Painting over Unitas and Manning

[jvan1973]

16 minutes ago, King Colt said:

QB are compared to each other and play against each other every day of their careers you know like Brady versus Manning. How did that turn out? Saints are headed to another SB this year. Whose is their QB?

The saints aren't going anywhere this year. 

[rockywoj]

33 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Brady settled that discussion.

You do realize the debate is subjective, don’t you?

 

Yes, Brady has more SBs.   Nice to play on way better teams.  

 

You will NEVER convince me that he was as good as Manning though.  With Manning, MY eyes saw a QB that was like no other, a QB better than the best I had ever previously seen, which were Unitas and Marino.  IMHO, and you clearly disagree with this, defining a great QB by number of championship wins is misguided, if not simply fool’s gold. 

 

If you do want to go by that measure, though, Otto Graham is the best QB ever, with seven league championships. One might say Montana is better, too, for he never lost a SB, which Brady has done twice, the same amount of SBs Manning lost, btw. 

 

Also, if not for a couple of amazing twists of fate keyed by questionable to bad coaching decisions (vs Seattle & Atlanta) Brady would not even have a winning record in SBs.  

 

Brady certainly contends as one of the few greatest QBs of all time, and I will not argue that for the title of most “money” QB ever, he is close to Graham & Montana.

 

Regardless, enough of this debate here in this thread.  The Brady vs Manning debate, which you introduced here, has zilch to do with this thread.  THIS thread is about Grigson whitewashing grey over Colts storied legacy.  A deplorable act which, at least according to Patty Mac, created a very negative environment.

[crazycolt1]

23 minutes ago, King Colt said:

Brady settled that discussion.

 You are over looking one thing. Winning a super bowl is a team effort. There have been quite a few what is considered sub-standard QBs who have a ring. Just ask Jim McMahon, Mark Rypian, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer and yes, Joe Namath.

[21isSuperman]

47 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 You are over looking one thing. Winning a super bowl is a team effort. There have been quite a few what is considered sub-standard QBs who have a ring. Just ask Jim McMahon, Mark Rypian, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer and yes, Joe Namath.

And some very good quarterbacks who have never won a ring, like Marino, Jim Kelly, and Phillip Rivers.

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

And some very good quarterbacks who have never won a ring, like Marino, Jim Kelly, and Phillip Rivers.

Very true. Does anyone really have any doubts that Peyton would have had more than one ring here in Indy had the team had a better defense and or special teams. We lost quite a few playoff games because of poor defense and or poor special teams play.

[LockeDown]

1 hour ago, Roger said:

Belichick threw for how many yards in that last Super Bowl? If Manning had a Super Bowl like that, would you ascribe it to his coach?

 

At some point, it stopped being a legit argument and became the sour grapes of Colts fans.  Brady's greatness does not diminish Peyton Manning's greatness.  Manning was one of the greatest to ever play. But nobody except Colts fans thinks of him as The Greatest.  The most recent ranking I saw had him at 5th.

Why so many MVP awards for Manning and not Brady?  Manning settled that debate. Head to head the last few years, Manning settled that debate too.  Manning took Fox and Caldwell to the Super Bowl...Bellichik took Brady every time.  Make no mistake, BB is that teams greatest weapon and it's not even close.

[coltsfansince65]

1 hour ago, King Colt said:

How did he do against a real QB- Drew Breese?!!! 

Yeah cause the QB always goes directly up against the opposing QB..............

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just waking up and reading some of this stuff. First off anyone that says Peyton only beat Rex Grossman like his SB in 2006 didn't matter is Asinine9, Asi10, Asi11, Asi12 like my man Stephen A would say. Get off what ever you are on and get a grip on reality. Peyton beat the Bears Defense and won MVP of the SB first off, a Defense that was dominant. Secondly if some want to say it is QB vs QB, last I looked Peyton beat Brady in 2006 to play the Bears - HE BEAT TOM BRADY who had Bill Belichick! Last I looked isn't Peyton 3-1 vs Tom Brady on the big stage = AFC Title Games.  Happy Thanksgiving, I love you guys/gals in here. Have to get ready to go to mom's so I can gain 10 pounds and get hammered .

 

Rex Grossman 39 Drew Brees 14 in 2006, yeah Rex sucked  Later peeps.

[LockeDown]

Manning vs Bellichik is what drove the league all of those years, genius vs genius.  Brady was good, Polian was good, Dungy was good, etc....but Manning vs BB is what the gurus all focused on rightly so.  

[jvan1973]

Manning went to 4 Superbowls with 4 different head coaches

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, Roger said:

Belichick threw for how many yards in that last Super Bowl? If Manning had a Super Bowl like that, would you ascribe it to his coach?

 

At some point, it stopped being a legit argument and became the sour grapes of Colts fans.  Brady's greatness does not diminish Peyton Manning's greatness.  Manning was one of the greatest to ever play. But nobody except Colts fans thinks of him as The Greatest.  The most recent ranking I saw had him at 5th.

Even Brady himself said he emulated his game copying Manning. Manning changed the way the QB position is played.

As far as this sour grape thing does not change the facts.

As far as the Goat thing there is no such thing. It is all based on opinion. Super bowl rings do not tell who is the GOAT. Was Manning or Brady better than Marino? No. They just benefited from being on better teams. It is human nature to think your favorite player is the best so that is just fan talk. To call it sour grapes just shows you don't understand fandom.

[MackAttack]

1 hour ago, Roger said:

Belichick threw for how many yards in that last Super Bowl? If Manning had a Super Bowl like that, would you ascribe it to his coach?

 

At some point, it stopped being a legit argument and became the sour grapes of Colts fans.  Brady's greatness does not diminish Peyton Manning's greatness.  Manning was one of the greatest to ever play. But nobody except Colts fans thinks of him as The Greatest.  The most recent ranking I saw had him at 5th.

Peyton manning took 4 different head coaches to a super bowl (including John Fox, Gary kubiak and Jim Caldwell. 2 of them currently are nfl head coaches because of those sb runs.) Peyton was the head coach/qb coach/oc/gm at times. The guy was the most valuable player for his team than any other player in the history of the nfl. He still holds ALL the premiere qb records. He did everything you could possibly do at his position for a career. Of course colts fans think he’s the best, we got to watch him play 206 straight games and be an absolute beast every time. Peyton not only gave colts fans some of the best football moments they ever had but some of the best moments we’ve had in our lives (cue the 2006 afc championship). 10+ straight playoff berths with him 2-14 without him? Yeah nbd. Give Peyton Manning the hoodie and the defense ne had all those years he NEVER loses. 

[RockThatBlue]

Brady is easily one of the greatest ever, but I think he really gets helped out from the system Belichick runs. They went 11-5 the one year he missed, Colts went 2-14 the year Peyton missed. 

 

Peyton probably would've won 3+ rings in that Belichick system too. 

 

Another thing Brady for the most part had was a decent run game and a good defense. A lot of Peytons years in Indy (especially after Edge) the Colts had a so-so run game besides Addais first few years, and most Colts defenses were average, to really bad. Give Peyton a good running game and good defense like he had in Denver and he easily has 3 or more rings.

[GoColtsWin]

Thankful for logic, on a day for giving Thanks!

[IinD]

Peyton played on teams where he wasn't allowed to punt once or we'd lose. Peyton is the Goat to me.

 

How about beating Miami when we only had the ball for 15 minutes time of possession?

 

He was other worldly.

 

And just to touch on the Pats and the rings. They were proven to have cheated against St.Louis and people never talk about the kicker from Carolina who basically handed then a SB by kicking it out of bounds. That doesn't happen 100 out of 100 times.

[jimmy g]

The Greatest of all was Unitas.  Then probably Montana, then (I hate saying) Brady.  Then Peyton, then Elway. Then Starr. Then Marino.

 

I like Peyton as the Nicest and Classiest, although tied with Starr.  Unitas did the most with the least.  Next was Peyton. Then Starr

 

 

Need to squeeze in Staubach...

[runthepost]

5 hours ago, King Colt said:

QB are compared to each other and play against each other every day of their careers you know like Brady versus Manning. How did that turn out? Saints are headed to another SB this year. Whose is their QB?

They won’t win it nor will they make it. 

[Colts_Fan12]

5 hours ago, King Colt said:

How did he do against a real QB- Drew Breese?!!! 

Good Lord he beat one of the best defenses in a monsoon rain shower why you have a problem with that is beyond me. Just stop while you are ahead 

[Colts_Fan12]

5 hours ago, King Colt said:

Anyone here recall the days when it was argued who was the better QB, Manning or Brady? That question has faded away for some reason.

It's not hard Peyton is better end of story 

[rockywoj]

29 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

It's not hard Peyton is better end of story 

And the Grigson regime should be ashamed for painting over Manning, Unitas, and the Commemorative SuberBowl!

[chad72]

7 hours ago, King Colt said:

Yeah and Rex Grossman. Who? Rex Grossman. Who's he? I don't know.

 

Peyton didn't play Rex Grossman, he played the Bears' D. 

 

Peyton did beat the next best team in the NFL, however they were in the AFC, the Patriots led by Tom Brady. The AFC was the stronger conference then. The entire Colts team was on a mission then, would have beaten anyone that year, IMO. How did Mr. Brees fare against the vaunted (or not so vaunted, in your opinion) Grossman in the NFCCG? That is right, he had a butt kicking in the NFCCG. Just goes to show you that football is a team sport and everything needs to come together for a SB win, like Brees playing a sub par game vs Favre and the Vikings in the NFCCG but thanks to his D forcing fumbles from Harvin and Peterson plus "roughing up" Favre, came out on top. Again, football is a team sport and every phase needs to help the other out.

[Colts_Fan12]

1 hour ago, rockywoj said:

And the Grigson regime should be ashamed for painting over Manning, Unitas, and the Commemorative SuberBowl!

Screw that guy 

[oldunclemark]

6 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Manning went to 4 Superbowls with 4 different head coaches

and John Fox was one of them

[ColtsBlitz]

18 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Grigson was outstanding his 1st season here. He drafted Luck over RG3 which we knew was going to happen and he got a huge steal in the Draft when he drafted TY Hilton in the Round he did. He also traded for Vontae Davis. After that season his Drafts were Poor and the Trent Richardson trade was awful. It was also said he treated the players like garbage, that is coming from Pat and Reggie. Don't know if Grigs got a big head or his ego inflated after 2012 but he was definitely a huge problem from 2013-2016 and sounds like he was a jerk to be around. That is not the type of culture you want to be around. I like Ballard better already just because of his attitude alone. I thought Ballard's 1st Draft at least deserved a B at worse as well.

Then he got complacent. Fired for it.

[Gramz]

I was sharing this story with my boys today over dinner.   They couldn't comprehend how anyone could paint over a mural of these two great icons, and the Lombardi.            

 

I Hope you all had a Happy Thanksgiving.

[King Colt]

5 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

Good Lord he beat one of the best defenses in a monsoon rain shower why you have a problem with that is beyond me. Just stop while you are ahead 

The weather?! 

[21isSuperman]

1 hour ago, King Colt said:

The weather?! 

At this point, I'm convinced you're just trolling to get a reaction

[rockywoj]

26 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

At this point, I'm convinced you're just trolling to get a reaction

Isn’t it sadly humorous how there always seems to be somebody that chimes in to derail the topic of a thread?

 

thread topic = Grigson Regime painting over cherished Colts history, as alleged by Pat McAffee.  An act condemned by yours truly.

 

Thread derailed, firstly by a poster dredging up the painfully tired old argument that Brady is better than Manning because Brady has QB’d teams that have won more championships.

 

Thread derailed again by the (false) claim that the Colts’ 2006 win is tarnished because the Colts beat a team, that just happened to have a better regular season record and had one of the strongest defenses of the decade, but that was QB’d by Rex Grossman.

 

It’s sad that too often some poster just really wrecks things by throwing out argumentive tangents having nothing to do with thread topics, or by throwing out false statements in argumentive or condescending ways, rather than staying on topic by discussing the actual topic.

 

i actually hate that I have been beaten down to a place of intolerance for such thread jacking and unnecessary flaming condescension.  

 

Anyway, majority of this thread isn’t on topic.  I swear, if I had mod powers, Inwould delete the majority of off topic argumentive thread replies, straight away. Given how the thread WAS derailed, though, at this point it probably should just be locked. 

[NewColtsFan]

14 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

 You are over looking one thing. Winning a super bowl is a team effort. There have been quite a few what is considered sub-standard QBs who have a ring. Just ask Jim McMahon, Mark Rypian, Joe Flacco, Brad Johnson, Jeff Hostetler, Doug Williams, Trent Dilfer and yes, Joe Namath.

 

Well....   it's in the eye of the beholder....

 

I wouldn't say any of these guys are sub-standard....    (OK, maybe Dilfer....)     but I would think of them as not being elite.     You wouldn't look at their work and think "Super Bowl winning QB."     But they were......

 

But you are 100% right when you say football is the ultimate team sport.....    which is why even as a big Andrew Luck fan I don't think we won 11 games a year and went further in the playoffs the first three years simply because we had Luck.     The rest of the team played well enough of the time to make a difference in their own small way.     You can't win as much as we did with just one guy,  even Andrew Luck.      That's why QB's like Dan Marino and others didn't win a SB.      Not good enough talent around them.

 

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Well....   it's in the eye of the beholder....

 

I wouldn't say any of these guys are sub-standard....    (OK, maybe Dilfer....)     but I would think of them as not being elite.     You wouldn't look at their work and think "Super Bowl winning QB."     But they were......

 

But you are 100% right when you say football is the ultimate team sport.....    which is why even as a big Andrew Luck fan I don't think we won 11 games a year and went further in the playoffs the first three years simply because we had Luck.     The rest of the team played well enough of the time to make a difference in their own small way.     You can't win as much as we did with just one guy,  even Andrew Luck.      That's why QB's like Dan Marino and others didn't win a SB.      Not good enough talent around them.

 

Three of the QBs I listed were not even starters thus the sub standard comment.

One thing I did notice is Joe Gibbs was the first Belichick type of head coach where the system was what won his teams games. He won three super bowls with three different QBs.

[ReMeDy]

On 11/23/2017 at 1:09 AM, 2006Coltsbestever said:

It was also said he treated the players like garbage, that is coming from Pat and Reggie.

 

It's funny you mention that because I always thought he looked like an Italian Mafioso or gangster. I mean, just look at this guy:

 

Does that look like an approachable guy? Absolutely not, and I know I'm basically profiling the guy based on his looks, but that guy just gave me some bad vibes.

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Three of the QBs I listed were not even starters thus the sub standard comment.

One thing I did notice is Joe Gibbs was the first Belichick type of head coach where the system was what won his teams games. He won three super bowls with three different QBs.

 

Who are the three quarterbacks.

 

I see one.    Hostetler.

 

Who else?

 

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Who are the three quarterbacks.

 

I see one.    Hostetler.

 

Who else?

 

Doug Williams was one but I was wrong about Mark Rypian. I didn't remember but he was a starter the year he won a ring.

Jay Schroeder was the starter over Doug Williams that year that Williams got his ring.

[Dingus McGirt]

20 hours ago, King Colt said:

How did he do against a real QB- Drew Breese?!!! 

Sorry.  Peyton wasn't "against" Drew Brees.  That loss gets pinned on Caldwell and Hank Baskett.

 

[21isSuperman]

8 hours ago, rockywoj said:

Isn’t it sadly humorous how there always seems to be somebody that chimes in to derail the topic of a thread?

 

thread topic = Grigson Regime painting over cherished Colts history, as alleged by Pat McAffee.  An act condemned by yours truly.

 

Thread derailed, firstly by a poster dredging up the painfully tired old argument that Brady is better than Manning because Brady has QB’d teams that have won more championships.

 

Thread derailed again by the (false) claim that the Colts’ 2006 win is tarnished because the Colts beat a team, that just happened to have a better regular season record and had one of the strongest defenses of the decade, but that was QB’d by Rex Grossman.

 

It’s sad that too often some poster just really wrecks things by throwing out argumentive tangents having nothing to do with thread topics, or by throwing out false statements in argumentive or condescending ways, rather than staying on topic by discussing the actual topic.

 

i actually hate that I have been beaten down to a place of intolerance for such thread jacking and unnecessary flaming condescension.  

 

Anyway, majority of this thread isn’t on topic.  I swear, if I had mod powers, Inwould delete the majority of off topic argumentive thread replies, straight away. Given how the thread WAS derailed, though, at this point it probably should just be locked. 

We can't delete posts simply because we don't like them.  Everyone is allowed to post their opinions, provided it follows board rules.  While I strongly disagree with his posts, they were still related to the topic of the Colts' past/legacy.  All we can do is post our own opinions and facts to support those opinions.  Things would get pretty dull around here if we all had the same opinions on everything

[rockywoj]

28 minutes ago, 21isSuperman said:

We can't delete posts simply because we don't like them.  Everyone is allowed to post their opinions, provided it follows board rules.  While I strongly disagree with his posts, they were still related to the topic of the Colts' past/legacy.  All we can do is post our own opinions and facts to support those opinions.  Things would get pretty dull around here if we all had the same opinions on everything

Hey, I don’t mind healthy, civil debates, but it shouldn’t be too much to ask for things to remain reasonably on topic.   

[Gramz]

9 minutes ago, rockywoj said:

Hey, I don’t mind healthy, civil debates, but it shouldn’t be too much to ask for things to remain on topic.   

I agree with you.  Having said that, sometimes threads can and do wander off topic, in a healthy friendly way, and that can be okay. 

 

However, I totally get what you are saying, and I agree with you.  When it's the same few people, who turn every thread into the same monotonous discussion  (in a negative manner) it more than borders on troll like behavior. and it gets old very quickly.  

[GoPats]

23 hours ago, Roger said:

Brady's greatness does not diminish Peyton Manning's greatness. 

 

Totally agree. This, and vice-versa. I like friendly debate but tearing one guy down to build the other up = junk. It's what people do when they feel like they're going to lose an argument. 

 

23 hours ago, rockywoj said:

Also, if not for a couple of amazing twists of fate keyed by questionable to bad coaching decisions (vs Seattle & Atlanta) Brady would not even have a winning record in SBs.  

 

If not for a couple of twists of fate the other way, he'd be 7-0 in Super Bowls. And he could really just as easily be 0-7. They were pretty much all amazing, tightly fought games that required 60 (or 60+ in one case) minutes of complete focus and determination. I've never seen an athlete with Brady's mental toughness. 

 

22 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Manning went to 4 Superbowls with 4 different head coaches

 

Which is impressive. And two teams. Still only the QB to do that. What always impressed me most though (grudingly, at times, haha) were two things: 1) The record number of MVPs, and 2) his per-game stats.

 

Brady's answer to the teams/coaching thing is how he's been the only constant on the field in NE. Between 2001 and 2016, how many different guys came and went? The first three SBs had a core roster, but since then, the entire thing (except Brady) has turned over. 

 

Just speaking in general (not in response to jvan)... 

 

It cracks me up that a lot of you guys try to devalue Brady's accomplishments by giving more than reasonable credit to Belichick. I'm 45, I've been watching this team since the late 70s... it is both of them. Without Brady, there is no Dynasty. Without Belichick, there is no Dynasty. Brady helped Belichick win, which gave him the cache to do what he does today, and to get other guys to "buy in" to his program by seeing how hard the superstar QB works, and how he's subject to criticism and discipline just like the last guy on the practice squad roster. 

 

If Brady never came along, the Patriots would probably still be seeking their first SB win. I can't tell you what would have happened in that alternate universe, but I guarantee you, Belichick would not be revered the way he is without having coached #12 all these years. 

 

 

Anyway, ON TOPIC... Grigson stinks, lol... the signature move that will be remembered is the Trent Richardson trade. Taking Luck first was a no-brainer, hard to give him a lot of credit for that, despite the RGIII buzz leading up to that draft. 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

9 hours ago, ReMeDy said:

 

It's funny you mention that because I always thought he looked like an Italian Mafioso or gangster. I mean, just look at this guy:

 

Does that look like an approachable guy? Absolutely not, and I know I'm basically profiling the guy based on his looks, but that guy just gave me some bad vibes.

If I was at a bar and he looked at me and said what are you looking at? I would say you, what are you going to do about it? Then he stands up and I would say sorry sir can I buy you a beer?  

[2006Coltsbestever]

10 minutes ago, GoPats said:

 

Totally agree. This, and vice-versa. I like friendly debate but tearing one guy down to build the other up = junk. It's what people do when they feel like they're going to lose an argument. 

 

 

If not for a couple of twists of fate the other way, he'd be 7-0 in Super Bowls. And he could really just as easily be 0-7. They were pretty much all amazing, tightly fought games that required 60 (or 60+ in one case) minutes of complete focus and determination. I've never seen an athlete with Brady's mental toughness. 

 

 

Which is impressive. And two teams. Still only the QB to do that. What always impressed me most though (grudingly, at times, haha) were two things: 1) The record number of MVPs, and 2) his per-game stats.

 

Brady's answer to the teams/coaching thing is how he's been the only constant on the field in NE. Between 2001 and 2016, how many different guys came and went? The first three SBs had a core roster, but since then, the entire thing (except Brady) has turned over. 

 

Just speaking in general (not in response to jvan)... 

 

It cracks me up that a lot of you guys try to devalue Brady's accomplishments by giving more than reasonable credit to Belichick. I'm 45, I've been watching this team since the late 70s... it is both of them. Without Brady, there is no Dynasty. Without Belichick, there is no Dynasty. Brady helped Belichick win, which gave him the cache to do what he does today, and to get other guys to "buy in" to his program by seeing how hard the superstar QB works, and how he's subject to criticism and discipline just like the last guy on the practice squad roster. 

 

If Brady never came along, the Patriots would probably still be seeking their first SB win. I can't tell you what would have happened in that alternate universe, but I guarantee you, Belichick would not be revered the way he is without having coached #12 all these years. 

 

 

Anyway, ON TOPIC... Grigson stinks, lol... the signature move that will be remembered is the Trent Richardson trade. Taking Luck first was a no-brainer, hard to give him a lot of credit for that, despite the RGIII buzz leading up to that draft. 

 

Yeah I will go off topic because have to respond to your great Post. Brady will be known as the GOAT to most media people because he has won 5 SB's which I don't have a problem with. He also passed Peyton for career wins for a QB and Brady has comparable Stats to Peyton unlike say a Terry Bradshaw. Peyton has won 5 MVP's to Tom's 2 and won a SB with 2 different teams is where Peyton still has a slight argument to being the GOAT. I don't think any QB will ever win 5 MVP's or win with 2 different teams. Bottomline is, you cant go wrong either. I miss the rivalry bigtime!