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Mr.Debonair

DeMarcus Lawrence/Franchise Tag option

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Can someone explain to me how this works? If the Cowboys cannot get a deal done and Tag him, what option does that leave the Colts in regards to trying to acquire him?

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2 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Can someone explain to me how this works? If the Cowboys cannot get a deal done and Tag him, what option does that leave the Colts in regards to trying to acquire him?

Depends on the tag that they give him (each explained below) 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-what-does-nfl-franchise-tag-mean-20170215-story.html

 

  • "An exclusive franchise tag means a team will pay that player no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position, or 120 percent of the player's previous salary, whichever is greater. The player is not allowed to negotiate with other teams." 
  •  
  • "A nonexclusive franchise tag involves the same salary offer as an exclusive franchise tag, only the player can negotiate with other teams. The player's current team can match any offer sheet. If the old team declines to match the offer, it gets two first-round picks from the other team as compensation. This is the more commonly used franchise tag."
  •  
  • "By applying the transition tag, a team offers the player a salary that is the average of the top 10 salaries at his position. That player can negotiate with other teams. The player's original team has the right of first refusal to match any offer given to a transition-tagged player by another team. If the original team decides to retain the player, it must agree to the contract terms offered by the other team. If the original team decides not to match the offer and the player leaves, it receives nothing in compensation. A team can use the transition tag only if it hasn't used the franchise tag in a given offseason." 

 

Regardless of which tag is given, we also have the option to trade for him after he is tagged. 

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4 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Depends on the tag that they give him (each explained below) 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-what-does-nfl-franchise-tag-mean-20170215-story.html

 

  • "An exclusive franchise tag means a team will pay that player no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position, or 120 percent of the player's previous salary, whichever is greater. The player is not allowed to negotiate with other teams." 
  •  
  • "A nonexclusive franchise tag involves the same salary offer as an exclusive franchise tag, only the player can negotiate with other teams. The player's current team can match any offer sheet. If the old team declines to match the offer, it gets two first-round picks from the other team as compensation. This is the more commonly used franchise tag."
  •  
  • "By applying the transition tag, a team offers the player a salary that is the average of the top 10 salaries at his position. That player can negotiate with other teams. The player's original team has the right of first refusal to match any offer given to a transition-tagged player by another team. If the original team decides to retain the player, it must agree to the contract terms offered by the other team. If the original team decides not to match the offer and the player leaves, it receives nothing in compensation. A team can use the transition tag only if it hasn't used the franchise tag in a given offseason." 

 

Regardless of which tag is given, we also have the option to trade for him after he is tagged. 

Thats the stuff.

 

Btw....cool signature. 

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23 minutes ago, Mr.Debonair said:

Can someone explain to me how this works? If the Cowboys cannot get a deal done and Tag him, what option does that leave the Colts in regards to trying to acquire him?

 

For all practical purposes, it means the Colts would be done trying to acquire him.

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10 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

For all practical purposes, it means the Colts would be done trying to acquire him.

Yeah after reading that reply for SaturdayAllDay, I figured such 

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Trade for him after he is tagged.  Would you rather have Lawrence or Chubb or Barclay with the 3rd. pick?  Better yet if we trade back to 5 or 6.  Then we gain some extra picks.   Would you rather have Lawrence than any player available at those spots?   He's under the tag but we have the cap space to give him a long term deal and we have one of his coaches as our DC.  We would probably target Hitchens as well.  Even if it's a non exclusive tag no one is going to give up two firsts but a top six pick or the third pick might be something they would be interested in.  Would you go for one of the proven premier young ER's or stay with the pick?  I have to believe tagged players have been traded in the past but my memory fails me right now. 

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3 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Trade for him after he is tagged.  Would you rather have Lawrence or Chubb or Barclay with the 3rd. pick?  Better yet if we trade back to 5 or 6.  Then we gain some extra picks.   Would you rather have Lawrence than any player available at those spots?   He's under the tag but we have the cap space to give him a long term deal and we have one of his coaches as our DC.  We would probably target Hitchens as well.  Even if it's a non exclusive tag no one is going to give up two firsts but a top six pick or the third pick might be something they would be interested in.  Would you go for one of the proven premier young ER's or stay with the pick?  I have to believe tagged players have been traded in the past but my memory fails me right now. 

I’d rather have Chubb or Barkley. 

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13 hours ago, richard pallo said:

Trade for him after he is tagged.  Would you rather have Lawrence or Chubb or Barclay with the 3rd. pick?  Better yet if we trade back to 5 or 6.  Then we gain some extra picks.   Would you rather have Lawrence than any player available at those spots?   He's under the tag but we have the cap space to give him a long term deal and we have one of his coaches as our DC.  We would probably target Hitchens as well.  Even if it's a non exclusive tag no one is going to give up two firsts but a top six pick or the third pick might be something they would be interested in.  Would you go for one of the proven premier young ER's or stay with the pick?  I have to believe tagged players have been traded in the past but my memory fails me right now. 

Teams wouldn't trade for a tagged player unless they could strike a deal as part of the process.  It would further complicate the prcess of trading even if he wasn't tagged and under a longer term deal.  Not saying it can't be done, but it would be harder that way - you not only have to agree on compensation with the team you are trading with, but also the player who would have to agree to a long term deal.  In fact, it has been done.  Jared Allen was traded from KC to Min while under the franchise tag (coincidentally, for a 1st and a 3rd, another 3rd, and swapping 6ths with the Cheifs). When he arrived to Minnesota, he signed a record deal at the time. 

 

Teams want the ability to have certainty moving forward and if you couldn't strike a deal in principle before the trade, you would have serious reservations about going through with the deal at all.  Giving up a 1st and two 3rds would be a tough swallow if you couldn't be guaranteed more than a one year rental.  It's gotta make business sense for everyone.

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On 1/25/2018 at 7:03 PM, richard pallo said:

Trade for him after he is tagged.  Would you rather have Lawrence or Chubb or Barclay with the 3rd. pick?  Better yet if we trade back to 5 or 6.  Then we gain some extra picks.   Would you rather have Lawrence than any player available at those spots?   He's under the tag but we have the cap space to give him a long term deal and we have one of his coaches as our DC.  We would probably target Hitchens as well.  Even if it's a non exclusive tag no one is going to give up two firsts but a top six pick or the third pick might be something they would be interested in.  Would you go for one of the proven premier young ER's or stay with the pick?  I have to believe tagged players have been traded in the past but my memory fails me right now. 

 

RP....  

 

If we try to trade for Lawrence after he is tagged, guess what pick Dallas will ask for?

 

Our first round pick, and maybe more.   Are you ready to trade the 3rd overall pick to the Cowboys (and maybe more) for Lawrence?!?     

 

Not me.  I want no part of that.    :peek:

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30 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

RP....  

 

If we try to trade for Lawrence after he is tagged, guess what pick Dallas will ask for?

 

Our first round pick, and maybe more.   Are you ready to trade the 3rd overall pick to the Cowboys (and maybe more) for Lawrence?!?     

 

Not me.  I want no part of that.    :peek:

Lol. NO ONE should ever want this to go down. Not if you're a Colts fan.

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7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

RP....  

 

If we try to trade for Lawrence after he is tagged, guess what pick Dallas will ask for?

 

Our first round pick, and maybe more.   Are you ready to trade the 3rd overall pick to the Cowboys (and maybe more) for Lawrence?!?     

 

Not me.  I want no part of that.    :peek:

I see you want no part of the trade.  But that's the interesting question. The 3rd. overall pick is a rookie who has not proved a thing as a pro as we know.  Lawrence is a 25yr. old all pro premier ER. playing on a team with just over 20mil. in cap space.  That's near the bottom of the league.  A young proven player, maybe the best ER in the league, for a draft pick.  I don't know.  If we knew we could do it straight up for the pick with a contract ready to go that locks him in long term I'm interested.  Like everyone says these proven players don't get free for a reason. And what would Dallas do with the pick?  Trade back for more picks most likely.  I can't see a player they would target right now.  Practical affordability of his tag or contract could come into play here.  It could come down to money.  Interesting possibility though. 

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15 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

I see you want no part of the trade.  But that's the interesting question. The 3rd. overall pick is a rookie who has not proved a thing as a pro as we know.  Lawrence is a 25yr. old all pro premier ER. playing on a team with just over 20mil. in cap space.  That's near the bottom of the league.  A young proven player, maybe the best ER in the league, for a draft pick.  I don't know.  If we knew we could do it straight up for the pick with a contract ready to go that locks him in long term I'm interested.  Like everyone says these proven players don't get free for a reason. And what would Dallas do with the pick?  Trade back for more picks most likely.  I can't see a player they would target right now.  Practical affordability of his tag or contract could come into play here.  It could come down to money.  Interesting possibility though. 

 

I don't see the debate as Chubb vs Lawrence.     I see it as Chubb, on a rookie contract for 5-years vs Lawrence on a contract that will likely be at least 5/80 and maybe as high as 5/90.   Lawrence will have all the leverage on the contract. 

 

On that basis,  I'd rather have Chubb.

 

Remember, if you compare Chubb coming out of college with Lawrence coming out of college, Chubb wins all day, every day.  So there's reason to believe Chubb will turn into Lawrence on the NFL level and maybe better.   Chubb is better against the run.

 

Just want to offer a different perspective...

 

I'm an RP fan!     :thmup:

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1 hour ago, KING. said:

Cowboys might not be able to afford him.

They may dump Dez

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1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't see the debate as Chubb vs Lawrence.     I see it as Chubb, on a rookie contract for 5-years vs Lawrence on a contract that will likely be at least 5/80 and maybe as high as 5/90.   Lawrence will have all the leverage on the contract. 

 

On that basis,  I'd rather have Chubb.

 

Remember, if you compare Chubb coming out of college with Lawrence coming out of college, Chubb wins all day, every day.  So there's reason to believe Chubb will turn into Lawrence on the NFL level and maybe better.   Chubb is better against the run.

 

Just want to offer a different perspective...

 

I'm an RP fan!     :thmup:

Ya I agree with this. 20 million a year plus the #3 pick is not worth it at all lol especially if it’s only a one year franchise tag. What happens if we give up the #3 pick and he decides to leave after a year? We basically would have given one of the best draft picks we’ve ever had for a rental. Chubb has a higher ceiling and we could use that $20 million on other good players 

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4 hours ago, BOTT said:

They may dump Dez

 

If he doesn't take a pay cut/rework his contract I can definitely see him getting cut.

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Signing Lawrence to a huge contract isn't a necessity if we end up drafting Chubb. We will have Chubb for 4-5 years under his rookie contract and we still have Sheard and Simon, so our pass rush with Chubb should be decent. But man, if we had both Lawrence and Chubb out there on the field, now that's something I could get excited about.

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10 hours ago, BOTT said:

They may dump Dez

Doubt it. I mean, it's Jerry Jones we're talking about.

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6 hours ago, esmort said:

 

If he doesn't take a pay cut/rework his contract I can definitely see him getting cut.

Keep him away from Indianapolis. Can't stand him.

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11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't see the debate as Chubb vs Lawrence.     I see it as Chubb, on a rookie contract for 5-years vs Lawrence on a contract that will likely be at least 5/80 and maybe as high as 5/90.   Lawrence will have all the leverage on the contract. 

 

On that basis,  I'd rather have Chubb.

 

Remember, if you compare Chubb coming out of college with Lawrence coming out of college, Chubb wins all day, every day.  So there's reason to believe Chubb will turn into Lawrence on the NFL level and maybe better.   Chubb is better against the run.

 

Just want to offer a different perspective...

 

I'm an RP fan!     :thmup:

Yeah..If the Colts are set on drafting Chubb then there's no reason to pursue Lawrence in FA. Having Chubb on a cheap contract for 4-5 years instead of giving Lawrence 10 million plus is definitely the route to go. Save that money and use it to fill other holes this team has. Having Simon, Sheard, and Chubb is something I could get behind.

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On 1/27/2018 at 6:09 PM, KING. said:

Cowboys might not be able to afford him.

 

Bill Polian says there is always ways to clear space for a franchise level player. Do the Cowboys consider him that?

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18 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Bill Polian says there is always ways to clear space for a franchise level player. Do the Cowboys consider him that?

 

They could restructure some big contract guys like Smith or Frederick, but that's a bad idea for them right now (it's almost never a good idea, tbh). They will soon be looking at extensions for Elliott, Dak, etc. Can't just push cap hits into future years right now.

 

They could also cut Dez (unlikely), cut Witten (very unlikely), or work out pay reductions for either/both of them (0.01% chance of happening). 

 

Their other big free agent is Anthony Hitchens, who has played every LB position for them over the last two years. He's going to be in my first offseason mock, I hope to post it this week.

 

Main point, the Cowboys will be hard pressed to keep Lawrence this season. To do, they'll have to make some big decisions before March.

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On 1/25/2018 at 11:59 AM, SaturdayAllDay said:

Depends on the tag that they give him (each explained below) 

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/football/bears/ct-what-does-nfl-franchise-tag-mean-20170215-story.html

 

  • "An exclusive franchise tag means a team will pay that player no less than the average of the top five salaries at the player's position, or 120 percent of the player's previous salary, whichever is greater. The player is not allowed to negotiate with other teams." 
  •  
  • "A nonexclusive franchise tag involves the same salary offer as an exclusive franchise tag, only the player can negotiate with other teams. The player's current team can match any offer sheet. If the old team declines to match the offer, it gets two first-round picks from the other team as compensation. This is the more commonly used franchise tag."
  •  
  • "By applying the transition tag, a team offers the player a salary that is the average of the top 10 salaries at his position. That player can negotiate with other teams. The player's original team has the right of first refusal to match any offer given to a transition-tagged player by another team. If the original team decides to retain the player, it must agree to the contract terms offered by the other team. If the original team decides not to match the offer and the player leaves, it receives nothing in compensation. A team can use the transition tag only if it hasn't used the franchise tag in a given offseason." 

 

Regardless of which tag is given, we also have the option to trade for him after he is tagged. 

 

The funny thing with the transition tag is that teams used to beat it by putting "poison pills" in the contract.

 

Like say you are trying to get Demarcus Lawrence from the Cowboys.  Essentially you could offer him a contract terms that he would agree to and the Cowboys have a chance to match.  But to prevent them from matching you write into the contract that if the player has to play more then 4 games in one season in the State of Texas he's owed like 100 million dollars (overstatement but you understand the gist).  

 

I think the NFL created some rules to clamp down on that sort of thing.  But it goes to show just how creative teams are to try and game the system.  

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4 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Like say you are trying to get Demarcus Lawrence from the Cowboys.  Essentially you could offer him a contract terms that he would agree to and the Cowboys have a chance to match.  But to prevent them from matching you write into the contract that if the player has to play more then 4 games in one season in the State of Texas he's owed like 100 million dollars (overstatement but you understand the gist).  

 

I think the NFL created some rules to clamp down on that sort of thing.  But it goes to show just how creative teams are to try and game the system.

 

They got rid of provisions like that. The matching team has to match the principal terms of the contract -- years, value, signing bonuses, I think that's it.

 

What you can still do is frontload the contract with salary or bonus that inflates the Year 1 cap hit, making it difficult for the original team to match without wrecking their cap. So, knowing the Cowboys are close on the cap in 2018, a team could structure Lawrence's first year cap hit to be something like $25m, which the Cowboys would find difficult to absorb. (Side note: the Year 2 salary can't be less than 50% of the Year 1 salary, so the first and second years would be pretty rich.) 

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11 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

The funny thing with the transition tag is that teams used to beat it by putting "poison pills" in the contract.

 

Like say you are trying to get Demarcus Lawrence from the Cowboys.  Essentially you could offer him a contract terms that he would agree to and the Cowboys have a chance to match.  But to prevent them from matching you write into the contract that if the player has to play more then 4 games in one season in the State of Texas he's owed like 100 million dollars (overstatement but you understand the gist).  

 

I think the NFL created some rules to clamp down on that sort of thing.  But it goes to show just how creative teams are to try and game the system.  

 

And the answer is---  VVV

 

3 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

They got rid of provisions like that. The matching team has to match the principal terms of the contract -- years, value, signing bonuses, I think that's it.

 

What you can still do is frontload the contract with salary or bonus that inflates the Year 1 cap hit, making it difficult for the original team to match without wrecking their cap. So, knowing the Cowboys are close on the cap in 2018, a team could structure Lawrence's first year cap hit to be something like $25m, which the Cowboys would find difficult to absorb. (Side note: the Year 2 salary can't be less than 50% of the Year 1 salary, so the first and second years would be pretty rich.) 

 

What I was going  to post,

 

Here's language in the CBA regarding the oild 'poison pill'

 

"No Offer Sheet may contain a Principal Term that would create rights or obligations for the Old Club that differ in any way (including but not limited to the amount of compensation that would be paid, the circumstances in which compensation would be guaranteed, or the circumstances in which other contractual rights would or would not vest) from the rights or obligations that such Principal Term would create for the Club extending the Offer Sheet (i.e., no 'poison pills').

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Chubb and Lawrence on the front line, awesome combo.  Match the tag offer Ballard, let's have an awesome defense for years to come.

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21 hours ago, gacoop1 said:

Chubb and Lawrence on the front line, awesome combo.  Match the tag offer Ballard, let's have an awesome defense for years to come.

 

Chances of getting Lawrence are extremely low.  

 

Cowboys will likely do at the very least a non-exclusive franchise tag which means to offer we'd have to part with 2 first round picks.  

 

And trading for the man would probably cost a similar amount of picks.

 

Unless the Cowboys decide not to tag him and don't have him extended (unlikely) I think we should honestly put any thoughts of getting Lawrence out of our minds.  The chances of that happening are only slightly more likely then the chances that you will win the lottery.  Sure it's fun to consider "what if" but in the end you are just wasting your time pining for something that isn't going to come.  

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