Jim Caldwell, Second Lightning Rod Besides Painter

[braveheartcolt]

With all due respect - please don't lump me in with your generalizations. In fact we all don't know what a "reputable" coach would do with this team. Saying that you do know is complete foolishness. That is almost as foolish as your contention that resting players in 2009 helped lose the Super Bowl, completely discounting the fact that they won 2 freaking playoff games in between.

Look, I am not certain that Caldwell is the rigth man for the Colts job. My point is, and always has been, that his record as coach is pretty freaking good and that has to count for something. His teams always play hard, they never panic, and are never out of games. YOu contend that is solely on Manning but I just refuse to believe that Caldwell did not play some role in not only his team's success since he has been HC, but also what he did with Manning as a QB coach.

Come on now Skinnz, don't take me so literally.......but I see an ounce of doubt creep in now.....just an ounce.....

[dynasty13]

He was OK, but not my cup of tea. Better than Caldwell though. Without playing up to your New England pride, I'd suggest the Colts would have been the Dynasty of the 2000's, not the Patriots, if we had BB as our coach from 1998.....and no, I can't prove that.

Right. All speculation.

My point was more that many Colts fans during Dungys tenure made the case that he was one of the best in the league...and his 'stats' backed that up. Those same fans now dont like Caldwell...even though his 'stats' should hold up fine. You made mention that a reputable coach would take the Colts further, and many share that sentiment...but when you think about it...Dungy 'didnt take the Colts further' either until his 5th year with the team. And when you really think about it...in the last 15 years only 3 teams have won more than one Superbowl: Denver, New England, Pittsburgh. Plenty of other teams have had good coaches, and plenty of other teams have won one Superbowl. Its not easy to win consistently. The jury is out on Caldwell, sure...but some of the reasons some fans 'hate' him are pretty contradictory to the reasons they seem to like other coaches.

[FireJimCaldwell]

That entire premise is based on assumptions that you cannot possibly know to be true. If just fits your argument so run with it.

Actually I do know it to be true.

Peyton Manning on the Colts bringing in Kerry Collins:

http://www.1070thefan.com/news/Story.aspx?ID=1529825

“I’ve known Kerry (Collins) for quite some time, and let me just say this. It’s a tough question for me to answer, because Curtis Painter is one of my best friends on the team. I have known Kerry for a long time, and I’m all about helping the team be a better football team. Our goal, at this point, is to start out with a (win), and I want to do whatever I can to make that happen. My goal is certainly to be out there playing. But when I’m not doing my rehab or trying to get myself better, ready to play, I’m doing what I can to help Curtis and to help Kerry, and I think that’s been a pretty common goal amongst all our team. When a guy is injured he’s helping whoever his backup is to help play. So I will do what I can to help both those guys, and at the same time try to get ready to play myself.”

There have been plenty of other comments from both Sorgi, Painter, coaches, other QB's players from other positions, such as last year when White/Tammee had to replace Collie/Clark of Manning working overtime in trying to help get the younger guys up to speed, so it has nothing to do with an assumption or fitting my point of view.

[braveheartcolt]

Right. All speculation.

My point was more that many Colts fans during Dungys tenure made the case that he was one of the best in the league...and his 'stats' backed that up. Those same fans now dont like Caldwell...even though his 'stats' should hold up fine. You made mention that a reputable coach would take the Colts further, and many share that sentiment...but when you think about it...Dungy 'didnt take the Colts further' either until his 5th year with the team. And when you really think about it...in the last 15 years only 3 teams have won more than one Superbowl: Denver, New England, Pittsburgh. Plenty of other teams have had good coaches, and plenty of other teams have won one Superbowl. Its not easy to win consistently. The jury is out on Caldwell, sure...but some of the reasons some fans 'hate' him are pretty contradictory to the reasons they seem to like other coaches.

Yes. And arguably (probably factually), the best coach / QB combo was BB/TB. And they won the most......

[jskinnz]

Actually I do know it to be true.

There have been plenty of other comments from both Sorgi, Painter, coaches, other QB's players from other positions, such as last year when White/Tammee had to replace Collie/Clark of Manning working overtime in trying to help get the younger guys up to speed, so it has nothing to do with an assumption or fitting my point of view.

Show me where he said that he works with Painter more than Caldwell, which was what you indicated.

[FireJimCaldwell]

Show me where he said that he works with Painter more than Caldwell, which was what you indicated.

Caldwell is the Head coach. Painter wasn't on the roster when Caldwell was the quarterback coach. Being able to deduce that shouldn't be extremely hard. If anyone outside of Manning & the other quarterbacks is spending more time with Painter, it would be Ron Turner, the quarterback coach. So knowing how Manning has traveled to help/tutor/practice with Gonzalez when he was @ Ohio State, and I'm fairly certain i remember similar stories about him and Collie, I'm comfortable saying that Manning has put in more time over the past 3 years with Painter than Caldwell has.

Oh and my quote was "I would say Manning has worked with Painter more than Caldwell has." I didn't say Peyton said it. Again, I'm comfortable in making that statement. If you wish to ignore it or disagree with it, then so be it.

[GoColts8818]

Right. All speculation.

My point was more that many Colts fans during Dungys tenure made the case that he was one of the best in the league...and his 'stats' backed that up. Those same fans now dont like Caldwell...even though his 'stats' should hold up fine. You made mention that a reputable coach would take the Colts further, and many share that sentiment...but when you think about it...Dungy 'didnt take the Colts further' either until his 5th year with the team. And when you really think about it...in the last 15 years only 3 teams have won more than one Superbowl: Denver, New England, Pittsburgh. Plenty of other teams have had good coaches, and plenty of other teams have won one Superbowl. Its not easy to win consistently. The jury is out on Caldwell, sure...but some of the reasons some fans 'hate' him are pretty contradictory to the reasons they seem to like other coaches.

Just to be fair, we hadn't won a playoff game with Manning when Dungy got here so depending on what you mean by further Dungy did that in his second year here when he took us to the AFC Title game. I don't really disagree with much if any of what you are saying here either. Just wanted to point out if you wanted to compare Dungy's Colts to Mora's Colts Dungy did take us further in just his second year here.

Also count me as one of the few who uses Caldwell's "stats" to justify why I think he's doing a pretty good job.

[dynasty13]

Just to be fair, we hadn't won a playoff game with Manning when Dungy got here so depending on what you mean by further Dungy did that in his second year here when he took us to the AFC Title game. I don't really disagree with much if any of what you are saying here either. Just wanted to point out if you wanted to compare Dungy's Colts to Mora's Colts Dungy did take us further in just his second year here.

Also count me as one of the few who uses Caldwell's "stats" to justify why I think he's doing a pretty good job.

I know...I was just using the terminology that the poster I was responding to did. I was assuming he meant further as in 'Superbowl'...

[Superman]

I know...I was just using the terminology that the poster I was responding to did. I was assuming he meant further as in 'Superbowl'...

Taking it a step further, we went one and done two years in a row before Dungy left. Then Caldwell takes over and we go 14-0 and make it to the Super Bowl.

I could understand this rabid criticism of him if he took over a Super Bowl that started steadily declining (like Pete Carroll and the Pats), but that's not what happened. In fact, just the opposite.

[dynasty13]

Taking it a step further, we went one and done two years in a row before Dungy left. Then Caldwell takes over and we go 14-0 and make it to the Super Bowl.I could understand this rabid criticism of him if he took over a Super Bowl that started steadily declining (like Pete Carroll and the Pats), but that's not what happened. In fact, just the opposite.

But to play the other side as well (because its easy to make a case for either side)...its an eerily similar circumstance to when Dungy left Tampa. Many Colts fans 'credit' Dungy for that 2002 Superbowl, saying it was 'his team' and Gruden just stepped in and won with it. I completely understand those who defend Caldwell...but some of those same fans who were quick to discredit Gruden's accolades are very quick to defend Caldwell's.

[Superman]

But to play the other side as well (because its easy to make a case for either side)...its an eerily similar circumstance to when Dungy left Tampa. Many Colts fans 'credit' Dungy for that 2002 Superbowl, saying it was 'his team' and Gruden just stepped in and won with it. I completely understand those who defend Caldwell...but some of those same fans who were quick to discredit Gruden's accolades are very quick to defend Caldwell's.

Gruden got plenty of love, and had a pretty long leash as he kind of ran the Bucs into the ground over the course of 6 six years. That's my beef with him. I think he deserves credit for his Super Bowl win. Sapp described it nicely by saying that Dungy built the house, and Gruden came in and decorated it. He definitely deserves credit. I think he lost goodwill as the years went on and his team deteriorated.

[dynasty13]

Gruden got plenty of love, and had a pretty long leash as he kind of ran the Bucs into the ground over the course of 6 six years. That's my beef with him. I think he deserves credit for his Super Bowl win. Sapp described it nicely by saying that Dungy built the house, and Gruden came in and decorated it. He definitely deserves credit. I think he lost goodwill as the years went on and his team deteriorated.

Agreed. As the years went on, it became easy to look back and see how things ended up. But I remember people here, back when the discussion wasnt only about Brady vs Manning but also Dungy vs Belichick, many made the case about how the Bucs Superbowl belonged to Dungy because it was his team. Im just looking at Caldwells first year and his trip to the Superbowl, and Im wondering if many of his defenders still feel the same way about that being 'Dungys team'. As I said earlier...I think the verdict is still out on Caldwell. I dont like him, I dont not like him. I just cant tell. You cant argue with the success he had in 2009, and in 2010 there were a lot of injuries...but the next few years will be telling.

[Rich Cannon]

Now Caldwell gets all the kudos for Manning's brilliance. It's normally Polian. Whilst I fully respect Coffee / JSkinnz / Chad etc., this is all smoke and mirrors. We ALL know a reputible coach would take the Colts further. Hiding behind Manning's right arm to excuse Caldwell's record is a load of baloney. ANd I know you know it, but you are just not admitting it, because you think being loyal to the management is the right thing to do. It's not. It's foolish.

Yes, inheriting Peyton Manning’s right arm is a great situation for any rookie coach and helped Caldwell’s cause and record. But hiring a reputable coach doesn’t necessarily mean automatic success. Hiring a coach and bringing in his type of players that fits his scheme gives him the best chance of winning. And that is a process that can take years. The colts simply hired someone who had already been on staff and waiting to take over, who shared similar ideas and coaching styles as Tony Dungy. Hiring a coach that fit the current scheme the team already believes in is what the Colts did. A Head Coach is responsible for film room meetings and getting all 53 players ready for Sunday, not Peyton Manning. A coach is responsible for practice and what to work on, not Peyton Manning. Having Peyton Manning be the leader that he is and work ethic helps the cause but he isnt a coach, hes a player. Does Jim Caldwell need to work on game management absolutely, but to say he’s not contributed to the team’s success as others have stated on this board is unreasonable. I personally am not a huge Caldwell fan but do give him credit for dealing with the team and coaching his way to a plus 500 win percentage in his first few years of coaching.

[Superman]

Agreed. As the years went on, it became easy to look back and see how things ended up. But I remember people here, back when the discussion wasnt only about Brady vs Manning but also Dungy vs Belichick, many made the case about how the Bucs Superbowl belonged to Dungy because it was his team. Im just looking at Caldwells first year and his trip to the Superbowl, and Im wondering if many of his defenders still feel the same way about that being 'Dungys team'. As I said earlier...I think the verdict is still out on Caldwell. I dont like him, I dont not like him. I just cant tell. You cant argue with the success he had in 2009, and in 2010 there were a lot of injuries...but the next few years will be telling.

Very true. What we haven't had so far is a Pete Carroll/Norv Turner type situation, which is even better than what most Caldwell detractors would have you believe. I defend Caldwell, not because I think he's a great coach, but because the rhetoric is so ridiculous. A guy like FireJimmy at least shows some reasonableness, even though his position is clear. Others pretend that because of Manning the team could run itself without a head coach, and all we need is someone to not get in the way. Needless to say, I think that's absurd. As great as Manning is, he isn't a coach, he isn't a coordinator, and he needs help.

So I might come across as a pro-Caldwell fan, but I'm really not. I'm undecided on him. I'm about 65/35 in his favor, but he's just getting started. His book hasn't been written yet; we're barely a chapter or so in.

[Rich Cannon]

Very true. What we haven't had so far is a Pete Carroll/Norv Turner type situation, which is even better than what most Caldwell detractors would have you believe. I defend Caldwell, not because I think he's a great coach, but because the rhetoric is so ridiculous. A guy like FireJimmy at least shows some reasonableness, even though his position is clear. Others pretend that because of Manning the team could run itself without a head coach, and all we need is someone to not get in the way. Needless to say, I think that's absurd. As great as Manning is, he isn't a coach, he isn't a coordinator, and he needs help.

So I might come across as a pro-Caldwell fan, but I'm really not. I'm undecided on him. I'm about 65/35 in his favor, but he's just getting started. His book hasn't been written yet; we're barely a chapter or so in.

Very good call.

[Coffeedrinker]

They weren't identical but they were pretty close.

No they were not even close. And the differences is why the Jags call was correct and the Jets call was wrong, IMO.

This is the big one.

Jags game - Game was tied, Colts scored on their last two drives. You do not want the game to go into OT where the outcome is somewhat dependent on a coin toss (luck)and Jax was returning the ball well on the last two kick-offs.

Jets game - Colts were winning - It's up to the other team to manage the clock.

Jags game - Colts called the timeout on Jags 31 yard line. If the Colts get the stop and force a punt they get the ball around the 30-40 yard line. This goes back to getting the ball back for the O.

Jets game - Colts called a timeout when the jets were already in scoring range - If the Colts got the stop the Jets would still have time and a TO(I believe) to try the FG.

Jags game - Played in Jax

Jets game - Played at LOS - Not a huge thing but a 50+ yard FG in the dome is more likely than a 59 yarder outside.

Jags game - There was still some time on the clock. If Jax wanted to play for the win (which obviously they did) that meant throwing the ball. The Colts forced and incomplete pass and Hayden nearly got an INT. If that had happened the Colts would have been in position to win

Jets game - There was not much time on the clock - There was time for the Jets to run one play and kick the FG.

Those are all differences and you have to factor in all of them when making the decision.

[Superman]

I didn't really like either timeout, but the Jets timeout was obviously the most egregious. The Jags timeout actually almost worked out, had Hayden been able to hold on to that near interception. People call Caldwell passive, but that was an aggressive decision. Force them to beat us, or get the ball back and beat them. I see the merits, but I don't think I would have called that timeout there. In either case, we went out and lost the game with onfield mistakes, regardless of questionable timeout calls.

[FireJimCaldwell]

No they were not even close. And the differences is why the Jags call was correct and the Jets call was wrong, IMO.

This is the big one.

Jags game - Game was tied, Colts scored on their last two drives. You do not want the game to go into OT where the outcome is somewhat dependent on a coin toss (luck)and Jax was returning the ball well on the last two kick-offs.

Jets game - Colts were winning - It's up to the other team to manage the clock.

I guess my main objection is the timeout concerning the D&D of 2nd & 2. If the 1st down play had resulted in a gain of 2 yards or a stuff, then I can see the logic behind a time out. When it's 2nd & 2, the odds are against a stop. That doesn't mean that it would be impossible, but when they average 5.0 YPC the odds of stopping it aren't in our favor. IMO we should have forced Jacksonville to call at time out(their last) and then if, a pretty big if, if we stop them, then it's 3rd & 1 at best, they are out of time outs, and we can use another one to set up hopefully stoping a key 3rd down. Jacksonville also moved the ball fairly easily on their previous possession. Considering Scobee 50+% beyond 50yds out doors has had a knack for beating us in the end is something else to consider.

Jags game - Colts called the timeout on Jags 31 yard line. If the Colts get the stop and force a punt they get the ball around the 30-40 yard line. This goes back to getting the ball back for the O.

Jets game - Colts called a timeout when the jets were already in scoring range - If the Colts got the stop the Jets would still have time and a TO(I believe) to try the FG.

Jags game - Played in Jax

Jets game - Played at LOS - Not a huge thing but a 50+ yard FG in the dome is more likely than a 59 yarder outside.

Jags game - There was still some time on the clock. If Jax wanted to play for the win (which obviously they did) that meant throwing the ball. The Colts forced and incomplete pass and Hayden nearly got an INT. If that had happened the Colts would have been in position to win

Jets game - There was not much time on the clock - There was time for the Jets to run one play and kick the FG.

Those are all differences and you have to factor in all of them when making the decision.

I'm not so sure Del Rio and company were playing for the win until the time out was called. They weren't hurrying up in hopes of getting a quick hitting run play off to pick up the first down. Again, I believe we would have been better off in both instances by not giving the opponent traditional time to come up with a better plan of attack.

Yeah we almost picked the ball off, but it didn't happen. Just like we didn't stop them from getting in position to hit a field goal. Hindsight is a beautiful thing unless you are looking at it from the wrong side, which we are in both cases. A lot of things in football is risk vs. reward, and in both cases it seemed like the opponent was content with taking things slow, Jacksonville in letting the clock tick down, and New York with attempting a much longer field goal, but the time outs allowed them to collect their thoughts and come up with plays that put them in a position to and win the ball games.

To me in the Jacksonville game. 2nd & 8 or so, call the timeout... They could still convert, and move down the field, but their odds of converting the 1st down are much greater at 2nd & 2 than they would have been with a better first down play and a 2nd & long play where they might feel the urgency to put the ball in the air.

I'll agree that the New York time out was much worse, partially because more was riding on the game, but in situation vs. situation it was much worse, but the Jacksonville scenario was still a mistake in my opinion.

[Coffeedrinker]

I'll agree that the New York time out was much worse, partially because more was riding on the game, but in situation vs. situation it was much worse, but the Jacksonville scenario was still a mistake in my opinion.

I see what you are saying and I agree the TO in the Jags game would have been even better had it been 2nd and 8 rather than 2nd 2. Even with that it still took a near miracle kick from Scobee to win. I'd take my chances on a 59 yarder missing just about every time, which is another reason the Jets TO makes no sense to me

Overall, I look at it this way.

The Jags TO put the Colts in a position to win (which is all a coach can do during the game) the players just didn't execute.

The Jets TO helped put the Jets in a position to win. Even if Edwards doesn't make that catch the Jets still have time to kick the FG where without that timeout things would have been more rushed and therefore even more difficult.

[braveheartcolt]

Yes, inheriting Peyton Manning’s right arm is a great situation for any rookie coach and helped Caldwell’s cause and record. But hiring a reputable coach doesn’t necessarily mean automatic success. Hiring a coach and bringing in his type of players that fits his scheme gives him the best chance of winning. And that is a process that can take years. The colts simply hired someone who had already been on staff and waiting to take over, who shared similar ideas and coaching styles as Tony Dungy. Hiring a coach that fit the current scheme the team already believes in is what the Colts did. A Head Coach is responsible for film room meetings and getting all 53 players ready for Sunday, not Peyton Manning. A coach is responsible for practice and what to work on, not Peyton Manning. Having Peyton Manning be the leader that he is and work ethic helps the cause but he isnt a coach, hes a player. Does Jim Caldwell need to work on game management absolutely, but to say he’s not contributed to the team’s success as others have stated on this board is unreasonable. I personally am not a huge Caldwell fan but do give him credit for dealing with the team and coaching his way to a plus 500 win percentage in his first few years of coaching.

I never said Caldwell hasn't contributed. I was just countering the 'facts' (Win-Loss) that are being used to promote his excellence, when we know the real reason.

[FireJimCaldwell]

I see what you are saying and I agree the TO in the Jags game would have been even better had it been 2nd and 8 rather than 2nd 2. Even with that it still took a near miracle kick from Scobee to win. I'd take my chances on a 59 yarder missing just about every time, which is another reason the Jets TO makes no sense to me

Overall, I look at it this way.

The Jags TO put the Colts in a position to win (which is all a coach can do during the game) the players just didn't execute.

The Jets TO helped put the Jets in a position to win. Even if Edwards doesn't make that catch the Jets still have time to kick the FG where without that timeout things would have been more rushed and therefore even more difficult.

If Jacksonville had got up from the pile in a fit or a rage to get back to the LOS, then I could buy that they were playing to win. Obviously they could have converted the 2nd & 2, and clocked it and had less time than they ended up with, which I feel the time out based on the D&D was still a mistake. It's true that if we would have executed on that final drive we would have had a shot of our own to win, but I think both time outs put the opponents in much better chances to win, and I think each increased the opponents chance to win more than it did our own, but the Jets Time out was much much worse than the one vs. the Jags with all things considered.

[Coffeedrinker]

I never said Caldwell hasn't contributed. I was just countering the 'facts' (Win-Loss) that are being used to promote his excellence, when we know the real reason.

He's a big part of the "real" reason.

Dungy was a great coach, he never took Manning and the Colts to 14-0.

There would have been very few coaches that would have still got Manning and the Colts to the playoffs last year with all the injuries.

[Rich Cannon]

I never said Caldwell hasn't contributed. I was just countering the 'facts' (Win-Loss) that are being used to promote his excellence, when we know the real reason.

I respect your opinion and understand where you are coming from, but all good coaches have a few good players to back them up.

[manningstheman]

That is what is so funny, none of those things have anything to do with being a good or bad head coach. People mistake outward signs of emotion as any or all of those things, which is a complete hokum.

Excuse me... have u ever played football. I mean on a varsity team. All of those emotions are a huge part of football period. You need to have those emotions on your side in a fight. Football can not always be won by just being better then the other team. Sometimes when things just arent going your way, just having those football emotions and willing yourself to a victory is good enough. There is reason the league looks at the Colts as a "soft" team. And what u just said is why. Yes you need to have emotions. And it cant always just come from your QB or your assistant coaches. The head coach is the one that should be bringing those emotions. Yes, Dungy didnt show much emotion. But, if nothing else, when dungy was upset at a call or a player his face showed it. He looked like he was going to puke he was so mad sometimes. You dont have to yell to show emotions. Caldwell looks like he really doesnt care what happens half the time. Why should he. He was given this great team. Dungy built this great team. There was times when even Dundgy was questioned if he was a good coach. That said caldwell needs to start showing he appreciates the position he has. He needs to show some passion for this team. Period.

[manningstheman]

He's a big part of the "real" reason.

Dungy was a great coach, he never took Manning and the Colts to 14-0.

There would have been very few coaches that would have still got Manning and the Colts to the playoffs last year with all the injuries.

No way caldwell got this team to the playoffs last year. Manning got this team to the playoffs. So i guess when we were losing and Peyton was throwing pick after pick it was caldwell losing those games. No. It was Peyton. This team wins and losses with Peyton. Everyone knows it. When Peyton got his head together and felt more comfortable with the players he had around him, then he started winning games and throwing the ball all over the place. If you think at any point Caldwell sat Peyton down and talk to him about anything, your wrong. Caldwell was in the coaches office with all the other coaches praying to the football gods that Peyton would work it out.

[braveheartcolt]

He's a big part of the "real" reason.

Dungy was a great coach, he never took Manning and the Colts to 14-0.

There would have been very few coaches that would have still got Manning and the Colts to the playoffs last year with all the injuries.

It wasn't our pathetic overall rushing offense that got us to the play-offs. Nor our sieve like o-line, or ourpoor run defense or our special teams or our game time decision making or our fabulous utilisation of our 1st round pick. It was Manning's 4700 yards. We got there despite Caldwell.

[John Dee]

I have said it before and I will say it again even though few, if any, will agree. I think Caldwell will prove to be a better coach than Dungy. TO in the Jags game was absolutely the correct call. The TO in the Jets game was absolutely the wrong call. That does not negate the fact that he has already proven to be a very good coach and will get better with experience.

"better than Dungy" ?? Really?

TD has had one losing season on his resume while turning around Tampa and Indy.

Slow your roll bro..... Caldwell is a fit replacement and has the team's respect. But he will never approach Dungy's status in the Pro Football world until he takes on a team without a Peyton.

Caldwell inherited a Cadillac and has done what he is "supposed" to do with it thus far.

[John Dee]

He's a big part of the "real" reason.

Dungy was a great coach, he never took Manning and the Colts to 14-0.

There would have been very few coaches that would have still got Manning and the Colts to the playoffs last year with all the injuries.

You are vastly "underselling" the leadership on this team from the players. This team has a "culture" of winning. Same as NE and Pitt. And that is very contagious...

[CanuckColtsFan]

I'll tell you why people would rather have people like Gruden, Cowher, etc. as head coaches...

1.) passion

2.) fire

3.) tenacity

4.) energy

5.) enthusiasm

6.) ::insert other adjective here::

With the exception of Caldwell's anger at Chip Vaughn, Caldwell seems to lack these qualities. He doesn't believe in 4th down conversions, yelling at teammates (regularly), getting into the refs faces, onside kicks... Even in the Patriots 4th & 2 failed conversion game, it wasn't the Colts that went for 4th down. It was the Pats who beat themselves up. The Colts took it slow, methodical, and capitalized on the Pats. There was zero risk involved, other than relying on the constant arm of Peyton Manning.

People aren't looking strictly at Caldwell's record because they're also looking at his behavioral traits. This guy is going to lead our team once Manning retires, so we want to see the same level of tenacity Peyton Manning shows on the field as Caldwell shows on the sideline.

Why does a guy have to be screaming on the sidelines to show passion. Some people show their passion by coming to every sitution ready to put in the work necessary to win games.

[NM_Colts]

If you think at any point Caldwell sat Peyton down and talk to him about anything, your wrong. Caldwell was in the coaches office with all the other coaches praying to the football gods that Peyton would work it out.

O-M-G!! Hilarious! lol

So much of this thread is absolute nonsense.

[manningstheman]

O-M-G!! Hilarious! lol

So much of this thread is absolute nonsense.

[/

Sorry to say that my crap might be someone elses flowers. lol. say what??

[Coffeedrinker]

Excuse me... have u ever played football. I mean on a varsity team.

Varsity level? Yes I even played beyond HS, have you?

All of those emotions are a huge part of football period. You need to have those emotions on your side in a fight. Football can not always be won by just being better then the other team. Sometimes when things just arent going your way, just having those football emotions and willing yourself to a victory is good enough.

A few comments about this. One you are comparing players and coaches. Two, no team has ever willed themselves to victory, it's planning and execution. Three, some of the greatest drives in NFL (John Elway's, "The Drive", Montana in the SB, Colts in the AFCC Game, plus many others) they weren't the result of emotions, every single one had one thing in common, they talked about how the QB had ice in their veins. That is a phrase for they over staying cool under pressure, not letting your emotions take control. I bet the defensive players during those drives were very emotional.

There is reason the league looks at the Colts as a "soft" team. And what u just said is why. Yes you need to have emotions. And it cant always just come from your QB or your assistant coaches. The head coach is the one that should be bringing those emotions.

One, I can guarantee you the rest of the league does not look at the Colts as soft. And I don't really care what the talking heads think.

Yes, Dungy didnt show much emotion. But, if nothing else, when dungy was upset at a call or a player his face showed it. He looked like he was going to puke he was so mad sometimes. You dont have to yell to show emotions. Caldwell looks like he really doesnt care what happens half the time.

That is not true at all.

Why should he. He was given this great team. Dungy built this great team. There was times when even Dundgy was questioned if he was a good coach. That said caldwell needs to start showing he appreciates the position he has. He needs to show some passion for this team. Period.

No he doesn't. There is no reason for a coach to change who he is as a person because there are stupid fans out there that can't control their emotions, so they think a yelling, screaming coach is somehow better.

[Coffeedrinker]

It wasn't our pathetic overall rushing offense that got us to the play-offs.

No but it was the team running the ball well in the last 4 games of the season. that helped get the Colts there.

Nor our sieve like o-line,

You mean the best pass protecting oline in the NFL last year?

or ourpoor run defense

You mean the run defense that played well in the last 4 games of the regular season to help the Colts win and get into the playoffs?

or our special teams or our game time decision making or our fabulous utilisation of our 1st round pick. It was Manning's 4700 yards. We got there despite Caldwell.

This is complete nonsense. If you look at Manning's top 5 passing games last year, the Colts lost 4 of them.

[Coffeedrinker]

You are vastly "underselling" the leadership on this team from the players. This team has a "culture" of winning. Same as NE and Pitt. And that is very contagious...

I'm not underselling it. It is part of the culture and there is no way the players have a different culture than the coaching staff. A culture comes from the top and works it's way down, not the other way around.

[jskinnz]

Excuse me... have u ever played football. I mean on a varsity team. All of those emotions are a huge part of football period. You need to have those emotions on your side in a fight. Football can not always be won by just being better then the other team. Sometimes when things just arent going your way, just having those football emotions and willing yourself to a victory is good enough. There is reason the league looks at the Colts as a "soft" team. And what u just said is why. Yes you need to have emotions. And it cant always just come from your QB or your assistant coaches. The head coach is the one that should be bringing those emotions. Yes, Dungy didnt show much emotion. But, if nothing else, when dungy was upset at a call or a player his face showed it. He looked like he was going to puke he was so mad sometimes. You dont have to yell to show emotions. Caldwell looks like he really doesnt care what happens half the time. Why should he. He was given this great team. Dungy built this great team. There was times when even Dundgy was questioned if he was a good coach. That said caldwell needs to start showing he appreciates the position he has. He needs to show some passion for this team. Period.

That is 100% nonsense.

My favorite line is about Caldwell showing that he appreciates the position that he has by showing emotion on the field. Really, you think he doesn't appreciate the fact that he has one of 32 jobs like his in the freaking world because he doesn't scream like a * at his players or the refs? That is a categorically uninformed, ridiculous statement.

[GoColts8818]

Excuse me... have u ever played football. I mean on a varsity team. All of those emotions are a huge part of football period. You need to have those emotions on your side in a fight. Football can not always be won by just being better then the other team. Sometimes when things just arent going your way, just having those football emotions and willing yourself to a victory is good enough. There is reason the league looks at the Colts as a "soft" team. And what u just said is why. Yes you need to have emotions. And it cant always just come from your QB or your assistant coaches. The head coach is the one that should be bringing those emotions. Yes, Dungy didnt show much emotion. But, if nothing else, when dungy was upset at a call or a player his face showed it. He looked like he was going to puke he was so mad sometimes. You dont have to yell to show emotions. Caldwell looks like he really doesnt care what happens half the time. Why should he. He was given this great team. Dungy built this great team. There was times when even Dundgy was questioned if he was a good coach. That said caldwell needs to start showing he appreciates the position he has. He needs to show some passion for this team. Period.

Good night it's not like you have to play football to know what you are talking about, that's about as bad as the I've been a fan longer than you there for I know more than you arguement.

Yes emotions are a huge part of football and I would say our team has a lot of emotion, look at Peyton Manning for an example of that. There may not be a more emotional player in football. You also need someone who keeps their cool which is what Dungy and now Caldwell provides us that. If all you do is go on emotion you'll make poor choices in the heat of the moment. Most great coaches, no matter how firey they are keeps their head when the game on the line. Also it's not like Caldwell is the only coach who tries to keep their emotions in check. Look at BB in New England, I don't think anyone would ever use the word fire to describe him. If anything he's closer to a Cladwell or Dungy in terms of how he acts during a game than he is a Del Rio or Jim Mora.

It's not showing passion that makes you a great coach, if it was Jim Mora would still be the coach here and Jack Del Rio would be one of the best coaches in the NFL. It's what you know and being able to get the best out of your players that makes you a great coach.

Also watch Friday night's game, watch Chip Vaughn screw up. You saw Caldwell has a fire in him. How do you know what goes on in the lockerroom? I am sure Caldwell knows how to get his point across to his team when he needs to.

[GoColts8818]

I'm not underselling it. It is part of the culture and there is no way the players have a different culture than the coaching staff. A culture comes from the top and works it's way down, not the other way around.

Yes Polian brought there here and he along with Manning are the two things that haven't changed during this whole run. If anyone is responable for bringing that culture here it was Polian. He has done nothing but take struggling teams and turn them into some of the best teams in the NFL his whole career and as soon as he's left those other two jobs those teams went right back to struggling. Polian has proven he knows what it takes to put the right people in place to not only establish that culture but keep it going once he has it established and he felt Caldwell was a good fit for that. Maybe we should just try trusting Polian?

[GoColts8818]

No way caldwell got this team to the playoffs last year. Manning got this team to the playoffs. So i guess when we were losing and Peyton was throwing pick after pick it was caldwell losing those games. No. It was Peyton. This team wins and losses with Peyton. Everyone knows it. When Peyton got his head together and felt more comfortable with the players he had around him, then he started winning games and throwing the ball all over the place. If you think at any point Caldwell sat Peyton down and talk to him about anything, your wrong. Caldwell was in the coaches office with all the other coaches praying to the football gods that Peyton would work it out.

Why did Manning stop throwing picks? We got a bit of a ground game and we started stopping the run and Manning stopped feeling like he had to be the reason we won or lost.

I find it funny to some fans when players don't play well it's all Caldwell's fault. When they do play well it's inspite of Caldwell. Another double standard on Caldwell.

Every coach in the history of the of the NFL has been judged on his team's win and loss record and Caldwell's is 26-10 including a trip to the Super Bowl. That's pretty good over a two year span.

Also I love how you know what was going on in the coach's office.

The more I read this thread the more it reinfroces my opinion that some fans have already made up their minds about Caldwell, some from the moment he was hired, and nothing he does is going to change that and people have become more interested in seeing their point about Caldwell being proven right than they are at judging him based on his records.

I don't think Caldwell is a great coach. I think Caldwell was the best fit avalible for what they wanted at the time Tony Dungy left. I think there were better fits out there like a Lovie Smith but he wasn't on the market for us to hire at the time. I think Caldwell is a decent coach. He's not great like a Tony Dungy but he isn't the joke that some fans make him out to be either.

[GoColts8818]

I know...I was just using the terminology that the poster I was responding to did. I was assuming he meant further as in 'Superbowl'...

Fair enough. Like I said I got what you were getting at. Further was a poor word choice IMO by the other poster. Caldwell's already taken us to a Super Bowl there is only step further you can go beyond that and only two coaches in the history of the Colts franchises have taken them that far so if that's what it takes to be a good coach for this team that's a pretty high standard. So high that Don Shula didn't even meet it here.

[Superman]

Why did Manning stop throwing picks? We got a bit of a ground game and we started stopping the run and Manning stopped feeling like he had to be the reason we won or lost.

I find it funny to some fans when players don't play well it's all Caldwell's fault. When they do play well it's inspite of Caldwell. Another double standard on Caldwell.

Every coach in the history of the of the NFL has been judged on his team's win and loss record and Caldwell's is 26-10 including a trip to the Super Bowl. That's pretty good over a two year span.

Also I love how you know what was going on in the coach's office.

The more I read this thread the more it reinfroces my opinion that some fans have already made up their minds about Caldwell, some from the moment he was hired, and nothing he does is going to change that and people have become more interested in seeing their point about Caldwell being proven right than they are at judging him based on his records.

I don't think Caldwell is a great coach. I think Caldwell was the best fit avalible for what they wanted at the time Tony Dungy left. I think there were better fits out there like a Lovie Smith but he wasn't on the market for us to hire at the time. I think Caldwell is a decent coach. He's not great like a Tony Dungy but he isn't the joke that some fans make him out to be either.

Had we hired Lovie Smith, I'd be one of those fans you're talking about that had their minds made up from the beginning and could never be convinced otherwise. I think Lovie Smith is a substandard coach, and he actually has losing seasons to support my belief. Caldwell doesn't.

Many of us are in the same boat. It's so ridiculous -- the hatred of Caldwell -- that we kind of have no choice but to defend him. Some people don't like him, but are reasonable. Even FireJimmy, despite his screenname, isn't completely out of touch. But some people, mostly the same ones who can look at a person's facial expression for two or three minutes a week and determine matter of factly that he does nothing but stand on the sideline on Sundays, are so dead set on the idea that this team is basically on auto-pilot, and the only time they even notice the coaching is when something they don't like happens. It's really amazing to me. I'm sitting back reading this thread, shaking my head in wonderment. And then, when I get ready to reply to one of these non-sensical posts, I don't even know where to start.

I can't wait to start doing my Grades thread again. I'm going to spend a little more time on coaching, I think. That oughta be interesting.