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needanoline63

By needanoline63
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SaturdayAllDay Practice Squad

SaturdayAllDay

Posted
Posted

Ive already touched on this in another thread, but its worth mentioning again.

 

While the scheme and surrounding cast are absolutely part of why he is doing better, and I do think he looks better in Philly than he did here, his PFF rating doesnt exactly tell the whole story. Im not a fan of using PFF ratings as the be all rating on a player, and take anything they say with a grain of salt. 

 

He only has 22 targets on the year (not counting last nights data, as I dont have it handy), which is a very small sample size to go off of. This means that any single play can affect his grade greatly, especially if it is something good, such as the 1 INT he has this year. With his INT he has given up a QB rating of 78.6 (which is in line with a above average #1CB). Take away the INT and his rating given up skyrockets to 97.5 (which is in the running for league worst) 

 

Could he have made the leap and become an above average or even an elite player? Its not out of the realm of possibility. But I wouldnt bet on it, and Im definitely not willing to crown him a solid player, let alone elite. Not yet anyways.

 

Its an interesting story to keep tabs on as the year progresses though, and it does merit further investigation, as he does have a low number of targets for a player on a defense that has given up a lot of catches and pass yds this year. I'd be interested to know if its due to him being good in coverage, or simply a coincidence based on what could be several other factors. 

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a06cc Team Captain

a06cc

Posted
Posted

Don’t want to hear people complain about PFF. Like someone else had stated. We tried to use him as a slot WR. It’s been 5 weeks and I’m surprised he is healthy. Being injuried all the time must be a “thing”

here too...

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RockThatBlue Practice Squad

RockThatBlue

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, needanoline63 said:

Colts cornerbacks that go to other teams always end up doing good there and not here. 

 

https://phi.247sports.com/Bolt/PFF-Patrick-Robinson-No-1-cornerback-in-NFL-108744959

Who are all of these colts cornerbacks who went to another team and did good? Care to list them?

 

BTW if anyone thinks Patrick Robinson is the #1 CB in the NFL, I want some of what they are smoking.

 

 

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Peterk2011 Walk On

Peterk2011

Posted
Posted
14 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Always. Here's the proof.

http://stampedeblue.com/allplayersplaybetter-after-leaving-the-Colts-and-Pagano-104234516

 

This link isn't working. Let's go through quickly the players from recent years:

 

corners:

- Davis: Become an elite corner and pro-bowler in Indy.

- Butler: Lost his job to Arrington in Boston, was in roster bubble in Carolina. Become a fine player in Indy.

- Toler: Never was good anywhere. :) Maybe his best year was his 2014 in Indy. He's a free agent now.

- Melvin: he was a journeyman for years. Become an NFL player in Indy recently.

- D'joun Smith: bust in Indy, never become anything more than a bust since he left (yet)

- Pat Rob: average to bad in NO, not good & healthy scrach in Indy, good 2017 start in Philly.

- Jalil Brown: 4th rounder from Kansas, never good in there. Never established himself in indy neither. free agent now

 

safeties:

- Adams: was good in Denver, became a pro bowler in Indy.

- Lowery: ok player before, was OK in Indy, was ok in his final year in San Diego. he's a free agent now

- Colt Anderson: never good in Philly, not good in Indy, never played a snap yet in Buffalo. 

- Landry: A bust as a #6 overall pick, so-so as a player in Washington, same in NY, same in Indy. retired

 

I still don't see the "always" here. Actually, if I take a closer look, I find more players who were at their best in Indy, than the other way....

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Yoshinator Ring of Honor

Yoshinator

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

This link isn't working. Let's go through quickly the players from recent years:

 

corners:

- Davis: Become an elite corner and pro-bowler in Indy.

- Butler: Lost his job to Arrington in Boston, was in roster bubble in Carolina. Become a fine player in Indy.

- Toler: Never was good anywhere. :) Maybe his best year was his 2014 in Indy. He's a free agent now.

- Melvin: he was a journeyman for years. Become an NFL player in Indy recently.

- D'joun Smith: bust in Indy, never become anything more than a bust since he left (yet)

- Pat Rob: average to bad in NO, not good & healthy scrach in Indy, good 2017 start in Philly.

- Jalil Brown: 4th rounder from Kansas, never good in there. Never established himself in indy neither. free agent now

 

safeties:

- Adams: was good in Denver, became a pro bowler in Indy.

- Lowery: ok player before, was OK in Indy, was ok in his final year in San Diego. he's a free agent now

- Colt Anderson: never good in Philly, not good in Indy, never played a snap yet in Buffalo. 

- Landry: A bust as a #6 overall pick, so-so as a player in Washington, same in NY, same in Indy. retired

 

I still don't see the "always" here. Actually, if I take a closer look, I find more players who were at their best in Indy, than the other way....

It wasn't supposed to work, it was a complete joke. Obviously, most of our players don't become the no1 player in the league at their position after leaving. Just messing around with a broken link lol.

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Coltfreak Walk On

Coltfreak

Posted
Posted

I thought it was funny when he came here last yr reading most of you thinking he was going to be a great CB2.    I said then and it came to be true he was not a good cb2 and would only be good as a nickel in the slot    Of course I took a lot of flack for that but we all know how it worked out in the end and how he is playing when played properly 

 

another knock against Pagano?    Of course.  

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
26 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

I thought it was funny when he came here last yr reading most of you thinking he was going to be a great CB2.    I said then and it came to be true he was not a good cb2 and would only be good as a nickel in the slot    Of course I took a lot of flack for that but we all know how it worked out in the end and how he is playing when played properly 

 

another knock against Pagano?    Of course.  

 

Of course,  (A). It could be a knock on Grigson,  and (B)....   The guy was hurt almost all the time.

 

You might want to consider that....   

 

Remember Ballard could have kept him if he had wanted to.

 

Not every problem is a Pagano mistake.

 

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Coltfreak Walk On

Coltfreak

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Of course,  (A). It could be a knock on Grigson,  and (B)....   The guy was hurt almost all the time.

 

You might want to consider that....   

 

Remember Ballard could have kept him if he had wanted to.

 

Not every problem is a Pagano mistake.

 

Yes Ballard didn't keep him because he was not better than Butler in the slot.   And he was terrible as an outside corner.   He was no better than Toler but everyone thought he was going to be great.   He wasn't. 

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dudeski Walk On

dudeski

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

That's going to come as a disappointment to NFL teams that use PFF....

 

So,  who do you think is doing analysis any better?

 

no nfl team uses pff rankings of players.   that is absurd

 

teams do their own grading of players.  no team is going to rely on a bunch of no nothing dudes at a website.

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Peterk2011 Walk On

Peterk2011

Posted
Posted
19 hours ago, dudeski said:

no nfl team uses pff rankings of players.   that is absurd

 

teams do their own grading of players.  no team is going to rely on a bunch of no nothing dudes at a website.

 

Pff has changed a lot since Collinsworth bought them. Their game gradings are for media and fans, take them accordingly. Their play by play grading system is a different animal. That's what teams, scouts and pro analysts use. Sadly that's not available for us :( (Unless you pay a boatload of money...)

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dudeski Walk On

dudeski

Posted
Posted
On 10/16/2017 at 7:23 AM, Peterk2011 said:

 

Pff has changed a lot since Collinsworth bought them. Their game gradings are for media and fans, take them accordingly. Their play by play grading system is a different animal. That's what teams, scouts and pro analysts use. Sadly that's not available for us :( (Unless you pay a boatload of money...)

nope.

 

no team uses their play by play grading system either.  doesn't happen and never will

 

at best teams only use information like percentages in nickel or snap counts or things that are easily measured.  nobody in their right mind would look at a pff grade and think it has any relevance to reality.  

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
On 10/15/2017 at 8:31 AM, dudeski said:

no nfl team uses pff rankings of players.   that is absurd

 

teams do their own grading of players.  no team is going to rely on a bunch of no nothing dudes at a website.

 

Sorry for the delayed response.....    but I wanted to find something specific and more concrete....   and I couldn't.

 

But Superman did....

 

Here's an article about PFF and it states that 30 of the 32 NFL teams use PFF as part of their evaluation process.    It's right there toward the top of the story.      Yes,  NFL teams primarily use their own scouts and their own rating systems,  and the numbers for teams and PFF are going to differ,  but not by that much.     Teams use them to have an objective outside set of eyes looking at the same thing but perhaps seeing things a bit differently.     

 

Here's the article:

 

http://awfulannouncing.com/nfl/cris-collinsworth-pro-football-focus-defends-data-coaches.html

 

The key sentence is at the bottom of the 2nd paragraph....    I'm cutting and pasting....

 

Yet 30 of the 32 NFL teams employ Pro Football Focus for its data and film marking system of the All-22 tape that coaching staffs and players study.

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Peterk2011 Walk On

Peterk2011

Posted
Posted

Let me add this: 

 

"Thirty of the 32 NFL teams are paying customers of PFF, and Collinsworth said the company’s expansive film marking system is likely what’s most valuable to teams. PFF also deals in the purely objective, tracking various statistics, both traditional and advanced. It’s the numerical grades, though, that prompt the juiciest headlines, especially as they’ve gained mainstream prominence. The 10-year-old company has deals with most broadcast networks, and NBC now features PFF grades during its weekly broadcasts."

 

So teams do use their play by play statistics and gradings. It's their numerical grades wich are usually critized, because that is what most journalists, fans (and players) see / have access to.

 

An interesting piece is that Chip Kelly was one of those coaches (along with Marvin Lewis, etc) who openly criticized their numerical gradings (not their play by play statistics). Then, he's been invited to study their process, Kelly went there, studied their process, saw it with his own eyes, then..... he bought a share of the company. :)

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dudeski Walk On

dudeski

Posted
Posted
On 10/19/2017 at 8:07 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry for the delayed response.....    but I wanted to find something specific and more concrete....   and I couldn't.

 

But Superman did....

 

Here's an article about PFF and it states that 30 of the 32 NFL teams use PFF as part of their evaluation process.    It's right there toward the top of the story.      Yes,  NFL teams primarily use their own scouts and their own rating systems,  and the numbers for teams and PFF are going to differ,  but not by that much.     Teams use them to have an objective outside set of eyes looking at the same thing but perhaps seeing things a bit differently.     

 

Here's the article:

 

http://awfulannouncing.com/nfl/cris-collinsworth-pro-football-focus-defends-data-coaches.html

 

The key sentence is at the bottom of the 2nd paragraph....    I'm cutting and pasting....

 

Yet 30 of the 32 NFL teams employ Pro Football Focus for its data and film marking system of the All-22 tape that coaching staffs and players study.

so i was right.  just as i thought.  pff ratings are trash and are meaningless

 

and guess what, the owner of cigarette companies speak highly of their product as well.  terrible article

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
Just now, dudeski said:

so i was right.  just as i thought.  pff ratings are trash and are meaningless

 

and guess what, the owner of cigarette companies speak highly of their product as well.  terrible article

 

Huh?

 

What do you mean you were right?       You said NFL don't use PFF grades and I just showed you that 30 teams do indeed use them.       The articlke showed that former NFL player Cris Collinsworth bought the majority of the company,   and that a coach who used to not like them,  Chip Kelly,  took a tour of the facility and was so impressed with what they do that he bought a minority interest in the team.

 

There's nothing about this information that says you were right.     Not at all.     Just because you don't like them doesn't mean a thing.  

 

The article completely refuted what you said.    

 

 

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dudeski Walk On

dudeski

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Huh?

 

What do you mean you were right?       You said NFL don't use PFF grades and I just showed you that 30 teams do indeed use them.       The articlke showed that former NFL player Cris Collinsworth bought the majority of the company,   and that a coach who used to not like them,  Chip Kelly,  took a tour of the facility and was so impressed with what they do that he bought a minority interest in the team.

 

There's nothing about this information that says you were right.     Not at all.     Just because you don't like them doesn't mean a thing.  

 

The article completely refuted what you said.    

 

 

where did that say they use player grades that is factual?  i missed that part.  probably because it wasn't there.

 

so a rich dude saw a profitable company and bought into it.  that means something other than rich dudes like to make money?

 

the article was a puff piece made pretty much by the owner of the company.  

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
8 hours ago, dudeski said:

where did that say they use player grades that is factual?  i missed that part.  probably because it wasn't there.

 

so a rich dude saw a profitable company and bought into it.  that means something other than rich dudes like to make money?

 

the article was a puff piece made pretty much by the owner of the company.  

 

The owner of the company says 30 of 32 NFL teams use his service.       I'm sorry he didn't bring out the paper work to show it to you.     But typically,  unless there is reason to believe he's lying,  the man,  in this case,  Cris Collinsworth, gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

As opposed to you,   who doesn't like the service,  and just denies,  denies,  and denies.....

 

Oh,  and as for Chip Kelly......     Rich Dudes have lots of ways of making money.    They typically don't chose to make it by buying part of a company that, in the past,  they have openly said negative things about.      Goes to credibility.      They can invest their money elsewhere.

 

Kelly bought in because he likes what he sees.

 

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Peterk2011 Walk On

Peterk2011

Posted
Posted

Btw, I never understood why one of the main arguments against these (actually, any) grading systems is that they don't know the plays that were called, so how can they decide if players did good or wrong? Like it wasn't the case 99% of the time. The only case when plays are known is when teams grade THEIR OWN players after games / practices. That's the only case. Everyone else are always guessing. Pro scouts are guessing when they watch tapes, NFL teams are guessing when they prepare, game plan for sundays, because .... guess what ... they DONT KNOW the plays neither.

 

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dudeski Walk On

dudeski

Posted
Posted
On 10/22/2017 at 1:28 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

The owner of the company says 30 of 32 NFL teams use his service.       I'm sorry he didn't bring out the paper work to show it to you.     But typically,  unless there is reason to believe he's lying,  the man,  in this case,  Cris Collinsworth, gets the benefit of the doubt.

 

As opposed to you,   who doesn't like the service,  and just denies,  denies,  and denies.....

 

Oh,  and as for Chip Kelly......     Rich Dudes have lots of ways of making money.    They typically don't chose to make it by buying part of a company that, in the past,  they have openly said negative things about.      Goes to credibility.      They can invest their money elsewhere.

 

Kelly bought in because he likes what he sees.

 

they don't use the service of player grades.  teams do not use them to evaluate players.  period

 

and that is awesome that you speculate why kelly bought in based on the owner saying why.  no bias there whatsoever.  you posted an article about the owner pimping his own company and think that proves something.  it doesn't.  

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, dudeski said:

they don't use the service of player grades.  teams do not use them to evaluate players.  period

 

and that is awesome that you speculate why kelly bought in based on the owner saying why.  no bias there whatsoever.  you posted an article about the owner pimping his own company and think that proves something.  it doesn't.  

 

Hey, if you want to live in denial,  then congratulations!      I can't stop you and I won't even try.

 

 

 

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mikey287 Walk On

mikey287

Posted
Posted

The only thing I don't get is the "I was right" part...you aren't wrong, probably, as teams do their own evaluating obviously...but the "I was right" part seems out of place...

 

That said, the NFL clubs have access to all the video they want...i can't imagine that PFF has private camera work being done...so that steers me back to the raw data, as opposed to the grades (interpretations of data, that is) that are the selling point...

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NewColtsFan Ring of Honor

NewColtsFan

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, dudeski said:

it isn't denial.  it is common sense.  feel free to wake up whenever you like

 

I don't know why you insist on fighting this.

 

i never said any team uses PFF as their primary source of scouting of grading.   They don't.    THAT would be silly.

 

But using an outside service to see what other people think is smart business.   Happens on other sports and businesses.

 

Its common sense to do so.  And the story clearly says 30 of 32 teams use the service.     But you keep fighting this with no explanation other than you don't believe it.

 

So keep fighting and remain in denial.   The facts and common sense are on my side, not yours.

 

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