Beginning of the end for New England [Merge]

[dgambill]

1 hour ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Yes a QB transition has many layers . . . 

 

The Pats have always valued the QB backup and since the later 2000s have use high draft stock to have a QB in waiting.  In 2013 TB had a rough start, due both to WR talent and him, with the former being more of the factor imo.  However, that does not change the fact that the Pats might of been more mindful that the next 4 yr backup guy might be the next one. 

 

In come Jimmy G. and looks like, as of week 4 of 2014 (KC blowout), that Jimmy G. will fit right in 4 years from then to take over for TB.  TB has played well causing a log jam at QB.   

 

There is really no true right answer when one tries to compare Jimmy G, moving forward against TB for a few years combined with the next heir, and which one would give the better combined results over the next 15 years.  Yes with the Colts that argument was a tad easier as Luck coming out of college was touted as one of the best in a while, which would be different has the Colts drafted a run of a mill 2nd rounder. 

 

My strongest guess would be that BB is not going anywhere, takes too much time to fire up a team to your way of thinking and install the structure one wishes.  

 

As for TB, he only has 2 more years.  The Pats could ride that out and not resign him. They could extend him for four years to match the next heir and then play it by ear and maybe trade Brady in years 3 & 4, or somewhere in between.

 

As for the article, there may be some truth to it, but for me most of it was a typically media trying to get attention. 

I agree 100%. There was some juice from this trainer being kicked out of the facility and they jumped on a wild story about the whole thing falling apart. NE is one of the most popular teams in the NFL...it was going to get massive attention and clicks.

 

There were some that wanted to hold on to Peyton and draft that heir apparent. Personally I was ready to trade the pick for a massive amount of picks (see what STL got for the second). I also very much liked Russell Wilson and even Kirk Cousins. Watching them play in the Big 10 it was clear they were talented players. The Colts on the other hand unlike the Pats have never spent money on their back up qb. I was hoping Peyton would come back and they would have a replacement growing in the wings behind him. Who better to learn from. That said once Irsay decided to blow up the staff around Peyton it didn't make sense to bring him back. I don't think he wanted to come back and I don't think he wanted to have Luck breathing down his neck either if we went that route. Who knows what would have happened....probably better off for Peyton he went to a good situation...as for us...time will tell. I think you guys will be just fine in the short term...whether you can line up as good a replacement as what Jimmy looks to be....that's a hard one to imagine....but the landscape will be different..who knows maybe you get a new coach and he wants to trade for a qb...only time will tell.

[dodsworth]

5 hours ago, dynasty13 said:

 

As far as the potential coaching moves, it does have a very similar feel to the 2004 season where we knew we'd be losing Weiss and Crennel and heading into the playoffs we felt that this was the 'last hurrah' for the three guys together.

 

I like the way that season ended... ;)

This may definitely be the Pats last hurrah with some smoke rising 

about Belicheck going to the Giants. He saw Gruden getting 10 mil

a year with his resume' so why not cash in? 

 

The Steelers aren't going to be easy to beat a second time, especially

if Brown is healthy.

[Roger]

A continuation of the End Times for the NFL.

 

https://nypost.com/2018/01/08/ratings-for-opening-round-of-nfl-playoffs-flop/

[ReMeDy]

2 hours ago, dodsworth said:

This may definitely be the Pats last hurrah with some smoke rising 

about Belicheck going to the Giants. He saw Gruden getting 10 mil

a year with his resume' so why not cash in? 

 

The Steelers aren't going to be easy to beat a second time, especially

if Brown is healthy.

 

Problem is I read from Kraft that Belichick will "absolutely" be coaching for New England next year. I don't know why Kraft would put that in those terms unless it was true. That would be a total disregard for Belichick's freedom to choose his future destination for the owner to basically announce your head coach's decision before the head coach gets to announce it.

[dodsworth]

2 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

 

Problem is I read from Kraft that Belichick will "absolutely" be coaching for New England next year. I don't know why Kraft would put that in those terms unless it was true. That would be a total disregard for Belichick's freedom to choose his future destination for the owner to basically announce your head coach's decision before the head coach gets to announce it.

They will struggle with a new assistant coaching staff next year and 

two seasons from now Brady will be retired or washed up.

 

I hope Belicheck goes for the cash and bolts anyway.

[GoPats]

19 hours ago, dodsworth said:

This may definitely be the Pats last hurrah with some smoke rising 

about Belicheck going to the Giants. He saw Gruden getting 10 mil

a year with his resume' so why not cash in? 

 

Actually it's pretty widely believed that BB already makes more than $10M per year. 

[GoPats]

 

It's been a few days now, and all three guys (Kraft, Belichick, Brady) have spoken out against the article, both together and individually. While I still acknowledge there may have been some unrest this season, I'd say at this point that the majority of the article was ridiculously overblown, and basically trash journalism intended to generate buzz... and that it did. But even just the undeniable factual inaccuracies (BB never met with Goodell in October) make it hard to give it a lot of merit. 

 

 

[DaveA1102]

54 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

It's been a few days now, and all three guys (Kraft, Belichick, Brady) have spoken out against the article, both together and individually. While I still acknowledge there may have been some unrest this season, I'd say at this point that the majority of the article was ridiculously overblown, and basically trash journalism intended to generate buzz... and that it did. But even just the undeniable factual inaccuracies (BB never met with Goodell in October) make it hard to give it a lot of merit. 

 

 

As much as the guy annoys me (due to success as well as attitude, etc), I would love to read a tell-all autobiography from BB once he is done with coaching.

 

The details on player management, coaching philosophy, people he worked with and his opinions on them as well as his perspective on specific incidents......what a read that would be!

[GoPats]

1 hour ago, DaveA1102 said:

 

As much as the guy annoys me (due to success as well as attitude, etc), I would love to read a tell-all autobiography from BB once he is done with coaching.

 

The details on player management, coaching philosophy, people he worked with and his opinions on them as well as his perspective on specific incidents......what a read that would be!

 

That side of Belichick is always fascinating. You can see it in his pressers, when reporters actually ask football-related questions.   He loves talking about the finer points of the game and if he ever does a "tell-all" I will pre-order that sucker! 

 

[Yehoodi]

On 1/9/2018 at 1:35 PM, dgambill said:

I agree 100%. There was some juice from this trainer being kicked out of the facility and they jumped on a wild story about the whole thing falling apart. NE is one of the most popular teams in the NFL...it was going to get massive attention and clicks.

 

There were some that wanted to hold on to Peyton and draft that heir apparent. Personally I was ready to trade the pick for a massive amount of picks (see what STL got for the second). I also very much liked Russell Wilson and even Kirk Cousins. Watching them play in the Big 10 it was clear they were talented players. The Colts on the other hand unlike the Pats have never spent money on their back up qb. I was hoping Peyton would come back and they would have a replacement growing in the wings behind him. Who better to learn from. That said once Irsay decided to blow up the staff around Peyton it didn't make sense to bring him back. I don't think he wanted to come back and I don't think he wanted to have Luck breathing down his neck either if we went that route. Who knows what would have happened....probably better off for Peyton he went to a good situation...as for us...time will tell. I think you guys will be just fine in the short term...whether you can line up as good a replacement as what Jimmy looks to be....that's a hard one to imagine....but the landscape will be different..who knows maybe you get a new coach and he wants to trade for a qb...only time will tell.

 

Yes it is tough to judge talent coming out of college.  Jimmy G. has played well but less than 8 games and perhaps teams have not gotten the "book" on him yet, we will see how well he does in the next two to four years to get a good feedback on his talent.  I did like him and heard good feedback from folks, so would not have been upset if TB fell off some and we kept Jimmy G.

 

As for the colts transfer of power it just as tough.  Yes, the Colts during most of Peyton's career went with bottom level backups, figuring i assume, that if the backup can only be useful if Peyton is only out a few games (and therefore the team would not get too far behind as a good backup could keep better pace than a lesser backup), they likely figured the chance he is out more than a few games outweighs the money/draft stock going elsewhere.  Surely if the starter is out the entire season, it kind of done and thus the backup really only comes into play if the starter is out only a few games, like Brady last year. 

 

Luck's college resume had some saying he is an once in a generation talent which makes for tough decision to hold on  both the starter and the draftee.  Also, makes the trading down tough as franchise QB are so very valuable and older starters have a shelf life.  I have no real opinion on the matter, but could easily understand the theory of keeping Peyton for 3-4 years, get a solid 2-3 rounders at QB and fill in the team with the extra draft picks.   

 

 

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Yes it is tough to judge talent coming out of college.  Jimmy G. has played well but less than 8 games and perhaps teams have not gotten the "book" on him yet, we will see how well he does in the next two to four years to get a good feedback on his talent.  I did like him and heard good feedback from folks, so would not have been upset if TB fell off some and we kept Jimmy G.

 

As for the colts transfer of power it just as tough.  Yes, the Colts during most of Peyton's career went with bottom level backups, figuring i assume, that if the backup can only be useful if Peyton is only out a few games (and therefore the team would not get too far behind as a good backup could keep better pace than a lesser backup), they likely figured the chance he is out more than a few games outweighs the money/draft stock going elsewhere.  Surely if the starter is out the entire season, it kind of done and thus the backup really only comes into play if the starter is out only a few games, like Brady last year. 

 

Luck's college resume had some saying he is an once in a generation talent which makes for tough decision to hold on  both the starter and the draftee.  Also, makes the trading down tough as franchise QB are so very valuable and older starters have a shelf life.  I have no real opinion on the matter, but could easily understand the theory of keeping Peyton for 3-4 years, get a solid 2-3 rounders at QB and fill in the team with the extra draft picks.   

 

 

The team had medical and figured Peyton was a huge risk not to play again...I can't blame them....even if me personally figure he has beat the odds to be who he is...guys of that stature there is something that makes them special and that is what will push him to be great again. I think we could have reloaded around him with Polian and company we would be right back in the playoffs and long term we might not win a SB but we would still win our division and make another run at a title. Doubtful Peyton would have been better off....hard to imagine anyone having a better 4 years than he had there at the end. Selfish me just enjoyed watching him compete and felt like his talent around him was falling off and if we reloaded with those picks and had someone like Wilson waiting in the wings and invested in a backup instead of 6th and 7th rd picks it could have transitioned well.

 

The Colts offense was so predicated on pre-snap and post snap adjustments it was impossible to really have someone be successful stepping in and running Peyton's system. It would have to be heavily modified so I understand not having a great back up....but part of me still wishes we kept Peyton and seen if we could have put together a team to make one more run at a SB with the pot of gold that would have come from dealing Luck. Of course now with Peyton retired and hopefully Luck will be healthy again next year....the choice doesn't hurt quite as much.

[Yehoodi]

3 hours ago, dgambill said:

The team had medical and figured Peyton was a huge risk not to play again...I can't blame them....even if me personally figure he has beat the odds to be who he is...guys of that stature there is something that makes them special and that is what will push him to be great again. I think we could have reloaded around him with Polian and company we would be right back in the playoffs and long term we might not win a SB but we would still win our division and make another run at a title. Doubtful Peyton would have been better off....hard to imagine anyone having a better 4 years than he had there at the end. Selfish me just enjoyed watching him compete and felt like his talent around him was falling off and if we reloaded with those picks and had someone like Wilson waiting in the wings and invested in a backup instead of 6th and 7th rd picks it could have transitioned well.

 

The Colts offense was so predicated on pre-snap and post snap adjustments it was impossible to really have someone be successful stepping in and running Peyton's system. It would have to be heavily modified so I understand not having a great back up....but part of me still wishes we kept Peyton and seen if we could have put together a team to make one more run at a SB with the pot of gold that would have come from dealing Luck. Of course now with Peyton retired and hopefully Luck will be healthy again next year....the choice doesn't hurt quite as much.

 

Yes one never knows, I think the Colts would of kept it going the way they were going before 2011 and they and the fans would of had some fun between 2012-2015. And yes you may have capture another ring.

 

I agree, if i were a fan of Indy I would not try to extrapolate the success in Denver to what might of happened in Indy as the other 52 players are different and that Denver D was certainly an all worldly D.  It is not to say the Colts may not of had the same results, just done differently.

 

And I agree, now that Peyton is retired and Luck is only 28, moving forward as a fan, things look a lot more secure than perhaps the "what ifs" of a another QB chosen in a lower round in 2012 draft. 

[Reidm]

The Titans plane just got delayed 2 hours because another plane slid off the runway. They had to sit in their plane for 2 hours waiting. Idk about you but sitting in a cramped plane for 2 hours sure would make me ache. This has Bill belichick written all over it that darn cheater!!! DEPLANE GATE! 

 

 

 

I just wanted to see what all the rave is with typing insane theories in this forum. Surprisingly fun

[Chrisaaron1023]

7 minutes ago, Yehoodi said:

 

Yes one never knows, I think the Colts would of kept it going the way they were going before 2011 and they and the fans would of had some fun between 2012-2015. And yes you may have capture another ring

Meh.. 2010 was "tough" it looked like the end was near with that core. The lost to the Jets in the wild card was a fitting end 

[superrep1967]

On 1/5/2018 at 2:14 AM, Luck 4 president said:

Lots of interesting things in the article that was just released. Idk if they’re true but I hope they are for our sake. 

The article summarized:

Brady and his trainer have created friction between the team and Belichick.

Brady viewed Garoppolo as a threat and forced a trade. He refused to help Garoppolo at practice and refused him treatment with his trainer. Kraft sided with Brady over Belichick.

Belichick sees the end coming for the dynasty and is now prepping his assistants for HC jobs (McDaniels and Patricia) and chose to trade Garoppolo to the 9ers because he wants to see him succeed under shanahan even though he could have gotten much more out of him. He wanted to keep him but kraft sided with Brady on the issue.

That sounds true to me and Brady is getting worried about the end because of his age. 

[eseae]

On ‎1‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 1:35 PM, dgambill said:

I agree 100%. There was some juice from this trainer being kicked out of the facility and they jumped on a wild story about the whole thing falling apart. NE is one of the most popular teams in the NFL...it was going to get massive attention and clicks.

 

...

 

what alternate reality/fantasy world do you live in? the whole country hates the pats..... go on any teams message board anywhere, there is a common thread...everyone outside new England hates the pats... everyone.

 

THATS why it was gonna get clicks, because people saw the headline and went "really?? it might be over soon? thank god, I have to read this!"

 

they certainly looked like a team in trouble last night....

 

they are on the cusp of winning a sixth SB, and we are waiting to find out who our new HC is and when our savior QB-who turned out to be pretty mediocre- is going to play again.

 

I wish the colts had the patriot's problems.

 

[dgambill]

2 hours ago, eseae said:

 

what alternate reality/fantasy world do you live in? the whole country hates the pats..... go on any teams message board anywhere, there is a common thread...everyone outside new England hates the pats... everyone.

 

THATS why it was gonna get clicks, because people saw the headline and went "really?? it might be over soon? thank god, I have to read this!"

 

they certainly looked like a team in trouble last night....

 

they are on the cusp of winning a sixth SB, and we are waiting to find out who our new HC is and when our savior QB-who turned out to be pretty mediocre- is going to play again.

 

I wish the colts had the patriot's problems.

 

They have one of the biggest fan bases in the NFL...outside Dallas I dare say #2...so yes they are hated and that creates interest but also because they have so many fans as well. Anything NE gets attention.

[George Peterson]

On 1/10/2018 at 12:16 PM, GoPats said:

 

That side of Belichick is always fascinating. You can see it in his pressers, when reporters actually ask football-related questions.   He loves talking about the finer points of the game and if he ever does a "tell-all" I will pre-order that sucker! 

 

Any fan of football, no matter the laundry they root for, would preorder that sucker.  That is perhaps the greatest football mind of our generation, certainy the pre-eminent one.  If he publishes, and I really hope he does, his book instantly becomes required reading in every high school football program in America.

[George Peterson]

On 1/12/2018 at 11:11 PM, superrep1967 said:

That sounds true to me and Brady is getting worried about the end because of his age. 

 

It doesn't sound like Brady to me, to be a guy whining to the coach or the owner.  Brady does his talking on the field and the sidelines, and rarely in the media.  Whining to ownership in order to keep his job doesn't seem like the way he'd choose to win that competition.

 

The problem here is that we're ascribing a decision to conspiracy that could be easily attributed to practicality.  Brady is still playing at an MVP caliber level.  At least 28 other teams would KILL to have a player of that caliber as their starting quarterback -- the Colts obviously included. 

 

The fact of the matter is that unlike Payton, Brady hasn't really slowed down yet.  There's no chronic injury taking the guy out for an entire season and limiting his performance when he comes back.  By all outward appearances Brady at age 40 is just as capable as he was at age 30.  However he manages that, I have no idea, but it's true.

 

The so-called trade rumors are based on smoke -- a realistic but so-far-unrealized fear that he probably will break down at some point.  That would be a heck of a reason to get rid of probably the greatest quarterback in his generation if not in NFL history, while he's still getting it done at an elite level.

 

Again, the guy's not just still good, he's still one of the very best QB's in the entire NFL and has very few peers right now, especially with Luck and Rodgers injured and Roethlisberger potentially retiring.  The guy may be 40, but is still fully capable of winning a team a Championship -- QED.  He's still turning scrubs into borderline elite receivers too.  
 

And he's a guy who'll take a hometown discount in order to allow his franchise as much cap room as possible to build a winner around him.

 

Why the heck would you deal that?  No seriously, why would you get rid of that guy?

 

I mean it's one thing to cut a guy who's slowing down.  Cutting a guy merely because you THINK he MIGHT slow down, EVENTUALLY?  Uhh...

 

The whole Garoppolo thing just boils down to bad timing.  The team thought Brady would slow down so brought in a potential heir.  Brady did NOT slow down, so the team decided not to jump off the gravy train yet.  Seems like a logical decision from my perspective -- or at least a defensible one, not requiring any whispers of conspiracy or crying to ownership to figure out what they're up to.

 

Pats fans probably aren't even worried about this for as long as Brady continues to demonstrate no actual signs of regression.  If the Pats have 2 years to bring in a guy in this year's draft and start training him to take over, that's probably plenty of time, especially if Belichick stays in harness.  After all, look what Belichick did with Matt Cassell.  It sometimes feels like that guy can literally do magic.

[Yehoodi]

On 1/12/2018 at 5:10 PM, Chrisaaron1023 said:

Meh.. 2010 was "tough" it looked like the end was near with that core. The lost to the Jets in the wild card was a fitting end 

 

Agreed, from about 2008-2012 the Pats were in transition with, imo, the 2009 being the weakest version of the Pats in the Brady-BB era.  Some of our draft picks/FAs 2006-2009 ish did not stick and so it took some time to get back on our feet.  Finally some started to stick around 2010 and these players have matured to the present team 2014-2017.  

 

Regarding that Jets playoff loss, altho we beat them 45-3 earlier in the season, the Jets had beaten us 28-14 in week 2.  We kind of overachieved that year in the regular season. 

[Yehoodi]

On 1/14/2018 at 7:10 PM, eseae said:

 

what alternate reality/fantasy world do you live in? the whole country hates the pats..... go on any teams message board anywhere, there is a common thread...everyone outside new England hates the pats... everyone.

 

THATS why it was gonna get clicks, because people saw the headline and went "really?? it might be over soon? thank god, I have to read this!"

 

they certainly looked like a team in trouble last night....

 

they are on the cusp of winning a sixth SB, and we are waiting to find out who our new HC is and when our savior QB-who turned out to be pretty mediocre- is going to play again.

 

I wish the colts had the patriot's problems.

 

 

Agreed, there are many fans that do not like the Pats.  At the same time there are folks outside of NE that want to get on the wagon, just like any other team that is good in a sport.  Not sure how many Browns fan there are outside of Ohio.  

 

With the combined interest there will be attention and clicks.

 

Surely other teams messages boards have fans not liking the Pats but that is likely due to the fact that most folks who frequent message boards are fans of the team of the message board.   so the percentage is low of out of town fans on message boards.