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Joe Philbin


a06cc

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43 sacks for Brissett so far? Granted Brissett stands in the pocket like a lead statue but the OL has to be holding the record for consecutive years of not being there. By the way, I think Brissett is overrated and his press conference are showing him to be not much more than a smart butt that is not overly concerned that they are losing.

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Correct me if I’m wrong but haven’t we had the highest or nearly the highest amount of O line changes/combos for the past few seasons? I feel like we’ve had some injury issues on the line.

 

I defer to the O line gurus here but I’m not quite ready to throw in the towel if the above holds true.

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49 minutes ago, a06cc said:

Wonder what some of you think about him. For me I don’t understand his coaching. Each year he has shuffled the offensive line. Why mess with something that was getting better at the end of last season? 

 

If Philbin is changing the lineup at a late point there's a good reason,  even if it's not publicly known by the fans.    Coaches don't make moves like that without a good reason.

 

Philbin has a great reputation league wide.    After his stop in Miami, he was pursued by a number of other teams before joining the Colts.    Irsay was thrillled to announce the signing.

 

I don't know why the line has regressed so much, but there's no denying it has.   But it's not because Philbin doesn't know what he's doing.   Good coaches don't get stupid over night.    Maybe we will find out after the season...   maybe...

 

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Why don’t we teach our offense how to counter the blitz by running more quick slants and crosses (noticed at least a half a dozen times where we get off coverage with no linebacker sitting in the hole and our receivers run routes into the coverage and our QB takes the sack)???  Why don’t be develop a few audibles to “hot” into some quick slants to save our QB from taking those sacks & hits???  

 

I truly believe that would take away a few of the sacks we end up taking.  Then it’ll slow down the defense from coming so hard off the edges at us. Help our OLine get a little confidence and take a little pressure off of them...  How can an NFL quality OC like Chud not see & implement this stuff???  What are our go to hot routes?  Deep posts?  Deep comebacks?  

 

Can someone with better knowledge of the situation tell me if I’m way off base and asking for the impossible or I’m seeing openings that aren’t really there?

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52 minutes ago, King Colt said:

43 sacks for Brissett so far? Granted Brissett stands in the pocket like a lead statue but the OL has to be holding the record for consecutive years of not being there. By the way, I think Brissett is overrated and his press conference are showing him to be not much more than a smart butt that is not overly concerned that they are losing.

Brissett is not the problem the rest of the team and coaching staff is.

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Philbin did have a good reputation but it's toast now.  His time with us and his inability to find good OL through the draft is unbelievable.  Kelly was easy and I'll give him Good because he has developed into a starter but everyone else he hand a hand in drafting have pretty much not worked out.  And yes he had input on all those picks including Clarke and Banner and Haag and on top of that he can't even figure out where to find their best position.  If Chuck goes it's a new staff anyway but if he stays he and Chud should be the first to be shown the door IMO. 

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6 hours ago, IinD said:

I'm not going to defend the guy seeing as our oline is terrible, but I'm not sure what you can do with guys like Vujo, Haeg and Goode as what you have to work with.

 

They're not good, flat out.

 

 

Good is not the problem but haeg and vujo they need to go

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4 minutes ago, pgt_rob said:

I thought he was good last year? I think with the loss of Mewhort and missing Kelly for a bit really screwed us. We need some more talent to make his job easier.

 

Yes, and that answers the OP's question.  He's shuffling the line because he has to.  Mewhort was hurt all year and tried to play through it.  Kelly has been in and out.  Good was hurt, Clark regressed.  Look at the starters at then end of the game last week.  Except for AC, not exactly a wealth of high draft picks. 

 

Throw in a young QB who doesn't fully get the offense and tries to extend plays and you have the perfect storm.

 

I'm no Oline expert, but IMHO Philbin has done a pretty good job all things considered.

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11 hours ago, Smoke317 said:

Why don’t we teach our offense how to counter the blitz by running more quick slants and crosses (noticed at least a half a dozen times where we get off coverage with no linebacker sitting in the hole and our receivers run routes into the coverage and our QB takes the sack)???  Why don’t be develop a few audibles to “hot” into some quick slants to save our QB from taking those sacks & hits???  

 

I truly believe that would take away a few of the sacks we end up taking.  Then it’ll slow down the defense from coming so hard off the edges at us. Help our OLine get a little confidence and take a little pressure off of them...  How can an NFL quality OC like Chud not see & implement this stuff???  What are our go to hot routes?  Deep posts?  Deep comebacks?  

 

Can someone with better knowledge of the situation tell me if I’m way off base and asking for the impossible or I’m seeing openings that aren’t really there?

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12 hours ago, a06cc said:

Wonder what some of you think about him. For me I don’t understand his coaching. Each year he has shuffled the offensive line. Why mess with something that was getting better at the end of last season? 

He changes the line due to injuries. The Colts lineman have been hurt a very high percentage of game availability for awhile. He wants to put the best five available for each game.

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I have no idea where Philbin's OLine reputation came from. If you check his resume he really has very little experience. 

 

That said the biggest problem on the Oline is they do not know who to block or pickup on any blitz. That is not talent. That is pure coaching. The week before our bye JB was hit by the 2 outside linebackers at the same time both came completely free. On the play the defense rushed 5 against our 5 linemen. both tackles instead of picking up the outside linebackers helped double on the inside tackles. 

 

If you watch this team game after game it is incredible how many times the defense gets a free rusher. 

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12 hours ago, a06cc said:

Wonder what some of you think about him. For me I don’t understand his coaching. Each year he has shuffled the offensive line. Why mess with something that was getting better at the end of last season? 

 

Philbin has been a disappointment. When we signed him, I thought he would make drastic improvements for our offensive line. 

 

I would assume he will be gone at the end of the season with all the other coaches. Barring something dramatic, I believe we will see an entire coaching overhaul. 

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2 hours ago, Smonroe said:

 

Yes, and that answers the OP's question.  He's shuffling the line because he has to.  Mewhort was hurt all year and tried to play through it.  Kelly has been in and out.  Good was hurt, Clark regressed.  Look at the starters at then end of the game last week.  Except for AC, not exactly a wealth of high draft picks. 

 

Throw in a young QB who doesn't fully get the offense and tries to extend plays and you have the perfect storm.

 

I'm no Oline expert, but IMHO Philbin has done a pretty good job all things considered.

The Oline is terrible, but Philbin has done a pretty good job.  Colts have missed the playoffs three years straight, but there are those who say Pagano has done a pretty good job. 

 

If you want the Colts to do better, Irsay needs to make changes.

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12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

If Philbin is changing the lineup at a late point there's a good reason,  even if it's not publicly known by the fans.    Coaches don't make moves like that without a good reason.

 

Philbin has a great reputation league wide.    After his stop in Miami, he was pursued by a number of other teams before joining the Colts.    Irsay was thrillled to announce the signing.

 

I don't know why the line has regressed so much, but there's no denying it has.   But it's not because Philbin doesn't know what he's doing.   Good coaches don't get stupid over night.    Maybe we will find out after the season...   maybe...

 

i wonder if there is a scheme issue between the type of plays that Chud runs and the schemes for the OL.  I dont even know if that makes sense but just a random thought

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19 minutes ago, csmopar said:

i wonder if there is a scheme issue between the type of plays that Chud runs and the schemes for the OL.  I dont even know if that makes sense but just a random thought

No this team is zone blocking so it fits Chuds scheme. 

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I’m going to say no to the changes due to injury. The season before he put Mewhort at RT. He didn’t play well. Put him back at LG and the line played better. This season he did it again and put Mewhort at RG. Now the guy is injured contemplating retiring. It’s those type of changes that have me guessing him. I understand he want a vet next to a rookie. The Colt should’ve went out to get an actual player who’s played on the right side in my honest opinion. 

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25 minutes ago, csmopar said:

i wonder if there is a scheme issue between the type of plays that Chud runs and the schemes for the OL.  I dont even know if that makes sense but just a random thought

 

Hey...   I feel you...

 

I wish I knew what was going on with the line...?      The line has regressed so much this season.    The last half dozen games of 2016 the line was blocking so well...   just 9 sacks in the final 6 games, and that was WITH three rookies starting!

 

i mean what in the world happened to Clark, and Haeg, and Good, and why didn't Banner and Schwenke work out?  Way too many misses....

 

Something just doesn't add up?    I hope at the year end review Ballard addresses all this and so much more?!   

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36 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Hey...   I feel you...

 

I wish I knew what was going on with the line...?      The line has regressed so much this season.    The last half dozen games of 2016 the line was blocking so well...   just 9 sacks in the final 6 games, and that was WITH three rookies starting!

 

i mean what in the world happened to Clark, and Haeg, and Good, and why didn't Banner and Schwenke work out?  Way too many misses....

 

Something just doesn't add up?    I hope at the year end review Ballard addresses all this and so much more?!   

 

 

I think I have the answer to this . 

 

1) Clark   Players usually progress by leaps and bounds in their 2nd year . This guy showed some promise and regressed in a big way. He lost the RT job and then proceeded to lose the RG spot to an undrafted rookie that was with the team just a few weeks. Forget this guy ...

 

2) Mewhort    Was total liability due to chronic knee problem. Highly likely he's finished as a Colt

 

3) Good .. Never was a quality starter and probably won the job due to poor preseason showing by Clark ?

 

4) Haeg ... nice versatile BACK UP OL.

 

5) Castonzo Decent LT that I think has been playing hurt much of the time.

 

6) Kelly   Hurt much of the year

 

The above was nothing short of a hot mess.

 

Now think about what you have and need going forward. IMO you have 2 legitimate starters going into next year. LT is OK and C is good ( not Denzelle). That leaves at the very least Ballard with finding a good starting RT and a quality starting guard . The other guard could come from the roster. Not pretty.....

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13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

If Philbin is changing the lineup at a late point there's a good reason,  even if it's not publicly known by the fans.    Coaches don't make moves like that without a good reason.

 

Philbin has a great reputation league wide.    After his stop in Miami, he was pursued by a number of other teams before joining the Colts.    Irsay was thrillled to announce the signing.

 

I don't know why the line has regressed so much, but there's no denying it has.   But it's not because Philbin doesn't know what he's doing.   Good coaches don't get stupid over night.    Maybe we will find out after the season...   maybe...

 

 

What evidence do we have that he is actually a good OL coach? Going back to 2009, below is how his teams ranked across a few stats. Philbin wasn't the OL coach specifically for all of these teams, but given his background as an OL coach, I think it's fair to look at them because his finger prints are all over the OL in some form or fashion (his scheme, his coaches, etc.).

 

2009 (GB): 8 (QB hits allowed), 1 (sacks allowed), 11 (yards/carry) 

2010 (GB): 23 (QB hits allowed), 11 (sacks allowed), 27 (yards/carry) 

2011 (GB): 18 (QB hits allowed), 11 (sacks allowed), 27 (yards/carry)

 

This was during his time with Aaron Rodgers as QB...a very mobile QB with tremendous pocket presence. Yet they were still mediocre in pass protection. And despite having arguably the best to ever play QB, they couldn't run the ball. Philbin was the OC during this time, but it was his scheme...and he had previously worked with their OL coach for years. 

 

2012 (MIA): 24 (QB hits allowed), 14 (sacks allowed), 20 (yards/carry) 

2013 (MIA): 7 (QB hits allowed), 1 (sacks allowed), 20 (yards/carry) 

2014 (MIA): 5 (QB hits allowed), 10 (sacks allowed), 2 (yards/carry) 

2015 (MIA): 5 (QB hits allowed), 8 (sacks allowed), 10 (yards/carry)

 

Philbin was then hired by MIA to be their HC...so he actually hired the OL coaches to install his blocking schemes. He had two OL coaches during his MIA tenure...Jim Turner and John Benton. Turner was fired after the "Bullygate" scandal involving the OL (which all happened under Philbin's watch)...and is now back at A&M as the OL. Benton is now the 49ers OL coach...the only team with more QB hits than the Colts this season. Not exactly a great coaching tree there.

 

2016 (IND): 2 (QB hits allowed), 5 (sacks allowed), 20 (yards/carry) 

2017 (IND): 2 (QB hits allowed), 1 (sacks allowed), 28 (yards/carry) 

 

We all know the story here...but since Philbin showed up in Indy, the OL has been nothing short of atrocious. They are in a three-way tie with SF and CLE for the most criminal pass protection over the past two seasons, but those teams actually have top-tier run games, while the Colts have been a bottom-tier team. So I think it's fair to argue that the Colts have the worst OL in the NFL since the start of the 2016 season (when Philbin got here). I have yet to see any indication that it's going to improve.

 

I just don't know what proof there he is actually a good coach...especially on the OL. In GB, he had a very talented offensive team, including a HOF QB and several good-great OL players (Chad Clifton, Scott Wells, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Bryan Bulaga)...and the OL results were still mixed. I would like to think he had a hand in helping at least coach up some of those individuals, but we have yet to see any of that on the Colts...so it's hard to say for sure. In MIA, he yet again had some decent talent on the OL (Mike Pouncey, Branden Albert, Richie Incognito)...and again the OL wasn't very good. And then you have IND...where he doesn't have talent and the results are terrible.

 

Much like Chud, I have no doubt Philbin is respected in some (or more) NFL circles. But at the end of the day, the Colts need to get this guy out of here.

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3 hours ago, csmopar said:

i wonder if there is a scheme issue between the type of plays that Chud runs and the schemes for the OL.  I dont even know if that makes sense but just a random thought

Your comment does make sense and it is a big part of the problem  IMO.

 

What I don't see is the Colts lineman getting beat by the man in front of them anymore than most other NFL lineman.  For example, the other night (I forget which game, I think maybe Dallas) a LT was filling in for the starter and he was getting abused.  He was getting beat in the running game, he was getting beat in the passing game, he was even getting beat by his mother on the sideline.  That is a case where the scheme would not have mattered the guy was getting beat consistently.  I don't see that with the Colts.  Vuj gets beat more than any other Colts lineman but he still grades out in the low 80s which is an average NFL lineman.  What I do see though is lineman having to block two guys, defenders coming free and overloading a gap.  That is scheme related but is it oline coach scheme or offensive scheme?

 

One zone blocking schemes are susceptible to delayed blitzes and stunts.  But that is true for any team that runs zone blocking.  So then you need an offensive system that can mask the weaknesses of zone blocking.  So to see how you do that I will go back to the Howard Mudd/Tom Moore era at Indy to illustrate what I think is the biggest issue with the Colts blocking.

 

For every pass play Moore had, he had a running play that looked exactly the same for the first couple of steps.  The QB did the exact same thing, the RB did the exact same thing, the oline did the exact same thing whether it was a run or a pass.  The stretch play was the best example of this.  every time, the tackles would crash down and take the first guy inside.  The guards would then pull to the outside.  Manning would run back with the ball extended and the running back would run to the left.  The only difference was, sometimes Manning would hand off the ball and sometimes he would not.  What that did was freeze the LBers and delay the delayed blitzed and it would create a pile in the middle so any stunts coming that way would get caught up in the trash.

 

Today's Colts don't have anything like that.  70% of a defensive read can be done based on the formation the Colts are in.  The rest the LBers can just key on their specific lineman and determine right after the snap whether it's a run or a pass.  It's a big reason why opposing teams dial up the pressure in the 2nd half.  They have seen everything they need to see to read their keys and react appropriately.  It's not that the DC is calling more blitzes it's just a when you see this player do this, then you do that scenario.

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36 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Your comment does make sense and it is a big part of the problem  IMO.

 

What I don't see is the Colts lineman getting beat by the man in front of them anymore than most other NFL lineman.  For example, the other night (I forget which game, I think maybe Dallas) a LT was filling in for the starter and he was getting abused.  He was getting beat in the running game, he was getting beat in the passing game, he was even getting beat by his mother on the sideline.  That is a case where the scheme would not have mattered the guy was getting beat consistently.  I don't see that with the Colts.  Vuj gets beat more than any other Colts lineman but he still grades out in the low 80s which is an average NFL lineman.  What I do see though is lineman having to block two guys, defenders coming free and overloading a gap.  That is scheme related but is it oline coach scheme or offensive scheme?

 

One zone blocking schemes are susceptible to delayed blitzes and stunts.  But that is true for any team that runs zone blocking.  So then you need an offensive system that can mask the weaknesses of zone blocking.  So to see how you do that I will go back to the Howard Mudd/Tom Moore era at Indy to illustrate what I think is the biggest issue with the Colts blocking.

 

For every pass play Moore had, he had a running play that looked exactly the same for the first couple of steps.  The QB did the exact same thing, the RB did the exact same thing, the oline did the exact same thing whether it was a run or a pass.  The stretch play was the best example of this.  every time, the tackles would crash down and take the first guy inside.  The guards would then pull to the outside.  Manning would run back with the ball extended and the running back would run to the left.  The only difference was, sometimes Manning would hand off the ball and sometimes he would not.  What that did was freeze the LBers and delay the delayed blitzed and it would create a pile in the middle so any stunts coming that way would get caught up in the trash.

 

Today's Colts don't have anything like that.  70% of a defensive read can be done based on the formation the Colts are in.  The rest the LBers can just key on their specific lineman and determine right after the snap whether it's a run or a pass.  It's a big reason why opposing teams dial up the pressure in the 2nd half.  They have seen everything they need to see to read their keys and react appropriately.  It's not that the DC is calling more blitzes it's just a when you see this player do this, then you do that scenario.

On Point brother!!!!

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43 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

 

 

For every pass play Moore had, he had a running play that looked exactly the same for the first couple of steps.  The QB did the exact same thing, the RB did the exact same thing, the oline did the exact same thing whether it was a run or a pass.  The stretch play was the best example of this.  every time, the tackles would crash down and take the first guy inside.  The guards would then pull to the outside.  Manning would run back with the ball extended and the running back would run to the left.  The only difference was, sometimes Manning would hand off the ball and sometimes he would not.  What that did was freeze the LBers and delay the delayed blitzed and it would create a pile in the middle so any stunts coming that way would get caught up in the trash.

 

Today's Colts don't have anything like that.  70% of a defensive read can be done based on the formation the Colts are in.  The rest the LBers can just key on their specific lineman and determine right after the snap whether it's a run or a pass.  It's a big reason why opposing teams dial up the pressure in the 2nd half.  They have seen everything they need to see to read their keys and react appropriately.  It's not that the DC is calling more blitzes it's just a when you see this player do this, then you do that scenario.

 

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19 hours ago, King Colt said:

43 sacks for Brissett so far? Granted Brissett stands in the pocket like a lead statue but the OL has to be holding the record for consecutive years of not being there. By the way, I think Brissett is overrated and his press conference are showing him to be not much more than a smart butt that is not overly concerned that they are losing.

He holds the ball because the receivers aren't getting open he's trying to make a play. 

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1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

Your comment does make sense and it is a big part of the problem  IMO.

 

What I don't see is the Colts lineman getting beat by the man in front of them anymore than most other NFL lineman.  For example, the other night (I forget which game, I think maybe Dallas) a LT was filling in for the starter and he was getting abused.  He was getting beat in the running game, he was getting beat in the passing game, he was even getting beat by his mother on the sideline.  That is a case where the scheme would not have mattered the guy was getting beat consistently.  I don't see that with the Colts.  Vuj gets beat more than any other Colts lineman but he still grades out in the low 80s which is an average NFL lineman.  What I do see though is lineman having to block two guys, defenders coming free and overloading a gap.  That is scheme related but is it oline coach scheme or offensive scheme?

 

One zone blocking schemes are susceptible to delayed blitzes and stunts.  But that is true for any team that runs zone blocking.  So then you need an offensive system that can mask the weaknesses of zone blocking.  So to see how you do that I will go back to the Howard Mudd/Tom Moore era at Indy to illustrate what I think is the biggest issue with the Colts blocking.

 

For every pass play Moore had, he had a running play that looked exactly the same for the first couple of steps.  The QB did the exact same thing, the RB did the exact same thing, the oline did the exact same thing whether it was a run or a pass.  The stretch play was the best example of this.  every time, the tackles would crash down and take the first guy inside.  The guards would then pull to the outside.  Manning would run back with the ball extended and the running back would run to the left.  The only difference was, sometimes Manning would hand off the ball and sometimes he would not.  What that did was freeze the LBers and delay the delayed blitzed and it would create a pile in the middle so any stunts coming that way would get caught up in the trash.

 

Today's Colts don't have anything like that.  70% of a defensive read can be done based on the formation the Colts are in.  The rest the LBers can just key on their specific lineman and determine right after the snap whether it's a run or a pass.  It's a big reason why opposing teams dial up the pressure in the 2nd half.  They have seen everything they need to see to read their keys and react appropriately.  It's not that the DC is calling more blitzes it's just a when you see this player do this, then you do that scenario.

So what you're saying then it is coaching not talent?

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5 hours ago, csmopar said:

i wonder if there is a scheme issue between the type of plays that Chud runs and the schemes for the OL.  I dont even know if that makes sense but just a random thought

I personally think that the scheme Philbin has brought in is very sound and has a lot of potential for being able to overcome a lot of different defensive looks, but it seems like it needs a very wide ranging skillset that a lot of our current players just dont have. Chuds offense does put a lot of pressure on them, which magnifies the problem, but I think there are deeper issues at work as well. 

 

We seem to run a mix of Man/Zone blocking concepts and have a mix of players who excel in either one or the other, but very few who have the skills for both (only AC/Kelly, if anybody). The problem that arises is that we will always have players on the field who are not playing to the scheme that gives them the greatest chance for success. When we run a zone play, our slower/stronger players are at a disadvantage and when we run a man play our athletic/weaker players are at a disadvantage.

 

Part of the problem is that they dont have the proper personnel for one or the other (which isnt really Philbins fault) and he seems to be trying to figure out a way to make it work. Its not really working, but you have to give props for trying to make due with what hes got, especially considering all the new faces coming in due to injuries and the fact that the OC insists on making it as hard as possible for the OL. Its not an easy job and hes at least trying to make adjustments, which is more than we can say about any other coach on the team.

 

It seems like it would make more sense to start by constructing a line that can do one scheme really well before we start trying to put square pegs in round roles. Especially with a lot of young guys in the mix.

If we get a young group of lineman that all excel in zone blocking, it doesnt mean that they cant eventually work in some man concepts once they get comfortable in their zone skills at an NFL level as a unit, and have some time to work on strength programs with the trainers. The same goes for if we started with a group that was more suited for a man scheme. We could work in zone concepts after they have time to get comfortable in the man scheme and have time to work on conditioning/ shedding a little weight if necessary. 

 

TL/DR: I think Grigson was a bad GM and wouldnt commit to looking for OL to fit any particular scheme, which has left Philbin in a tough position trying to pick up the pieces and make it work. Injuries and Chud havent helped either. 

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