Winston Justice is a good RT

[HtownColt]

So did Justice, except he didn't block anyone while attempting to do so

It was Fleener's fault. its was 2 weeks ago its old news. on to Cleveland

[YOUR GM]

You are trying to call Nick Perry one of Green Bays top pass rushers? Are you sure about that?

Is it unusual to see a Tight End block a linebacker?

Nick Perry is an outside linebaker in a Dom Capers 3-4 defense. His primary task is to rush the passer. On that side of the field, yes, Nick Perry was the most dangerous pass rusher on that play. I'd venture to say that Nick Perry is a markely better pass rusher than Fleener is a pass blocker. You don't leave him one-on-one with a primary pass rusher. You just don't

[Superman]

I'll admit, I was ready to give up on Justice after the Packers game. He got Luck hit (i'm guessing that play wasn't brought into the equation of the site's research that the OP linked because the Packers were penalized for roughing the passer), had numerous false starts and allowed pressures as well. I still don't think those numbers sound completely accurate but I was impressed with Justice in the Jets game. He held his own against Pace quite a few times without any help at all.

I'll give props where they are due, and hope he'll continue to build off the last game

The numbers are what they are, but I don't think it's an effective way to determine how well an offensive lineman is pass protecting. And obviously, it has no bearing on run blocking.

They say Justice has allowed two pressures, but I wonder how they determine whether a player gave up a pressure. For instance, we all went back and forth on this board about the Nick Perry hit, and it's hard to tell exactly who messed up on that play, Justice or Fleener. So does that pressure go against Justice? And if so, or if not, should it?

Or, how about a blown assignment that doesn't result in a pressure because the quarterback got rid of the ball quickly? The blocker could have done a horrible job, but because the defender didn't get near the quarterback it's not counted as a pressure. This stat doesn't take that into consideration. Just like with any other stat, there are ways to nitpick. I think this stat is far more effective for grading blockers in the backfield than it is linemen or tight ends.

But what this does help one to appreciate is that Justice is doing a decent job in pass protection. Just two pressures in 173 snaps is still impressive, and even with the margin for error (which applies to every player on that list), his ranking is still going to be near or at the top. So he does deserve credit. It's just not a conclusive determination regarding how he's played so far.

It also should be noted that he's been far less effective in run blocking, which is the glaring weakness on our offense.

[Superman]

I bet if you re-watch the games Justice is responsible for more than 2 pressures.

I bet if you rewatch the games, all those guys are responsible for more than what they're being credited with. The margin for error does exist, but it applies to everyone. And so, with Justice at the top of the list, even knocking him down a few pegs still leaves him in pretty decent standing.

Not the be-all and end-all, but it's certainly better than being at the bottom, or in the middle. And I'm pretty sure if he were at the bottom, there would be a contingent of fans using that stat to complain about how bad he is.

[Superman]

The problem is the middle of the line. That's where our focus needs to be this offseason.

Justice is a free agent as well. It's certainly worth considering whether we can upgrade that position in the offseason.

[krunk]

Nick Perry is an outside linebaker in a Dom Capers 3-4 defense. His primary task is to rush the passer. On that side of the field, yes, Nick Perry was the most dangerous pass rusher on that play. I'd venture to say that Nick Perry is a markely better pass rusher than Fleener is a pass blocker. You don't leave him one-on-one with a primary pass rusher. You just don't

So you balance that by running the tackle out of his position to catch a pass rusher who has already flown around the corner? The tackle is already out of position to make the play.

[YOUR GM]

So you balance that by running the tackle out of his position to catch a pass rusher who has already flown around the corner? The tackle is already out of position to make the play.

You're not getting what I'm saying. Fleener's job was to push Perry outside to widen his pursuit angle so Justice could get deep enough to recover, THEN work back inside. You don't put Fleener on Perry one-on-one and not expect that play to get blown up. That's poor scheming.

[RGIII]

Seemed to me like your OTs were wretched in pass pro (overwhelmingly Castonzo's fault) and your interior OL was even more wretched in run blocking with each group being at least respectable in opposite roles when they weren't overloaded. You guys would probably be a better team if the reverse was true.

[phailing101]

Kalil was one heck of a draft pick for Minn.

I've only watched two Minn games but he HANDLES guys.

[Superman]

You're not getting what I'm saying. Fleener's job was to push Perry outside to widen his pursuit angle so Justice could get deep enough to recover, THEN work back inside. You don't put Fleener on Perry one-on-one and not expect that play to get blown up. That's poor scheming.

That's what I think.

[Gavin]

At first I wasn't sure if this thread was serious, I will make this short, Justice has done decent at RT yes, but Justice and his slow feet are clearly a career backup, dont mistake Luck avoiding pressure and sacks for good O Line play, clearly there have been some pass protection calls that have been stupid (lets just call the Fleener on Perry call just what it is just like the Dallas Clark on Mario Williams plays last year in the first game) but Justice is not a starting RT ask Philly heck I bet Grigson thinks the same thing although obviously he wouldn't say it....so much for short, oh well

[krunk]

At first I wasn't sure if this thread was serious, I will make this short, Justice has done decent at RT yes, but Justice and his slow feet are clearly a career backup, dont mistake Luck avoiding pressure and sacks for good O Line play, clearly there have been some pass protection calls that have been stupid (lets just call the Fleener on Perry call just what it is just like the Dallas Clark on Mario Williams plays last year in the first game) but Justice is not a starting RT ask Philly heck I bet Grigson thinks the same thing although obviously he wouldn't say it....so much for short, oh well

I am not a huge Justice fan, nor do I think he is a pro bowler. I do think he is an adequate tackle maybe even better than Ryan Diem was. I'm still not sure where you get this "slow feet" thing from? He's got the lowest amount of QB pressures than many lineman in this league of whom you probably would say do not have "slow feet". I think that pressures allowed is a telling stat, because it takes away your claim of having slow feet. If Luck were scrambling away due to pressures from Justice or his "slow feet", then Justice would have a higher number of pressures that would be attributed to him. Also his sack numbers would be up because his slow feet would have him missing his blocks quite often. Based on the numbers at this point I would start saying Costanzo has "slow feet" and not Justice. Gavin you just don't like Justice, somewhat in the same way you don't like Donnie Avery.

[Gavin]

where is this pressure stat your getting because Luck has been under alot of pressure all season from all angles, it doesn't take a pro scout to notice his slow feet, Im not sure how you can come to the conclusion I dont like Avery or Justice just because I see what the Eagles saw and that is that he has not lived up to expectations and is a backup, as far as Avery he had one eye popping game, he flashed what he is capable of. I have never doubted the guys potential but 1 great game doesn't make him all of a sudden great or good it just makes him INCONSISTENT

[krunk]

where is this pressure stat your getting because Luck has been under alot of pressure all season from all angles, it doesn't take a pro scout to notice his slow feet, Im not sure how you can come to the conclusion I dont like Avery or Justice just because I see what the Eagles saw and that is that he has not lived up to expectations and is a backup, as far as Avery he had one eye popping game, he flashed what he is capable of. I have never doubted the guys potential but 1 great game doesn't make him all of a sudden great or good it just makes him INCONSISTENT

Are you sure you read the OP? The stat is sitting right in the very 1st post. That's were everyone in this thread is getting it from. As far as Avery goes, you have not been very high on Avery almost from the beginning. Constantly quoting how injury prone he was and how bad his hands were, along with other comments stating you didn't expect very much of him. No we have no statement from you saying "I Don't Like Avery" but you sure leave enough to give us a gist. I recently made a statement myself saying Avery can be inconsistent so I agree with the last part of your post.

[Gavin]

you expect me to believe Justice has only given up 2 pressures this season? your right I was never high on Avery with good reason, he has alot of talent he hasn't lived up to, he can easily be a 1000 yard receiver once you factor in his blazing speed, I'd like to see Avery get the ball more

[BOTT]

And? Did this ex-linemen talk to Justice, Fleener and the coaches to come to that determination? I don't see how you're trying to completely exonerate Justice from any blame on that play. He literally blocked NO ONE and watched his QB get killed. It's conceivable that the line was outschemed by Greenbay, but the fact still remains that Justice didn't block anyone. He shares at least some of the blame in that play

and he played in the nfl as an offensive lineman an you have not....sorry if i side with him over myself and someone from this forum.

[YOUR GM]

and he played in the nfl as an offensive lineman an you have not....sorry if i side with him over myself and someone from this forum.

You don't have to apologize. Still doesn't change the fact that his opinion holds as little weight as ours if he hasn't talked to any of the people involved with the play.

[BOTT]

I bet if you re-watch the games Justice is responsible for more than 2 pressures.

i watched the coaches tape on nfl.com and that is about right. i only really remember one pressure and he was knocked on his butt..

i think this is another case of people just accepting a narrative....people have stated he's mediocre and people just accept it on this board, despite evidence to the contrary.

[BOTT]

You don't have to apologize. Still doesn't change the fact that his opinion holds as little weight as ours if he hasn't talked to any of the people involved with the play.

sadly you probably actually believe that

[YOUR GM]

sadly you probably actually believe that

Poorly worded but you get my point. Ex-linemen or not, he's still just another talking head with an opinion. I've heard other NFL players of greater prestige state uninformed opinions, as well (and were proven wrong). He doesn't know the play call or blocking assignments on that play and neither do we.

[cbear]

I've been pretty ambivilent to the performance of our RT as I've focused more on our poor interior line play, so I was a bit suprised by this ranking. I just went back and watched the GB and NY game and sure enough Justice did very well. I counted three hurries, but two of them was hard to tell if it was a scheme problem or not. But one on one, he only gave up 1 maybe 2 hurries. He gave up 2 hits, but again, hard to say whose fault they were (I count the Perry hit in this category). He also did well in run blocking which surprised me as well. In the GB game, we actually ran quite a bit to the right side and had success there.

On the downside, Satele continues to underwhelm me. He has the worst balance of any center I've seen in a while. Same with Link.

[Gavin]

It seems to me Satele gets caught leaning forward quite a bit which makes it fairly easy for Nose Tackle to shove him forward or perform a swim move and get right by him, I dont know if its just technique for him or a blocking sceme issue for him as well

[cbear]

It seems to me Satele gets caught leaning forward quite a bit which makes it fairly easy for Nose Tackle to shove him forward or perform a swim move and get right by him, I dont know if its just technique for him or a blocking sceme issue for him as well

The next game, try and count how many times Satele is on his butt, many times without even being hit.

[Gavin]

The next game, try and count how many times Satele is on his butt, many times without even being hit.

In fairness to Satele I dont believe he is 100 percent but I watched a game from last year and saw the same thing, he is good when no one is over him, he is good at getting to the 2nd level in my opinion but plays off balance

[GoColts8818]

Justice is a free agent as well. It's certainly worth considering whether we can upgrade that position in the offseason.

I don't really have a problem with us bringing Justice back. I think he's one of those guys if he's your fourth of fifth best o-lineman you probably have a good line. If he's your second best lineman like he has been for us this year you are probably in trouble. I would rather re-sign Justice for fairly cheap money and go out and get a couple of guards than go after a tackle and maybe not address the guard poistion at all. That's my point the main problem is the middle of the line. Now with that said Reitz one of the starters has yet to play during the regular season. Maybe him coming back will help fix the line.

[RomanianColtsFan]

So the Colts will have their starting OL on the field for the first time this Season.