pats and they know the pass is coming its just a matter of one of there players making a play on the ball which they did

Did they even make a play on those throws? Those passes just got away from him.

[Larry Horseman]

My problem isn't really with Arians' calls of run vs. pass; it's that he uses so many formations and personnel groupings and shifts that it makes the plays easier to defend. That's much different than the "predictability" of the Manning/Moore offense.

And if he just installed a hot read or an outlet on about 60% of his pass plays, that would help as well. And I'd be ecstatic if he added a couple middle screens to running backs.

This has been a nice exchange. The above are two really excellent points...

[JoKeR]

Arians system is more centered towards vertical passing. high risk high reward type of offense, and as many have stated on here we dont have to O Line for that, Arians clearly does not see that, he has got to go in my opinion, Great guy, good motivator (although Paganos cancer has more to do with the motivated play) but not a good O Coordinator or HC

I just wish he had more plays with shorter, simpler routes on passing plays. Something the team can fallback on when its obvious the O-line can't give the WRs enough time to finish their routes.

[BOTT]

I just wish he had more plays with shorter, simpler routes on passing plays. Something the team can fallback on when its obvious the O-line can't give the WRs enough time to finish their routes.

it's sad, but if you wanna get a free shot on luck just run a stunt/delayed blitz....60% of the time it works everytime

[The Peytonator]

The fact that Luck is having success at all with such a poor Oline and suspect scheme, just goes to show what kind of QB we got. I've said it before, Arians was fired from Pittsburgh for a reason, and now that Haley is there Ben has been more efficient a passer than ever.

[Surge89]

The fact that Luck is having success at all with such a poor Oline and suspect scheme, just goes to show what kind of QB we got. I've said it before, Arians was fired from Pittsburgh for a reason, and now that Haley is there Ben has been more efficient a passer than ever.

Quoted for truth. Honestly needs to be quoted about 100 more times but I digress...

To address some of the positions arising here I have always since the moment arians was hired been vocal about him being a mistake. But its not that I don't like his offensive style or concept I despise his quirks that he attributes to said system. This type of offense needs desperately a run game by design but arians has completely no respect of a decent run game. This evident by looking at our average carries per game and situational running by downs.. its horrible... I think I've seen indy run it possibly twice in the red zone all year, that's really bad...

Another big part I hate from arians style is the refusal to adjust... I honestly think we could've put 40+ on the pats had we adjusted to a short/run game immediately when they decided to bring the rush because in reactive nature that football is our big play offense probably would've been back by halfway through the second quarter... Which brings me to another quirk that irritated me... I've seen us alter a game plan but NEVER get out of it even when the opponent has adjusted accordingly... Jak game anyone? The last part I could care less for is how much danger he puts our QB in and the tendancies he's starting to force luck to form... Ben is the same way spending those years in arians offense he now routinely holds onto the ball entirely too long and Haley has a cow on the side lines when he does because Haley is now trying to erase the bad habits formed.

Also to the people who are bringing up the yardage stats to support the arians offense, why is it that the steelers had similar success but a hurt QB and an eventual OC ran out of town? Ben just Luke luck had to make those plays happen which caused him to run for his life. I know many people on this forum don't give Ben credit but if you pay attention to his recent games under Haley you'd find that big Ben is starting to learn how to play the QB position.

[YOUR GM]

how do you feel about Pete Carmichael? i know he was interviewed here for HC but if Bruce were to leave for a HC, i was thinking of him or greg roman to come here

Unlikely, but I wouldn't be opposed to it. If Arians leaves, Clyde will most likely be his replacement. I don't particularly like Clyde either but I think he's better than Arians

[Mameluc]

Giants, saints, colts and steelers have dominated the super bowl the past decade and none of them are a WCO.

and Pats...i agree

[chad72]

Ben is the same way spending those years in arians offense he now routinely holds onto the ball entirely too long and Haley has a cow on the side lines when he does because Haley is now trying to erase the bad habits formed.

Also to the people who are bringing up the yardage stats to support the arians offense, why is it that the steelers had similar success but a hurt QB and an eventual OC ran out of town? Ben just Luke luck had to make those plays happen which caused him to run for his life. I know many people on this forum don't give Ben credit but if you pay attention to his recent games under Haley you'd find that big Ben is starting to learn how to play the QB position.

That is my biggest fear with those habits being ingrained in Luck. I saw Arians tutor Peyton as QB coach in 1998-2000. For the longest time, Peyton went for the farthest yardage and never took checkdowns, at least not till 2006 when we won the SB. It finally dawned on him to give it up to the best Ds that were playing 2 safeties and LBs deeper that he either had to take more checkdowns or run the ball more. Brady got IT much earlier. We used to complain about Brady being a dinker and dunker with wideouts like Givens and Patten beating us in Foxboro with methodical 80 or 90 yard drives that made our D bend and break. Brady was being smart about it, Peyton was not, in hindsight, hence all those INTs vs Law & Harrison at Foxboro.

Brady's worst playoff QB ratings with more INTs came in the years 2007-2009, yep the perfect season year included. Who did he have on his roster then? Yep, you guessed it, Randy Moss. He became pass happy and to make it worse, the best wideout had to be found long range. It worked against his favor with multiple INTs in the 2007 Chargers AFCCG that they finally won by running the ball with 3 TEs. 2008, he missed the season and in 2009, the Ravens took it to him again with multiple INTs in Foxboro and he missed Welker who went down for the season before the last game and had INTs trying to find Moss again, the only difference it was a wild card game this time.

Long range passes and bombs to Moss, Harrison and Wayne might be all fine and dandy from a yardage and "shock and awe" factor but when it comes to efficient offense and winning football, short range is king, even more so in the playoffs. Time tested history proves it, IMO. Yes, shots have to be taken down the field but much lesser than the short range game. Hopefully Luck is not tutored with those tendencies leading to bad habits.

[Surge89]

That is my biggest fear with those habits being ingrained in Luck. I saw Arians tutor Peyton as QB coach in 1998-2000. For the longest time, Peyton went for the farthest yardage and never took checkdowns, at least not till 2006 when we won the SB. It finally dawned on him to give it up to the best Ds that were playing 2 safeties and LBs deeper that he either had to take more checkdowns or run the ball more. Brady got IT much earlier. We used to complain about Brady being a dinker and dunker with wideouts like Givens and Patten beating us in Foxboro with methodical 80 or 90 yard drives that made our D bend and break. Brady was being smart about it, Peyton was not, in hindsight, hence all those INTs vs Law & Harrison at Foxboro.

Brady's worst playoff QB ratings with more INTs came in the years 2007-2009, yep the perfect season year included. Who did he have on his roster then? Yep, you guessed it, Randy Moss. He became pass happy and to make it worse, the best wideout had to be found long range. It worked against his favor with multiple INTs in the 2007 Chargers AFCCG that they finally won by running the ball with 3 TEs. 2008, he missed the season and in 2009, the Ravens took it to him again with multiple INTs in Foxboro and he missed Welker who went down for the season before the last game and had INTs trying to find Moss again, the only difference it was a wild card game this time.

Long range passes and bombs to Moss, Harrison and Wayne might be all fine and dandy from a yardage and "shock and awe" factor but when it comes to efficient offense and winning football, short range is king, even more so in the playoffs. Time tested history proves it, IMO. Yes, shots have to be taken down the field but much lesser than the short range game. Hopefully Luck is not tutored with those tendencies leading to bad habits.

Interesting observation with peyton. I had only been thinking about Ben but you make a very valid point. I'll be delving deep into this one.

[#12]

That is my biggest fear with those habits being ingrained in Luck. I saw Arians tutor Peyton as QB coach in 1998-2000. For the longest time, Peyton went for the farthest yardage and never took checkdowns, at least not till 2006 when we won the SB. It finally dawned on him to give it up to the best Ds that were playing 2 safeties and LBs deeper that he either had to take more checkdowns or run the ball more. Brady got IT much earlier. We used to complain about Brady being a dinker and dunker with wideouts like Givens and Patten beating us in Foxboro with methodical 80 or 90 yard drives that made our D bend and break. Brady was being smart about it, Peyton was not, in hindsight, hence all those INTs vs Law & Harrison at Foxboro.

Sorry, Chad, but that's a gross oversimplification, and inaccurate in areas. Football isn't a one-dimensional, offense-only sport. Brady was successful early on largely due to the play of his defense and special teams. Had he played in the same style with a pathetic defense, without turnovers, pick 6's or big plays from his special teams, he would have lost the same games by three TDs. Why has his manner of play changed over the years? Out of necessity, due to his defense going south. With the performance of his pass defense today, were he to revert to his '01-'04 style, the Patriots would be a 4-12 team. Over the past few years he has learned what it was like for Manning his entire career.

Long range passes and bombs to Moss, Harrison and Wayne might be all fine and dandy from a yardage and "shock and awe" factor but when it comes to efficient offense and winning football, short range is king, even more so in the playoffs.

One could argue the past five Super Bowls have been won by gunslingers. Did Eli take down the Pats on the final drives by dinking and dunking? No, he did so by slinging it.

Could the Colts use more quick-hitting passes? Yes. But speaking in absolutes, as you have done here, leads to faulty conclusions.

[GrizzColt]

Correct. Dinking and dunking is not the way to go. we just need to get better up front. The year Peyton broke Marino' record, he went deep a lot...and to a lot of different receivers. His oline was pretty good that year.

[chad72]

Sorry, Chad, but that's a gross oversimplification, and inaccurate in areas. Football isn't a one-dimensional, offense-only sport. Brady was successful early on largely due to the play of his defense and special teams. Had he played in the same style with a pathetic defense, without turnovers, pick 6's or big plays from his special teams, he would have lost the same games by three TDs. Why has his manner of play changed over the years? Out of necessity, due to his defense going south.

One could argue the past five Super Bowls have been won by gunslingers. Did Eli take down the Pats on the final drives by dinking and dunking? No, he did so by slinging it.

Could the Colts use more quick-hitting passes? Yes. But speaking in absolutes, as you have done here, leads to faulty conclusions.

No, that is not true about Brady. He did take shots down the field when necessary (Deion Branch TD in 2004 AFCCG vs Steelers, several passes to Branch in Panthers SB) but primarily, he played smart with passes in the less than 20 yard range, did not turn the ball over and did not hurt his team. Yes, his D and ST played very well but Brady did play smart.

Eli had one big pass to Tyree and one big pass to Manningham in those SBs on those final drives. The majority of Eli's passes were the short ones to Cruz and Nicks in SB 46, to Kevin Boss, Steve Smith and Plax in SB 42, even during the entire playoff runs. If you look at the number of passes over 20 yards completed, it wont even be close. Anything less than 20 yards can clearly be stated as intermediate passing. Brees dinked and dunked us to death, going against his gun slinging habits that we were defending against, to win his SB. Rodgers is the only one I will give you completed more large yardage passes in a recent SB. Big Ben won his SB because of YAC that Santonio Holmes generated. It does not equate to gunslinging by any means, you are the ones making blanket statements. We are not talking what the QB can do and has a tendency to do, we are talking about what the QB actually did on the field, and gun slinging is far from it in the last 5 SBs won.

Now, Brady's primary weapons are his TEs, so it fits into the intermediate passing concept. His pass happy nature has changed because of the offensive weapons they have around him to adapt to the passing league and DBs that mug wideouts like Law became obsolete and Belichick has not been able to get secondary options worth anything since Asante Samuel left (which you did infer to, I agree there). But this year, they incorporated the run in to make teams respect it more. I know very well football is a team sport but I am purely talking offensive efficiency in the regular season and the playoffs too, where it starts to matter more. I did not say dinking and dunking is the way to go, a combo of dinking and dunking (less than 10 yards) plus intermediate passing is the way to go primarily against good Ds in the playoffs instead of a combo of intermediate passing and long yardage bombs. Long yardage (20+) bombs will always be few and far between but that is not how Arians runs his system, IMO, which I firmly believe will be detrimental to Luck if it is not tweaked.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Correct. Dinking and dunking is not the way to go. we just need to get better up front. The year Peyton broke Marino' record, he went deep a lot...and to a lot of different receivers. His oline was pretty good that year.

How do you define deep? I'm having trouble buying that statement.

[BOTT]

Interesting observation with peyton. I had only been thinking about Ben but you make a very valid point. I'll be delving deep into this one.

not sure i would blame arians for what peyton was doing or not doing in his early days.....we all know who the oc was and who had a much greater influence on manning....and well, manning was just young.

[Surge89]

not sure i would blame arians for what peyton was doing or not doing in his early days.....we all know who the oc was and who had a much greater influence on manning....and well, manning was just young.

That's true and you make a valid point but it is hard to argue tendencies are acquired when your young and Arians has been a part of 3 QBs which all have had similar quirks to their game. Is it Arians fault or coincidence? Well never know but is interesting to compare. Plus hard to ignore he had all 3 when they were young.

[FalseStart]

"Strike First! Strike Hard. No Mercy Sir." -Cobra Khan Dojo

[GrizzColt]

How do you define deep? I'm having trouble buying that statement.

Chad established some values. Under 10 is dinking. 10-20 intermediate. 20+ deep. I'll agree with those. Are you saying that Manning threw numerous passes under 10 yards? Since he almost never threw a screen, the only dink he ever threw was that little slant to Reggie...at least that I remember. If you have access to the stats, I would like to see them. I am going by what's left of my memory.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Chad established some values. Under 10 is dinking. 10-20 intermediate. 20+ deep. I'll agree with those. Are you saying that Manning threw numerous passes under 10 yards? Since he almost never threw a screen, the only dink he ever threw was that little slant to Reggie...at least that I remember. If you have access to the stats, I would like to see them. I am going by what's left of my memory.

I'm saying that he rarely stretched the field.. DEEP like 30+ Deep.

2004

Based on those labels in 2004 he:

Dinked: 270 passes/18 touchdowns

Intermediate:159 passes/15 touchdowns

Deep: 68 passes 16 touchdowns

He threw short far more than he threw deep, the meat of his attempts was 1-20 yards.

[GrizzColt]

I'm saying that he rarely stretched the field.. DEEP like 30+ Deep.

2004

Based on those labels in 2004 he:

Dinked: 270 passes/18 touchdowns

Intermediate:159 passes/15 touchdowns

Deep: 68 passes 16 touchdowns

He threw short far more than he threw deep, the meat of his attempts was 1-20 yards.

The touchdowns are almost identical among the 3 categories.. making the longer throws THE most efficient of the group. Right? That is the point of this thread. When the Oline helps, throwing deep can be the most productive way to go. Even though Manning threw more to the other ranges, that could just be Manning picking his poison or that could be Manning in the red zone a whole lot more often than not. Manning would have to have been in the red zone an awful lot to break Marino's record. Why don't you pull Brady's stats the year he broke Manning's record. I would guess that you would see far more dinking and dunking, even though he had Moss that year. I could be wrong.

[chad72]

I'm saying that he rarely stretched the field.. DEEP like 30+ Deep.

2004

Based on those labels in 2004 he:

Dinked: 270 passes/18 touchdowns

Intermediate:159 passes/15 touchdowns

Deep: 68 passes 16 touchdowns

He threw short far more than he threw deep, the meat of his attempts was 1-20 yards.

Would you happen to have numbers for the playoffs for Peyton from say 1999-2005, and 2006 onwards, when the Ds are supposed to be better? I know it is a lot of work and I appreciate what you have provided. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks again for shedding more light on this.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Would you happen to have numbers for the playoffs for Peyton from say 1999-2005, and 2006 onwards? I know it is a lot of work and I appreciate what you have provided. Just thought I'd ask.

Thanks again for shedding more light on this.

#'s Yes.

Broken down that way? No.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The touchdowns are almost identical among the 3 categories.. making the longer throws THE most efficient of the group. Right? That is the point of this thread. When the Oline helps, throwing deep can be the most productive way to go. Even though Manning threw more to the other ranges, that could just be Manning picking his poison or that could be Manning in the red zone a whole lot more often than not. Manning would have to have been in the red zone an awful lot to break Marino's record. Why don't you pull Brady's stats the year he broke Manning's record. I would guess that you would see far more dinking and dunking, even though he had Moss that year. I could be wrong.

For those 3 categories it's equal, but I'm not sure i would call a 20-30 yard pass deep. It's not short by any means but it's not taking the top off the defense like 40+.

Brady threw more passes overall, and threw shorter and longer more often. Mannning had higher totals in the middle.

Red zone comparison.

Brady threw 34 RZ touchdowns.

Manning threw 31 RZ touchdowns.

[chad72]

#'s Yes.

Broken down that way? No.

#s would do for a start.

[FireJimCaldwell]

A little bit more elaborate look.

[FireJimCaldwell]

#s would do for a start.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MannPe00/gamelog/post/

Or are you looking for year by year totals?

[chad72]

http://www.pro-footb...0/gamelog/post/

Or are you looking for year by year totals?

The same breakdown that you had for range of yardage attempted in the regular season stats is what I am looking for in Peyton's playoff games.

[FireJimCaldwell]

The same breakdown that you had for range of yardage attempted in the regular season stats is what I am looking for in Peyton's playoff games.

No, I've never seen anyone break it down like that for the post-season. I misunderstood what you were asking for. I have the core #'s but not in that format/breakdown.

[chad72]

No, I've never seen anyone break it down like that for the post-season. I misunderstood what you were asking for. I have the core #'s but not in that format/breakdown.

Tell me this. Is yards per attempt calculated based on completed passes or attempted passes? If attempted passes, do INTs factor into them?

[FireJimCaldwell]

Tell me this. Is yards per attempt calculated based on completed passes or attempted passes? If attempted passes, do INTs factor into them?

8/10 160 yards 2 td 1 int.

16.0 yp attempt

20.0 yp catch

​20% td %

10% int %

It's based on pass attempts whether the pass is incomplete, a touchdown, intercepted, spiked, batted down, etc.

[GrizzColt]

I don't want Luck killed either, but I wouldn't want to go to the Dark Side either (Brady offense) Reminds me of the Pat Riley Knicks. They became so physical that the beauty of basketball was lost. Well, the Brady offense, to me, has taken away the beauty of football. It is tedious, meticulous, short, detailed, consistent, predictable and boring...Some of you might appreciate that, but i don't. I think Brady should have the title "Super Game Manager".

[Gavin]

I don't want Luck killed either, but I wouldn't want to go to the Dark Side either (Brady offense) Reminds me of the Pat Riley Knicks. They became so physical that the beauty of basketball was lost. Well, the Brady offense, to me, has taken away the beauty of football. It is tedious, meticulous, short, detailed, consistent, predictable and boring...Some of you might appreciate that, but i don't. I think Brady should have the title "Super Game Manager".

How can a game manager at one time break the record for most passing touchdowns in a season with 49 which included 6 passing touchdowns vs Miami and appear in 5 Super Bowls?, Consistent is the most important word you said out of those 7 you used to describe the Pats offense, I dont think 49 touchdowns (6 coming in one game) is boring, predictable? yes but those kinds of passes are heck to stop, we should know, teams have been dinking and dunking on us for years with short quick routes all the way down the field. The other method obviously works of slingiing it down the field sure but alot more risks are involved