The greatest quarterback ever?

[SilentHill]

Brady? GOAT?

Never.

Let's not forget that the Pats have yet to win a SB since spygate.

[Qwiz]

Brady? GOAT?

Never.

Let's not forget that the Pats have yet to win a SB since spygate.

Yet they have continued to dominate the sport, including going to the Super Bowl as recently as last year. This argument comes up way too much, isn't there something else you can use to make the argument that Brady is not the "goat"?

[SilentHill]

Yet they have continued to dominate the sport, including going to the Super Bowl as recently as last year. This argument comes up way too much, isn't there something else you can use to make the argument that Brady is not the "goat"?

Sure.

He cheated, at least once. He is therefore banned from being the GOAT.

[Qwiz]

Sure.

He cheated, at least once. He is therefore banned from being the GOAT.

Whatever floats your boat. I guess if he wins two more SBs he'll still be only second to everyone else. That's a logical way of thinking.

[bayone]

Brady is very good, but I don't think he is the greatest of all time. I'd have him in my personal top 10, but not top 5. The problem with trying to claim someone as the best player ever is that there are too many differences. Players play under different rules in different systems with different coaches and different supporting crews. It's impossible to definitively determine who is the best player of all time. It's all just a matter of opinion.

They always say he did it without Peytons Weapons, but then again when he won SB he always had Hoodie & a better all around team when consider the D he had at the time

Hoodie has always been there, that's consistency of always having a genius for a coach

All allowed opinions, dont want another debate thread

[bayone]

Considering that Brady has bested Peyton in most ways, has led his team to 5 Superbowls versus Peyton's 2, has the season TD record, the best ever TD:INT ratio in NFL history, has the highest playoff win total in NFL history (tied with Montana), etc., my question becomes:

who IS your top 5?

alot of the stats I will give u, alot is also based on timer behind great offensive line to help pick apart players till recently, yes season with o or 1 IT was amazing 1 season and then threw some in playoffs and loss but still amazing stat

The 1 that Irks me is TD record as u have to admit he went for it , while peyton in 2004 basically gave up 2.5 games sitting out

and last season game Vs Denver he played Denver next in playoffs and got 4 TDs I believe

Lets face it we all have i opinions and can go back and forth all day citing different things

I have had enough, I've said my short piece and lets just end this thread sooner rather than later

wouldnt it be nice to be able to just say both great and have some some peace

Have a good night all

[ViriLudant]

Brady? GOAT?

Never.

Let's not forget that the Pats have yet to win a SB since spygate.

Yeah, going 17-1, and going to the Superbowl TWICE afterwards, proves nothing, eh?

Never mind the fact that BOTH Dungy and Polian have stated that Spygate was overblown (as do most football experts), and that the taping had nothing to do with the previous SB wins.

But hey, denial works for some people.

[CCH]

There will never be a Michael Jordan of football because it is too much of a team sport, and the game keeps changing. There will always be debate.

1.) Peyton Manning

2.) Dan Marino

3.) Joe Montana

4.) John Elway

5.) Tom Brady

Is my top 5. When judging players in football you need to take talent and production ahead of team accomplishments. If anyone thinks that Marino was never good enough to win a Super Bowl they need to get their head checked. It's the team that wins rings.

[Elmo]

Brady? GOAT?

Never.

Let's not forget that the Pats have yet to win a SB since spygate.

Yeah, Spygate was definitely the end of that regime, they have totally sucked since then.

Give me a break, you're embarrassing Colts fans as a whole with such a redundant statement.

[shakedownstreet]

[SilentHill]

Yeah, Spygate was definitely the end of that regime, they have totally sucked since then.

Give me a break, you're embarrassing Colts fans as a whole with such a redundant statement.

I'm embarrassing colts fans because I will not say that a CHEATER is in the running to be GOAT?

Well then sir, by those standards Barry Bonds was the greatest baseball player that ever played the game, and countless other athletes that got caught cheating should be considered among the greats that didn't.

Regardless of What Brady has accomplished and will accomplish, I will always see that back in the early 2000's he studied final walkthroughs of the opposing teams defense illegally. Take it how you want it. He still cheated.

[Fx Stryker]

There will never be a Michael Jordan of football because it is too much of a team sport, and the game keeps changing. There will always be debate.

1.) Peyton Manning

2.) Dan Marino

3.) Joe Montana

4.) John Elway

5.) Tom Brady

Is my top 5. When judging players in football you need to take talent and production ahead of team accomplishments. If anyone thinks that Marino was never good enough to win a Super Bowl they need to get their head checked. It's the team that wins rings.

There may not be a MJ, but there is a Babe Ruth. Just like Babe Ruth is THE baseball Player. Johnny Unitas is THE quarterback. It all started with Johnny.

[Elmo]

I'm embarrassing colts fans because I will not say that a CHEATER is in the running to be GOAT?

Well then sir, by those standards Barry Bonds was the greatest baseball player that ever played the game, and countless other athletes that got caught cheating should be considered among the greats that didn't.

Regardless of What Brady has accomplished and will accomplish, I will always see that back in the early 2000's he studied final walkthroughs of the opposing teams defense illegally. Take it how you want it. He still cheated.

You are such a blind fan. Using steroids in baseball and Spygate aren't even comparable, considering the fact that Spygate offered little to no advantage, and it has been done by many other franchises also. Nobody thinks Jimmy Johnson's Cowboys championships are tainted, and they did the exact same thing. Read this:

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/05/01/eric-mangini-regrets-turning-in-the-patriots-over-spygate/

Mangini said. “And it doesn’t tarnish what we achieved there. It doesn’t tarnish what they achieved after the fact. I think when you look at the history of success that they had after that incident, it’s pretty obvious that it didn’t play any type of significant role in the victories we had or the success that we had.”

[Elmo]

Whatever floats your boat. I guess if he wins two more SBs he'll still be only second to everyone else. That's a logical way of thinking.

Nice having a fan from another franchise on the boards. It helps keep out the emotional attachment, and keeps the goggles clear. I get along best with realists, hopefully that's mutual.

With that being said, the Patriots really strike a chord with a lot of Colts fans. Some of it is warranted, I mean, Bill Belichick is certainly... not the most outgoing or nicest personality in the NFL. And some of his actions are questionable. But you can't take away greatness because of that. He's a football genius that set up a franchise with a decade + of success. That should be respected.

[Qwiz]

Nice having a fan from another franchise on the boards. It helps keep out the emotional attachment, and keeps the goggles clear. I get along best with realists, hopefully that's mutual.

With that being said, the Patriots really strike a chord with a lot of Colts fans. Some of it is warranted, I mean, Bill Belichick is certainly... not the most outgoing or nicest personality in the NFL. And some of his actions are questionable. But you can't take away greatness because of that. He's a football genius that set up a franchise with a decade + of success. That should be respected.

I agree wholeheartedly. My last post was one brimming with sarcasm, just in case you couldn't tell hahaha. Yeah, two fanbases with the two greatest quarterbacks of our era duking it out will create animosity between said fanbases. It's natural. Belichick is going to go down as one of the best coaches of all time as well. There will always be questions, but it is what it is. And the feeling is mutual my friend...I am a realist as well, always good to meet another hahaha.

[Steagles]

Montana

Unitas

Marino

Elway

Peyton Manning

[Elmo]

I agree wholeheartedly. My last post was one brimming with sarcasm, just in case you couldn't tell hahaha. Yeah, two fanbases with the two greatest quarterbacks of our era duking it out will create animosity between said fanbases. It's natural. Belichick is going to go down as one of the best coaches of all time as well. There will always be questions, but it is what it is. And the feeling is mutual my friend...I am a realist as well, always good to meet another hahaha.

Yeah, I got your sarcasm, it was well placed lol. By the way, I was pulling for the Texans in the playoffs last year, if the Colts weren't going anywhere I wanted an AFC South team to represent . I want to see the Colts and Texans duke in out in the regular season, but I'd like to see the Texans make a title run, since the Colts are going to be down and out come January. The AFC South needs more respect in the NFL.

[Qwiz]

Yeah, I got your sarcasm, it was well placed lol. By the way, I was pulling for the Texans in the playoffs last year, if the Colts weren't going anywhere I wanted an AFC South team to represent . I want to see the Colts and Texans duke in out in the regular season, but I'd like to see the Texans make a title run, since the Colts are going to be down and out come January. The AFC South needs more respect in the NFL.

Exactly. If Manning was still here, with Locker's emergence and Jacksonville's improvements, we could have been very competitive and very interesting. Instead, it seems like no one wants to look at us. Still, this is the South and every game should be a hard-fought battle this year. Next year, the AFC South will be getting a lot more respect, unless Tennessee and Jacksonville decide to just tank and self-implode with their respective young quarterbacks. I too am looking forward to a Texan title run this year, of course.

[fvantagio]

So when a great QB has a down year, do you blame it on the QB or perhaps the rest of the offense as well?

Well Peytons only real "down year" was when he lost basically every starter on offense besides reggie and saturday. And oh yea...he still threw for 4000+ yards and 25 tds. and made it to the playoffs, only to lose because of a boneheaded coaching decision and poor ST and defense.

You said "Individual stats also require having good WRs, a good O-line, etc." So what about that year when Peyton had no Oline and no good receivers...unless of course you consider taj smith and Blair White good receivers. To me its that right there that determines Manning as the better QB, because yes he put up great numbers when he had an excellent team around him. But even when the entire team fell apart, Manning stepped his game up and continued to put up elite numbers.

[ViriLudant]

Well Peytons only real "down year" was when he lost basically every starter on offense besides reggie and saturday. And oh yea...he still threw for 4000+ yards and 25 tds. and made it to the playoffs, only to lose because of a boneheaded coaching decision and poor ST and defense.

You said "Individual stats also require having good WRs, a good O-line, etc." So what about that year when Peyton had no Oline and no good receivers...unless of course you consider taj smith and Blair White good receivers. To me its that right there that determines Manning as the better QB, because yes he put up great numbers when he had an excellent team around him. But even when the entire team fell apart, Manning stepped his game up and continued to put up elite numbers.

Wayne didn't play that year? Which year are you referring to?

Because Wayne played 16 games every year except for his rookie year. So sorry, no WRs is completely incorrect.

How about Brady in '06? Throwing to the likes of Reche Caldwell, who was his #1? Please. Peyton ALWAYS had offensive weapons. From Marvin Harrison to Marcus Pollard to Edgerrin James to Dallas Clark to Reggie Wayne.

[shakedownstreet]

[GoPats]

Regardless of What Brady has accomplished and will accomplish, I will always see that back in the early 2000's he studied final walkthroughs of the opposing teams defense illegally. Take it how you want it. He still cheated.

I'm not going to get into this thread other than to let you know that if this is what you're basing your opinion on, you're basing your opinion on false information. The Patriots had ZERO tapes of opponents' walk-throughs. The tapes showed opposing coaches signaling in defensive plays from the sideline.

Usually these things work better when you follow the steps in this order:

1. Obtain facts.

2. Form an opinion.

Not:

1. Form an opinion.

2. Hope that facts back it up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this kind of thing really bothers me. If you know the facts and you have an opinion, awesome. If you don't, and your opinion is particularly critical, it makes you - or anyone, for that matter - look foolish.

[GoPats]

Double post, sorry.

[IndyTrav]

I'm not going to get into this thread other than to let you know that if this is what you're basing your opinion on, you're basing your opinion on false information. The Patriots had ZERO tapes of opponents' walk-throughs. The tapes showed opposing coaches signaling in defensive plays from the sideline.

Usually these things work better when you follow the steps in this order:

1. Obtain facts.

2. Form an opinion.

Not:

1. Form an opinion.

2. Hope that facts back it up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this kind of thing really bothers me. If you know the facts and you have an opinion, awesome. If you don't, and your opinion is particularly critical, it makes you - or anyone, for that matter - look foolish.

My respect for Bill B is what tips my hand in regards to Spygate. I think he's the best coach I've ever seen and is a genius on a football level. This is what leads me to believe that they gained something from those tapes. I think Bill is to smart to tape something that meant nothing.

[GoPats]

My respect for Bill B is what tips my hand in regards to Spygate. I think he's the best coach I've ever seen and is a genius on a football level. This is what leads me to believe that they gained something from those tapes. I think Bill is to smart to tape something that meant nothing.

Don't get me wrong, "Spygate" was - by definition - cheating. I'm sure there was some benefit to it, however small, because as you stated Belichick would not have kept the practice going if it was worthless.

But the previous poster was wrong about what was ON the tapes.

Filming signals is something that any fan at a game with a good enough camera can do. Half the time coaches are on TV they're covering their mouths with a clipboard. For a reason.

Filming a walk-through at a CLOSED practice would, in my opinion, be a much greater offense. And that's not at all what the Spygate tapes were. So I was just kind of pointing it out for the record and probably got a little snarky about it. :ashamed:

[GrizzColt]

When Brady had the great defenses he won. When they retired, he hasn't won since. Plus, Brady CHOKED on the Wes Welker pass.

John Unitas' Colts won 3 NFL championships, went to 2 Super Bowls (won 1 of them), won the greatest game ever played, ....and oh, yeah,...he invented the modern day QB position. As tough a guy as they come.

[Fx Stryker]

When Brady had the great defenses he won. When they retired, he hasn't won since. Plus, Brady CHOKED on the Wes Welker pass.

John Unitas' Colts won 3 NFL championships, went to 2 Super Bowls (won 1 of them), won the greatest game ever played, ....and oh, yeah,...he invented the modern day QB position. As tough a guy as they come.

Technically never lost a Super Bowl either. He only play a quarter in 3.

[SilentHill]

I'm not going to get into this thread other than to let you know that if this is what you're basing your opinion on, you're basing your opinion on false information. The Patriots had ZERO tapes of opponents' walk-throughs. The tapes showed opposing coaches signaling in defensive plays from the sideline.

Usually these things work better when you follow the steps in this order:

1. Obtain facts.

2. Form an opinion.

Not:

1. Form an opinion.

2. Hope that facts back it up.

I'm not trying to be a jerk here, but this kind of thing really bothers me. If you know the facts and you have an opinion, awesome. If you don't, and your opinion is particularly critical, it makes you - or anyone, for that matter - look foolish.

Regardless they cheated. You can't argue that FACT. End of Story.

[Elmo]

Regardless they cheated. You can't argue that FACT. End of Story.

[stat2883]

I don't have a real strong opinion one way or another about spygate. When the news first hit, several defensive players (I remember Urlacher for sure) around the league were asked what they thought about having their signals stolen. None of them really felt it was a big advantage when you take into account the short amount of time between when you see the signal, communicate it to your staff on the field, relay the call into the QB, all before the link between the QB's helmet and the sideline automatically shuts off when the play clock hits 15 seconds.

On the other hand, lets not pretend the Patriots are the only team to have ever done this. They just happened to get caught because Mangini blew the whistle. Mangini himself said the tapes offer no significant advantage and shouldn't tarnish what the Patriots were able to accomplish. I guarantee you every team in the league has stooped to some shady tactics at one time or another to try and gain a competitive advantage over their opponent. I'd even say the same thing about this whole bounty gate scandal. The Saints are certainly not the first team to do this - they just happened to get caught. Did they take it farther than a lot of other teams? Yes. Is Gregg Williams the only coach to ever speak to his players like that? Of course not.

Back in the 70s when the Redskins/Cowboys rivalry was at its peak, Tom Landry suspected George Allen of renting out hotel rooms overlooking the Cowboys' practice field, so during the week of their game, Landry would book the top two floors of the hotels surrounding the field. Landry also believed that George Allen was having his players target Staubach to hurt him. Given today's technology, I have no doubt Allen would have tried videotaping whatever he could to gain an edge. In my opinion, its too narrow of a viewpoint to say so-and-so did this so they don't deserve what they won. Every team has something in their closet, just the media got a glimpse into the Saints and Patriots closets.

[ViriLudant]

When Brady had the great defenses he won. When they retired, he hasn't won since. Plus, Brady CHOKED on the Wes Welker pass.

John Unitas' Colts won 3 NFL championships, went to 2 Super Bowls (won 1 of them), won the greatest game ever played, ....and oh, yeah,...he invented the modern day QB position. As tough a guy as they come.

What are you even talking about?

That pass was catchable. Could it have been better? Yes. Was it catchable? Yes.

Unitas played in a completely different era where LBs were 220 pounds, linemen were 250, etc. Much different. Was Unitas great? Yep. I put him in the top 5 of all time.

[ViriLudant]

Regardless they cheated. You can't argue that FACT. End of Story.

According to YOUR coach and GM, Spygate wasn't significant whatsoever.

[SilentHill]

According to YOUR coach and GM, Spygate wasn't significant whatsoever.

I'm not sure what the Colts coaching / front office has to do with where I hold my own personal moral values.

The fact is that they cheated, It was significant enough to levy multiple lost draft picks, and a very hefty fine.

Whether you choose to ignore it or not that is your choice and everyone's choice. I'm sorry that I will not allow my morals to be swept under the rug, just because Brady is a "great" quarterback.

[Elmo]

I'm not sure what the Colts coaching / front office has to do with where I hold my own personal moral values.

The fact is that they cheated, It was significant enough to levy multiple lost draft picks, and a very hefty fine.

Whether you choose to ignore it or not that is your choice and everyone's choice. I'm sorry that I will not allow my morals to be swept under the rug, just because Brady is a "great" quarterback.

Morals? Lol. It's football. A game. Even if it wasn't right, there's no need to be bitter about it, no one else is. Are you still upset about the royal hiney-kickings the Pats gave the Colts in the early 2000's? Maybe the only reason they had the Colts' number is because they were cheating. lol.

[stat2883]

http://sameritech.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/indianapolis-colts-rca-dome-security-guard-says-team-does-cheat/

Let's put an asterisk next to every Colts' home game!

[SilentHill]

http://sameritech.wo...eam-does-cheat/

Let's put an asterisk next to every Colts' home game!

blasphemy!

A day after some unusual sounds were heard during the Colts-Patriots broadcast Sunday, the NFL issued a statement saying what sounded like simulated crowd noise at the RCA Dome was actually created by the CBS production crew, not the Colts.

[SilentHill]

Morals? Lol. It's football. A game. Even if it wasn't right, there's no need to be bitter about it, no one else is. Are you still upset about the royal hiney-kickings the Pats gave the Colts in the early 2000's? Maybe the only reason they had the Colts' number is because they were cheating. lol.

I'm actually not upset with the patriots, don't really care how many times they beat us, and i'm not being bitter. I'm being real,

Regardless of Brady's cheat / non cheat status, he is not the GOAT anyway so this topic should be void

[stat2883]

blasphemy!

A day after some unusual sounds were heard during the Colts-Patriots broadcast Sunday, the NFL issued a statement saying what sounded like simulated crowd noise at the RCA Dome was actually created by the CBS production crew, not the Colts.

But WBZ Photojournalist Bryan Foley says an RCA Dome security guard Benjamin Tully told him Sunday that the Colts do enhance the crowd noise.

I'm just playing Devil's Advocate here...its all good. These things always lead to good lively debate.

[Vance]

People are acting like the Patriots' defense hasn't been awful since about 2009.

Can we stop pretending to forget that Brady led a team with one of the worst defenses in NFL history all the way to the Super Bowl?

It wasn't the toughest road, but still. The dude threw for over 5,000 yards. Credit.

[BOTT]

the argument begins and ends with steve grogan

so you're saying bill is a bad azzz?