NFL adopts new Anthem policy

[csmopar]

6 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

As a Historian I do and resent the childish name calling bu you and Cynjin

and as a current, serving Army Battalion military legal historian, I can tell you that you are dead wrong.

5 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

LOL, God bless and thanks for your service.

No thanks is needed my friend. Please don't thank me, thank those in Arlington that have truly served. 

[Cynjin]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

well there's the pot calling the kettle black

 

No, see I understand the point you were making, its just it had little to do with what I posted.

[csmopar]

6 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

No they are exactly the same thing, just to different degrees.  Rosa Parks "sat down" to make a point and to try to enact change.  Kaep "knelt down" to make a point and to try to enact change.  No we are not back in the 60's but unfortunately some people prefer to pretend we're still living there. 

I am curious, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing but how do you come to the conclusion/connection between Rosa Parks and the anthem protests?

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

and as a current serving Army Battalion military legal historian, I can tell you that you are dead wrong.

No thanks is needed my friend. Please don't thank me, thank those in Arlington that have truly served. 

Thanks for your service

 

 

 

   But I hate when people tell me what I know and don’t know because I used the exact words from my Mother and Grandmother who lived the event and suffered multiple years of a loved one overseas

[Cynjin]

2 minutes ago, csmopar said:

and as a current serving Army Battalion military legal historian, I can tell you that you are dead wrong.

No thanks is needed my friend. Please don't thank me, thank those in Arlington that have truly served. 

 

Believe me, I have been there several times and have thanked them and said a prayer, a very solemn place.

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

No, see I understand the point you were making, its just it had little to do with what I posted.

 

well that's your problem too...I understand the point you were making.  My counter point is that trying to do the nice thing and respecting everyone's delicate opinions doesn't always get your point across.  Sometimes it takes more drastic measures and upsetting the balance...questioning societal norms...to get your point across.  I don't buy for a second that kneeling for the anthem was Kaepernick's first step in his pursuit of change.  Perhaps he tried going to local law enforcement, even state law enforcement, town hall, writing to congress etc etc etc.  When none of those channels worked, he chose a more drastic measure. Something that couldn't be ignored or swept under the rug.  Something that people would HAVE to notice.  

 

Maybe if people would stop worrying about their butt hurt feelings and trying to find out what he and others are truly protesting against rather than worrying about their form of protest, then that could also lead to quicker change.

[Jason_]

4 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I am curious, I'm not disagreeing or agreeing but how do you come to the conclusion/connection between Rosa Parks and the anthem protests?

 

Both were upset about things that were happening in society.  They were both sick of racial injustice and they both took extreme steps that could not be ignored in order to try to get society to change.  As I said, I don't put them on the same level as being equal acts...but they both did something that made those around them uncomfortable in order to try to make things better for others around them.

[csmopar]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

Both were upset about things that were happening in society.  They were both sick of racial injustice and they both took extreme steps that could not be ignored in order to try to get society to change.  As I said, I don't put them on the same level as being equal acts...but they both did something that made those around them uncomfortable in order to try to make things better for others around them.

makes sense. But I have to say, it'd been different had he started this PRIOR to the very first game after he was benched for poor performance.  As it sits, it can be concluded he was protesting only cause he wanted to make himself the center of attention after being benched.  

[Jason_]

Just now, csmopar said:

makes sense. But I have to say, it'd been different had he started this PRIOR to the very first game after he was benched for poor performance.  As it sits, it can be concluded he was protesting only cause he wanted to make himself the center of attention after being benched.  

 

I completely agree with you there

[ColtsBlueFL]

A reminder to all. Please keep to the rules regarding excessive font size / formatting.

 

Also a reminder to make sure you respond about the posts, not posters. 

 

Thank you.

[Cynjin]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

well that's your problem too...I understand the point you were making.  My counter point is that trying to do the nice thing and respecting everyone's delicate opinions doesn't always get your point across.  Sometimes it takes more drastic measures and upsetting the balance...questioning societal norms...to get your point across.  I don't buy for a second that kneeling for the anthem was Kaepernick's first step in his pursuit of change.  Perhaps he tried going to local law enforcement, even state law enforcement, town hall, writing to congress etc etc etc.  When none of those channels worked, he chose a more drastic measure. Something that couldn't be ignored or swept under the rug.  Something that people would HAVE to notice.  

 

Maybe if people would stop worrying about their butt hurt feelings and trying to find out what he and others are truly protesting against rather than worrying about their form of protest, then that could also lead to quicker change.

 

Yeah, it's always someone else's problem, it couldn't possibly be an issue with you and others inability to understand why they might be upset with the form of protest.  There's no way Kaep could have organized a peaceful protest, say in front of a police station and informed the press.  No that's not a possibility.  Or used his celebrity and connections with other celebrities to bring attention to incidences of police brutality in a public forum other than what they chose.  No that wouldn't have worked either.  No, the best way was to tick off millions of people, have the focused shift primarily from the cause of social injustice towards blacks and put it firmly on the act kneeling for the national anthem.  Yeah, that was a much better plan.

[csmopar]

2 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Yeah, it's always someone else's problem, it couldn't possibly be an issue with you and others inability to understand why they might be upset with the form of protest.  There's no way Kaep could have organized a peaceful protest, say in front of a police station and informed the press.  No that's not a possibility.  Or used his celebrity and connections with other celebrities to bring attention to incidences of police brutality in a public forum other than what they chose.  No that wouldn't have worked either.  No, the best way was to tick off millions of people, have the focused shift primarily from the cause of social injustice towards blacks and put it firmly on the act kneeling for the national anthem.  Yeah, that was a much better plan.

you do have a point...

[Jason_]

2 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Yeah, it's always someone else's problem, it couldn't possibly be an issue with you and others inability to understand 

 

again...pot meet kettle ;)

[Jason_]

3 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

There's no way Kaep could have organized a peaceful protest, say in front of a police station and informed the press.  No that's not a possibility.  Or used his celebrity and connections with other celebrities to bring attention to incidences of police brutality in a public forum other than what they chose.  No that wouldn't have worked either. 

 

Prove to us that he never tried taking those routes and was simply ignored?  Which ironically is something I mentioned in the post that you quoted that you conveniently ignored.

[PrincetonTiger]

@J@son

   Great points

[DougDew]

48 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

That is opinion not fact unless you have talked to CK

That's true.  But a rational person's conclusion oftentimes is more accurate than a liar's words.

[Cynjin]

7 minutes ago, csmopar said:

you do have a point...

 

Thank you.

7 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

again...pot meet kettle ;)

 

That is hilarious from someone that said it was my problem.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, DougDew said:

That's true.  But a rational person's conclusion oftentimes is more accurate than a liar's words.

Rational does not equal right

 

    At one time Civil Right Opponents were considered rational 

[Cynjin]

11 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

Prove to us that he never tried taking those routes and was simply ignored?  Which ironically is something I mentioned in the post that you quoted that you conveniently ignored.

 

Prove to me that he did.  I would have thought in the multiple reports on the protests that information would probably have been brought up.  All I ever read about is where he gave money to support certain causes, I didn't see anything about him organizing events or protests of any kind.

 

Edit:  And you stated that perhaps he tried to do these things without any proof that he actually did.

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, Cynjin said:

 

Thank you.

 

That is hilarious from someone that said it was my problem.

 

And did you not also say it's Kaep's problem, not yours?

 

"Yeah, it's always someone else's problem (according to you it's Kaep's problem that he protested the wrong way...in a way that you didn't like), it couldn't possibly be an issue with you and others inability to understand (you've admitted that if he protested in a more PC manner that most people wouldn't have a problem with it because they'd focus more on the point and not the method.  So that is you and these others that have the inability to understand what point Kaep was trying to make...or the complete lack of interest in trying to find out since all you are concerned about is him doing something in a way that doesn't offend you) "

 

 

[PrincetonTiger]

Helpful Hint from TigerTown    

   I have learned that it is never productive to go into a debate without understand both sides

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

Prove to me that he did.  I would have thought in the multiple reports on the protests that information would probably have been brought up.  All I ever read about is where he gave money to support certain causes, I didn't see anything about him organizing events or protests of any kind.

 

Edit:  And you stated that perhaps he tried to do these things without any proof that he actually did.

 

Those are my thoughts too. There is no way word of it would not have come out, had any of those prior efforts (prior to kneeling) by Kaep in other avenues been taken. While it does not diminish the cause still, it has now gotten to the point that the medium is clearly distracting from the message, a message that others players have chosen to devote other ways to raise awareness for. 

 

Kaep's timing was questionable, at the very least, and he did pay a price for it.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

Those are my thoughts too. There is no way word of it would not have come out, had any of those prior efforts by Kaep in other avenues been taken. While it does not diminish the cause still, it has now gotten to the point that the medium is clearly distracting from the message, a message that others players have chosen to devote other ways to raise awareness for. 

There are ways to bury things like that 

[Jason_]

1 minute ago, PrincetonTiger said:

There are ways to bury things like that 

 

agreed!

[chad72]

2 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

There are ways to bury things like that 

 

Very hard to do in this social media world, most social media social justice warriors would have dug it out. Plus, it would not be consistent with Kaep's ways, where getting attention was as big an aspect as the issue itself, IMO. I do not buy that for a moment.

[Cynjin]

13 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

And did you not also say it's Kaep's problem, not yours?

 

"Yeah, it's always someone else's problem (according to you it's Kaep's problem that he protested the wrong way...in a way that you didn't like), it couldn't possibly be an issue with you and others inability to understand (you've admitted that if he protested in a more PC manner that most people wouldn't have a problem with it because they'd focus more on the point and not the method.  So that is you and these others that have the inability to understand what point Kaep was trying to make...or the complete lack of interest in trying to find out since all you are concerned about is him doing something in a way that doesn't offend you) "

 

 

 

I was actually referring to you and others on this board, not Kaep.  I believe that the players were shortsighted and didn't think about or perhaps didn't care about the negative ramifications of their actions.

 

I am not sure that holding a peaceful protest in front of a police station would be "PC".  As I said it would have ticked off far fewer people and kept the focus on the issue of social injustice with regards to blacks and the police.  Also, and this is me, do not do something that I find disrespectful and then expect me to support your cause.  I am not going to be receptive to that.  Show me why you feel that the cause is important without being disrespectful and if I agree, and I do believe their cause is just, I will more than likely offer support.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

Very hard to do in this social media world, most social media social justice warriors would have dug it out. Plus, it would not be consistent with Kaep's ways, where getting attention was as big an aspect as the issue itself, IMO. I do not buy that for a moment.

It very easy

   The same way some politicians run campaigns    

     It is called Discredit and/or deny

 

   Social Media makes it easier since people often only follow like minded voices

 

     I do it out of self preservation 

[Nadine]

1 hour ago, pgt_rob said:

 

What does that even mean when talking about the N Word and the word Fa**ot? 

 

Complains about racism, but uses racist and derogatory words on the daily. Isn't that hypercritical? Why even try to make the change if you can't even change yourself.

 

Why are we talking about a rapper you don't like?

[DougDew]

15 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Rational does not equal right

 

    At one time Civil Right Opponents were considered rational 

Why does this stupid protest of a traditional friendly gesture towards patriotism and togetherness have to deteriorate into a philisophical discussion about race and such?

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, DougDew said:

Why does this stupid protest of a traditional friendly gesture towards patriotism and togetherness have to deteriorate into a philisophical discussion about race and such?

Because of things like the Sterling Brown incident

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

It very easy

   The same way some politicians run campaigns    

     It is called Discredit and/or deny

 

   Social Media makes it easier since people often only follow like minded voices

 

     I do it out of self preservation 

 

Bottom line, none of us (me or you) have information that something did happen prior to the kneeling on Kaep's part. I am going based on what we know. You and some others are "speculating" based on what we do not know.

 

I am sorry, I will stick with what we do know. Knowledge is power, speculation does not win cases in court or arguments without "some" evidence to back it up, which you do not. That is the bottom line. I agree to disagree.

[PrincetonTiger]

2 minutes ago, Nadine said:

Why are we talking about a rapper you don't like?

Not sure I was talking about things I hear at the Youth Center I work and how kids use words 

[Jason_]

4 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

 

I was actually referring to you and others on this board, not Kaep.  I believe that the players were shortsighted and didn't think about or perhaps care about the negative ramifications of their actions.

 

I am not sure that holding a peaceful protest in front of a police station would be "PC".  As I said it would have ticked off far fewer people and kept the focus on the issue of social injustice with regards to blacks and the police.  Also, and this is me, do not do something that I find disrespectful and then expect me to support your cause.  I am not going to be receptive to that.  Show me why you feel that the cause is important without being disrespectful and if I agree, and I do believe their cause is just, I will more than likely offer support.

 

And again this is why I brought up the Rosa Parks situation.  Sometimes doing things the nice and easy way doesn't work.  Maybe it would have for you specifically, but there are still hundreds of thousands that would have had issue with Kaep no matter what form of protest he chose.  

 

Maybe he felt the issue was bad enough that immediate drastic action was needed.  Perhaps he didn't want to try doing things the nice way while more innocent people are killed.  Again, so many people didn't bother to consider that and are more focused on the fact that they don't like Kaep's actions.  

[PrincetonTiger]

1 minute ago, chad72 said:

 

Bottom line, none of us (me or you) have information that something did happen prior to the kneeling. I am going based on what we know. You and some others are speculating based on what we do not know.

 

I am sorry, I will stick with what we do know. Knowledge is power, speculation does not win cases in court or arguments without some evidence to back it up, which you do not. That is the bottom line. I agree to disagree.

Do you believe every TV Ad

 

    I have been trained to look into things and not believe everything I hear and 

[chad72]

3 minutes ago, PrincetonTiger said:

Do you believe every TV Ad

 

    I have been trained to look into things and not believe everything I hear and 

 

You can have it your way. Let me know when you look into Kaep's previous efforts prior to his kneeling and report back to me/the whole world, we can then resume this conversation, that is all I am interested in. 

[PrincetonTiger]

5 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

And again this is why I brought up the Rosa Parks situation.  Sometimes doing things the nice and easy way doesn't work.  Maybe it would have for you specifically, but there are still hundreds of thousands that would have had issue with Kaep no matter what form of protest he chose.  

 

Maybe he felt the issue was bad enough that immediate drastic action was needed.  Perhaps he didn't want to try doing things the nice way while more innocent people are killed.  Again, so many people didn't bother to consider that and are more focused on the fact that they don't like Kaep's actions.  

I owe everything to people like Rosa Parks and Susan B. Anthony

[Cynjin]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

And again this is why I brought up the Rosa Parks situation.  Sometimes doing things the nice and easy way doesn't work.  Maybe it would have for you specifically, but there are still hundreds of thousands that would have had issue with Kaep no matter what form of protest he chose.  

 

Maybe he felt the issue was bad enough that immediate drastic action was needed.  Perhaps he didn't want to try doing things the nice way while more innocent people are killed.  Again, so many people didn't bother to consider that and are more focused on the fact that they don't like Kaep's actions.  

 

There are always going to be a segment of people that say hey it's not my problem or don't like Kaep for one reason or another, but he and others could have minimized that by choosing a different way.  I have seen no evidence that the players involved even tried to find another way to maximize support for their cause.   To the bolded, that is predominantly the fault of the players by the way they chose to protest, their message was lost because of that choice.

[Buck Showalter]

2 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

I was twisting the narrative?  Go look in the mirror and while you're at it look up the word hypocritical.

 

2 hours ago, Buck Showalter said:

O.k.

You win.

 

2 hours ago, Cynjin said:

 

I thought you were done.  Thanks for the laugh though, your obliviousness to your own hypocrisy is amusing.

 

1 hour ago, Cynjin said:

 

Believe me, I have been there several times and have thanked them and said a prayer, a very solemn place.

Sorry, I was out, until I read this last post of yours. I realize that, I, like every human, am deeply flawed & hypocritical, so that is not lost on me. I also try to see beyond borders and some of the nationalism that divides people & I pray that ALL people find peace & justice. That informs much of my opinion on what I percieve as misplaced outrage over the whole anthem protest issue. I have not meant to offend anyone, apologies if I offended earlier...

 

If there were an olive branch emoticon, I would use it here.

[PrincetonTiger]

Just now, chad72 said:

 

You can have it your way. Let me know when you look into Kaep's previous efforts prior to his kneeling and report back to me/the whole world, we can then resume this conversation. 

All I said was that there has several examples in history that facts have been buried not The there was any evidence here

 

   For example

    Pro Isolation Politicians in America and the UK down played/ignored the Militarization of Germany and Japan until 1939(UK) and 1941(US)

[NFLfan]

1 hour ago, Cynjin said:

 

You're missing the point.  There were better ways for the players to garner support for their cause and isn't that the goal to gain support for their cause in order to facilitate change?  

No matter how the players chose to address the issues, most fans would not find them acceptable. I remember a long time ago (more than 20 years ago, I think), Tony Dungy was making a plea for the hiring of more black coaches. That was when there were very few. Several fans said that Dungy should "just shut up and coach". Others called him racist. What he said did not seem disrespectful or wrong but fans did not like it. Some were offended. Should he not have said something to avoid offending these fans??

 

As @csmopar and others have intimated, a segment of the fans do not want to see players engaged in anything that can be perceived as political or as complaining.