Charlie Casserly Report: Luck to be full go for Training Camp

[MacDee1975]

8 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

He never had it re-scoped, let alone corrective surgery.  Just rest, a mysterious Euro trip, and then rehab, probably not too unlike last year. So there is the unknown.

 

 

To me, the rubber hits the road when it is time for 11 on 11 drills.

 

 

And the occasional ex front office guy saying they believe Luck will be ready.  People latch on to that like a drowning victim trying to grab their life saver...

 

And the frequent current top front office guy saying he believes Luck will be ready.

[JColts72]

This year? CBS sports says he is still not throwing yet; no surprise. There should be a poll here on when that may happen again i.e.,  the 1st game, mid season, in 2019 or never again. 

[Swan Ronson]

2 hours ago, JColts72 said:

This year? CS sports says he is still not throwing yet; no surprise. There should be a poll here on when that may happen again i.e.,  the 1st game, mid season in 2019 or never again. 

No there shouldn't.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

3 hours ago, JColts72 said:

This year? CS sports says he is still not throwing yet; no surprise. There should be a poll here on when that may happen again i.e.,  the 1st game, mid season in 2019 or never again. 

Poll or not, that won't change the fact that there's a decent chance that Brissett will be our starting QB.

[JColts72]

30 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

Poll or not, that won't change the fact that there's a decent chance that Brissett will be our starting QB.

That is looking more and more certain. He's decent but needs to change the Bert Jones number.

[JColts72]

1 hour ago, Swan Ronson said:

No there shouldn't.

Yes there should 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

10 minutes ago, JColts72 said:

That is looking more and more certain. He's decent but needs to change the Bert Jones number.

 

41 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

Poll or not, that won't change the fact that there's a decent chance that Brissett will be our starting QB.

 

Define "decent" & "certain"

[deedub75]

On 5/23/2018 at 12:59 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO, this offseason is a lot different than last. Luck looks 100% healthy and built like a Train. Last offseason he didn't look right at all, skinny, etc.. I have very little doubt he wont be ready for Week 1. We will see once he starts throwing how he feels but I think he will be fine. Irsay was just trying to be optimistic last offseason which most owners are when it comes to a franchise player that is injured. I know the NFL is a business but IMO Irsay didn't have to lie to sell tickets, so why would he? We were going to sell out every game regardless anyway which we did whether or not we announced Luck was out for the season in August or October.

 

I just find it hard to believe that being/looking in better shape has any bearing on the potential for shoulder pain once he starts throwing. Tim Tebow is a physical specimen and can’t throw a football. Let’s just hope Luck has developed a new throwing motion that allows him to throw like he used to with no pain and not throw like Tebow. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

 

I just find it hard to believe that being/looking in better shape has any bearing on the potential for shoulder pain once he starts throwing. Tim Tebow is a physical specimen and can’t throw a football. Let’s just hope Luck has developed a new throwing motion that allows him to throw like he used to with no pain and not throw like Tebow. 

Yep that is the key and what everyone is waiting for, for him to start throwing and then will he have soreness or not? He has obviously been lifting weights and throwing weighted balls but until he throws a real Football we wont know without 100% certainty about his shoulder. I do feel a lot better about this than I did last year though just by the way he looks and his outgoing attitude.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

20 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

 

I just find it hard to believe that being/looking in better shape has any bearing on the potential for shoulder pain once he starts throwing. Tim Tebow is a physical specimen and can’t throw a football. Let’s just hope Luck has developed a new throwing motion that allows him to throw like he used to with no pain and not throw like Tebow. 

 

I must've missed something... why isn't Tim Tebow able to throw a football?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I must've missed something... why isn't Tim Tebow able to throw a football?

He meant it as his mechanics are bad. His release just isn't good.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

47 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He meant it as his mechanics are bad. His release just isn't good.

 

Ah... I misread it as he couldn't throw anymore, which would be really odd considering he's playing AA baseball right now, and is actually pretty decent.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 hour ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

 

Define "decent" & "certain"

 

"Decent" is 42.567 %

[Steamboat_Shaun]

8 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

 

"Decent" is 42.567 %

 

Is this based on something you've seen or read, or gut feeling?

[LJpalmbeacher2]

1 minute ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Is this based on something you've seen or read, or gut feeling?

42.% is a figure I think is decent.

So what is your expectations of Luck being our starting QB in game #1 and what do you base your opinion on?

 

 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

24 minutes ago, LJpalmbeacher2 said:

42.% is a figure I think is decent.

So what is your expectations of Luck being our starting QB in game #1 and what do you base your opinion on?

 

 

 

I'm about 90% certain he will be. I'm basing it on how he looks, the fact that he's not in hiding like he was all last offseason, he's on the field with jersey and helmet helping install the new offense, the fact that the head coach & GM are both saying he'll hit the ground running come training camp, the fact that he's currently only listed as 10 lbs lighter than Jon Simon on the roster.

 

Call me overly optimistic, but we had none of this last year. Luck looked like he weighed 150 lbs, he was nowhere to be seen during OTAs, minicamp, or training camp, Pagano & Ballard both refused to give a timeline, etc. It's like night & day, and season ticket renewals happened months ago. If this is all for some "charade," then I don't really know what the point of it is.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I'm about 90% certain he will be. I'm basing it on how he looks, the fact that he's not in hiding like he was all offseason, he's on the field with jersey and helmet helping install the new offense, the fact that the head coach & GM are both saying he'll hit the ground running come training camp, the fact that he's currently only listed as 10 lbs lighter than Jon Simon on the roster.

 

Call me overly optimistic, but we had none of this last year. Luck looked like he weighed 150 lbs, he was nowhere to be seen during OTAs, minicamp, or training camp, Pagano & Ballard both refused to give a timeline, etc. It's like night & day, and season ticket renewals happened months ago. If this is all for some "charade," then I don't really know what the point of it is.

I agree, Great Post.

[IinD]

Gonna be fun when he bombs it out the first time.. Even if it's incomplete... ...

[JColts72]

3 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

 

Define "decent" & "certain"

Fer sure , certain and decent; not star, not scrub material.

[LJpalmbeacher2]

55 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I'm about 90% certain he will be. I'm basing it on how he looks, the fact that he's not in hiding like he was all last offseason, he's on the field with jersey and helmet helping install the new offense, the fact that the head coach & GM are both saying he'll hit the ground running come training camp, the fact that he's currently only listed as 10 lbs lighter than Jon Simon on the roster.

 

Call me overly optimistic, but we had none of this last year. Luck looked like he weighed 150 lbs, he was nowhere to be seen during OTAs, minicamp, or training camp, Pagano & Ballard both refused to give a timeline, etc. It's like night & day, and season ticket renewals happened months ago. If this is all for some "charade," then I don't really know what the point of it is.

I thought you would respond 100% and he looks buff in picture lol.

Good post, hope your right.

[The Fish]

If they're giving him as much time as possible as opposed to having a specific target date where things medically are expected to be healed, then I'm less optimistic that he'll avoid fatigue/soreness, but I don't have a clue what's going on here. 

 

 

[Superman]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:11 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

He never had it re-scoped, let alone corrective surgery.  Just rest, a mysterious Euro trip, and then rehab, probably not too unlike last year. So there is the unknown.

 

 

To me, the rubber hits the road when it is time for 11 on 11 drills.

 

 

And the occasional ex front office guy saying they believe Luck will be ready.  People latch on to that like a drowning victim trying to grab their life saver...

 

If you think the re-scope or corrective surgery were critical, that's one thing. But since then, he has evidently put the shoulder through a lot of work, some of which is as intensive as actually throwing a football (conjecture, based on what Tom House and Adam Dedeaux typically do with throwers). So if there was going to be a problem similar to what happened in October, it's reasonable to think that it would have happened by now.

 

There is a lot unknown. But what we do know is that, last year, Luck was still trying to recover from surgery. He wasn't able to work out, his weight was way down, and everything was a mad scramble for him to get ready to play within a short window. His shoulder was presumably still healing, the muscles supporting the shoulder and in the arm hadn't been used, etc. 

 

Now, 16 months have passed since the surgery. We can assume that any injury related to the surgery is healed, the muscles are built back up, and the shoulder is stable. The possibility remains that the bicep becomes a problem with a greater workload, or even that the shoulder needs additional repair. But I think it's a much simpler equation at this point, and there is no rush. He wasn't close to throwing a year ago, and honestly, the rest of his body wasn't ready to play in the NFL. Anything could have gone wrong. Many of those variables no longer exist.

[a06cc]

Luck will be fine. Again why do you people think after what Reggie Wayne said he is now in the building? 

[oldunclemark]

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 4:03 PM, superrep1967 said:

Charlie Casserly has talked to the Colts brass and they say they're very confident that Luck will be full go for training camp. If Charlie Casserly is reporting this then I'm on board. What does everyone else think I think it's good news. He says he's trowing weighed balls right now but will be full go for training camp. I know we got to wait and see until he actually throws a real football but I still think it's good news and I think he'll be ready to go. 

If he is actually throwing weighted balls, he's about ready to go I would guess..

He is throwing now...is the best thing I got out of this

[ColtsBlueFL]

18 hours ago, Superman said:

 

If you think the re-scope or corrective surgery were critical, that's one thing. But since then, he has evidently put the shoulder through a lot of work, some of which is as intensive as actually throwing a football (conjecture, based on what Tom House and Adam Dedeaux typically do with throwers). So if there was going to be a problem similar to what happened in October, it's reasonable to think that it would have happened by now.

 

There is a lot unknown. But what we do know is that, last year, Luck was still trying to recover from surgery. He wasn't able to work out, his weight was way down, and everything was a mad scramble for him to get ready to play within a short window. His shoulder was presumably still healing, the muscles supporting the shoulder and in the arm hadn't been used, etc. 

 

Now, 16 months have passed since the surgery. We can assume that any injury related to the surgery is healed, the muscles are built back up, and the shoulder is stable. The possibility remains that the bicep becomes a problem with a greater workload, or even that the shoulder needs additional repair. But I think it's a much simpler equation at this point, and there is no rush. He wasn't close to throwing a year ago, and honestly, the rest of his body wasn't ready to play in the NFL. Anything could have gone wrong. Many of those variables no longer exist.

 

Yes, I did then and still do question not looking into the shoulder after all the rehab and then suffering pain in practice on his comeback, which caused doctors to shut his throwing down for a few months last November. I remember on his first shoulder injury in 2015 being reported as a 'subluxation' which was quickly quieted up, and then dismissed as just a sore shoulder.  He played with it some in 2015, and all 2016, for nearly 2 years (quite well too, considering). I feel this created an instability in the shoulder.  Luck adjusted by changing his mechanics.  They worked with corticosteroid injections and weekly rehab rest to get through the pain in 2016.

 

in the off season he had Labrum surgery.  For some it works, (Brees) and for others not so much (Jim Miller, and apparently Luck).  I'm coming to the possible conclusion Luck suffered the tear from instability (that subluxatioin) and playing with it.

.

 

He develops more issues with his changed mechanics, causing more stress/instability.  They go in and fix the easy to see issue, the torn labrum.  But how about the possibility of instability Causing it? What was done to fix that initial cause, and if nothing (and it is there) can more fraying occur trying to comeback? Sure, it can cause more damage. This is one reason why I can't get out the feeling Luck likely went to Europe for advance PRP and Stem Cell treatment.  They can do more with PRP treatment than is allowed in the U.S. and are more advanced in stem cell research. That's why you hear about Kobe, Peyton, etc... going there.

 

http://cses.cumc.columbia.edu/care-newtreatment.html

https://www.regenexx.com/

 

We know upon return, Luck has been at 3DQB for up to 4 months (IDK).  Is he still in the functional and strength conditioning phase, or has he moved on to the mechanics and motion analysis phase?  Or beyond both, but not throwing footballs yet? I still feel it takes 2 months in a throwing program with a 'Duke', (which he has not done yet) to be ready for practice drills.  Then, in live dynamic action, Luck will have to throw at different arm angles, off the back foot at times, sliding around the pocket, sometimes on the run, all with defenders chasing him and trying to deflect his pass.  This month of throwing in this phase developing timing and accuracy (without reverting to poor mechanics ingrained from playing with his injury) is the tell tale story if he is/will be ready IMHO. And when he takes the first team reps from JB. This takes time, but fortunately, there is a lot of time before training camp too.

 

Yet, throughout this all, nobody has guaranteed Luck will be ready.  Just display very hopeful optimism.  Like last year, I retain cautious optimism, yet realize there is no guarantee that there will not be a repeat of 2017 either. I just hope not.

[ColtsBlueFL]

15 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

If he is actually throwing weighted balls, he's about ready to go I would guess..

He is throwing now...is the best thing I got out of this

 

A good part of the weighted ball program is to NOT throw it.  Truth!

[NewColtsFan]

15 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

If he is actually throwing weighted balls, he's about ready to go I would guess..

He is throwing now...is the best thing I got out of this

 

With so much secrecy it's hard to truly know....   but I believe the weighted balls were thrown at the House training facility in California.

 

I think since Luck returned to Indy he's been throwing the smaller, lighter footballs to work on higher reps and developing new muscle memory.    That's been my read of things, but perhaps others here are reading things differently....

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

Not sure how long Luck was there at 3DQB (Tom House training facilty in California) -

 

http://train3dqb.com/

 

or if he needs to return at any time. How much time was spent on strength, how much on motion analysis, etc...

 

Here's an article on these types of programs, done by Mike Reinold of Champion PT and Performance and Lenny Macrina who teamed up with Dr. James Andrews and Dr. Glenn Fleisig of ASMI to design and conduct the first study to document the effects of a 6-week weighted baseball training program on pitching velocity, arm characteristics, and injury rates.

 

https://elitebaseballperformance.com/are-weighted-baseball-velocity-programs-safe-and-effective/

 

A few Interesting things I saw (of many) -

 

"Weighted Baseballs Do Not Increase Shoulder Strength, They May Actually Inhibit Strength Gains. It appears that not only do weighted ball training programs not help develop rotator cuff strength, as previously theorized, they may in fact inhibit strength gains and should be further investigated."

 

"Weighted Baseballs Do Not Increase Arm Speed or Strength. Arm strength, arm angular velocity, and arm stress were not statistically different following the training program.  This refutes the commonly reported theories that the effectiveness of weighted ball training programs can be attributed to the development of greater arm strength or arm speed."  Yet, some but not all participants increased velocity.

 

"Potentially most important to the study was the finding that 24% of those in the training group either sustained an injury during the training program or in the following season, including two olecranon stress fractures, one partial ulnar collateral ligament injury, and one ulnar collateral ligament injury that surgical reconstruction was recommended.   This is the first study to document the injury rates associated with a 6-week weighted baseball training program. No injuries were noted in the same time span within the control group."

 

 

 

[Narcosys]

On 5/24/2018 at 8:37 PM, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

 

Define "decent" & "certain"

Define "define"

[Cynjin]

Saw this pic of Luck at the race this past weekend.  Looks more like a LB.

 

 

 

[Boiler_Colt]

37 minutes ago, Cynjin said:

Saw this pic of Luck at the race this past weekend.  Looks more like a LB.

 

 

 

His right arm is missing, run for the hills!!

[Superman]

On 5/26/2018 at 9:47 AM, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Yes, I did then and still do question not looking into the shoulder after all the rehab and then suffering pain in practice on his comeback, which caused doctors to shut his throwing down for a few months last November. I remember on his first shoulder injury in 2015 being reported as a 'subluxation' which was quickly quieted up, and then dismissed as just a sore shoulder.  He played with it some in 2015, and all 2016, for nearly 2 years (quite well too, considering). I feel this created an instability in the shoulder.  Luck adjusted by changing his mechanics.  They worked with corticosteroid injections and weekly rehab rest to get through the pain in 2016.

 

in the off season he had Labrum surgery.  For some it works, (Brees) and for others not so much (Jim Miller, and apparently Luck).  I'm coming to the possible conclusion Luck suffered the tear from instability (that subluxatioin) and playing with it.

.

 

He develops more issues with his changed mechanics, causing more stress/instability.  They go in and fix the easy to see issue, the torn labrum.  But how about the possibility of instability Causing it? What was done to fix that initial cause, and if nothing (and it is there) can more fraying occur trying to comeback? Sure, it can cause more damage. This is one reason why I can't get out the feeling Luck likely went to Europe for advance PRP and Stem Cell treatment.  They can do more with PRP treatment than is allowed in the U.S. and are more advanced in stem cell research. That's why you hear about Kobe, Peyton, etc... going there.

 

http://cses.cumc.columbia.edu/care-newtreatment.html

https://www.regenexx.com/

 

We know upon return, Luck has been at 3DQB for up to 4 months (IDK).  Is he still in the functional and strength conditioning phase, or has he moved on to the mechanics and motion analysis phase?  Or beyond both, but not throwing footballs yet? I still feel it takes 2 months in a throwing program with a 'Duke', (which he has not done yet) to be ready for practice drills.  Then, in live dynamic action, Luck will have to throw at different arm angles, off the back foot at times, sliding around the pocket, sometimes on the run, all with defenders chasing him and trying to deflect his pass.  This month of throwing in this phase developing timing and accuracy (without reverting to poor mechanics ingrained from playing with his injury) is the tell tale story if he is/will be ready IMHO. And when he takes the first team reps from JB. This takes time, but fortunately, there is a lot of time before training camp too.

 

Yet, throughout this all, nobody has guaranteed Luck will be ready.  Just display very hopeful optimism.  Like last year, I retain cautious optimism, yet realize there is no guarantee that there will not be a repeat of 2017 either. I just hope not.

 

All great stuff, as always.

 

I'm going to assume that, even before the surgery, they paid some attention to the prior subluxation and determined that no corrective action was needed. By the time Luck plays in a real game, nearly three years will have passed since that injury. 

 

And there are still a lot of unknowns, obviously. My point is just that the common retort of 'that's what they said last year, and look what happened' is ignoring pretty much all of the developments we've seen over the last year. This is not a repeat of the same chapter, even if it's still the same book. Things are different.

 

Your cautious approach is more than reasonable, and until we see proof that Luck is able to play, and really, until he's back to his pre-2015 100% where he's practicing every day and has no restrictions, it's fair to say that we're not really out of the woods. Still, Luck is in a much better place than he was a year ago. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

12 hours ago, Boiler_Colt said:

His right arm is missing, run for the hills!!

It actually is

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 hours ago, Superman said:

I'm going to assume that, even before the surgery, they paid some attention to the prior subluxation and determined that no corrective action was needed.

 

We could assume, but what we know is he didn't play much more that year due to stomach and kidney issues. So the long rest of the season and offseason for it to feel better.  Andrew opted to not have surgery, but go minimally invasive treatments and rest (day off each week).  But it wasn't working as well as everyone hoped.  Andrew finally had to accept surgical intervention was needed. But what collateral damage was done, and was the original subluxation still an issue?

 

I know a guy who fell awkwardly on his arm so many years ago and knocked it out of socket.  He popped it back in, but even years later he could pop it back out again. That is some real instability.  But we do not know what condition Andrew is truly in, just speculation. So we wait and hope, but things I wait for are specific and will take time.

[southwest1]

On May 13, 2018 at 8:01 AM, chrisfarley said:

So on this magical day when he DOES throw a football, will it be televised?  Will Jim Gray be there?  I need to know because I'm going to invite friends over, but first I've got to go out and get party favors, a keg or two, chips and some more Orville Redenbacher popcorn.

Love this post CF! I literally burst out laughing. Your 1st sentence was priceless! Magical Day indeed. 

On May 20, 2018 at 10:58 PM, theanarchist said:

And if Charley Casserly told you that wolverines make good house pets would you believe him?

Something about that sounds familiar. Hmmm...

On May 22, 2018 at 3:23 AM, theanarchist said:

Just a quote from the movie Planes, Trains, and Automobiles. I was being funny.

John Candy classic. Thanks for clearing that mystery up TAC. 

[stitches]

For whatever it's worth:

 

 

 

Vinatieri on Schefter's podcast: Luck will be ready to go. He said it without hesitation and with a lot of confidence. 

[NDcolt]

If the shoulder is good to throw weighted balls that weigh more than actual footballs, why can’t he throw an actual football?  You think that all of a sudden come July, he will be unleashed to take on the daily strenuous activity of throwing a football several times a day, some short and some long that training camp requires?  Let’s say he does, how accurate you think he will be and how long until he timing is there to gain the confidence to be the starting QB?  Just doesn’t add up or pass the smell test but here’s to Andrew proving us doubters wrong!

[crazycolt1]

10 minutes ago, NDcolt said:

If the shoulder is good to throw weighted balls that weigh more than actual footballs, why can’t he throw an actual football?  You think that all of a sudden come July, he will be unleashed to take on the daily strenuous activity of throwing a football several times a day, some short and some long that training camp requires?  Let’s say he does, how accurate you think he will be and how long until he timing is there to gain the confidence to be the starting QB?  Just doesn’t add up or pass the smell test but here’s to Andrew proving us doubters wrong!

Just how do you know he can't throw an actual football? 

[TdungyW/12]

On 5/24/2018 at 12:44 PM, deedub75 said:

 

I just find it hard to believe that being/looking in better shape has any bearing on the potential for shoulder pain once he starts throwing. Tim Tebow is a physical specimen and can’t throw a football. Let’s just hope Luck has developed a new throwing motion that allows him to throw like he used to with no pain and not throw like Tebow. 

Well typically because of your shoulder is injured and there is a risk of reinjuring that shoulder you aren’t going to be lifting the weight on that “hurt” shoulder for risk of having a set back! So as linemen were saying they were having a hard time keeping up with him in the weight room .... plus you don’t get that big lifting 5-10 rehab weights. He’s probably pushing 60-80 if not higher on shoulders alone ..... on top of rehab and rest ..... I honestly believe they are just playing it down. If they say he is full go and LOOKS like he does he will be our starting QB.

[theanarchist]

On ‎5‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 2:53 PM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yep that is the key and what everyone is waiting for, for him to start throwing and then will he have soreness or not? He has obviously been lifting weights and throwing weighted balls but until he throws a real Football we wont know without 100% certainty about his shoulder. I do feel a lot better about this than I did last year though just by the way he looks and his outgoing attitude.

Everyone assumes, I think, that buy "weighted balls" that hes throwing balls that are as heavy or heavier than a football. We don't know that. Baseball players will used balls that are lighter than a real ball. I think its a bad sign that he has yet to throw a football and would find it hard to believe that if he has not at this point that he could be ready for camp.