"Has Brady lost his magic?"

[southwest1]

I like the way you think and I've always liked you, Jules! .

I know you love to hate all things Patriot-related, but two points:

2. Are you willing to make the same acknowledgement that the Colts defense's historic turn-around in the 2006 playoffs also had quite a bit to do with Peyton Manning getting his ring? They held the Chiefs to 8 points and the Ravens to 6 before the AFCCG with the Patriots. And in the second half of that game, while Manning was working his magic, the Indy D pretty much shut the Pats down and gave #18 the chance to be the hero.

Or would you rather openly operate under a double-standard? ;)

No he hasn't lost his magic. He's a far better now than at any point of when he won a Super Bowl.

I will gladly and honestly admit that defense was instrumental in winning the 2006 Colts SB Championship GoPats, especially Safety Bob Sanders. No double standard delusion here. And to FJC's point, naturally Tom Brady's magic has not disappeared 1 ounce IMO.

[Moose Of Woe]

What QB responds well too pressure or broken pockets except maybe Big Ben or Michael Vick?

Most don't respond well to pressure, it's of varying degree. Some just handle it better than others. For an all time great, I expect someone of Brady's caliber to respond better than he does. Brady doesn't need to be a scrambler, he just needs to throw the ball away, check it down, or go for that tough throw instead of eating a sack. Taking a sack. Well no matter how I word that it comes out wrong but you know what I mean. Aside from Welker/Branch his TE's and Lloyd are pretty tall. There is no reason he shouldn't be able to get it to spots only those guys can get it. (Which he can, when he has plenty of time...but we're talking about when he's hurried)

I don't think Brady holds the ball too long. He is simply waiting for Welker, Gronk, or another weapon to break free of coverage.

And that's exactly why he holds on to the ball too long. He IS simply waiting for Welker, Gronk, or another weapon to break free so he can hit a wide open target for an easy pitch and catch as opposed to making the tougher throw or throwing the ball away. If nobody busts wide open he often gets sacked and, from time to time, he even throws intentional grounding.

In addition, to Brady's credit when he is sacked, he doesn't fumble, give up valuable touchdowns or field position

He just went for a -20 yard spinarooni about two weeks ago VS Denver. McGahee bailed him out in kind. You're right that it doesn't happen often, though. It also didn't happen in the past many times a DE can even get close enough to breathe the same air as Brady. Not within 5 seconds at least. This year isn't over yet, so we'll see.

Also I worded poorly "Mediocre to Sanchez." I didn't mean looked mediocre COMPARED to Sanchez, just mediocre - poor. Sanchez is synonymous with poor QB play. I'd take Brady on a poor day than Sanchez on a career one.

[bayone]

I will gladly and honestly admit that defense was instrumental in winning the 2006 Colts SB Championship GoPats, especially Safety Bob Sanders. No double standard delusion here. And to FJC's point, naturally Tom Brady's magic has not disappeared 1 ounce IMO.

2006 with Sanders back for playoff run the only year Colts D was healthy during playoffs

It still amazes me that we didnt go for perfect season during last run to SB 44 to ensure player health, congrats pats on BB keeping it on, ( In fact I think all those times we didnt play the last week save for 1 series when had a bye just hurt momentum )

YET when easily beating jets with just less than 2 minutes left in afc champ game Freeney is left in and once again is injured , and this one just in time for SB ( Caldwell probably thought Sanchez was Peyton so was still worried & Polian should have called down to tell Caldwell to take him out if player health was so much concern )

I will not claim thats why we lost but will say Freeny mracuosly played well & Brees under much pressure & Saints offense ineffective in first half but the halftime pause allowed that ankle to swell & he was ineffective then

Good Night

[Moose Of Woe]

Wait, who is saying our D (for once) contributing in the 2006 playoffs WASN'T instrumental in the SB win?

D and Vinny were the MVPs of the entire Ravens game. O did enough to win against the best D in football, but it was all D and Vinny this game.

D and O together took care of the other 3.

Special teams sucked as usual throughout.

Basically 2/3 of a good team was enough to get the job done. Well, and one Rex Grossman.

Throughout the regular season, as usual, the Colts made the playoffs by virtue of the offense alone. The D might have a good game here or there, but it was usually once the O built a lead and NEVER. EVER. consistent from game to game.

By some unholy power the D got off the bus for four games straight (which happened to be the playoffs) and we nearly had a complete team. It was pretty refreshing.

[bayone]

I know some of the :brady: fans will be on here......Brady will have the Patriots in the AFC Championship.....whether he has lost anything or not IMO. Now that the Jets are 'mouthing off again' about the 'borderline illegal offense' BB and McRoberts are running....I smell a 44-6 hammering this weekend. By the way....there is absolutely nothing illegal about said offense....it will work 95% of the time with teams with poor secondaries....and those who play predominantly Cover 2...

One of the ESPN guys said this AM Ryan Mallett was the best back up in the league......I honestly have not watched much of him.....curious about true Patriots fans....clue me in! Thanks!

Quite Possibly and he hasnt lost any Magic nor has BB

[Moose Of Woe]

With the Ravens and Texans losing key players, it wouldn't surprise me one bit to see the Pats in the SB again. The loss of Lewis for the Ravens and Cushing for the Texans are devastating to their respective teams alone. The Ravens in particular also have other stars banged up.

Giants Pats part III?

[southwest1]

Moose of Woe,

I won't hold that Sanchez comment against you. There is no direct comparison between the QBs and I know that you know that. Okay, perhaps you're right. Maybe arguably the best, or amongst the top 2 QB's in the NFL, should throw the ball away more than he does, but we aren't talking Brett Favre interception king territory here either. I would rather have my QB eat the ball for a loss vs turn the ball over on downs. If Brady isn't a speed demon on his feet exactly, what do you expect him to do? Brady can wait, slide, creep forward in the pocket and throw the ball for a large completion like he usually does 9 times out of 10. Plus, Brady has money backs now in Bolden and Ridley. Something the Patriots haven't had since Corey Dillion IMO.

I see where you are coming from Moose Of Woe, but you can't say that you has never seen him throw the ball away. Yes, it is rare because he is confident and he believes he can move the chains every down. Brady doesn't make foolish decisions. Just like Peyton, you might fool him once, but that's it. Once he has figured out your secondary, "say goodnight Gracie" it's over.

[Moose Of Woe]

Brady (like Manning) also does, you have to admit, help make his line look good sometimes. Maybe it's a shuffle-step, or maybe it's just having good enough pocket awareness to know when to get the ball out.

If he has nothing to do with that, then the Patriots must have drafted very intelligently over the years, since his line in 2001 was completely different from recent years.

Not applicable to this season, but it years past having nobody around you really doesn't require much pocket awareness. That's the line completely owning the other team. At a few moments last season Brady had over TEN SECONDS to throw the football with NOBODY near him.

The line he has now is akin to what he had in his earlier days. Good, but not BEAST MODE.

Having said that, Brady did extend the play in seasons past with some slick moves. However, I've noticed a lot less of that this season. The big one that comes to mind is when he ran for a TD that wasn't really a TD. (Which didn't matter since the opposing team got absolutely destroyed, it was the Bills or Titans..can't remember)

[hawkeyes]

What Magic? Didn't know he was a magician!

Actually, I'm surprised the dink and dunk lasted as long as it did - this year they've had to try a new twist with the super-mo no huddle - IMO that wont last long - it just cant!... The system might change but one thing will never change he is getting older so the old dog will have to learn some new tricks.

[Moose Of Woe]

Moose of Woe,

I won't hold that Sanchez comment against you. There is no direct comparison between the QBs and I know that you know that. Okay, perhaps you're right. Maybe arguably the best, or amongst the top 2 QB's in the NFL, should throw the ball away more than he does, but we aren't talking Brett Favre interception king territory here either. I would rather have my QB eat the ball for a loss vs turn the ball over on downs. If Brady isn't a speed demon on his feet exactly, what do you expect him to do? Brady can wait, slide, creep forward in the pocket and throw the ball for a large completion like he usually does 9 times out of 10. Plus, Brady has money backs now in Bolden and Ridley. Something the Patriots haven't had since Corey Dillion IMO.

I see where you are coming from Moose Of Woe, but you can't say that he has never seen him throw the ball away. Yes, it is rare because he is confident and he believes he can move the chains every down. Brady doesn't make foolish decisions. Just like Peyton, you might fool him once, but that's it. Once he has figured out your secondary, "say goodnight Gracie" it's over.

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. I'm not saying INT King Favre is better than Brady lol! I never said he NEVER throws the ball away, I'm saying it doesn't happen often and feel he should make use of those great weapons he has by threading the needle. For an indisputable top 3 QB in the league (no matter what anyone things of him) I think those are throws a QB of such moxie should be able to throw. He should be able to make those throws when hurried, not just when he has time to pick and choose his sixth read of the field.

Yes, I said MOXIE.

I'm not counting scenarios where a DE completely comes through a Linkenbach and pounds the QB in 1.5-2 seconds flat. Unless it's a case of a QB not assigning blockers/protection that's all on execution (of failure of) the O-line.

[Moose Of Woe]

Brady (like Manning) also does, you have to admit, help make his line look good sometimes. Maybe it's a shuffle-step, or maybe it's just having good enough pocket awareness to know when to get the ball out.

If he has nothing to do with that, then the Patriots must have drafted very intelligently over the years, since his line in 2001 was completely different from recent years.

Regarding Manning's line, he didn't dress that up at all. It WAS very good in his earlier years regardless of Peyton. (2000-2005ish) 1998-1999 were ok. In 2006 it started to get a little shaky. Then, after the SB, Glenn retired. 2007 saw significant steps backward in both pass and run blocking. Anyone who didn't see it was blind or simply didn't want to admit it.

From 2008 onward Manning was more or less running for his life on nearly every snap. No pass protection, no run blocking. You're talking 2-3 seconds to get rid of it or get KILLED. It got worse in 2009. It somehow got even WORSE in 2010.

Enter/Exit Collins, Painter, Luck. The only difference was Manning made quick reads/decisions and got rid of the football with one of the fastest releases in the NFL. On top of being accurate and having a great timing regimen with his receiver corps. At this point, the corps was frequently banged up aside from Wayne. No more Marvin for those last few years, either.

Back to the line, Manning didn't make it look better. It was what it was. IT SUCKED. The D SUCKED in spite of having to play to "hold on" most of the time. Manning and the O helped the D, but didn't make it look better. Outside the 2006 playoff runs and brief flashes of brilliance one game at a time it was never, ever, decent. Special teams? That's a good one. They sucked more than the line and D. Somehow. (Return/coverage wise...kickers were always good aside from Vanderjagt in the playoffs)

In Denver, Manning actually has a decent O-line. In fact it's pretty good pass protection wise. Run blocking leaves a bit to be desired, but it's better than what he had in Indy for 4-5 seasons. Completely independent of Manning, Denver has a good pass blocking O-line.

Brady's line, by the same token, is what it is independent of QB. Decent-good pass blocking and the jury is still out on run blocking.

[southwest1]

2006 with Sanders back for playoff run the only year Colts D was healthy during playoffs

It still amazes me that we didnt go for perfect season during last run to SB 44 to ensure player health, congrats pats on BB keeping it on, ( In fact I think all those times we didnt play the last week save for 1 series when had a bye just hurt momentum )

YET when easily beating jets with just less than 2 minutes left in afc champ game Freeney is left in and once again is injured , and this one just in time for SB ( Caldwell probably thought Sanchez was Peyton so was still worried & Polian should have called down to tell Caldwell to take him out if player health was so much concern )

I will not claim thats why we lost but will say Freeny mracuosly played well & Brees under much pressure & Saints offense ineffective in first half but the halftime pause allowed that ankle to swell & he was ineffective then

Good Night

On a slightly different note, I often wonder how many Championships Peyton would have if he switched teams with the NY Giants and Eli went to Indianapolis...Can you imagine what #18 could do with the Giants o-line and that fantastic pass rush that would get the ball back multiple times for Peyton. Jesus, if #18 had the G-Men's line in his prime...WOW! Maybe 3 SB Rings who knows.

I know speculation is usually counterproductive and I do love INDY, but I must confess pondering how things might have been different with a Manning team switch occasionally. But, then again Tom Moore was vital to molding #18's core offensive philosophies too and I cannot discount that vital fact either.

[southwest1]

Whoa. Whoa. Whoa. I'm not saying INT King Favre is better than Brady lol! I never said he NEVER throws the ball away, I'm saying it doesn't happen often and feel he should make use of those great weapons he has by threading the needle. For an indisputable top 3 QB in the league (no matter what anyone things of him) I think those are throws a QB of such moxie should be able to throw. He should be able to make those throws when hurried, not just when he has time to pick and choose his sixth read of the field.

Yes, I said MOXIE.

I'm not counting scenarios where a DE completely comes through a Linkenbach and pounds the QB in 1.5-2 seconds flat. Unless it's a case of a QB not assigning blockers/protection that's all on execution (of failure of) the O-line.

I never said that you were making a direct comparison to Brett Farve. You missed my point entirely I'm afraid. An incomplete pass or a sack doesn't bother me as much as a pick does. It's all about keeping your defense fresh, rested, alert, and not exhausted. To me, a franchise HOF QB like Brady or Manning is defined by the mistakes they don't make vs the ones they do. Win the game NOT LOSE THE GAME by a foolish lack of concentration. I apologize if I misinterpreted anything you said Moose Of Woe. It wasn't intentional.

[Demon]

Never had any magic. Relied on his kicker in the big game. Eli > Brady.

[Moose Of Woe]

I never said that you were making a direct comparison to Brett Farve. You missed my point entirely I'm afraid. An incomplete pass or a sack doesn't bother me as much as a pick does. It's all about keeping your defense fresh, rested, alert, and not exhausted. To me, a franchise HOF QB like Brady or Manning is defined by the mistakes they don't make vs the ones they do. Win the game NOT LOSE THE GAME by a foolish lack of concentration. I apologize if I misinterpreted anything you said Moose Of Woe. It wasn't intentional.

I know what you mean with "Gunslinger" Grampa literally throwing games out the window.

I'm just saying...for a guy in the discussion of GOAT a QB should be able to make throws when hurried to a guy who isn't wide open. NOBODY wants a game changing INT against you, but if you're accurate and collected as one can be on the move that shouldn't be an issue. Instead of taking the sack or grounding it, throw it away or make a pass a great QB should be able to make.

Brady, as good as he is, I do hold to a higher standard than 30 QB's in the league. (Manning, RODGAHS being the other two) He's earned that. While he is indisputably hard working and intelligent, now is the time to impress that he can make the smart choices and make the great throws - WITHOUT having all the time in the world to do it.

Brady still has a decent line and good team overall, and there is no reason the Patriots should be struggling. The ONLY weakness the Patriots have is their secondary - and most teams lack the talent/QB to exploit it. At the same time, the Pats line is still good enough most teams can't get to Brady consistently. The line, and overall team, is good enough to win every game they've been in.

IMO, even at 3-3, the Pats are a top 5 team talent wise. The secondary keeps it from being the best in football. With the Texans and Ravens getting beat up, I can't see any team in the AFC stopping them en route to the Super Bowl.

[southwest1]

I know what you mean with "Gunslinger" Grampa literally throwing games out the window.

I'm just saying...for a guy in the discussion of GOAT a QB should be able to make throws when hurried to a guy who isn't wide open. NOBODY wants a game changing INT against you, but if you're accurate and collected as one can be on the move that shouldn't be an issue. Instead of taking the sack or grounding it, throw it away or make a pass a great QB should be able to make.

Brady, as good as he is, I do hold to a higher standard than 29 QB's in the league. He's earned that. While he is indisputably hard working and intelligent, now is the time to impress that he can make the smart choices and make the great throws - WITHOUT having all the time in the world to do it. Brady still has a decent line and good team overall, and there is no reason the Patriots should be struggling. The ONLY weakness the Patriots have is their secondary - and most teams lack the talent to exploit it.

2 very valid points Moose Of Woe [bolded text] I can't argue with either point. Very well stated! I must say.You are very good at articulating your point of view.

[Moose Of Woe]

2 very valid points Moose Of Woe [bolded text] I can't argue with either point. Very well stated! I must say.You are very good at articulating your point of view.

I enjoy the discussion ol' chum!

As I mentioned earlier or maybe in another topic, I expect Brady will bounce back just fine in a complete trouncing of the Jets. I think it will be more of what we're used to seeing - Patriots going over 40 points, Sanchez sucking, and Rex Ryan's tears.

In no way can I picture the Jets getting past the Pats' line fairly consistently and, even if they do, I sure as heck don't see SanchBOW taking advantage of it. Considering nobody knows who the actual QB for the Jets is, that speaks volumes about their inability to exploit the Pats' secondary. The Jets did it to us, but who DOESN'T have a career day against us? (Aside from Rodgers of all people.)

That being said, it's the NFL. Anything can happen...division game yadda yadda...so who knows? From my view this one has ugly written all over it.

[bayone]

On a slightly different note, I often wonder how many Championships Peyton would have if he switched teams with the NY Giants and Eli went to Indianapolis...Can you imagine what #18 could do with the Giants o-line and that fantastic pass rush that would get the ball back multiple times for Peyton. Jesus, if #18 had the G-Men's line in his prime...WOW! Maybe 3 SB Rings who knows.

I know speculation is usually counterproductive and I do love INDY, but I must confess pondering how things might have been different with a Manning team switch occasionally. But, then again Tom Moore was vital to molding #18's core offensive philosophies too and I cannot discount that vital fact either.

I am up & got note of your quote but still sick ,& not allowed to see mom , see last comment i made in

http://forums.colts....120#entry312267

& what i left out was that i was so sick I couldnt even be there at hospital wheen mom was transferred back to assisted living as i got sick from her I could of given it back to her if near her

HOWEVER

if u r pondering things to me its obvious Peyton with a better D like Giants would have easily one more Sb's and maybe MVP's

However one must realize that for that to happen u simply cant transpose Teams

Unlike Eli, by going 13-3 in second season and always good thereafter we never got the great draft choices that Elis slow start allowed and even when won and then fell down got maniac Piere Paul as defender with about pick # 14 for last years SB run, same was true for Steelers win a SB, dont make playoffs , reload with good picks and win SB again

Peyton & all around team were a victim of continued success

There is only BB who can consistently play draft right and keep winning

-------------------------

Sorry I really have little time to discuss things ongoing, I must do what i have to on computer and get back to bed, I am logged in so may show me as here but not, sure u understand

[GoPats]

For an all time great, I expect someone of Brady's caliber to respond better than he does. Brady doesn't need to be a scrambler, he just needs to throw the ball away, check it down, or go for that tough throw instead of eating a sack. Taking a sack. Well no matter how I word that it comes out wrong but you know what I mean. Aside from Welker/Branch his TE's and Lloyd are pretty tall. There is no reason he shouldn't be able to get it to spots only those guys can get it. (Which he can, when he has plenty of time...but we're talking about when he's hurried)

And that's exactly why he holds on to the ball too long. He IS simply waiting for Welker, Gronk, or another weapon to break free so he can hit a wide open target for an easy pitch and catch as opposed to making the tougher throw or throwing the ball away. If nobody busts wide open he often gets sacked and, from time to time, he even throws intentional grounding.

All due respect Moose, but I think you're way off on this. One of the things that seems "off" about Brady in 2012 is his "internal clock." I don't know why that is, but prior to this season, he was as good as anyone at knowing when to get rid of the ball. A quarterback who doesn't see the field and read defenses well will end up a sitting duck in the pocket, but a handful of games aside, Brady's decision-making is impeccable and probably as good as any QB who has played the game.

I know you said you're having difficulty articulating some opinions, but a lot of times Brady is holding the ball because the Patriots run a TON of middle-of-the-field crossing routes with Welker, Hernandez, and Gronkowski. Most teams don't try to play man coverage on the Patriots because they will exploit the best mismatch on every single play. (Got a LB on Gronk? Send him out on a deep corner or post route and let the big guy outrun him.) When you're throwing into zone coverage, you often have to wait for that window to open up. On a crossing route that can take a few seconds.

I've never, ever heard anyone say Brady holds the ball too long (consistently, anyway). In fact, I think that's one of the things that makes him good.

Brady's line, by the same token, is what it is independent of QB. Decent-good pass blocking and the jury is still out on run blocking.

Same here, I have to disagree strongly. Best fact to support my case is this.

In 2007, Matt Light, Dan Koppen, and Logan Mankins all made the Pro Bowl. That was Brady's 50-TD season.

He was sacked 21 times on the year.

In 2008, Brady's missed season, Cassel played behind the same offensive line. Cassel is a MUCH more mobile QB than Brady (he ran for 270 yards that season alone... Brady's career high for one season is 110 yards).

He was sacked 47 times playing behind the same five guys.

The Patriots do an outstanding job of coaching up their offensive linemen, installing schemes, installing communication methods, etc. Their line coach, Dante Scarnecchia, has been in New England every year except one (1989, when he spent one season in Indy) and has worked under something like six different head coaches. You don't see a line "drop off" like that... one year there's 21 sacks, the next year it better than doubles to 47. Even objectively speaking, you have to chalk some of that up to QB play, ability to make decisions quickly, and knowing when to unload the football.

Same thing happened, I'm sure, with the Colts. How many times was Manning sacked in 2010? And how many sacks did Indy QBs take last year? It probably doubled, right?

[bayone]

Regarding Manning's line, he didn't dress that up at all. It WAS very good in his earlier years regardless of Peyton. (2000-2005ish) 1998-1999 were ok. In 2006 it started to get a little shaky. Then, after the SB, Glenn retired. 2007 saw significant steps backward in both pass and run blocking. Anyone who didn't see it was blind or simply didn't want to admit it.

From 2008 onward Manning was more or less running for his life on nearly every snap. No pass protection, no run blocking. You're talking 2-3 seconds to get rid of it or get KILLED. It got worse in 2009. It somehow got even WORSE in 2010.

Enter/Exit Collins, Painter, Luck. The only difference was Manning made quick reads/decisions and got rid of the football with one of the fastest releases in the NFL. On top of being accurate and having a great timing regimen with his receiver corps. At this point, the corps was frequently banged up aside from Wayne. No more Marvin for those last few years, either.

Back to the line, Manning didn't make it look better. It was what it was. IT SUCKED. The D SUCKED in spite of having to play to "hold on" most of the time. Manning and the O helped the D, but didn't make it look better. Outside the 2006 playoff runs and brief flashes of brilliance one game at a time it was never, ever, decent. Special teams? That's a good one. They sucked more than the line and D. Somehow. (Return/coverage wise...kickers were always good aside from Vanderjagt in the playoffs)

In Denver, Manning actually has a decent O-line. In fact it's pretty good pass protection wise. Run blocking leaves a bit to be desired, but it's better than what he had in Indy for 4-5 seasons. Completely independent of Manning, Denver has a good pass blocking O-line.

Brady's line, by the same token, is what it is independent of QB. Decent-good pass blocking and the jury is still out on run blocking.

In DenVer OL I agree on protection & ruin blocking as u note

In some of those years u note that peyton had a good line and didnt t dress that up at all. It WAS very good in his earlier years regardless of Peyton. (2000-2005ish) thats true for alot of it but noty all as 1 player admits

I disagree in part due to this statement from 1 said O Linemen, though i forgot what years he played for indy & Yes Tariks Glenn's suprised departure was a killer

Rick Demulling

He was drafted in the seventh round, 20th pick, of 2001, became a full time starter during the 2002-2004 seasons, before signing for with free agent status with lions in 05, After 2 seasons as a Lions, he was released or was free agent again , I forget & he re-signed with the Colts during spring 2007 offseason He was released prior to the start of the 2007 season by the Colts,

has been quoted in an interview as basically saying when he became a free agent he had many offers and went to lions, After a time they realized he really wasnt that good and was realeased , he found his way back to colts and was released

He said Lions never realized he wasnt that good but Peyton just made entire Oline look better and thus Lions though he was a quality free agent when wasnt -- his years covers some of the Tarik genn years and years u speak of as being a good line regardless of peyton, thoughi do admit thjose years Peytons overall line was much better esp with tarik glenn

I may be back later if u respond, if i dont answer u i am resting sorry,

I do like & respect your posts & opinions and basically agree with u my friend on most things but not all, if we all agreed on everything then the forum wouldnt have things to discuss in a healthy discourse

However I have no time to read eveything these days

[bayone]

In 2007, Matt Light, Dan Koppen, and Logan Mankins all made the Pro Bowl.

I've never, ever heard anyone say Brady holds the ball too long (consistently, anyway). In fact, I think that's one of the things that makes him good.

The Patriots do an outstanding job of coaching up their offensive linemen, installing schemes, installing communication methods, etc.

Now thats a line

& I agree, never heard any so called expert say that about brady (consistently, anyway)

last

& yes to that last comment, great coaching

[Truckin Sanders]

He lost an elite defense and one of the most clutch kickers ever to play.

[GoColts8818]

To answer the threads title question:

Yeah wouldn't bet on it...

[Moose Of Woe]

In 2008, Brady's missed season, Cassel played behind the same offensive line. Cassel is a MUCH more mobile QB than Brady (he ran for 270 yards that season alone... Brady's career high for one season is 110 yards).

He was sacked 47 times playing behind the same five guys.

Same thing happened, I'm sure, with the Colts. How many times was Manning sacked in 2010? And how many sacks did Indy QBs take last year? It probably doubled, right?

Let's not kid ourselves. This is MATT CASSEL we're talking about. Unlike Brady, NOBODY respected Cassel's ability to throw so teams brought it to him. Actually, teams STILL don't respect his ability to throw. He's literally the worst ranked QB in the league.

The god awful Cassel still led the Patriots to 11-5. As a KC starter, Cassel has a losing record. People were claiming how the Patriots "had a better backup QB" than, say, Painter but I have to disagree. I think the Patriots just had a great team.

Cassel didn't make the line look bad when he got sacked. Cassel made CASSEL look bad. The line, as you said, was the same one Brady had. The only difference is Cassel is 1/10th the QB Brady is.

Look at Painter or even moreso Collins. I predicted Collins wouldn't last past Pittsburgh behind our line the second the Colts brought him in. Sure enough, he got creamed. Manning was able to survive behind the line while taking few sacks, but those two? Yeah. It was ugly. Manning did not make our line look better, he was just good IN SPITE OF one of the worst pass blocking lines in football.

Regarding Brady's internal clock - I think that's the whole problem. He's used to having a lot more time than he does. Aside from his early years, Brady has never had to get rid of the ball quickly on a consistent basis throughout most football games. Exceptions are the Giants Superbowls - especially the first one. The Ravens did in the playoffs a few years back, etc. (Although NOTHING went the Pats' way that night in any phase of the game)

How many times did a team get through to him consistently over the past several seasons? Not many. He doesn't really have to gamble/make quick decisions to win games. In situations he does, when teams beat the line, the end result is the Patriots tend to lose.

I think Brady has grown complacent behind his line. He needs to turn his internal clock down from eight seconds to about five and make quicker decisions. What was NOT holding on to the ball "too long" in the past now IS. With those lines he had, it was rare that he COULD hold on too long given how much time he had. Cassel found ways to do it but, again, that's Cassel. Cassel is NOT Tom Brady.

He'll still get away just fine against, say, the Jets...but I think he'll struggle against the Texans, Falcons, Niners, Seahawks, any one who opts to bring it past his line. Any time you hear "Brady...with time..." "Brady...with time" you KNOW it will be a completion.

And against most teams, that's what he gets. Maybe not as much as he used to, but plenty that he can make a quick read and throw the ball either away or to a giant TE or the best slot receiver in the NFL. Not always the case, Brady usually has better options aside from getting sacked if he'd be willing to make the throw. For a QB of his ability, I expect him to be able to do it, that's all.

[Moose Of Woe]

PS: I don't think Brady has "lost" anything. He just needs to adjust at going from the best pass blocking a QB can have to ok-good pass blocking. For a QB of his ability/credentials, it should not be as difficult as it seems to be. It's not like he has Green Bay or Indy's O-line now.

[-JJ-]

Regarding Brady's internal clock - I think that's the whole problem. He's used to having a lot more time than he does. Aside from his early years, Brady has never had to get rid of the ball quickly on a consistent basis throughout most football games. Exceptions are the Giants Superbowls - especially the first one. The Ravens did in the playoffs a few years back, etc. (Although NOTHING went the Pats' way that night in any phase of the game)

How many times did a team get through to him consistently over the past several seasons? Not many. He doesn't really have to gamble/make quick decisions to win games. In situations he does, when teams beat the line, the end result is the Patriots tend to lose.

I think Brady has grown complacent behind his line. He needs to turn his internal clock down from eight seconds to about five and make quicker decisions. What was NOT holding on to the ball "too long" in the past now IS. With those lines he had, it was rare that he COULD hold on too long given how much time he had. Cassel found ways to do it but, again, that's Cassel. Cassel is NOT Tom Brady.

He'll still get away just fine against, say, the Jets...but I think he'll struggle against the Texans, Falcons, Niners, Seahawks, any one who opts to bring it past his line. Any time you hear "Brady...with time..." "Brady...with time" you KNOW it will be a completion.

And against most teams, that's what he gets. Maybe not as much as he used to, but plenty that he can make a quick read and throw the ball either away or to a giant TE or the best slot receiver in the NFL. Not always the case, Brady usually has better options aside from getting sacked if he'd be willing to make the throw. For a QB of his ability, I expect him to be able to do it, that's all.

I don't I buy that all that. If anything his internal clock would just be smarter from all the experience. Its not like he had 8 seconds in 04 and now its 4-5.

I don't count when watching games but I see him with a lot of time with good blocking, not a lot of time where he reads the blitz and gets rid of it..and evades the rush not only with just a sidestep but some running steps and ducking which he does a lot.

The only sacks are the blindside (all QBs have) or a rush with missed blocks where the internal clock is not even a factor as wouldn't be for any QB in that situation.

I don't buy the complacency on the internel clock.

[Yehoodi]

here is a cute video on this subject . . .

http://www.patsfans.com/ian/blog/2012/10/18/espns-michael-smith-brady-is-not-clutch/

[Moose Of Woe]

here is a cute video on this subject . . .

http://www.patsfans....-is-not-clutch/

I'll take consistency over clutch any day. Brady is consistent enough to be among the top echelon of QBs every season. It takes a team to be "clutch" imo when it comes to closing out games. Any one player can screw it up be it a fumble, int, missed block, drop, etc.

A single player being "clutch", to me, is only extremely significant for kickers when the game comes down to one kick.

[buffalo34]

Came back for a win? This year in Buffalo.

People really do have short term memories in the NFL.

Eh, for game-winning drive wise, I'd say last year's game against Dallas.

[smittywerb]

No, he lost his defense.

[ViriLudant]

There was still a full 4th quarter, and I believe they were only down 10 at half.

I'm talking a come back. 4min left in the game NEEDING a score of some kind....if I remember both the Balt and Sea games he only needed a first down, and still couldn't get them.

I'm not trying to knock the guy. He's arguably the greatest QB of all time. But he made his name on not only being a great QB but incredibly clutch as well. I just can't recall a truly clutch moment since the 16-0 SB. Maybe Pats or Yehiodi can help me out.

How about now?

Down by 3 with less than two minutes, moves the team down the field quickly to get a FG.

Then leads his team for a game-winning FG in OT.

[IndyTrav]

How about now?

Down by 3 with less than two minutes, moves the team down the field quickly to get a FG.

Then leads his team for a game-winning FG in OT.

Lol. As I was watching the game I kept thinking of this thread!

Big game and win for the Pats at home. I really thought they were going to lose. Then Hill dropped that 1st down. Then McCourty dropped the KO, and I went back to thinking they'd lose. The last 8min of that game was pretty intense.

Although I do think the Jets shot themselves in the foot.

Brady made some accurate passes before going into the OT. But I actually came away more impressed with Gronk/Woodhead. 1:37. Short pass Gronk 15yd Short Pass Gronk 12yd. Short pass Woodhead 20yds. So Brady threw the ball about 10yds in the air and gained 47. I just kept screamin at the TV to leave a MLB in zone right in the middle of the field.

This is just my thought, I'm no Pats fan, but I see Woodhead and he just screams of Kevin Faulk. When I see him on the field, I just know he's going to do something crucial and vital to the Pats success.

[hawkeyes]

Let's not kid ourselves. This is MATT CASSEL we're talking about. Unlike Brady, NOBODY respected Cassel's ability to throw so teams brought it to him. Actually, teams STILL don't respect his ability to throw. He's literally the worst ranked QB in the league.

And the team surrounding him is one of the best in the NFL, not to mention the system they run there in KC - right?

LOL! If Cassel had protection and receivers who were capable and wanted to catch the ball he wouldn't be sitting at the bottom.

[Moose Of Woe]

And the team surrounding him is one of the best in the NFL, not to mention the system they run there in KC - right?

LOL! If Cassel had protection and receivers who were capable and wanted to catch the ball he wouldn't be sitting at the bottom.

Poor pass protection puts the QB in situations were they're forced to make quick decisions more frequently. Poor pass protection doesn't excuse poor decision making and throws on the part of the QB.

Receivers dropping the football is not the QB's fault, but throwing god awful passes is.

A bad QB on a good/great team can go a long way. Look at Cassel/Patriots and Grossman/Bears. In both cases, all the QB had to do was not LOSE the game while the team did the lion's share of the work. Neither were good QB's.

Cassel was bad on a great team, and he's bad on a bad team. The only difference now is he doesn't have a team to bail him out of the fire when he screws up.

Looks like it's Brady Quinn time in KC. He can't do any worse.

[Moose Of Woe]

Poor pass protection puts the QB in situations where they're forced to make quick decisions more frequently. Poor pass protection doesn't excuse poor decision making and throws on the part of the QB.

He might not be at the bottom of the league on a mediocre team, but he'd still be pretty poor. Maybe even Sanchez level awful.

[southwest1]

here is a cute video on this subject . . .

http://www.patsfans....-is-not-clutch/

Videos like this one always crack me up Yehoodi. How bout special teams play, a suffocating defense, or I don't know this little thing called a fumble or turnover? Geez, why does Brady get blamed for things he has no control over? #12 can't win every game by himself. Nice post buddy! Football is more than just numbers; it's heart, determination, and willpower too. 3 things numbers can never measure effectively IMO.

[southwest1]

How about now?

Down by 3 with less than two minutes, moves the team down the field quickly to get a FG.

Then leads his team for a game-winning FG in OT.

Tom Brady is C-L-U-T-C-H. His Foxboro magic looks spectacular to me anyway. Gotta give your NE field general props VL.