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Surprised this not posted: End of Giants-Bucs game....


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Look, I respect different viewpoints on this subject. I respect your perspective Oldunclemark and I appreciate both FJC and Gramz presenting alternative perspectives as well.

Hypothetical situations are intriguing to debate to a certain point, and even if Eli had fumbled the ball and Tampa Bay would have scooped and scored, my initial reaction and disdain would still remain exactly the same.

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Look, I respect different viewpoints on this subject. I respect your perspective Oldunclemark and I appreciate both FJC and Gramz presenting alternative perspectives as well.

Hypothetical situations are intriguing to debate to a certain point, and even if Eli had fumbled the ball and Tampa Bay would have scooped and scored, my initial reaction and disdain would still remain exactly the same.

I feel what you are saying.. Part of me feels the same way.. I guess the question I ask myself is if the Colts were on the opposite side of the coin in the Super Bowl, and Alex Smith was about to take a knee would you want the Colts to stand there and start telling them good game?

I just can't say that I would be happy with that.

I wasn't happy with Irsay/Polian/Caldwell going on all Luke Skywalker on the Jets in 09... Different scenario, but I wanted them to play that and the Buffalo game out.

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One thing that will be interesting is how the 32 teams treat this type of play moving forward...

Excellent point FJC!

Ask Coach Mike Tomlin, Bill Belicheck, and John Harbaugh, 3 NFL head coaches I really respect in this league, what their reaction to this would be today media journalists?

I would love to hear their responses on the air myself.

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Excellent point FJC!

Ask Coach Mike Tomlin, Bill Belicheck, and John Harbaugh, 3 NFL head coaches I really respect in this league, what their reaction to this would be today media journalists?

I would love to hear their responses on the air myself.

That would be interesting to see/hear.

Is there a difference in taking a knee in the first half, or end of game.... Does the opinion shift if the lead is 1 vs, 14, vs. 28....

It's going to be interesting moving forward.

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I feel what you are saying.. Part of me feels the same way.. I guess the question I ask myself is if the Colts were on the opposite side of the coin in the Super Bowl, and Alex Smith was about to take a knee would you want the Colts to stand there and start telling them good game?

I just can't say that I would be happy with that.

I wasn't happy with Irsay/Polian/Caldwell going on all Luke Skywalker on the Jets in 09... Different scenario, but I wanted them to play that and the Buffalo game out.

This question presents an intriguing question: Does a hard defensive push on another team about to take a knee matter depending on the atmosphere and magnitude of the game i.e. Playoffs or Superbowl? Would this stunt be viewed the same way in December or not? Hmmm....

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This question presents an intriguing question: Does a hard defensive push on another team about to take a knee matter depending on the atmosphere and magnitude of the game i.e. Playoffs or Superbowl? Would this stunt be viewed the same way in December or not? Hmmm....

If Eli fumbles and Ronde Barber walks it in 30 yards for a touchdown, then Schiano would be ruled a genius by some. Some would call it cheap/dirty/etc. Some would bash the Giants for not being prepared.

It's a bit similar to the onside kick in the Super Bowl.. Some called it bush-league. Some called it gutsy. Some blamed Baskett, some blamed the coaches...

Not much of anything would be said if it was week 2.

Obviously the setting/magnitude of the game would expand the scope of discussion. If this was the NFC Championship game, I think a lot less people found find fault in Tampa trying to cause a turnover.

Like I said to start with, I can see both sides of the coin and I'm torn on my reaction to it. I'm just glad nobody was injured.

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I always remember what Oakland Raiders owner Al Davis always said "Just Win Baby." It does seem like coaches and rookie QB's get a shorter leash to win big in the NFL, usually meaning getting into the Playoffs your second year. Otherwise, you are on the "Hot Seat" and you have 1 more year before you and your staff get fired. The NFL is a "what have you done for me lately league" meaning within the past 6 months on average.

Is that what Greg Schiano was trying to do? Validate his presence and influence to Bucs ownership and instill pride in his men on the field? I'm trying to comprehend Schiano's justification for such a foolish act here, without much success I might add.

Does the end always justify the means no matter what? Meaning: Victories=Playoffs, Playoffs=Championships, Championships=Pay Upgrades and longevity in professional NFL coaching.

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I think Giants had lined up in the victory formation, had they not...?? It's a given at that point what they are going to do.

but what did the Bucs say or do is my question. Did they verbally agree and then trick the Giants (wrong IMO) or did they just ignore them, because by their very stances it was evident they were going to charge the ball. The Giants were not paying attention or are so used to the "unwritten etiquette" they just didn't even fathom anything other than the game being over? Never celebrate too soon. I'm not proposing right or wrong, just that they should of been paying more attention.

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I really wanna hear Bill Belicheck's reaction to Greg Schiano's move at the end of regulation because Bill's kid goes to college at the University of Rutgers, where he used to coach, and Bill knows Mr. Schiano personally.

I want to gain some insight into how Mr. Schiano thinks and what makes him tick. Was this a fluke episode or a pattern of regular conduct overall? I'm trying to give Mr. Schiano the benefit of the doubt here. We all make mistakes right?

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My answer is a hypocritical. I wouldn't want my team to give up, but I wouldn't want that done to my team. I certainly wouldn't want anyone inured whether it was done by my team or against my team.

Just like fans don't mind one-sided games when it's their team tilting the scoreboard, but if they are on the other side of it, they can call foul.

Some people say Manning catching at team with 12 men on the field is trickery, or cheap, while some say it's him taking advantage of the situation.

The same thing could be said with the fake spike by Marino, or when Manning fooled even the officials with the play vs. the Saints a few years ago(wish that was on You Tube).

http://jacksonville....ag_7912443.html

Heehee...this made me giggle, thanks for the reminder. I'm a sucker for a well executed trick play :)

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I really wanna hear Bill Belicheck's reaction to Greg Schiano's move at the end of regulation because Bill's kid goes to college at the University of Rutgers, where he used to coach, and Bill knows Mr. Schiano personally.

I want to gain some insight into how Mr. Schiano thinks and what makes him tick. Was this a fluke episode or a pattern of regular conduct overall? I'm trying to give Mr. Schiano the benefit of the doubt here. We all make mistakes right?

LOL, I don't think we want Beli and Schiano sharing tricks..... everyone needs to be ready for anything this season. :headspin:

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It goes both ways. now flip it for a second. If the offense comes up to the line in the "victory formation" and a offensive lineman cuts a defensive lineman on the play, all heck will break loose at the end of that play and that offensive lineman would get bashed in the media for doing it. but when a defensive lineman does it they're playing to the final whistle!?! c'mon man. both are legal but you just dont play that way when the game is decided already. this scenario just might happen to the Bucs next time they're in this situation and that offensive line is going to send them a message. it would be unfortunate but they would have brought it on themselves but trust me teams dont forget.

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It is totally legal, but is it ethical? They played a full game and one team is seconds from winning and the other team can do nothing but overload the line and dive at the legs of the relaxing O-lineman hoping to penetrate and to the QB and disrupt the snap hoping to recover a fumble and run it in for a score? Well, next time I face those folks in a similar situation, I tell the refs there is a 15 yard penalty for the D diving at the legs of a QB and to make sure that doesn't get missed should it happen. Then I tell my O-line to dive at the legs of the D and cut them from penetration. If I have greater than 8 point lead, maybe I lineup in V formation against them, and do a hard count to draw them offsides. Embarrassment. Then next play, I drop QB back at the snap to mini shotgun and have a guy streak out and lob a pass up and over so he can run under it and take it to the house and run up the score. Maybe some other things. Possibly even onsides kick with a lead. In other words, It will be

Baseball mentality. I won't forget. We'll remember, and come up with something to retaliate... legal, but maybe less than ethical stuff in return, but only against you. Playing straight up with others unless they do the same.

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It is totally legal, but is it ethical?

Baseball mentality. I won't forget. We'll remember, and come up with something to retaliate... legal, but maybe less than ethical stuff in return, but only against you. Playing straight up with others unless they do the same.

Neither will I ColtsBLUEFL. Pay back is a ______________. Rhymes with witch. :sarcasm::rawr: Shame on you Greg Schiano... :nono:

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I have to point out, that I'm almost as against an offense running 'Keystone Cops' to score last seconds of game as the D's disrupt the final Victory Formation play. At least on keystone Cops, the O is trying to do in desperation what it is designed to do; move to the endzone and score. The D play is the D trying in desperation to turnover the ball and in the same action become the O and advance for the score. I just feel that it is a form of sour grape for getting beaten and could bring out emotions in players. When emotions come out, typical less than good things happen. I'm not into wrestling or boxing matches in my football. Leave that to MMA and Hockey. ;)

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but what did the Bucs say or do is my question. Did they verbally agree and then trick the Giants (wrong IMO) or did they just ignore them, because by their very stances it was evident they were going to charge the ball. The Giants were not paying attention or are so used to the "unwritten etiquette" they just didn't even fathom anything other than the game being over? Never celebrate too soon. I'm not proposing right or wrong, just that they should of been paying more attention.

Even if they somehow got a fumble out of it, there was no time left.

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trying to win when the game is close when there are seconds left is embarrasing? I think watching an opposing team take a few kneel downs while the game is close is far more embarrassing

Is it embarrassing to run the ball when your winning, trying to waste the clock?

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Is it embarrassing to run the ball when your winning, trying to waste the clock?

what does that have to do with watching an opposing team take a few kneels down when your down by 1 score and seconds left? on one end you are actually running a few plays on the other end your watching a team just take a few knees while your just going through the motions of getting in your stance watching the other team do it
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what does that have to do with watching an opposing team take a few kneels down when your down by 1 score and seconds left? on one end you are actually running a few plays on the other end your watching a team just take a few knees while your just going through the motions of getting in your stance watching the other team do it

Because in the end it's the same. When your running the ball and your leading and its mid 4th quarter, all your trying to do is get more first downs just to waste more clock, not to necessarily score.. In the Giants situation, why would you be interested in getting a few plays in , when you've already won? To give the other team a chance? they already had their chance 4 quarters ago.

If somehow they somehow got the fumble recovery , then what? Theyre not going to beable to run the fumble in and not enough time to run a play.

It's not only dirty, it's completely pointless, that's why no one does it.

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I really want to go off on this one......I think I better not.....I am old school football...taming a little with the safety concerns however :)

All I can say is I wish the Colts did it to the Saints when down 62-7......and I hope Coach Schiano prepares his team for what will happen at the end of each game to serve as a lesson from those so-called unwritten rules.

Also, coaches that play Tamp need to give their players expectations that this is how the Bucs will play...last I checked an NFL game is 60 minutes fans.....HMMMMM did I like the move or not? Details at 10......film at 11. :)

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http://msn.foxsports...ial-play-091812

Eli says he actually told them "he was taking a knee".

Because in the end it's the same. When your running the ball and your leading and its mid 4th quarter, all your trying to do is get more first downs just to waste more clock, not to necessarily score.. In the Giants situation, why would you be interested in getting a few plays in , when you've already won? To give the other team a chance? they already had their chance 4 quarters ago.

If somehow they somehow got the fumble recovery , then what? Theyre not going to beable to run the fumble in and not enough time to run a play.

It's not only dirty, it's completely pointless, that's why no one does it.

Exactly right gentlemen. It's perfectly legal and a complete exercise in futility. All I can do is shake my head in sheer disbelief and disgust. That will always be my take on this episode. You've gotta correctly comprehend the situation. That's why it's called "situational football." What part of "I'm taking a knee" is so hard to comprehend with seconds left on the game clock Coach Gregg Schiano? :facepalm:

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I really want to go off on this one......I think I better not.....I am old school football...taming a little with the safety concerns however :)

All I can say is I wish the Colts did it to the Saints when down 62-7......and I hope Coach Schiano prepares his team for what will happen at the end of each game to serve as a lesson from those so-called unwritten rules.

Also, coaches that play Tamp need to give their players expectations that this is how the Bucs will play...last I checked an NFL game is 60 minutes fans.....HMMMMM did I like the move or not? Details at 10......film at 11. :)

I raise the :edit: flag. After TB intercepted a pass for a TD, they kicked off and NY had it with 2 seconds to go before halftime at their own 8. Giants line up in kneeldown formation, and TB only had 3 D lineman, all standing up and the rest scattered around the backfield walking around. Giants kneeled to run the clock and head into half time. Why wasn't TB playing hard then, Hmmmm? isn't those two seconds part of the 60 minutes? Wouldn't charging off the ball there causing a fumble on the NY Giants kneel formation and scampering in 8 yards for yet another TD a great way to go into halftime? Hmmmm? What makes those two seconds before halftime different than the five seconds at the end of the game?

It's because it isn't about playing hard nosed all 60 minutes, its a bush league sour grapes jerk reaction to getting your butt beat, and there was nothing left under the sun to try to salvage a victory. I hope the next time TB goes to kneel down just before halftime just to run out the clock to go into halftime the opposing D blows off the ball as hard as possible, and say they were just making sure they too were playing hard all 60 minutes. sheesh.

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This dog says.......play football! I need your point! Say it! Got SHEEESH! Say sometthing SMART??????? Make a point!

Point- Schiano is a hypocrite. He coached his players to play last play of the half and last play of the game totally opposite, in the same scenario. Hypocrite and bush league. I hope he gets his just rewards.

[ but understand fans who want the warriors to give their all, all of the time. I just feel there are times when saving a little may pay a lot. ;) ]

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Point- Schiano is a hypocrite. He coached his players to play last play of the half and last play of the game totally opposite, in the same scenario. Hypocrite and bush league. I hope he gets his just rewards.

[ but understand fans who want the warriors to give their all, all of the time. I just feel there are times when saving a little may pay a lot. ;) ]

He was almost crying on Mike and Mike this morning.....so much for being tough. I go back to the old Billy Martin lite Beer commercials......."I feel strongly both ways." (less filling...tastes great) I love good smash mouth football.....yet I do understand the differing views on this...especially with safety in the forefront (supposedly) Good post! Edited by BrentMc11
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Wow such a divisive topic and some good points made on both sides of the argument.

Personally I don't think there can be a right/wrong answer to this as it will be down to each individual's interpretation, well actually there is a right/wrong in that as far as I know nothing was done that was against the rules of the game but beyond that it's debatable.

Let's look a number of factors that have been cited by previous posts, firstly what did the Bucs stand to gain from this? As pointed out realistically they were unlikely to recover and run it back to the house, at best they have gained possession and drawn a penalty stopping the clock? So really was this about proving a point to the other 30 teams that the Bucs arn't to be messed with this season and are going to be playing the game hard? Mind games almost but it could ultimately cause more trouble, though I suppose it at least distracts from the fact they let Eli put 551 yards on them!

The second thing that has been pointed out is that Eli told them he was taking a knee. Ok that's good "etiquette" you could argue, but unless a Bucs player gave him indication that they had acknowledged this statement verbally of from how they lined up he should as a professional football player have a bit more awareness. I mean come on those guys lined up like dogs straining at the leash, I think at least someone on the offense should have second guessed what was going to happen. Although the Giants will argue they are morally right, I think they've made them selves look a bit naive.

I might lose a few readers here, but here in the UK cricket (wiki if you need too!), is regarded as the most sportsmanlike of all the sports played here, and there is a number of situations that occur where things are not in the laws of the game but are considered "gentlemanly" conduct. If a team or player abuses these conventions in general nothing will be down in terms of official punishment, but people (and umpires) have long memories and you tend to find what goes around comes around..... oh and borderline decisions not going your way in future!

Personally if there had been time on the clock and the Bucs had made it clear that they were going to contest the knee than I wouldn't see a problem with this at all..... when it's a fruitless exercise you end up looking a bit silly really.

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My personal view on the kneel down play is I hate it. If I had my way teams would have to run a real actual play and not just kneel on the ball.

I understand the safety point of all of this. Here you have one team wanting to just get out of dodge and taking it easy and the other team goes as hard as they can. Maybe the Bucs should have just told that they are coming after know matter what. If they still kneel on it then and take it lightly they only have themselves to blame.

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I raise the :edit: flag. After TB intercepted a pass for a TD, they kicked off and NY had it with 2 seconds to go before halftime at their own 8. Giants line up in kneeldown formation, and TB only had 3 D lineman, all standing up and the rest scattered around the backfield walking around. Giants kneeled to run the clock and head into half time. Why wasn't TB playing hard then, Hmmmm? isn't those two seconds part of the 60 minutes? Wouldn't charging off the ball there causing a fumble on the NY Giants kneel formation and scampering in 8 yards for yet another TD a great way to go into halftime? Hmmmm? What makes those two seconds before halftime different than the five seconds at the end of the game?

It's because it isn't about playing hard nosed all 60 minutes, its a bush league sour grapes jerk reaction to getting your butt beat, and there was nothing left under the sun to try to salvage a victory. I hope the next time TB goes to kneel down just before halftime just to run out the clock to go into halftime the opposing D blows off the ball as hard as possible, and say they were just making sure they too were playing hard all 60 minutes. sheesh.

Better yet, why didn't he call a timeout after Eli kneeled to retry the futile play?

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My personal view on the kneel down play is I hate it. If I had my way teams would have to run a real actual play and not just kneel on the ball.

I understand the safety point of all of this. Here you have one team wanting to just get out of dodge and taking it easy and the other team goes as hard as they can. Maybe the Bucs should have just told that they are coming after know matter what. If they still kneel on it then and take it lightly they only have themselves to blame.

Teams knell because there's absolutely no point in running a play. What are they going to do, outlaw the knell down? Fine, if they do that ( which they won't) teams will do fake handoffs where the running back just dives at the ground as soon as he gets it's or the QB will just claim he slipped behind the line. It would be un-enforceable.

And keep in mind the Giants scored a TD at the last minute, the Bucs failed to stop them, maybe they should've played harder when it counts.

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Wow such a divisive topic and some good points made on both sides of the argument.

Personally I don't think there can be a right/wrong answer to this as it will be down to each individual's interpretation, well actually there is a right/wrong in that as far as I know nothing was done that was against the rules of the game but beyond that it's debatable.

Let's look a number of factors that have been cited by previous posts, firstly what did the Bucs stand to gain from this? As pointed out realistically they were unlikely to recover and run it back to the house, at best they have gained possession and drawn a penalty stopping the clock? So really was this about proving a point to the other 30 teams that the Bucs arn't to be messed with this season and are going to be playing the game hard? Mind games almost but it could ultimately cause more trouble, though I suppose it at least distracts from the fact they let Eli put 551 yards on them!

The second thing that has been pointed out is that Eli told them he was taking a knee. Ok that's good "etiquette" you could argue, but unless a Bucs player gave him indication that they had acknowledged this statement verbally of from how they lined up he should as a professional football player have a bit more awareness. I mean come on those guys lined up like dogs straining at the leash, I think at least someone on the offense should have second guessed what was going to happen. Although the Giants will argue they are morally right, I think they've made them selves look a bit naive.

I might lose a few readers here, but here in the UK cricket (wiki if you need too!), is regarded as the most sportsmanlike of all the sports played here, and there is a number of situations that occur where things are not in the laws of the game but are considered "gentlemanly" conduct. If a team or player abuses these conventions in general nothing will be down in terms of official punishment, but people (and umpires) have long memories and you tend to find what goes around comes around..... oh and borderline decisions not going your way in future!

Personally if there had been time on the clock and the Bucs had made it clear that they were going to contest the knee than I wouldn't see a problem with this at all..... when it's a fruitless exercise you end up looking a bit silly really.

Very well written post! Great job! :thmup::applause:
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Better yet, why didn't he call a timeout after Eli kneeled to retry the futile play?

I wondered that same exact question myself Joker. Clearly, this was not Gregg Schiano's finest intellectual moment now was it? haha How does this instill a change in a losing Tampa Bay team's mindset exactly anyway? Hmmm...

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