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The greatest quarterback ever?


shakedownstreet
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I'm not sure what the Colts coaching / front office has to do with where I hold my own personal moral values.

The fact is that they cheated, It was significant enough to levy multiple lost draft picks, and a very hefty fine.

Whether you choose to ignore it or not that is your choice and everyone's choice. I'm sorry that I will not allow my morals to be swept under the rug, just because Brady is a "great" quarterback.

If you honestly think that the Patriots were fined that way because of the actual use of the camera, you clearly haven't been paying attention to Roger Goodell's tenure in office.

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People are acting like the Patriots' defense hasn't been awful since about 2009.

Can we stop pretending to forget that Brady led a team with one of the worst defenses in NFL history all the way to the Super Bowl?

It wasn't the toughest road, but still. The dude threw for over 5,000 yards. Credit.

The Patriots lead the AFC in turnovers last season. Hard to say that's one of the worst defenses in NFL history if they get a buttload of turnovers. Let alone lead their conference. 23 Ints, tied for second most in the league behind GB's 31. They had 34 total takeaways...only SF and GB had more in the entire NFL with 38 each.

That secondary was atrocious, sure - but the run D has always been pretty solid. It's not like it was 2000ish-2009, but it's still decent to good.

The Patriots also enjoy (usually) good special team play and frequently win the field position battle. ST is a greatly underappreciated aspect of a football team. You don't realize it until yours sucks, or always has sucked. (Indy)

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Steve Young...What might have been.

Wasted two years in the USFl

Wasted two years with Tampa Bay

Seven years with San Franscico four of which were spent sitting the bench behind Montana

Started seven years-seven years went to the Pro Bowl

Twice voted league MVP

One Super Bowl and Super Bowl MVP

Had young gone to the NFL straight from BYU he would hold every record known to man.

Dont' forget Roger Staubak put off football for four years to serve his military obligation.

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(Sorry double post)

So let's see:

Most takeaways in the AFC, third in the NFL.

Good average starting field position thanks to special teams AND turnovers.

Darth Hoodie.

A running back who never fumbles.

The big one -all day to throw/the best O-line in football. Again. 5-6 seconds to throw fairly consistently sidestep left, buy another 5-6 seconds with "great awareness." I counted 11-13 seconds he held on to the ball a few times in a couple games last season. No joke. That is INSANE.

2/3 of the best TE's in football.

Wes Welker. (Best slot receiver in football)

Decent to good run D.

Two lucky breaks in a row at the end of the Ravens game. (One was a good play, but let's be honest that should have been caught)

A poor secondary, one of the worst in football.

What an unlucky QB.

All that, only to lose to an inferior team when the D doesn't get turnovers and the QB doesn't enjoy the luxury of drinking a coolatta in the pocket. 2000-2004 Brady didn't get jittery like that, modern Brady does. He's got a stronger arm now, and is accurate as heck when you give him time, but he's not the GOAT. He's not even better than he was during their SB years. I'll take being cool under pressure and smarts over a stronger arm and trying to force the long ball any day. Old Brady wouldn't eat a safety to start the frickin' Superbowl. He had SIX seconds to throw before he threw it, but nerves got to him.

He can prove myself and a lot of other naysayers wrong this season. If that O-line is poor or even mediocre this season, as opposed to ABSURD, and performs at anywhere near his typical level I'll give him props. If Welker is gone on top of it, it makes an bigger oppurtunity for him to show what he's made of. Also throw in the fact Mr.Nofumbles is gone (BGJE)

Right now I think he's a great QB, but way, way, way, way, way, too much credit is given to him. GOAT? Not in my top 5. Not yet anyway.

Marino

Elway

Unitas

Staubach (sp?)

Manning - Also has a chance to show what he can do this season with a team that isn't below average to terrible. How he finishes his career could move him higher or out of the top 5. (If he was a "product" of the Colts' system, which I doubt.)

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Just got the book in the mail.

Man, this book is well, WELL researched. Ridiculously so. He breaks down Brady versus guys like Staubach, Marino, Montana, Peyton, etc. I've read the first four chapters so far.

I've never seen anyone come even close to doing this kind of statistical analysis between quarterbacks. I can easily see why Colt fans won't like this book at all.

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Yeah, going 17-1, and going to the Superbowl TWICE afterwards, proves nothing, eh?

Never mind the fact that BOTH Dungy and Polian have stated that Spygate was overblown (as do most football experts), and that the taping had nothing to do with the previous SB wins.

But hey, denial works for some people.

Losing twice in spectacular fashion. Spygate is what it is, but one can't deny that if it wasn't for the tuck rule Brady wouldn't really be in the whole discussion... Having said that Joe Montana is the greatest of all time.

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Losing twice in spectacular fashion. Spygate is what it is, but one can't deny that if it wasn't for the tuck rule Brady wouldn't really be in the whole discussion... Having said that Joe Montana is the greatest of all time.

That's odd, Brady never threw a pick six that sealed the deal for the other team.

THAT was done in spectacular fashion. If you want to use Brady not winning the SB as an argument against him, you BETTER put Peyton's pick-six play as a black mark against him as well, and that should have a heck of a lot more weight.

But yeah, I still think Montana is the best ever. The author's final chapter is about Brady vs. Montana; I'll get to that by Friday.

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That's odd, Brady never threw a pick six that sealed the deal for the other team.

THAT was done in spectacular fashion. If you want to use Brady not winning the SB as an argument against him, you BETTER put Peyton's pick-six play as a black mark against him as well, and that should have a heck of a lot more weight.

But yeah, I still think Montana is the best ever. The author's final chapter is about Brady vs. Montana; I'll get to that by Friday.

Is a pick-six with two minutes on the clock worse than a pick with ten seconds on the clock? Brady has thrown picks that ended games, playoff games, and he's thrown picks that hurt his team's chances of winning in the Super Bowl.

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That's odd, Brady never threw a pick six that sealed the deal for the other team.

THAT was done in spectacular fashion. If you want to use Brady not winning the SB as an argument against him, you BETTER put Peyton's pick-six play as a black mark against him as well, and that should have a heck of a lot more weight.

But yeah, I still think Montana is the best ever. The author's final chapter is about Brady vs. Montana; I'll get to that by Friday.

That pick was not Peyton's fault. The play call was bad, and it was a very predictable throw, but that was by design.....we've been a very predictable team for the last 10 years. He probably should have been smart enough to not call such a standard Reggie Wayne slant, or he should have stood in the pocket and made another read (to Collie), but Reggie did not go hard after the ball. It was pretty weak all around, but the throw was just fine and the pick was not on him.

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It cracks me up when people talk about NE's bad secondary. Is there a single team in the league that has a roster with zero holes, top to bottom? Giving up lots of passing yards isn't even necessarily a bad thing. If teams are throwing a lot at you, it probably means you're winning and allowing lots of easy throws underneath. Packers gave up lots of passing yards last year, but people never talk about them having a bad secondary; Woodson was DPOY a couple years ago.

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Just got the book in the mail.

Man, this book is well, WELL researched. Ridiculously so. He breaks down Brady versus guys like Staubach, Marino, Montana, Peyton, etc. I've read the first four chapters so far.

I've never seen anyone come even close to doing this kind of statistical analysis between quarterbacks. I can easily see why Colt fans won't like this book at all.

oh no, a book with a guy giving an opinion....sleepless nights ahead

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oh no, a book with a guy giving an opinion....sleepless nights ahead

Some people care a little too much about the Brady/Manning debate.

Seriously? There's a novel about it? lol

I wonder if there are Colts fans on the Pats board that jump into every thread that mentions Peyton. I imagine there are, but that just seems like a giant waste of time to me.

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Some people care a little too much about the Brady/Manning debate.

Seriously? There's a novel about it? lol

I wonder if there are Colts fans on the Pats board that jump into every thread that mentions Peyton. I imagine there are, but that just seems like a giant waste of time to me.

It's up to fans to defend their quarterback, nothing wrong with that.

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That's odd, Brady never threw a pick six that sealed the deal for the other team.

THAT was done in spectacular fashion. If you want to use Brady not winning the SB as an argument against him, you BETTER put Peyton's pick-six play as a black mark against him as well, and that should have a heck of a lot more weight.

But yeah, I still think Montana is the best ever. The author's final chapter is about Brady vs. Montana; I'll get to that by Friday.

Ummmmm, did Brady not shoot himself in the foot on the first play of the Super Bowl last year by getting called for a safety? Not only that, but the Giants had pressure on him the whole game. After that there were no notable changes in the offense. Then he threw a big interception with 4+ minutes left in the forth quarter that nearly cost them the game... Montana never did that.

138324656_crop_exact.jpg?w=650&h=440&q=75

I seem to recall another time Brady threw a pick to end a big game.

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Some people care a little too much about the Brady/Manning debate.

Seriously? There's a novel about it? lol

I wonder if there are Colts fans on the Pats board that jump into every thread that mentions Peyton. I imagine there are, but that just seems like a giant waste of time to me.

LOL.

I'm pretty sure that this is a Brady thread, not the other way around. But thanks for playing.

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Ummmmm, did Brady not shoot himself in the foot on the first play of the Super Bowl last year by getting called for a safety? Not only that, but the Giants had pressure on him the whole game. After that there were no notable changes in the offense. Then he threw a big interception with 4+ minutes left in the forth quarter that nearly cost them the game... Montana never did that.

138324656_crop_exact.jpg?w=650&h=440&q=75

I seem to recall another time Brady threw a pick to end a big game.

[

Brady was NOT pressured all game matter fact he had 24 COMPLETIONS in a row a new SB record.... it wasnt till he got hammered in the 3rd(?) qrtr where he hurt his shoulder that the Pats O was actually stopped from moving the ball effectively.

And gawd another Manning v Brady thread sigh...

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SUPERBOWLS ARE WON BY TEAMS. RECORDS AND AWARDS ARE WON BY PLAYERS.

PEYTON OWNS BRADY

STOP USING SB WINS AS A VALIDATION FOR BRADYS GREATNESS. ITS OLD AND POINTLESS.

Stop yelling!! lol but lets see Brady's INDIVIDUAL records:

1. Most TD's in a season

2. 2nd most passing yards EVER in a season

3. 2 SB MVP's

4. 2 League MVP's

Now lets look at Brady as the LEADER of the team in the 10 years he been the QB for NE:

6 AFCCG Games

5 SB

10 straight 9+ win seasons

Now I am not saying he is better than Manning but the Man has proven he is one of the Greats ok! And neither one owned the other that is just silly talk!

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LOL.

I'm pretty sure that this is a Brady thread, not the other way around. But thanks for playing.

Thus my comment, 'I wonder if there are Colts fans on the Pats board that jump into every thread that mentions Peyton.' You are a Pats fan on a Colts board, that only joins a discussion if someone says the name 'Tom Brady'. Don't you have anything better to do? At least the other Pats fans and Texans fans on here talk about other things.

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SUPERBOWLS ARE WON BY TEAMS. RECORDS AND AWARDS ARE WON BY PLAYERS.

PEYTON OWNS BRADY

STOP USING SB WINS AS A VALIDATION FOR BRADYS GREATNESS. ITS OLD AND POINTLESS.

Um.

Yeah.

Never mind, eh, that Brady puts up as good, if not better, stats when given similar weapons on offense?

Or that Brady has a better TD/INT ratio than Peyton?

Or that Brady has the better QB rating? (Not a fan of that stat, but nevertheless...)

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Brady was NOT pressured all game matter fact he had 24 COMPLETIONS in a row a new SB record.... it wasnt till he got hammered in the 3rd(?) qrtr where he hurt his shoulder that the Pats O was actually stopped from moving the ball effectively.

And gawd another Manning v Brady thread sigh...

Brady finished the game 27/41 with an interception. He must have really sucked after those 24 straight completions. The way you guys type makes me think you have internet tourettes, and just yell random words. I wasn't even going to bring Manning, or Brady into the discussion because they are not the best.

We can all agree that the worst part was sitting through the Madonna halftime show.

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Brady finished the game 27/41 with an interception. He must have really sucked after those 24 straight completions. The way you guys type makes me think you have internet tourettes, and just yell random words. I wasn't even going to bring Manning, or Brady into the discussion because they are not the best.

We can all agree that the worst part was sitting through the Madonna halftime show.

POTATO!

DIE THREAD, DIE!

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Posted · Hidden by Nadine, September 7, 2012 - personal shot
Hidden by Nadine, September 7, 2012 - personal shot

Regardless they cheated. You can't argue that FACT. End of Story.

Your response to my response says more about your take on "Spygate" than I could ever say. Anyone with half a mind has already figured that out. Maybe someday you'll take the time to be properly informed before throwing irresponsibly inaccurate information out there.

Sorry for sinking that ship on you, amigo! Had to be done.

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I'm not sure what the Colts coaching / front office has to do with where I hold my own personal moral values.

The fact is that they cheated, It was significant enough to levy multiple lost draft picks, and a very hefty fine.

Whether you choose to ignore it or not that is your choice and everyone's choice. I'm sorry that I will not allow my morals to be swept under the rug, just because Brady is a "great" quarterback.

Again... wrong. One pick was taken away.

Facts are clearly not your thing.

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Just got the book in the mail.

Man, this book is well, WELL researched. Ridiculously so. He breaks down Brady versus guys like Staubach, Marino, Montana, Peyton, etc. I've read the first four chapters so far.

I've never seen anyone come even close to doing this kind of statistical analysis between quarterbacks. I can easily see why Colt fans won't like this book at all.

Got mine yesterday. I felt like Ralphie in "A Christmas Story" when he opens up the present with the BB gun, lol...

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Wow, lol... some things never change.

I've been hanging around on some Indy boards since 2005. My observation is that Colts fans are FAR more defensive in the "Brady vs. Manning" discussion. And that's my honest take.

Why? I think I know.

Regardless of which guy you think is better (and I've said, time and time again, that we should wait until they're actually done playing), it's hard to argue against the notion that Brady has the more "decorated" career at this point. That doesn't make him better, mind you. He's just gotten more positive attention. Manning had to overcome the whole "can't win the big one" notion until 2006... a notion that followed him from Tennessee. Again, not saying that decides anything, and it's certainly not fair, but when it comes down to it, people will regard their playoff records (16-6 vs. 9-10) and weigh that disproportionately.

My respect for Manning grew exponentially from the earlier days of the rivalry to the more recent years. I've enjoyed watching both guys play, watching them set records, and it's made the NFL incredibly entertaining for the last decade. BOTH guys will punch their ticket to the HOF on their first ballots. BOTH guys will make most people's "top 10 of all time" lists. They're the Magic and Bird of this era of football... the Ali and Frazier... one of the best rivalries the game's ever seen.

Can't we just appreciate that as fans instead of tearing one or the other down because we're too sensitive to hear anyone say that one is better than the other?

Neither of their stories are over yet. Maybe when they both hang up the cleats, there will be a clear-cut favorite. But to me, it's a waste of time to try to say now, in any definitive way.

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Brady finished the game 27/41 with an interception. He must have really sucked after those 24 straight completions. The way you guys type makes me think you have internet tourettes, and just yell random words. I wasn't even going to bring Manning, or Brady into the discussion because they are not the best.

We can all agree that the worst part was sitting through the Madonna halftime show.

LOL I meant 14 not 24 typo I didnt catch. And here is my proof for the non believers:

http://www.nesn.com/2012/02/tom-brady-breaks-super-bowl-records-for-consecutive-completions-career-passing-yards.html

Now AFTER the hit his accuracy went to crap... I think he was like 0 for the next 9? so the hit made a HUGE difference in the game. (was a legal hit but it changed everything.)

And the Madonna halftime show was gawd awful!

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Agree with your entire post.

Oh and......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDQAmuZ8t94

Jules, that is some spectacular video footage you've accumulated there. How that Tuck Rule was interpreted by NFL zebras was complete nonsense. It still burns me to this day. :cuss: But, if I am honest, Tom Brady still kept his composure and he put Adam in a position to kick the game winning field goal. Facts are facts and that reality cannot be disputed.

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Look, I have a ton of respect for Tom Brady going to 5 SBs and winning 3 is a tremendous accomplishment and if Gronk had been healthy and prevented that NY Giants Blackburn interception it wouldn't have come down to a Wes Welker pass that was actually a bad throw by Brady. The final outcome could easily have been a NE Patriots victory.

Tom Brady has come a long way since his INDY Combine days, beating out starting QB Drew Bledsoe, and winning SBs with no name wide receivers. He takes the blame for a poor performance recently in a Preseason game when everybody knows his offensive line is a work in progress. In 2009, when his team can't convert a 4th down against Indianapolis, Brady doesn't throw his coach under the bus. He says, "I love my coach and I admire his willingness to go for it and the confidence he has in me and the offensive unit. We didn't deliver that isn't Belicheck's fault. It's mine."

“Tommy does such a good job of making you feel like you’re the best receiver, the best left tackle, the best tight end on the field,” Shea said. “He tells you he loves you. He makes you feel good about yourself. He expects a high level of play from himself, and more than any other player, he gets it out of everyone else. He’s got Bill, a tough guy coach there. And then Tommy’s there to say, ‘Hey listen, we won’t drop that again.’ He brings out the best in everyone.”

Tom claims he wants to play in the NFL for 20 years. He's smart with the football, releases the ball quickly, slides beautifully in the pocket, and he always absorbs team mate criticisms by the the media. That attitude fosters loyalty in the locker room and his o-line will always have Brady's back. That's what ensures longevity and Championships...Health and protection up front. Tom Brady will easily win another Championship IMO.

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There was the possibility of multiple draft picks being lost if they didn't make the playoffs.

Which is why you wrote that in the past tense? LOL...

But whatever, I'm not trying to change your mind. That would obviously be a waste of your time as well as mine. I'm just encouraging you to get your facts straight.

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I never liked questions like this one. Is Tom Brady a great QB, a elite QB, a HOF QB? You bet your caboose he is. I may be a Colts fan, but I'm not stupid. Tom Brady's best asset is his 2 minute drill clutchness. He often delivers best when it matters most.

Some many great QBs have played in the NFL: Joe Montana, John Elway, Steve Young, Warren Moon, Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Jim Kelly. I have trouble narrowing down to just one myself. Maybe analysts should just say: Which QB scares the bleep out of a defense the most? Tom Brady and Peyton Manning will always be in that conversation because I know how incredibly dangerous they both are...And that is the highest complement I can pay to Tom Brady. :flyingelvis: :thmup:

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Look, I have a ton of respect for Tom Brady going to 5 SBs and winning 3 is a tremendous accomplishment and if Gronk had been healthy and prevented that NY Giants Blackburn interception it wouldn't have come down to a Wes Welker pass that was actually a bad throw by Brady. The final outcome could easily have been a NE Patriots victory.

Tom Brady has come a long way since his INDY Combine days, beating out starting QB Drew Bledsoe, and winning SBs with no name wide receivers. He takes the blame for a poor performance recently in a Preseason game when everybody knows his offensive line is a work in progress. In 2009, when his team can't convert a 4th down against Indianapolis, Brady doesn't throw his coach under the bus. He says, "I love my coach and I admire his willingness to go for it and the confidence he has in me and the offensive unit. We didn't deliver that isn't Belicheck's fault. It's mine."

“Tommy does such a good job of making you feel like you’re the best receiver, the best left tackle, the best tight end on the field,” Shea said. “He tells you he loves you. He makes you feel good about yourself. He expects a high level of play from himself, and more than any other player, he gets it out of everyone else. He’s got Bill, a tough guy coach there. And then Tommy’s there to say, ‘Hey listen, we won’t drop that again.’ He brings out the best in everyone.”

Tom claims he wants to play in the NFL for 20 years. He's smart with the football, releases the ball quickly, slides beautifully in the pocket, and he always absorbs team mate criticisms by the the media. That attitude fosters loyalty in the locker room and his o-line will always have Brady's back. That's what ensures longevity and Championships...Health and protection up front. Tom Brady will easily win another Championship IMO.

I always appreciate your objectivity, and try to use the same approach. Props to you, sir.

At first it was difficult to admit it, but as a rivalry goes on, you start to gain a true appreciation for the other guy throwing punches and going blow-for-blow with your guy. Magic and Bird are now close, close friends. Apollo and Rocky became pals and Apollo even trains Rocky against Clubber Lang, LOL!

It's how it SHOULD work. Sports are not war. It's a game, even at a pro level. And respecting your opponent is never a bad thing.

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I always appreciate your objectivity, and try to use the same approach. Props to you, sir.

At first it was difficult to admit it, but as a rivalry goes on, you start to gain a true appreciation for the other guy throwing punches and going blow-for-blow with your guy. Magic and Bird are now close, close friends. Apollo and Rocky became pals and Apollo even trains Rocky against Clubber Lang, LOL!

It's how it SHOULD work. Sports are not war. It's a game, even at a pro level. And respecting your opponent is never a bad thing.

Thank GoPats. I, too, greatly admire your objectivity, candor, and spot on analysis my friend. Also, I am not kidding when I say that my measuring stick for NFL greatness is always against Bill Belicheck and Tom Brady. When Luck and Pagano can hang with the Foxboro mastermind and Tom Terrific, then I know the Colts have been molded and reborn for some serious Playoffs contention.

Speaking of Clubber Lang and Rocky, "I pity the fool that doesn't respect either Peyton Manning or Tom Brady." haha The competitive fire in both men is off the charts like an active volcano belching hot, scorching, molten lava. The only way to defeat either field general is to keep them seated on the sideline bench converting 3rd and long time after time. And never either Brady or Manning 30 seconds on the game clock down 7...They will burn your squad every time. :thmup:

I have said this before but it bears repeating: I respect the entire Patriots organization from the top down. Robert Kraft is a great NFL owner. Bill Belicheck is a great coach going back his NY Giants DC days under Bill Parcells. Belicheck is a defensive genuis. LB Tedy Bruschi is a shining example and ambassador of "The Patriot Way," which is team first and do your job and your job only exceptionally well no complaining and no shortcuts ever. And your front office always knows when to cut a guy, when to keep a guy, and when to get a guy at the right price AKA Randy Moss. Only last point: Vince Wilfork never gets the respect he truly deserves. That man is a BEAST who always stops an opponent's ground game dead in it's tracks. The BIG Man's a STUD. No doubt about it.

Your Patriots are about to have a very good year GOPats. By 2014, the best rivalry in fooball will have emerged from quiet slumber and dormancy...Colts vs. Patriots.

"I can't wait!" buddy. :coltshelmet: VS :pats:

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"I can't wait!" buddy. :coltshelmet: VS :pats:

Me too, amigo. When the Patriots did lose big games to Indy (a couple come to mind, haha!) it's fans like you and Jules and Bayone... being happy for you guys took some of the sting away, LOL!

Good luck on Sunday. And good Luck! (Who I grabbed in the 7th or 8th round of FF as a future keeper potential guy!)

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Me too, amigo. When the Patriots did lose big games to Indy (a couple come to mind, haha!) it's fans like you and Jules and Bayone... being happy for you guys took some of the sting away, LOL!

Good luck on Sunday. And good Luck! (Who I grabbed in the 7th or 8th round of FF as a future keeper potential guy!)

Thanks buddy. I really appreciate that! I respect fans like you that truly understand that wins and loses never come down to just 1 guy. Yes, that franchise guy is usually a tremendous asset, but so many plays come down to inches and being at the right place at exactly the right time. Good luck to Mr. Terrific and Co. as well.

GOPats you do have an eye for talent and luck has got nothing to do with it right? It's called skill baby pure and simple. :thmup:haha You're A Okay in my book amigo. Brilliant minds always tend to flock together don't they? What's that expression? Don't hate the player hate the game? :lol: Just Kidding my friend.

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In 1 of my earlier entries in this thread, I posted a Herm Edwards clip where he spoke about professionalism and "You Play To Win The Game!" That's another reason I respect the Patriots. Despite the controversy over the Tuck Rule, Tom Brady stayed calm, cool, and collected. He marched his squad down the field and Brady put his squad in the best position to win.

He wasn't rattled. He just was a professional about it and he enabled his squad to win that AFC Championship Game. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Tom's mental toughness and intestinal fortitude. This is another reason why Tom Brady is an elite NFL QB IMO.

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Me too, amigo. When the Patriots did lose big games to Indy (a couple come to mind, haha!) it's fans like you and Jules and Bayone... being happy for you guys took some of the sting away, LOL!

Good luck on Sunday. And good Luck! (Who I grabbed in the 7th or 8th round of FF as a future keeper potential guy!)

Very nice of u to say, Best of Luck this year,, If not colts let Peytons Broncos meet the Pats in another AFC Championship Classic .Kraft is a great owner, sure he's still stung by the real loss, his wife Myra, if I remember correct was last summer during the lockout. I am sure that's the worse of his losses, not a football game

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