Patriots investigation (merge)

[Bad Morty]

Florio now in on the latest story http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/19/patriots-alerted-nfl-to-issue-with-special-teams-ball/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

 

Scott Miller, per the source, is the employee who was fired.  It’s unclear whether the termination arose solely from the incident during the AFC title game, or whether investigation by the league unearthed other evidence of Miller removing footballs from play and selling them on the side.  Predictably, the league declined PFT’s request for comment on Miller’s termination or the reasons for it.

So what does all of this mean?  As it relates to the question of whether footballs intentionally were deflated by the Patriots, nothing.  As it relates to whether the NFL will be able to generate sufficient proof of tampering, plenty.

As we gradually learn more about the manner in which footballs are handled, it’s becoming more clear that the NFL doesn’t secure footballs in the kind of way that would allow a presumptive finding that deflated footballs necessarily means a team employee intentionally deflated them.  Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.

Absent a confession or other smoking-gun evidence of tampering, the challenge for the NFL will be explaining this in a way that seems at least plausible to those inclined to believe the league office will simply brush the entire matter under the rug.

[GoPats]

There is no precedent, it's still crazy to me this is the first time the possibility ever came up in the history of the game knowing how many bad weather games are played each year. That being said, you would think if the Patriots were found to have done that, something has to be done to make the Colts "whole" despite the lopsided score. Grigson just said at his presser that they alerted the league BEFORE the game, maybe the league was just like "whatever" and didn't log the psi but then the interception kind of forced them to look at it at the half. Pagano said the idea the colts deflated one of the balls is "ludicrous".

 

I guess the complicated part with that would be other teams saying, "Well how about us?" Obviously the Ravens would be in the right to say that (if the Colts were somehow compensated). Plus it's not really fair to the other 30 teams to award one team extra picks or anything. They wouldn't have done anything wrong in that scenario and would be at a disadvantage by virtue of another team's compensation.

 

Interesting that Grigson and Pagano are being asked those questions... were they Boston reporters? LOL... 

[Superman]

Mod Note: 

Stop with the personal attacks

There are several here who could have warnings but letting it go this time. You know who you are.

 

Furthermore stop with the "why are you here" comments. Everyone is welcome here within the rules. Period.

 

If you can't reply to a post in a civil debating way then don't reply.  If you don't like someone skip over the post. It's not that hard.

 

Quoted for emphasis. 

[amfootball]

Florio now in on the latest story http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/19/patriots-alerted-nfl-to-issue-with-special-teams-ball/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

 

Scott Miller, per the source, is the employee who was fired.  It’s unclear whether the termination arose solely from the incident during the AFC title game, or whether investigation by the league unearthed other evidence of Miller removing footballs from play and selling them on the side.  Predictably, the league declined PFT’s request for comment on Miller’s termination or the reasons for it.

So what does all of this mean?  As it relates to the question of whether footballs intentionally were deflated by the Patriots, nothing.  As it relates to whether the NFL will be able to generate sufficient proof of tampering, plenty.

As we gradually learn more about the manner in which footballs are handled, it’s becoming more clear that the NFL doesn’t secure footballs in the kind of way that would allow a presumptive finding that deflated footballs necessarily means a team employee intentionally deflated them.  Apart from potential atmospheric conditions, too many people have too much access in too many different ways to the footballs to ever conclude that evidence of deflation is per se evidence of tampering.

Absent a confession or other smoking-gun evidence of tampering, the challenge for the NFL will be explaining this in a way that seems at least plausible to those inclined to believe the league office will simply brush the entire matter under the rug.

To the bolded - that is they key point in this whole thing. It is almost impossible to prove tampering without someone confessing or video evidence. On top of that you add in the way the balls are handled and this rogue official and Florio is right. This will most likely be nothing in the end.

[bababooey]

Tell me 1 thing Kraft has done since owning the team that could be classified as "slimey"

What he did to the city of Hartford...

[bababooey]

I guess the complicated part with that would be other teams saying, "Well how about us?" Obviously the Ravens would be in the right to say that (if the Colts were somehow compensated). Plus it's not really fair to the other 30 teams to award one team extra picks or anything. They wouldn't have done anything wrong in that scenario and would be at a disadvantage by virtue of another team's compensation.

 

Interesting that Grigson and Pagano are being asked those questions... were they Boston reporters? LOL... 

I know there are 30 other teams but the fact of the matter is it relates to the AFCCG against the Colts, that pick would still be a pick other teams wouldn't have anyway. Nothing is being investigated in the Ravens game so they wouldn't be in the right. Don't know who the reporters are since several are in town for the combine but even if it were Indy or Boston reporters, people want to know what's going on.

[amfootball]

I know there are 30 other teams but the fact of the matter is it relates to the AFCCG against the Colts, that pick would still be a pick other teams wouldn't have anyway. Nothing is being investigated in the Ravens game so they wouldn't be in the right. Don't know who the reporters are since several are in town for the combine but even if it were Indy or Boston reporters, people want to know what's going on.

The Pats camera man in 2007 was caught during the Jets game and the Jets never received anything from the Pats.

[bababooey]

The Pats camera man in 2007 was caught during the Jets game and the Jets never received anything from the Pats.

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

[Bad Morty]

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

I would recommend that they add 37 points to the Colts score in the game. That seems fair.

[amfootball]

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

Ball tampering has happened before. The Vikings did it just this year warming the balls on the sideline. I don't think it is that type of violation that would cost draft picks and certainly not one that would be given to another team.

[GoPats]

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

 

I don't know man, wouldn't hold your breath on that one. 

[Ant Ave]

Can we all get away from one aspect of these discussions? 

 

If draft picks are taken away from an NFL team as part of a penalty/punishment, they are never "awarded" to another team. Even if the Patriots are found 100% guilty, the Colts will not just be given what would have been NE's first rounder (or any other pick).  

 

At least there is no precedent for it. Teams have "traded" picks with other teams to sign coaches who were under contract or whatnot, but that's a different situation. 

 Actually there is precident for one teams draft picks being awarded to another -  usually it involves some type of player tampering .

 

If either team is ultimately found to have tampered with a football ... my guess is though highly doubtful -the league might  take the drastic step of exchanging picks .

 

At this point though I'm pretty sure we all know this will likely end without any conclusive findings ...just too muddled .

[ViriLudant]

the statute of limitations on spygate doesnt run out when the same GM and head coach are still there. simple as that.

Except that all this proves is that people are ignorant about what Spygate actually was.

[JerodMayo51]

What he did to the city of Hartford...

keeping the team in Boston where it belongs is slimey?

[Bad Morty]

^{This part of Florio's article is interesting:}

 

 

^{In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.}

 

^{In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.}

 

^{If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?}

 

[ViriLudant]

keeping the team in Boston where it belongs is slimey?

What you do not understand is that building a stadium from your own pocket is more slimy than building one on the tax payers' back.

[bababooey]

keeping the team in Boston where it belongs is slimey?

That is NOT how it went down at all and you know it.

[bababooey]

What you do not understand is that building a stadium from your own pocket is more slimy than building one on the tax payers' back.

Of course all the revenue from the team and stadium would alleviate the tax burden on the state's residents....

[ViriLudant]

Of course all the revenue from the team and stadium would alleviate the tax burden on the state's residents....

Yet building one from one's own pocket still provides that revenue , yes?

[dw49]

keeping the team in Boston where it belongs is slimey?

 

 

Hiding from being called out on your statement that the maximum punishment is 20 K ? 

[amfootball]

^{This part of Florio's article is interesting:}

 

 

^{In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.}

 

^{In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.}

 

^{If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?}

 

What has happened is Kraft has gone on the offensive here. He is hanging the league out to dry on this one ... big time.

[RedHJedi]

 

^{If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?}

 

 

If this is true, why wasn't it brought up by BB or BK in their respective press conferences? Seems that bringing up this would have immediately helped their case...so why not bring it up? 

[JerodMayo51]

^{This part of Florio's article is interesting:}

^{In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play. After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped. So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.}

^{In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.}

^{If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?}

20k, 25k.. you're cherry picking. The point is the fine is defined in the rulebook and there were 2 other cases this year alone for ball tampering, and I'm pretty sure they just got told to stop doing it.

So this idea that the Pats would lose an insanely valuable 1st round pick over this is so far out of left field it's comical

[Bad Morty]

What has happened is Kraft has gone on the offensive here. He is hanging the league out to dry on this one ... big time.

 

Again - from his perspective, he probably saw a long time good employee in McNally getting his life turned upside down for a day and a half because of the irresponsible reporting by Kelly Naqi. So I'm sure he felt he had no choice but to put this story out there to Schefter in order to protect that guy...and good for him for doing that.

[amfootball]

Again - from his perspective, he probably saw a long time good employee in McNally getting his life turned upside down for a day and a half because of the irresponsible reporting by Kelly Naqi. So I'm sure he felt he had no choice but to put this story out there to Schefter in order to protect that guy...and good for him for doing that.

Yes the turn around was like lightning less than 24 hours. OTL was in the middle of their report when Schefty broke in with his news. Kraft is not playing around on this one.

[bababooey]

Yet building one from one's own pocket still provides that revenue , yes?

Missing the point completely so i'll stop feeding the troll.

[Bad Morty]

Yes the turn around was like lightning less than 24 hours. OTL was in the middle of their report when Schefty broke in with his news. Kraft is not playing around on this one.

 

And again - I have to applaud the guy in this case. McNally would have had to go into hiding if that ridiculous story had been allowed to stand for several days. I'm sure he's willing to keep quiet about sensitive matters (someone DID lose their job after all), but you have to protect your own. What an ugly mess this is. Is there any doubt left that somebody/bodies have a SERIOUS agenda to slander this team by any means they can find, and ESPN seems to be a more than willing accomplice to this.

[Gramz]

 

[Bad Morty]

If this is true, why wasn't it brought up by BB or BK in their respective press conferences? Seems that bringing up this would have immediately helped their case...so why not bring it up? 

Is it possible they weren't aware of any of this? It sounds like this Scott Miller guy was just recently fired, and I'm certain the Pats wouldn't have had any idea who this guy was to begin with, let alone be aware of the fact that he had a pattern of stealing game balls. So at the time, it might just have seemed like an irrelevant side note to the story of the game balls being deflated...it was a kicking ball that was misplaced for an extra point, then replaced...end of story.

[ViriLudant]

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

[Gramz]

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

Viri ~  It seems nothing is adding up correctly anywhere these days.  

 

The story just gets crazier as the days go by.

[ColtsBlueFL]

^{This part of Florio's article is interesting:}

 

 

^{In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball.}

 

^{In-stadium video, according to the source, shows Miller later bringing the ball back toward the playing area.}

 

^{If this is to be believed, then we have the Patriots noticing something amiss with the balls and then notifying officials about it...does it make sense for a team that had supposedly deflated 11 of 12 balls after the refs had approved them to go out of their way to bring attention to something being out of whack with the game balls?}

 

 

That statement and this below screams a disinformation and maybe even Tomfoolery in the info leakage department.

 

"It’s not unusual for footballs to be removed from play for later sale in support of charitable endeavors.  Typically, however, the teams are informed of the fact that footballs will be removed — especially when the “K” balls will be taken out of service.  If the team is told that a “K” ball will be removed, the equipment staff prepares multiple “K” balls for use in the game during the limited time teams have to get the new, out-of-the-box footballs ready for use."

 

Hogwash!!  So, every game 8 factory fresh K balls are delivered to the Official Referee's hotel room direct from Wilson the evening before the game. They arrive wrapped in tape marked with a “W,” preventing any pre-game tampering. This official guards it and does not allow the boxes to be opened any sooner than the arrival at the game. They are closely guarded and finally opened up 2 hours and 15 minutes before the game and pressurized and marked.

 

"The official hands the K balls off to a designated member of each organization, who is the only person with the opportunity to rub down the football. For the San Diego Chargers, a member of the equipment staff handles the responsibilities and can be spotted on the field wearing a K-vest.

Under the official’s observation, the K ball handler has only 45 minutes to “touch up” the balls by waxing it with a wet towel or a horse-hair brush to make it less slippery."

 

Video of this is in second half of Peter Kings Video here-

 

http://mmqb.si.com/2015/01/22/deflategate-video-how-nfl-officials-check-game-ball-pressure/

 

So here's the    B.  S.   at play quoted above fostered by Florio-

 

Re-quote from above-

 

"In this specific case, the Patriots weren’t told that the ball marked K1 would be removed from play.  After the Patriots scored the first touchdown of the game, the Patriots noticed on the extra-point attempt that the ball had not been prepped the same way that K1 had been prepped.  So the Patriots raised the issue with the game officials, and the process commenced of trying to track down the K1 ball."

 

 

But the rules state this protocol is to be followed-

 

 

*Kickoff begins with using ball number one and continues to be in play until it is no longer an option. Once unavailable, ball number two is brought into play and the cycle continues throughout the game.*

 

 

If K1 goes missing for any reason, K2 should be ready to roll.  and the others behind it.  No need to hunt down k1, nor put in a non approved ball.  But it is reported kickers notice when K2 is brought in and thus statements like below are heard-

 

“Once you get the first ball, you just get used to it,” Wick said. “If that ball gets kicked into the stands or if the opposing team gets a turnover and keeps the ball on the sidelines, the kickers are going to want to get that ball back.”

 

This new baloney about Pat's not being warned about K1 being out of service or not having K2 ready (and K3 - K8 too!) is not serving anybody any good.  All these strict rules about the game and K balls before the game and nobody seems to know what the heck is going on out there once those guarded game and K balls get delivered to the sidelines.  It's a sham of finger pointing and coverup.  I hope wells doesn't sweep it under the rug and sugarcoat the final results.  Again, we cannot take what these folks are leaking to heart.  They go against rules and protocols and make everyone look like an extreme doofus.

 

EDIT: Especially how diligently they are with them pre-game.  SMH....

[amfootball]

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

This also contradicts Blandino's statement that the NFL did not know about concerns regarding the footballs until the second quarter and makes this look more like a sting operation ...

[Bad Morty]

This also contradicts Blandino's statement that the NFL did not know about concerns regarding the footballs until the second quarter and makes this look more like a sting operation ...

 

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

[JerodMayo51]

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

 

Dunn Dunnn Dunnnnnn!!!

[ColtsBlueFL]

Bad Morty, on 19 Feb 2015 - 8:14 PM, said:

Superbowl week:

 

Dean Blandino, the NFL’s head of officiating, finally spoke publicly on Thursday for the first time since the Patriots’ “Deflategate” incident broke two weeks ago.And while he was hamstrung because of the NFL’s investigation led by attorney Ted Wells, Blandino stated that the officials did everything properly before the AFC Championship game, that the Colts had footballs tested at halftime along with the Patriots, that the NFL will discuss logging the results of each ball test in the future, and, to his knowledge, this was not a “sting” operation by the Colts and the NFL. “The issue came up during the first half, as far as I know,” Blandino said at a news conference. “There was an issue that was brought up during the first half, a football came into question, and then the decision was made to test them at halftime. There’s an investigation going on, can’t really get into specifics.”

Today:

General manager Ryan Grigson said Thursday that the Colts had contacted NFL officials before last month's AFC championship game about their concerns with New England's game balls.

 

Dunn Dunnn Dunnnnnn!!!

 

Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you....   ;-)

 

Yet in the same breath I find no pristine aura or halo surrounding the Patriot brand.  Wonder if there is a connection....   : ^ )

[Detectacon]

IMO they are setting this dude up as the fall guy in case there is more to the story.

⬆️This!

[dw49]

So Grigson knew about the deflated ball issue before the AFCCG , but Pagano somehow DIDN'T?!?!

Something doesn't add up in Indy.

http://blog.masslive.com/patriots/2015/02/chuck_pagano_its_ludicrous_to.html

 

 

There was talk that this all originated with Baltimore. It's possible someone from that organization notified Grigson and he notified the league. In any event , I do think Pagano embellished a bit with that statement. He probably wished he had said that he wasn't concerned with the deflated ball issue. It's obvious that Grigson did go to the league before that game and the Colts just didn't by chance notice the deflated ball. Grigson no doubt told the staff to look for deflated footballs. To think Pagano was left out of this is not believable. But is it a real issue in the investigation ? Hard to say that it is.

 

So what's going on ? Who the heck knows. If I had to guess , I would say that Grigson alerted the NFL the week before as he now says. Crazy for him to lie about that. From the info we are betting from Blandino and put that into perspective with what Grigson said , I come to the conclusion that the league didn't take the complaint seriously or they are just plain *s. Assuming Grigson is not insane (he never alerted the NFL), how else do you explain the officials not charting what the PSI's of the 24 balls were at the pre game time inspection ? I do think it will all make a little more sense when the report comes out. 

[Gramz]

There are so many stories and variations floating around out there.  

 

Take your pick.  If you search enough  you're sure to find a report or story that fits what you think, or what you want to think,  what you know, or what you think you know.   

[da_pats_troll]

Correct - I did say that would be unprecedented but you would think in a championship game the other team has to be made whole somehow.

 

I think thats a slippery slope indeed. If on one incident, the team that was making the complaint was rewarded with something..draft position switch, draft picks..something along that line, the league would go to heck in a hand basket really fast.

 

Every time something happened, whether real or perceived, teams would be clamoring for compensation, and fans would be right behind them. How come we only got their 3rd round pick for this, when team X got a 2nd for that!!

 

It would be a mess.