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Why isn't Vontae Davis in press man?


ColtsBlitz

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This is where he excels yet he is off the ball most of the time at least 8 yards. I know Quincy Wilson is pretty good at press man too so if they can both do it, why aren't they? I feel like that would help the pass rush by throwing off the QBs timing by .5 seconds. 

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Wouldn’t be surprised if the coaches don’t have the faith in his quick agility from press anymore. Especially against more compact, quicker receivers. He’s on the back 9 of his career and getting more and more injury prone in his lower body which won’t help the quick agility either. Being 5 yards off allows him to play to what are his strengths now. 

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2 minutes ago, UKColt13 said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if the coaches don’t have the faith in his quick agility from press anymore. Especially against more compact, quicker receivers. He’s on the back 9 of his career and getting more and more injury prone in his lower body which won’t help the quick agility either. Being 5 yards off allows him to play to what are his strengths now. 

They usually take advantage of his positioning and throw a short out or an in cut route. I know what you mean and I don't think he's coming back, but he should be able to stay in enough shape to play press at 29(?). Patrick Peterson is older and much much better. Work ethic involved there. 

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27 minutes ago, UKColt13 said:

Wouldn’t be surprised if the coaches don’t have the faith in his quick agility from press anymore. Especially against more compact, quicker receivers. He’s on the back 9 of his career and getting more and more injury prone in his lower body which won’t help the quick agility either. Being 5 yards off allows him to play to what are his strengths now. 

This is a coaching scheme.  A guy that every coach and media person was raving about during camp, who just came off of a hamstring will have a slight bit of rust but will get at it.  And to your second point, NO.  If he is losing a step as you say you would have him in the WR's face to bump them off the route so you can go with them from there.  You would NOT allow for 5 yards because a quick route would go against this loss of agility you claim...makes no sense at all!

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I honestly can't tell what this defense has tried to become over the time Pagano has been here, regardless of who is D.C.  We get players who are supposed to excel at a specific task and we bring them in and change them into a scheme not strong suited for them. I can't ever understand how they use their cb's most of the time. It just seems everything they do is more reactive as opposed to planning and pressing. I've always hated those give ups of 20+ yard 3rd downs. It's almost like teams have some inside knowledge of where the defense will line up and where their drops will be and able to make the correct calls to get 20 yard gains with seemingly a high % rate. It's sick. 

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1 hour ago, lollygagger8 said:

The coaches would rather play zone for some reason and let Hoyer look like Montana and let the Colts get worked in the middle game after game. 

Same thing the Chiefs did against Watson when they had the lead.  All coaches love the prevent with a lead. Even Andy Reid. 

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39 minutes ago, richard pallo said:

Same thing the Chiefs did against Watson when they had the lead.  All coaches love the prevent with a lead. Even Andy Reid. 

Andy Reid has more of a reason to. He has a top 5 offense while we do not. He can trust his offense will score again if they need them to. Chuck should understand without Luck we can't do that. In my opinion, this is all on monachino. He should know that we don't have the ability to drive willingly down the field with our offense. 

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2 hours ago, ColtsBlitz said:

This is where he excels yet he is off the ball most of the time at least 8 yards. I know Quincy Wilson is pretty good at press man too so if they can both do it, why aren't they? I feel like that would help the pass rush by throwing off the QBs timing by .5 seconds. 

 

Davis is playing press man, he did play press in certain situations on sunday. So did Melvin (and Wilson in previous weeks).

 

The problem in Indy is, that playing press man requires a good, rangy safety who can cover the field behind, if the receiver beats the corner. Hooker is that kind of a player, but he is a rooke, he is still learning, we see on the field that he is kinda hit and miss yet. So I guess the staff mixing it yet to not be too predictable, and to lower the risk of being beaten in deep routes even more than they are. But, I think the ultimate goal is to play something like you want. A cover 3-ish thing with Hooker maybe as a single high safety and with playing press man, plus having a strong safety like Geathers who can cover the underneath area. We'll see.

 

1 hour ago, Jdubu said:

I can't ever understand how they use their cb's most of the time. It just seems everything they do is more reactive as opposed to planning and pressing. I've always hated those give ups of 20+ yard 3rd downs. It's almost like teams have some inside knowledge of where the defense will line up and where their drops will be and able to make the correct calls to get 20 yard gains with seemingly a high % rate. It's sick. 

 

Yeah, it's painful to watch. That happens if your #1 corner is not playing like a #1 for whatever reason and the others are bunch of rookies learning their jobs. Last year it was similarly painful, but this is a different situation imo. Last year was a big mess, this year we might have the talent there, but they are just too young yet. I remember the Packers secondary last year. They were dreadul at times, same reason. (I watch quite many Packers games recently 'cause that's the only game I have access to when I'm at my sisters house. But anyway, you get the point I think.)

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1 hour ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

Davis is playing press man, he did play press in certain situations on sunday. So did Melvin (and Wilson in previous weeks).

 

The problem in Indy is, that playing press man requires a good, rangy safety who can cover the field behind, if the receiver beats the corner. Hooker is that kind of a player, but he is a rooke, he is still learning, we see on the field that he is kinda hit and miss yet. So I guess the staff mixing it yet to not be too predictable, and to lower the risk of being beaten in deep routes even more than they are. But, I think the ultimate goal is to play something like you want. A cover 3-ish thing with Hooker maybe as a single high safety and with playing press man, plus having a strong safety like Geathers who can cover the underneath area. We'll see.

 

 

Yeah, it's painful to watch. That happens if your #1 corner is not playing like a #1 for whatever reason and the others are bunch of rookies learning their jobs. Last year it was similarly painful, but this is a different situation imo. Last year was a big mess, this year we might have the talent there, but they are just too young yet. I remember the Packers secondary last year. They were dreadul at times, same reason. (I watch quite many Packers games recently 'cause that's the only game I have access to when I'm at my sisters house. But anyway, you get the point I think.)

 

All good points.  It doesn't seem they're using Hooker right in some situations, like when they had Farley deep.

 

Also, there may be some 'diminishing skills' going on with Vontae.  Or maybe he's not fully recovered.  Good news is that Melvin is playing well and we seem to have some depth for a change.  Wilson, Hairston, and Desir all look like they're going to be pretty good.

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It's not really much of a mystery or anything.  There are 3 main reasons why VD hasn't played press.

 

1.  The last two weeks VD has been playing against some speedy receivers.  Vontae has some great attributes as a corner but deep speed is not one of them and never has been.

2.  The run defense is greatly improved, so they don't need VD for run support as much.

3.  because of the improved run D they were trying to force things so Hoyer would have to beat them throwing the ball.  When you do that, you want to keep everything in front of the DBs.  It's the old cover 2 philosophy, force a QB to play perfectly for 8-10-12 plays in a row to march downfield.  They were banking on Hoyer not being able to do that.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, ColtsBlitz said:

They usually take advantage of his positioning and throw a short out or an in cut route. I know what you mean and I don't think he's coming back, but he should be able to stay in enough shape to play press at 29(?). Patrick Peterson is older and much much better. Work ethic involved there. 

 

Peterson is 2 years younger. And has always been the better athlete.

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4 hours ago, ColtsBlitz said:

This is where he excels yet he is off the ball most of the time at least 8 yards. I know Quincy Wilson is pretty good at press man too so if they can both do it, why aren't they? I feel like that would help the pass rush by throwing off the QBs timing by .5 seconds. 

Because this system is designed to play prevent me from winning all the time.

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4 hours ago, Coffeedrinker said:

It's not really much of a mystery or anything.  There are 3 main reasons why VD hasn't played press.

 

1.  The last two weeks VD has been playing against some speedy receivers.  Vontae has some great attributes as a corner but deep speed is not one of them and never has been.

2.  The run defense is greatly improved, so they don't need VD for run support as much.

3.  because of the improved run D they were trying to force things so Hoyer would have to beat them throwing the ball.  When you do that, you want to keep everything in front of the DBs.  It's the old cover 2 philosophy, force a QB to play perfectly for 8-10-12 plays in a row to march downfield.  They were banking on Hoyer not being able to do that.

 

 

 

Last game was horribly called he should've never been matched up with Goodwin it should've been Garçon & to make matters worse Davis has always sucked in off coverage or zone but put him man to man press coverage with a physical receiver he's shut them down..now when it comes to speed I'd rather them out I guess Melvin on them and have hooker over he top

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47 minutes ago, will426 said:

Last game was horribly called he should've never been matched up with Goodwin it should've been Garçon & to make matters worse Davis has always sucked in off coverage or zone but put him man to man press coverage with a physical receiver he's shut them down..now when it comes to speed I'd rather them out I guess Melvin on them and have hooker over he top

I don't mind him matched up with Goodwin, he has covered Gronk well in the past.  But like the announcer said a few times, when you have man coverage you should not be focusing on the run at all until the ball is out of the QB's hands.

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1 hour ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I don't mind him matched up with Goodwin, he has covered Gronk well in the past.  But like the announcer said a few times, when you have man coverage you should not be focusing on the run at all until the ball is out of the QB's hands.

That play he got beat by Goodwin he wasn't playing the run though just off coverage but the one he gave up to Kittle he bit on the run badly. I'm just tired of them not playing our corners to thier strength if we look at the past years other than that #2 corner spot we've been solid at corner and looked decent playing press only time we've struggled was when in zone or playing 10 yards off 

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37 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

They probably play a lot of zone because all of the young guys in the secondary.

 

That said, the zone is terrible. Every QB will eat us alive if we keep playing it.

Yeah that's probably why but it's a horrible decision when they've shown they're better playing press..this is where the coaches need to take the blame for not realizing that 

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On 10/10/2017 at 6:38 AM, ColtsBlitz said:

This is where he excels yet he is off the ball most of the time at least 8 yards. I know Quincy Wilson is pretty good at press man too so if they can both do it, why aren't they? I feel like that would help the pass rush by throwing off the QBs timing by .5 seconds. 

 

He's a corner coming off of a groin injury, & that's just a bad combination. It's likely that throwing him out there in press coverage while he's still trying to get his legs underneath him wouldn't yield very good results.

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15 hours ago, will426 said:

Yeah that's probably why but it's a horrible decision when they've shown they're better playing press..this is where the coaches need to take the blame for not realizing that 

 

They realize that, but man is even more dangerous with inexperienced players. Playing zone they at least cover the entire field, and keep (well, mostly keep) receivers in front of them. So there will be always someone to stop the receiver, make the tackle. Put these guys in man and opponent OC's will immediately put their receivers in bunch formations, use 5-10 yard pick plays to separate one receiver, and he'll run 50-60 yards after the catch because there will be no one in that area of the field, because the guy on that side followed his own receiver.

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6 minutes ago, Peterk2011 said:

 

They realize that, but man is even more dangerous with inexperienced players. Playing zone they at least cover the entire field, and keep (well, mostly keep) receivers in front of them. So there will be always someone to stop the receiver, make the tackle. Put these guys in man and opponent OC's will immediately put their receivers in bunch formations, use 5-10 yard pick plays to separate one receiver, and he'll run 50-60 yards after the catch because there will be no one in that area of the field, because the guy on that side followed his own receiver.

You're right but not everyone is inexperienced you shift the  free safety to the 2nd reciever along with the #2 Corner. You can leave Davis on and island he's done it before without safety help and has succeeded way more than he's failed. Your slot  pretty & whoever is covering the tightend would pretty much be the guys you have to worry about.  But as we've seen even playing off coverage seeing things we've given up huge plays even that far deep and these 3rd and 17-20 situations where we allow them to convert is even more ridiculous especially playing Off coverage  I'd take the pains in press than in zone anyday at least you know it'll be more physical and contested to disrupt the receiver rather than letting them sprint full speed off the line.

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Then we're probably lucky that it's Ted and not you who is coaching the defense. :D

 

I've been watching the Denver defense a lot in recent years, and even they go zone as soon as one of their 3 guys (Talib, Harris, Roby) goes down / is not on the field. despite, at the moment, their worst corner is probably better, than our best corner... We have Hooker and Farley at safety, both guys are rookies. We have Melvin, Davis and Hairston at corner. On of them is a rookie, one of them has how many? maybe 20? - carreer starts, and one of them just coming back from injury. And we have Milton, Desir and Moore backing them up. This is not a setup you go press man with, if you don't want to see DPIs / yellow flags in every third pass play and 50-60 yards home runs in every fifth play.... ;) These guys need to acclimatize, learn their role, get to know each other first. Let them make their mistakes - because they'll commit many - the way which at least allows you to limit the damage. 

 

(Btw, you can't put Davis on and island because he can't lock one side of the field alone any more. He is not who he was 3 years ago.)

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On 10/10/2017 at 1:47 PM, ColtsBlitz said:

They usually take advantage of his positioning and throw a short out or an in cut route. I know what you mean and I don't think he's coming back, but he should be able to stay in enough shape to play press at 29(?). Patrick Peterson is older and much much better. Work ethic involved there. 

He's coming off a pretty significant hamstring injury... I would have thought he is being given the 5 - 8 yards to ease him back into the game and not put so much strain on those hammys yet. He'll get there, but it might be a few more weeks.

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