Every Colts fan should be hoping for Toub. Here's why..

[Defjamz26]

1 hour ago, HectorRoberts said:

I don’t want a proven head coach. Every decent proven head coach is a head coach right now. If they aren’t a head coach at the moment there is a reason why! Why would we fire Chuck Pagano who “lead us to the afc championship” to hire someone else’s garbage and recently fired head coach? If we are going to wipe the slay clean and fire chuck then we need to find someone who can take us to the level chuck couldn’t, not hire someone else that couldn’t take his team to the next level either.

Thank you. I too believe this whole notion of us having to get someone who has coached in the NFL is ridiculous. Some people even want Harbaugh as if he didn’t lose the locker room in San Fran. I also don’t want the flavor of the month hot coordinator who has a top offense/defense. That’s how you end up with Mike McCoy and Gus Bradley. I want an outside of the box hire like the Rams and Eagles had. The mistake with Pagano wasn’t that he was a 1st time HC. It was that he was a bad hire who didn’t have the accolades for the job, to the point that even he was surprised when Indy called. You hire one of these retreads like Childress or Turner, or a top coordinator riding the coattails of a top team unit and you’re likely to fail.

[zibby43]

17 hours ago, Dark Superman said:

Hiring an STC to a Head Coaching role scares me to death.

 

John Harbaugh started out as a Special Teams coach.

 

Out of all the coordinators, great ST minds often turn out to be some of the best head coaches.  Shouldn't scare you one bit.

[krunk]

18 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Thank you. I too believe this whole notion of us having to get someone who has coached in the NFL is ridiculous. Some people even want Harbaugh as if he didn’t lose the locker room in San Fran. I also don’t want the flavor of the month hot coordinator who has a top offense/defense. That’s how you end up with Mike McCoy and Gus Bradley. I want an outside of the box hire like the Rams and Eagles had. The mistake with Pagano wasn’t that he was a 1st time HC. It was that he was a bad hire who didn’t have the accolades for the job, to the point that even he was surprised when Indy called. You hire one of these retreads like Childress or Turner, or a top coordinator riding the coattails of a top team unit and you’re likely to fail.

And this is coming from the man who banged on the table for John Gruden(an experienced NFL coach) and tried to dismiss every single criticism made against him?  But somehow Harbaugh is a problem for you?  Did Gruden lose any locker rooms?  You don't want the flavor of the month OC, but you want a special teams coach? Not only that but then you go and try to hype up his elite coaching of special teams to build false value.   You don't even have a good defense for that.    And tell us what would be the difference between Pederson and Nagy?   When did Nagy become a flavor of the month? Why is one outside of the box but the other isn't?   As if people all over the league are hyping up Matt Nagy.     I'm sure if he's an option on the table for Ballard he didn't just pull it out of the back of his behind.    

[krunk]

18 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Thank you. I too believe this whole notion of us having to get someone who has coached in the NFL is ridiculous. Some people even want Harbaugh as if he didn’t lose the locker room in San Fran. I also don’t want the flavor of the month hot coordinator who has a top offense/defense. That’s how you end up with Mike McCoy and Gus Bradley. I want an outside of the box hire like the Rams and Eagles had. The mistake with Pagano wasn’t that he was a 1st time HC. It was that he was a bad hire who didn’t have the accolades for the job, to the point that even he was surprised when Indy called. You hire one of these retreads like Childress or Turner, or a top coordinator riding the coattails of a top team unit and you’re likely to fail.

This isn't making sense.   You want somebody who is outside of the box which basically means they won't have very many "accolades", but then you say Pagano didn't make sense because he didn't have any "accolades"?  Huh?

[lollygagger8]

I don't think Mack has the vision or durability to be a 3rd down back. But that's my opinion. 

[OLD FAN MAN]

23 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Chud likes getting QB's injured, he needs to go.

i concur

[Defjamz26]

5 hours ago, krunk said:

This isn't making sense.   You want somebody who is outside of the box which basically means they won't have very many "accolades", but then you say Pagano didn't make sense because he didn't have any "accolades"?  Huh?

Out of the box, as in outside of the traditional line of thinking when it comes to coordinators. The traditional hiring process is to take a hot name offensive or defensive coordinator coming off a good season and make him HC which often fails (i.e. Gus Bradley, Mike McCoy,etc...). Or in some cases a guy who has traditional football schemes because he’s a retread if some old system like Air Coryell, etc...

 

I want a candidate outside of that typical line of thinking. I don’t necessarily care about accolades. Pagano was the defensive coordinator of a talented Ravens defense that was good when he was still just a DB coach, with the idea probably being that he’s bring a tough defense to Indy. I don’t want to go down that road again. Hopefully that clears up any confusion 

[Defjamz26]

21 hours ago, krunk said:

And this is coming from the man who banged on the table for John Gruden(an experienced NFL coach) and tried to dismiss every single criticism made against him?  But somehow Harbaugh is a problem for you?  Did Gruden lose any locker rooms?  You don't want the flavor of the month OC, but you want a special teams coach? Not only that but then you go and try to hype up his elite coaching of special teams to build false value.   You don't even have a good defense for that.    And tell us what would be the difference between Pederson and Nagy?   When did Nagy become a flavor of the month? Why is one outside of the box but the other isn't?   As if people all over the league are hyping up Matt Nagy.     I'm sure if he's an option on the table for Ballard he didn't just pull it out of the back of his behind.    

No one started mentioning Nagy until a few weeks ago when he took over play calling duties for KC and the offense got better.

 

And Gruden was a better coach than people give him credit for. But people won’t hear anything else besides “won with Dungy’s team, lights up when there’s cameras around, Bucs imploded after the SB”. Harbaugh couldn’t handle a locker room full of grown men because of his personality. Gruden can. He might have been a hard *** but he got results.

 

And my defense for Toub is simple. He’s not just some guy who had a hot offense or defense for 2 years and is just going to get handed a job. He’s had too STs unit wherever he has gone, has interviewed for jobs in the past, and people have said he’s a guy that will command respect.

[Freenyfan102]

On 12/15/2017 at 10:22 AM, 21isSuperman said:

Jim Harbaugh did it and it worked out pretty well for him and the Ravens.  Plus, Toub has a lot of experience and was very involved on both sides of the ball, so I wouldn't be overly concerned about that.

Who was playing for Baltimore at that time, not hard coach a roster who already set and Harbaugh you last name too.

[chrisfarley]

Not so main stream possibilities (from a name stand-point):

 

Vrabel, Harold Goodwin, Matt LaFluer Paul Geunther, Frank Reich, Steve Wilks

 

more main stream names

 

Josh McDaniels, Pat Shurmur, Jim Harbaugh, & last but not least 

 Would Gruden be real chucky or fake chucky?

 

stretches:

 

Taub (but i think ballard might pull the trigger if he gets an ok from irsay) 

 

[NewColtsFan]

On 12/15/2017 at 4:42 AM, Indeee said:

Over the past few seasons I think we'd all agree that the Colts have had a lot of injuries minor and major. This almost always equates to "strength and conditioning". 

 

Amongst all the uncertainties regarding Toub potentially becoming a HC, this guy does have an almost stellar track record from "strength and conditioning" experience. I believe if hired his mark in this area will be felt in this area 10 fold and lord knows we need it. Not to mention, he may even convince Nagy to come along, if Nagy doesn't get offered a HC position elsewhere and keep this in mind for all you Marlon Mack supporters.

 

Kansas City has 90% always believed in a 3 down back. Virtually no time share here. So under Toub Mack will get his shot to do it all.

 

 

 

 

 

Respectfully,    I don't find this to be a compelling argument for hiring Toub.     His background as a S/C coach is nice,  but not enough to tip any scales.     You can hire one of those.

 

If Ballard hires Toub, I will support the hiring because I like and trust Ballard.

 

But I find the choice to be a gamble,  and it comes at a time when I think the Colts can LEAST afford to gamble.

 

Do thee Colts really want to entrust the next X number of Luck's career to another first time HC?     Someone who might be average,  or even above averge,  but not perhaps good enough?      With Luck as the QB,  wouldn't you want someone who has a background as an offensive expert?      I'm not naming names,  we all know them,  but someone who has either been a HC before with an offensive background,  or a current coordinator who has been highly successful as well.      Now I grant you that person doesn't have a track record as an HC,   but at least he's got a track record as a successful OC.      And that's got to be worth....   something....

 

If we hire Toub and he doesn't work out --- not that he'd be bad,  just that he's not very good --- then we've wasted X number of more years of Luck's career.    Can we really afford to do that?     Personally,   I don't think so....

 

[hoosierhawk]

38 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Respectfully,    I don't find this to be a compelling argument for hiring Toub.     His background as a S/C coach is nice,  but not enough to tip any scales.     You can hire one of those.

 

If Ballard hires Toub, I will support the hiring because I like and trust Ballard.

 

But I find the choice to be a gamble,  and it comes at a time when I think the Colts can LEAST afford to gamble.

 

Do thee Colts really want to entrust the next X number of Luck's career to another first time HC?     Someone who might be average,  or even above averge,  but not perhaps good enough?      With Luck as the QB,  wouldn't you want someone who has a background as an offensive expert?      I'm not naming names,  we all know them,  but someone who has either been a HC before with an offensive background,  or a current coordinator who has been highly successful as well.      Now I grant you that person doesn't have a track record as an HC,   but at least he's got a track record as a successful OC.      And that's got to be worth....   something....

 

If we hire Toub and he doesn't work out --- not that he'd be bad,  just that he's not very good --- then we've wasted X number of more years of Luck's career.    Can we really afford to do that?     Personally,   I don't think so....

 

Are you saying don't hire Toubeven though he may be good but not good enough? guess that means we only hire a coach who is going to be really, really good. Great idea but how can you be sure what hire would be really good?

[NewColtsFan]

11 minutes ago, hoosierhawk said:

Are you saying don't hire Toubeven though he may be good but not good enough? guess that means we only hire a coach who is going to be really, really good. Great idea but how can you be sure what hire would be really good?

 

I think the hire has been complicated by what has happened the last six years, and niw with Luck's injury.

 

I guess my argument AGAINST Toub is this....   he is an unknown quantity.    He might be great.    But he might also be in over his head.    Or perhaps somewhere in between...   can the Colts really afford to gamble with Luck's career --- again?

 

Two unknown head coach hires?  Back to back?     That's real high stakes poker.   You've got to be right.    To be wrong means the Colts will have wasted a great opportunity to win with Luck.

 

I don't envy Ballard or Irsay...   I think this will be an incredibly difficult hire.

 

[crazycolt1]

7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think the hire has been complicated by what has happened the last six years, and niw with Luck's injury.

 

I guess my argument AGAINST Toub is this....   he is an unknown quantity.    He might be great.    But he might also be in over his head.    Or perhaps somewhere in between...   can the Colts really afford to gamble with Luck's career --- again?

 

Two unknown head coach hires?  Back to back?     That's real high stakes poker.   You've got to be right.    To be wrong means the Colts will have wasted a great opportunity to win with Luck.

 

I don't envy Ballard or Irsay...   I think this will be an incredibly difficult hire.

 

Anytime a new head coach is hired it is a big gamble. Right now a new head coach is at the mercy of how well Ballard drafts and what free agents he hires. Throw in the fact of all new coordinators and it is a recipe for disaster, greatness or just plain average.

That is why I have an issue with firing Pagano. He has proved he can coach with the right players and talent regardless of what some think.

None of us are experts in what it takes to be a head coach for the NFL. We have opinions but all those can be changed after what some media hack writes.

Do we go with an unexperienced head coach? Do we go the retread route? Do we put our future with someone who has some success but ended up being fired over his coaching decisions? (is that any different than Pagano?)

As it stands right now none of us have a clue.

I do know one thing. No matter who is hired there will be a backlash from those who didn't get "their man" hired.

This season has brought out the pure haters to the point they forgot the NFL is designed to be what it is. This 'I want it my way and I want it now' attitude is an epidemic and has taken the fanatic to the extreme. It has brought normally good fans to the point of hating on those who have different opinions or point of views.

You are 100% correct. It's envy with a capital E.

 

 

 

[NewColtsFan]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Anytime a new head coach is hired it is a big gamble. Right now a new head coach is at the mercy of how well Ballard drafts and what free agents he hires. Throw in the fact of all new coordinators and it is a recipe for disaster, greatness or just plain average.

That is why I have an issue with firing Pagano. He has proved he can coach with the right players and talent regardless of what some think.

None of us are experts in what it takes to be a head coach for the NFL. We have opinions but all those can be changed after what some media hack writes.

Do we go with an unexperienced head coach? Do we go the retread route? Do we put our future with someone who has some success but ended up being fired over his coaching decisions? (is that any different than Pagano?)

As it stands right now none of us have a clue.

I do know one thing. No matter who is hired there will be a backlash from those who didn't get "their man" hired.

This season has brought out the pure haters to the point they forgot the NFL is designed to be what it is. This 'I want it my way and I want it now' attitude is an epidemic and has taken the fanatic to the extreme. It has brought normally good fans to the point of hating on those who have different opinions or point of views.

You are 100% correct. It's envy with a capital E.

 

 

 

 

I would say in 15 and 16 I made a huge number of posts that said roughly this....

 

Be careful what you wish for,  you might just get it.     That firing Pagano was absolutely no guarantee that his replacement would be better.     That hiring a top coach is one of the hardest things to do in sports,  not just the NFL, but all sports.     Great coaches are hard to find.

 

If I had just $1 for every post I made like that,  I'd be rich!

 

And yet.....

 

I can't support Pagano simply because we're afraid that his replacement might not pan out.   I don't want to live in fear.    I wish there was an obvious replacement out there,  but as of now,  I don't see one.     But that doesn't mean one might not emerge in the next month.     I think one (or possibly more) will.      I trust Ballard.    I believe Irsay will exhaust every opportunity to look for an upgrade.     I'm willing to give them a chance.  

 

I thought McVeigh would be too young.     I thought Shannahan would be good.    McVeigh inherited a much better team so he looks like a great choice.    Shannahan inherited a train wreck,  but they're playing better at the end of the year than the beginning, so maybe he's on the right track.    I thought Adam Gase would be a very good coach.   He had a good first year.     And a not so good second year.     Funny what happens when your starting QB goes down with a season long injury.       I thought Mike Zimmer would be good at Minnesota,  but not this good.     But he's got a lot of talent to coach.     Finding the right guy can be tricky....

 

I hope we find the right guy......   I think we will all know in about one month.

  

[hoosierhawk]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 11:53 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

I think the hire has been complicated by what has happened the last six years, and niw with Luck's injury.

 

I guess my argument AGAINST Toub is this....   he is an unknown quantity.    He might be great.    But he might also be in over his head.    Or perhaps somewhere in between...   can the Colts really afford to gamble with Luck's career --- again?

 

Two unknown head coach hires?  Back to back?     That's real high stakes poker.   You've got to be right.    To be wrong means the Colts will have wasted a great opportunity to win with Luck.

 

I don't envy Ballard or Irsay...   I think this will be an incredibly difficult hire.

 

I agree that it is much easier to pick guys you don't want but my question is if not Toub then who?

[BOTT]

On 12/15/2017 at 8:31 AM, Dark Superman said:

Hiring an STC to a Head Coaching role scares me to death.

Why does that scare you more than hiring a OC or DC?

[Superman]

On 12/16/2017 at 6:04 PM, Defjamz26 said:

The traditional hiring process is to take a hot name offensive or defensive coordinator coming off a good season and make him HC which often fails (i.e. Gus Bradley, Mike McCoy,etc...

 

It often works, as well. 

 

Dan Quinn, Mike McCarthy, Sean Payton, Mike Tomlin (one year as a coordinator), etc. I'm leaving off this year's hot head coaches, like Sean McVay and Doug Pederson (in Year 2) just because they only have one year of promising results.

 

More often than not, a new head coach is being hired from another NFL staff where he was a coordinator. Every other year, you'll get a guy coming from college football. There will be a retread or two. Sometimes, you'll get the rare retread who is coming back from college, like Pete Carroll. But the majority of NFL hires are from NFL staffs, and 90% of them were coordinators.

 

All of these talent pools have successes and failures. None of them are right or wrong. What matters is the coach, not where he comes from. 

[Superman]

2 hours ago, hoosierhawk said:

I agree that it is much easier to pick guys you don't want but my question is if not Toub then who?

 

Assuming Pagano is out, I want the Colts to cast a wide net  and interview a bunch of candidates with various backgrounds and levels of experience. I want them to do that free from prejudice and with no trace of stubborn refusal to even consider potentially qualified candidates because of superficial issues.

 

Then I want them to whittle that list down to the best two or three candidates, and eventually settle on the best/right man for the job. I don't want them to rush through that process based on artificial and unnecessary deadlines. 

 

If they do that, I'm confident they can find a good coach to take the job. If that process leads them to Toub, I'm all for it. He's not at the top of my list because he doesn't fit my preferred profile for a head coaching candidate, but I'm not going to close my mind to the possibility that he can be a good head coach.

[IkeAramba]

There's an interesting recent article on special teams coaches moving on to be head coaches afterwards which has some rather impressive names on the list - Marv Levy, Dick Vermeil, Mike Ditka, Bill Cowher and Bill Belichick.

 

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/nfl-head-coaching-openings-special-teams-dick-vermeil-john-harbaugh-bill-cowher-mike-ditka-121615

 

There's a quote from Marv Levy which highlights the benefits of hiring a special teams coach - "You got to work in every aspect coaching and evaluating offensive and defensive players, I got to work with just about every position."

 

I know there appears to be a call to get in someone with head coaching experience, but I expect Gruden, Dungy & Cowher aren't interested in leaving their TV gig and the idea of getting in an experienced head coach who would be available (think Jeff Fisher or Marvin Lewis, maybe John Fox) really doesn't appeal to me.  If Toub is the choice I'm OK with it.

 

There was another interesting comment in the article about hiring offensive or defensive coordinators:

 

"Excluding Harbaugh, there were 67 head coaches hired over the past decade who were offensive or defensive assistants. Sixty-four of them had play-calling responsibilities as a coordinator. The overwhelming majority of those with four years or less handling those duties failed as head coaches. The success rate of more experienced assistants was significantly higher."

Edited December 20, 2017 by IkeAramba
Added an additional quote

[King Colt]

The goal of a new head coach above all is to get this team believing in themselves. This deflation we witnessed in 2017 is as important as talent. Win for 30 minutes then disappear happens for a reason especially when it becomes a trademark of a team. It is difficult to understand why Miami beat the Pats when the talent level is so obvious but it happened and to many it was not a surprise. Getting to a SB is very hard to do but every years two teams do just that but getting back to the SB is even more difficult. So what is it? Talent? Training? Conditioning? Intelligence? Coaching? Comradery? Practicing? Attitude? Yes.