Don't Be Too Upset With Irsay, Manning Is Still Not Healthy.

[coltsblue1844]

Ummm Can he do it 40 times in 30 minutes?

unless he is going to throw 80 passes in a game, the more important question is can he do it 40 times in 60 minutes

[coltsblue1844]

also, to the people who doubt that he's healthy or that he will play again...

Several sources have told Mort that the last week he spent at Duke, he threw in full pads and LOTS of passes for 5 consecutive days, and still "looked as good as ever" even on the 5th day.

Chris Carter has nothing to gain by not being honest, and he said that someone very close to him was actually there, and said that Peyton looks as good as he ever has.

When he said he's getting very close, but still has some work to do...it doesnt mean that he isnt healthy or that the nerve hasnt regenerated...if any of you have ever been into weight lifting, you would realize that after a long layoff, you have to rebuild your strength, and it doesnt happen over night...although, thanks to "muscle memory", it does happen faster for someone who has been in good shape for such a long time.

I think Peyton really did want to stay in Indy, and the only thing that swayed him to leave is that Irsay most likely told him the plans to let all of the vets walk/cut them, and then he agreed that it was probably in everyone's best interest to part ways, however much it may have hurt both parties.

Everyone wants someone to "blame", but as a huge Peyton Manning fan, and a long time Colts fan...as much as i HATE seeing the whole team broken up, i agree that its best for both sides...and i do not believe that either side has alterior motives, like so many seem to think. Peyton is not some greedy money hungry guy, and Irsay didnt run anyone out of town. Had we not had such a bad season last year and ended up with the #1 pick, i'm sure that everyone wouldve been brought back, for the most part...but the fact is that we DID have such a bad season, and a clean break is probably the fastest way to rebuild and gain salary cap flexibility that will be needed.

everyone needs to relax, there is no reason to vilify anyone here and no reason to dislike any of them, either.

[presto123]

unless he is going to throw 80 passes in a game, the more important question is can he do it 40 times in 60 minutes

He still has to throw endless repetitions during the week as he is all about timing routes.

[smittywerb]

Throwing in practice doing practice drills is a lot different from full practice and game time speed. I'm gonna stick to what I saw off the vid and say he isn't quite fully healthy yet.

Plus, the last time PLAYERS and COACHES told us something about Peyton's health, they sad that he was going to be able to play the first game of last season! I think I'm going to wait for the doctor to actually say Peyton is healthy.

[coltsblue1844]

He still has to throw endless repetitions during the week as he is all about timing routes.

thats why the reports from MULTIPLE people said that he did just that...threw extensively for 5 straight days at Duke, and looked like the Peyton everyone remembers...and looked just as good on day 5 as day 1...thats more throwing that he will do during any week in the regular season, as they have more off days then...so when you consider that this is only March and that he has several months to keep working...and considering strength and timing is all he really has to get better at, then he is going to be fine...anyone who says otherwise on this board, is likely just trying to make themselves feel better about his release.

[BIGugly]

unless he is going to throw 80 passes in a game, the more important question is can he do it 40 times in 60 minutes

ummm I believe usual time of possession is split close to 30 minutes apiece, generally speaking. maybe 25-35, but that's not usual.

[jwilli69]

I wouldn't sign him without some kind of termination clause if he's not 100% full strength by the start of preseason IMO. Some team is going to feel really stupid if the give him a boatload of cash in terms of his contract and guaranteed money if he don't fully recover before the season.

I think Manning stated he would put in a no risk clause in his contract to a team wanting him. Only the Raiders would be stupid enough to sign him because his name is Manning without having some sense that he will be able to play the game at a high enough level using guaranteed money and I am not 100% certain of that since the gambler is dead now.

I'd be willing to bet he gets back to close to as good as he could have been before the injury. There are stories all about the media regarding how well he is and isn't passing. Maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think Peyton would carry on about how well he feels, and how he intends to be back on the field productive if he wasn't there or didn't think he can get there (that was a long sentence).

What I do believe is that PM is trying to will his way back and working as hard at it as he can to get back. The one person who I would believe in handing out a contract too without seeing him throw is PM because I honestly believe he is such a steward of the game that he would not tarnish his namesake and ask a team to sign him knowing he could not throw the ball at the NFL level. He is not a Corey Simon who knew he was damaged and milked the Colts out of oodles of cash knowing his playing days were over. I think that is why a lot of teams don't need to see PM throw, they trust his opinion of where he is in his NFL game plus I honestly believe that you will see a contract that will have risk protection built into in by whoever sees him and it will probably be at PM insistance. He is that kinda guy IMHO.

I agree with you I just posted in aother thread that I think Manning's health is still a real issue because of the following:

1. Manning said himself he still has work to do in regards to his health. Manning would say this about his game needing more 3 years ago. Always striving to become perfect. If he was @99%, I think you would hear him saying this.

2. If he was fine I think the Manning camp would have produced a better video than the very grainy four passes video that they produced. That tape was certainly an odd deal. I would think though that Manning would have more tape on himself in his rehab if ruth be told.

3. He doesn't want passing a physical to be a part of his new contract with his new team. I have never seen this reported anywhere that he doesn't want to have to pass a physical. Maybe he did but I have never seen a link to any story on that, you got one?

4. He wont throw for his new team before he signs with them (although the CBA could prevent that I am not sure what the rules are since he is no longer on a team.) Again, never saw an article stating he would not throw for anyone until after he signs. This has to be interpretation of articles but I never have seen a quote PM has said that.

5. Clayton said Manning needs more time to keep getting healthy. Probably does

It could very well be he has more time and finishes his rehab and is just fine. However, it could be the rehab doesn't go the way he hopes. He might very well reach a point where the nerve in his arm just stops coming back, doctors have said you never know when, however, or if a nerve will come back. He could also suffer a set back we don't know. I do think if he can't play though it's going to take getting out on a field in training camp or a pre-season game to make him understand that.

If he can't play though Irsay is going to look like one of the smartest people in the NFL. He will have clearly made the right call and he'll be able to bring Peyton back this season to honor him and let him go out right for the fans which I think will do a lot to heal some of what has happened this past week.

I think it's 50/50 either way right now on Peyton's health. His neck is good to go but I think his arm has some real questions about it and no one knows those answers we just have to wait and see.

The neck is resolved and who knows what the nerve will do. It does appear from most reports though that he has better strength than he is given credit for right now. Will he have the stamina of a full game and a full season?

So what part of Manning saying that he "still has work to do" at his farewell press conference didn't you understand?

To me, "still has work to do" means just that and that he's not totally healthy.

Manning always says he has more work to do to improve this or that. Manning is a perfectionist and as far as the injury, I don't think anyone is disputing that PM has some way to go before he is 100% his old self. May never be and that is why he isn't a $35 mil dollar richer man from the Colts today.

[SilentHill]

Your joking right, you still believe he's not healthy? Open your eyes, to think this is almost as bad to think Mr. Irsay really tried to work out a deal to keep him. Come on!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You need help. Seriously.... When the guy himself says he's not 100% and you don't believe him..... CMON MAN!

[SilentHill]

thats why the reports from MULTIPLE people said that he did just that...threw extensively for 5 straight days at Duke, and looked like the Peyton everyone remembers...and looked just as good on day 5 as day 1...thats more throwing that he will do during any week in the regular season, as they have more off days then...so when you consider that this is only March and that he has several months to keep working...and considering strength and timing is all he really has to get better at, then he is going to be fine...anyone who says otherwise on this board, is likely just trying to make themselves feel better about his release.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[BlueRedZone]

I wouldn't sign him without some kind of termination clause if he's not 100% full strength by the start of preseason IMO. Some team is going to feel really stupid if the give him a boatload of cash in terms of his contract and guaranteed money if he don't fully recover before the season.

There is no way that Peyton would sign that deal. I don't think the cash is as much of an object as going to a team that can compete for a superbowl

[coltsblue1844]

I'll believe it when I see it.

well that's convenient, because you'll see him do it...it will just be a different team that he's winning games for

[coltsblue1844]

ummm I believe usual time of possession is split close to 30 minutes apiece, generally speaking. maybe 25-35, but that's not usual.

yes, it is usually split...but the game lasts 60 minutes, and one team doesnt have all of their possessions in the first 30 minutes and then let the other team have all of theirs in the other 30 minutes...so like i said, all of those throws are spread out over the course of 60 minutes. Got it now?

[Jaric]

i am just wondering if there will be any evidence that he can actually play before someone hands him a boatload of cash. that 'leaked' 27 second grainy video ain't enough

I heard on NFLN he doesn't plan to throw for any of these teams looking to give him money.

Which is something I find so bizarre I question how truthful it is.

[DILLIGAFER]

So after all the backlash at the front office and owner Jim Irsay lately for letting Manning go, I have to admit I thought it was wrong. What amazes me is this. None of the analysts are paying much attention to his health, it's almost as they are trying to pass Manning off to the media and other teams as 100% healthy and ready to play football.

FWIW I still haven't seen anything saying the nerve has regenerated, I haven't seen anything that shows me that he can even return to the NFL QB level. Today I was giving it some thought, and I do remember something about Irsay saying that he would keep Manning if healthy. What if the real issue behind all of this is that Manning can't play football?

Just food for thought since everyone and their mother is talking about the pre-injured Peyton Manning going to play football at other teams, but that is not even remotely the case.

What is everyone's opinion?

I love all these doc on the forum and completley buy into the media. So, you are Mannings personal doctor and you were with Tom Moore when he was at Duke?

I dont think you were. So, you actually really dont know for sure. 100% you dont know. You crack me up with the lying like you really know for sure. Get real.

[DILLIGAFER]

You need help. Seriously.... When the guy himself says he's not 100% and you don't believe him..... CMON MAN!

There you go again. Manning NEVER said he 'wasnt 100%' and you know it. You twisted his words when he stated, 'there are some things i need to work on'. Manning has ALWAYS said that. If you come back and say, ' but thats what he ment' , i may just jump through this computer.

[shakedownstreet]

I love all these doc on the forum and completley buy into the media. So, you are Mannings personal doctor and you were with Tom Moore when he was at Duke?

I dont think you were. So, you actually really dont know for sure. 100% you dont know. You crack me up with the lying like you really know for sure. Get real.

he's just speculating based on actual info available. some will see the cup half full & some will see it as half empty & there's nothing wrong with either.

but the people who say he is 100% or will never play again are the ones who are wrong because they really don't know

[subvet]

It's been said before but Manning at 80% is still better than most others.

That may be enough.

[Jaric]

Personally, I couldn't gather anything from that Duke footage other than "well he can throw the ball."

But I couldn't gather anything about accuracy or velocity or anything that would indicate how well the arm is going.

I still have to assume any contract he signs will be preceded by some kind of demonstration that these teams aren't throwing both money and their future away.

[WoolMagnet]

What is a reason other than how far and hard he can throw?

Ticket sales and "excitement".

[achcolts]

Even if he can throw a mile, will his 1st NFL hit in 1 1/2 years feel like being hit by a semi and can he recover from it

this has been addressed months ago. peyton can take a hit and has teh same injury risk as if he was never injured to begin with.

[UndecidedFrog]

It's been said before but Manning at 80% is still better than most others.

That may be enough.

I think PM at 20% is equivalent to Tebow.

[UndecidedFrog]

Personally, I couldn't gather anything from that Duke footage other than "well he can throw the ball."

But I couldn't gather anything about accuracy or velocity or anything that would indicate how well the arm is going.

I still have to assume any contract he signs will be preceded by some kind of demonstration that these teams aren't throwing both money and their future away.

Yes. Furthermore, from the video of 4 throws, we have no knowledge if he can sustain throwing for an entire practice session or a game.

I pity the team that doesn't do their due diligence before paying PM.

[dgambill]

Personally, I couldn't gather anything from that Duke footage other than "well he can throw the ball."

But I couldn't gather anything about accuracy or velocity or anything that would indicate how well the arm is going.

I still have to assume any contract he signs will be preceded by some kind of demonstration that these teams aren't throwing both money and their future away.

Not trying to stir up contravercy but seeing those throws tells me A LOT. Those were 4 scripted NFL routes ran. Those were 4 perfect balls thrown by Peyton. Just because you couldn't tell from that film doesn't mean someone like myself or even an NFL caliber scout couldn't take away that he was throwing the ball very very well with good velocity. Lets just get this straight. He spent 5 days throwing to NFL receivers with NFL evaluators that ALL have reported that he looked really really good. He may not be 100% but he wasn't 100% the last 3 years when he had neck problems. See people act like he is just now battling injury. He has been battling arm problems for the last 3 years and look at what he accomplished. Why a couple years ago did he say he was going to throw less in practice and take less reps to keep his arm strong? Peyton may not be 100% yet but he still has the ability to play in the NFL. 80% of his game is between his ears. He never had a rocket arm or was the best athlete. That is not what made him great and isn't what he will need the most to be great again in the NFL. He showed he can make the most difficult passes on that tape. Now you know he can throw the ball...and that is only set to get better as he gets back into shape. The rest...was all in his head to begin with and that will never change. He will have a great season baring some fluke injury/new team issues.

[jemack]

this has been addressed months ago. peyton can take a hit and has teh same injury risk as if he was never injured to begin with.

Where have you been? Taking a hit is not the issue. It's all about throwing ability and arm strength and gripping the ball and arm durability at this point. His actual neck is probably stronger now than it was before the four procedures.

Where have I been? I'm not talking about his neck, otherwise I would have mentioned his neck. See? I'm talking about a 35 year old whose body hasn't seen game action in a year and a half. Sorry I didn't make myself clearer

You missed the boat... and the point

[GoColts8818]

There you go again. Manning NEVER said he 'wasnt 100%' and you know it. You twisted his words when he stated, 'there are some things i need to work on'. Manning has ALWAYS said that. If you come back and say, ' but thats what he ment' , i may just jump through this computer.

When asked about his health at tbe pressercwhen he was leaving he said I still have work to do. That's about as close as you can get to saying I am still not healthy as you can get. He wasn't talking about just wanting to be a better player he was talking about his which is how most people including the pepole who get paid to cover this took it because that is what he was saying. If you don't want to believe it fine but there are still real questions about his arm strength. With that he could very well rehab and be just fine.

[vitoaf27]

Mortenson, has said Peyton is throwing "very well"...

This whole ordeal was nothing but a PR battle. And Petyon won, but... who really won? Manning and the Colts won. Both wanted a split. Don't kid yourselves. Manning could be a Colt if "he wanted" But he does not.

Irsay will/has gotten hit with the brunt of the backlash but I guarantee you all... Manning wanted out he door long before Jimbo ever mentioned it. His contract made it clear.

Manning is an Alpha male.... and he is a master PR man. Now all he has to live up to are "expectations". From another city......

No, my assumption is that Manning could've and would've stayed if he wanted to, but the only reason he didn't want to is because Irsay probably informed him that the team was going to cut those players, trade Freeney, not resign Wayne, and that Saturday would likely retire. I firmly believe if Clark, Addai, Freeney, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne, and Brackett were back, Manning would also be back. It's just not the way the team wanted to go, and Manning didn't want to be here with only him and Mathis remaining from the glory days.

[BIGugly]

yes, it is usually split...but the game lasts 60 minutes, and one team doesnt have all of their possessions in the first 30 minutes and then let the other team have all of theirs in the other 30 minutes...so like i said, all of those throws are spread out over the course of 60 minutes. Got it now?

Doesn't equate to 80 throws, now, does it?

[UndecidedFrog]

I firmly believe if Clark, Addai, Freeney, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne, and Brackett were back, Manning would also be back. It's just not the way the team wanted to go, and Manning didn't want to be here with only him and Mathis remaining from the glory days.

I don't think it is a question of what way the team wants to go.

From my analysis of the salary cap situation for 2012, the team could not have Clark, Addai, Freeney, Mathis, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne and PM back. Their 2012 cap hit would be about $77MM (assume Garcon at $6MM, and Wayne at $9MM, and Saturday at $5MM), and represent 64% of the total team cap. Add it the rest of the current roster, and we would be about $8MM over the cap.

[SilentHill]

I love all these doc on the forum and completley buy into the media. So, you are Mannings personal doctor and you were with Tom Moore when he was at Duke?

I dont think you were. So, you actually really dont know for sure. 100% you dont know. You crack me up with the lying like you really know for sure. Get real.

Lol ur such a TROLL U know manning has said he's not 100% right? LOL

[SilentHill]

There you go again. Manning NEVER said he 'wasnt 100%' and you know it. You twisted his words when he stated, 'there are some things i need to work on'. Manning has ALWAYS said that. If you come back and say, ' but thats what he ment' , i may just jump through this computer.

It is what he meant. Why wouldn't you come out and say your 100% and ready to play football if you were? When asked a direct question about his health he said "I still have some work to do" I'm not sure how that wouldn't be equal to he is not 100%. LOL Your love for Manning concerns and confuses me.

[The Fish]

I don't think it is a question of what way the team wants to go.

From my analysis of the salary cap situation for 2012, the team could not have Clark, Addai, Freeney, Mathis, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne and PM back. Their 2012 cap hit would be about $77MM (assume Garcon at $6MM, and Wayne at $9MM, and Saturday at $5MM), and represent 64% of the total team cap. Add it the rest of the current roster, and we would be about $8MM over the cap.

Just out of curiosity, because I'm basically completely ignorant about the cap, why wasn't dumping Peyton's contract not enough to allow us to keep a few of these other guys?

[UndecidedFrog]

Just out of curiosity, because I'm basically completely ignorant about the cap, why wasn't dumping Peyton's contract not enough to allow us to keep a few of these other guys?

Dumping PM's contract helped save $6.6MM to the 2012 cap, due to the timing of the dump (pre June 1) and the dead cap space of $10.4MM ($16MM of unamortized bonus -$5.6MM of amortized option bonus credited back). If the team paid the option bonus, and kept PM the 2012 cap hit would have been $17MM.

So, the savings to the 2012 cap is calculated as follows: $17 -$10.4 = $6.6

Yes, the team could have afforded to keep Clark, Addai, Brackett, Bullitt, Painter.

However, they made a decision to cut these players, because their performance did not match their cap space allocations:

Clark 2012 cap space allocation = $7.32MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $8.12MM

Addai 2012 cap space allocation = $4.76MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $4.93MM

Brackett 2012 cap space allocation = $7.4MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $9MM; 2014 cap space allocation = $9MM

Bullitt 2012 cap space allocation = $3.735MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $3.735MM

Painter 2012 cap space allocation = $0.5878MM

[The Fish]

Polian basically overpaid "name" players and didn't bolster the bottom half of the roster properly and now we start over.

I think that it's going to be tough to replace Clark and Wayne's production, given that it won't be Painter chuckin it around next season. I get it, but its looking like were cool with a 4 win season next year. Yippee.

[UndecidedFrog]

Polian basically overpaid "name" players and didn't bolster the bottom half of the roster properly and now we start over.

I think that it's going to be tough to replace Clark and Wayne's production, given that it won't be Painter chuckin it around next season. I get it, but its looking like were cool with a 4 win season next year. Yippee.

Yes, that was my conclusion as well. EIther BP or CP, or both, did not do a good job managing the eventual transitions between older and younger players. And we are paying the price for that mismanagement now.

[coltsblue1844]

Doesn't equate to 80 throws, now, does it?

and it doesnt equate to 40 throws in a 30 minutes, either....it would be SIXTY minutes.

So yes, like i said, if you want to make it 40 throws in 30 minutes, which is HALF a game....then that would most definitely equate to 80 throws in a 60 minute game. The math isnt that complicated

[jemack]

I don't think it is a question of what way the team wants to go.

From my analysis of the salary cap situation for 2012, the team could not have Clark, Addai, Freeney, Mathis, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne and PM back. Their 2012 cap hit would be about $77MM (assume Garcon at $6MM, and Wayne at $9MM, and Saturday at $5MM), and represent 64% of the total team cap. Add it the rest of the current roster, and we would be about $8MM over the cap.

Not with the 28 mill looming. But he would have negotiated

[UndecidedFrog]

Not with the 28 mill looming. But he would have negotiated

I don't know what either Irsay or PM would have negotiated, or if either was willing to negotiate.

Somehow, I think the mutual decision to separate had to do with more than monetary and cap issues.

[BIGugly]

and it doesnt equate to 40 throws in a 30 minutes, either....it would be SIXTY minutes.

So yes, like i said, if you want to make it 40 throws in 30 minutes, which is HALF a game....then that would most definitely equate to 80 throws in a 60 minute game. The math isnt that complicated

OK, once more, real slow. Paying attention?

Offense will prolly have the ball for 30 minutes of PLAYING TIME. Prolly throw about 40 passes. Got it????? Not gonna throw any passes during 30 minutes defense is on the field. Unless he wants to stay loose on the sideline...

Don't know sign language, French, German, or Polish. Can't draw you a picture...sorry.

[jemack]

I don't think it is a question of what way the team wants to go.

From my analysis of the salary cap situation for 2012, the team could not have Clark, Addai, Freeney, Mathis, Saturday, Garcon, Wayne and PM back. Their 2012 cap hit would be about $77MM (assume Garcon at $6MM, and Wayne at $9MM, and Saturday at $5MM), and represent 64% of the total team cap. Add it the rest of the current roster, and we would be about $8MM over the cap.

Dumping PM's contract helped save $6.6MM to the 2012 cap, due to the timing of the dump (pre June 1) and the dead cap space of $10.4MM ($16MM of unamortized bonus -$5.6MM of amortized option bonus credited back). If the team paid the option bonus, and kept PM the 2012 cap hit would have been $17MM.

So, the savings to the 2012 cap is calculated as follows: $17 -$10.4 = $6.6

Yes, the team could have afforded to keep Clark, Addai, Brackett, Bullitt, Painter.

However, they made a decision to cut these players, because their performance did not match their cap space allocations:

Clark 2012 cap space allocation = $7.32MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $8.12MM

Addai 2012 cap space allocation = $4.76MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $4.93MM

Brackett 2012 cap space allocation = $7.4MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $9MM; 2014 cap space allocation = $9MM

Bullitt 2012 cap space allocation = $3.735MM; 2013 cap space allocation = $3.735MM

Painter 2012 cap space allocation = $0.5878MM

Yes, that was my conclusion as well. EIther BP or CP, or both, did not do a good job managing the eventual transitions between older and younger players. And we are paying the price for that mismanagement now.

Not with the 28 mill looming. But he would have negotiated

I don't know what either Irsay or PM would have negotiated, or if either was willing to negotiate.

Somehow, I think the mutual decision to separate had to do with more than monetary and cap issues.

HuH?

[BIGugly]

Undecided Frog has it just about right. Prolly one reason why Polian was the first to go. Put us in cap situation with players not worth their later year's salaries and cap hits. Productivity of all of them off the last 2 years. A lot of that has to go to Caldwell's inability to successfully motivate any of them, also.