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Pagano called the team pitiful after Dallas preseason game


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14 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Goff has looked pretty good already under the guidance of Sean McVay.     Looks totally different than last year.    Night and Day different.

 

That game will not be a gimmie,  and I won't be surprised if we lose....     and maybe even lose badly.

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Horse Shoe Heaven said:

Unfortunattely I agree with you, throw in its opening day, and La's defense is REALLY GOOD! And they can run the ball, and well we cant stop the run. Ohhhh Noooo just writing this I feeling worst by the second!!

 

People should not sleep on the Rams.  Goff is now in his second year (the game slows down) and they added a dynamic play maker in Sammy Watkins to go with Robert Woods, Cooper Kupp, and (if they can get him healthy and work him into the O scheme) Tevon Austin. So, to go with a strong D, their O may be growing up as well. New HC, new OC, new QB coach, new O line coach. Focused on improving their O line.

 

Winning any game in the NFL is not easy.  Very often, just a couple plays during the game out of 60 minutes of play decides the winner.  Everyone needs to be prepared and out execute the men in front of them.

 

 

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9 hours ago, southwest1 said:

I'm not putting you in this category Restored, but I get the sense from some fans that they tend to focus on Pagano's first few season's here as opposed to the last 2 yrs missing the playoffs. The NFL is a what have you done for me lately league as you alluded to in your last paragraph. 

 

I'm sorry I don't buy that Chuck was powerless to Ryan's alter ego arrogant ways even though this was Pagano's first shot at being an NFL head coach. Yes, I'm well aware of Grigson's desire to keep Trent Richardson in the starting rotation longer then Chuck may have wanted. So want. Chuck isn't some delicate little flower man. Come on. You have a private meeting 1 on 1 with your GM & express your concerns that Richardson isn't pulling his weight in your estimation & you strongly suggest altering INDY's RB rotation. If that doesn't work, you go straight to Jimmy & say "Look, I've discussed this with Ryan & we fail to see eye to eye here on our ground game lineup. I'm not trying to step on anybody's toes here. I just wanna win games for this franchise & let's shake things up a bit to see if we can ignite a spark on offense. I don't believe I'm in the wrong here. What do you think Mr. Irsay?" 

 

Deflate Gate or playing in the AFC Championship Game proves that there was enough talent, teamwork, & chemistry on the roster & in the front office to at least compete for a ring Restored. All franchises have rifts in them even the Steelers, Seahawks, & Patriots. 

 

"I honestly thought changing out a good portion of the coaching staff and letting them get a few seasons would be best for the team heading into this year." 

 

You have got to be joking. Absolutely not. If leadership at the head coaching position is insufficient, no amount of strategic chess moving is going to solve your problem of not being competitive late in the yr.

 

Your line about "a few more seasons" under the bulk of this regime almost made me fall out of my chair. Sometimes, this franchise is too loyal to mediocrity for my tastes. 

I agree that the NFL and its fansexpect more immediate results. However, to to be fair about the playoffs, the team was going no where without Luck in 2015. No matter who the coach would've been that year.

 

I don't believe its as easy as you're making it sound. Irsay has been adamant about being a hands-off owner since Polian's tenure. It appears easy now that we know how bad Richardson was but at the time, very few could've concretely know. Pagano nor any coach would to make it a habit of just superseding the GM and going straight to the owner just to get their way either. I believe Pagano eventually did go to Irsay but likely not until he tried working it out with Grigson man to man. Maybe that process took longer then most people would've liked but I can't fault either of them in that sense.

 

If that were true, this team would have had sustained success beyond that year. The team that year had some of the same inconsistency issues that stem from coaching while some of the bad drafting finally caught up to them. Yes, other organizations have rifts but those teams don't have those issues reach public level like it did with Pagano and Grigson. I don't think their relationship started that way either. It took time for it to deteriorate.

 

So the solution is to change out the coaching staff AGAIN after one season? Really? How is that suppose to benefit Luck, who was already projected to miss most of the offseason? Expecting him to not only rehab but learn the an entirely new offense without an offseason is expecting a lot. Not to mention you're having a whole new staff teaching new concepts/schemes after having players just learn a new system one season prior. There was no point in getting rid of an entire system and staff after just one season. Teams like the Browns do that and look at where they end up each season.

 

I'm not saying a few more seasons beyond this one. I said give the staff a few seasons (2 counting this one to be exact). If the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, I'm fine with moving on from Pagano and his staff. But heading into this year, the better solution was to keep the staff intact with only year prior. Change doesn't happen overnight.

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3 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Agree with this 100%, however I will say this, when a coach coaches for a certain way for 5 years straight, then has a complete change of personality when it's obvious his job is on the line, the players can pick up on that, even the rookies. It's a lot harder to take him seriously now if you're a player because you know what's going on with Pagano, and they won't react to him the way he likes. 

 

I don't think it has anything to do with the players checking out, I think they may believe he is putting on an act, and they won't respect him for that. This is my opinion though. It's possible that Grigson didn't allow Pagano to discipline certain players, but we don't know that for sure, and it's just speculation for us right now.

 

Why is it harder to take him seriously?

 

If they LIKE Chuck Pagano and want to see him and the team succeed,  then they should re-double their efforts to make sure the team wins and Pagano's job is saved.

 

They should be playing their rear-ends off for Chuck.

 

I seriously doubt they see the harder Chuck Pagano and see an act.     They know he's fightng for his job.

 

Things will get interesting once the season starts....

 

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There's a lot of youth this team has to depend on this year.   It's not a mystery to me why he's putting extra emphasis on people being grown.  Like he said "the pros they know".  The young guys on the other hand you have to bring a little extra fire on them to know how this thing has to be.   I can see what he's doing.  I don't think he's lost no locker room in 2 preseason games.  That sounds ridiculous to me.

 

I wasn't saying he lost it after two preseason games. I think he's lost it gradually the past 2-3 years. I think the way it seemed like he got bullied by Grigson, the repeated blowout losses to the Pats and Steelers, that awful call when we actually were close to beating the Pats, 8-8 seasons, players feeling they're not coached hard enough, and now him showing a more short tempered side. Things like that take a toll on the players. Kind of reminds me of what happened with Jim Harbaugh. He's won a bunch of games, but I think the personality has worn people out.

 

 

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On 2017. 08. 24. at 7:59 PM, DaColts85 said:

I'm rooting any any and everybody in a Colts jersey or shirt.  I hope Tolzein blows the media away and Chuck does a great job, and heck even Chud putting together the #1 offense.  New season that has yet to start...so optimism here I come!

 

I'm rooting for Pagano too. I root him strongly. The reason is, that the Colts has already started their complete rebuilding program this spring with him. It's on Irsay, he made this decision, but it is what it is now. And if Pagano has to go, then we will inevitably press the reset button next spring again. And I had enough of resets. I don't want another experiment, I want THIS experiment to work finally.

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6 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

 

I wasn't saying he lost it after two preseason games. I think he's lost it gradually the past 2-3 years. I think the way it seemed like he got bullied by Grigson, the repeated blowout losses to the Pats and Steelers, that awful call when we actually were close to beating the Pats, 8-8 seasons, players feeling they're not coached hard enough, and now him showing a more short tempered side. Things like that take a toll on the players. Kind of reminds me of what happened with Jim Harbaugh. He's won a bunch of games, but I think the personality has worn people out.

 

 

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I think a coach can be with a team so long they begin to tune the same message out after while. However I dont think that's what's happening here. QB is missing and a lot of new faces in the building. Guys who are not used to playing with each other. There's only a handful of guys left on the team from Paganos earlier years so the overall group shouldn't have much to tune out I think. Its going to be a bit of a process for things to gel. Unfortunately its going to have to gel early or this is his last year.

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12 hours ago, J@son said:

 

All evidence suggests that's exactly what happened.  That's why chuck is still here and grigson is not.

That may all be well & good Jason. I'm in no position to doubt that scenario. However, this is the issue: 

 

Even if I am willing to subscribe to that turn of events as you state, does that mean that you think the behavior of your previous GM warrants that Chuck be allowed to hit the reset button on his tenure here & essentially start over? Because I don't. I'm not saying that Pagano's work environment was ideal. I will concede that point. However, not every acquisition Grigson made was awful & 5 yrs in 1 place after this yr for Chuck will still be 5 years. That's more then enough time to evaluate Chuck as our HC in concert with our hot tempered GM working alongside him or not. 

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19 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

That may all be well & good Jason. I'm in no position to doubt that scenario. However, this is the issue: 

 

Even if I am willing to subscribe to that turn of events as you state, does that mean that you think the behavior of your previous GM warrants that Chuck be allowed to hit the reset button on his tenure here & essentially start over? Because I don't. I'm not saying that Pagano's work environment was ideal. I will concede that point. However, not every acquisition Grigson made was awful & 5 yrs in 1 place after this yr for Chuck will still be 5 years. That's more then enough time to evaluate Chuck as our HC in concert with our hot tempered GM working alongside him or not. 

 

Interesting take to ponder.  Let me pose this... teams that continue to have turnover do the worst in this league.

 

Letting Pagano go will be a bigger reset.  It will be new coordinators, and also new assistant coaches.  Likely , a new playbook for all to learn... new Team chemistry to develop.  And that all takes time.

 

Finding excellence and continuity is key.  Need them both.  Look at the Patriots and Steelers for just 2 examples...  Contrast that with the opposite- The Browns and 49'ers...

 

If you let Pagano (and likely a good majority of his staff) go, you had better make sure you have something better in line, or you slowly slip even more towards the Browns / 49'ers territory...

 

Irsay knows this, and he mentions the importance of continuity at times. This year will tell whether continuity is the path, or a reboot is needed.

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11 hours ago, Restored said:

I agree that the NFL and its fansexpect more immediate results. However, to to be fair about the playoffs, the team was going no where without Luck in 2015. No matter who the coach would've been that year.

 

I don't believe its as easy as you're making it sound. Irsay has been adamant about being a hands-off owner since Polian's tenure. It appears easy now that we know how bad Richardson was but at the time, very few could've concretely know. Pagano nor any coach would to make it a habit of just superseding the GM and going straight to the owner just to get their way either. I believe Pagano eventually did go to Irsay but likely not until he tried working it out with Grigson man to man. Maybe that process took longer then most people would've liked but I can't fault either of them in that sense.

 

If that were true, this team would have had sustained success beyond that year. The team that year had some of the same inconsistency issues that stem from coaching while some of the bad drafting finally caught up to them. Yes, other organizations have rifts but those teams don't have those issues reach public level like it did with Pagano and Grigson. I don't think their relationship started that way either. It took time for it to deteriorate.

 

So the solution is to change out the coaching staff AGAIN after one season? Really? How is that suppose to benefit Luck, who was already projected to miss most of the offseason? Expecting him to not only rehab but learn the an entirely new offense without an offseason is expecting a lot. Not to mention you're having a whole new staff teaching new concepts/schemes after having players just learn a new system one season prior. There was no point in getting rid of an entire system and staff after just one season. Teams like the Browns do that and look at where they end up each season.

 

I'm not saying a few more seasons beyond this one. I said give the staff a few seasons (2 counting this one to be exact). If the team doesn't make the playoffs this year, I'm fine with moving on from Pagano and his staff. But heading into this year, the better solution was to keep the staff intact with only year prior. Change doesn't happen overnight.

Pagano has been here since 2012. How many passes does 1 guy deserve honestly? Okay sure, the franchise QB having a lacerated kidney & shoulder surgery doesn't help. However, the head coach monitors many facets of the squad: Special teams, Secondary, Linebackers, Goal line scoring, & run defense. Obviously, he will let his coordinators run their units independently, but some oversight on his part is necessary & the buck stops with him. It just does. 

 

"So the solution is to change out the coaching staff AGAIN after one season? Really? How is that suppose to benefit Luck, who was already projected to miss most of the offseason? Expecting him to not only rehab but learn the an entirely new offense without an offseason is expecting a lot." 

 

What 1 season? Pags has been here since 2012. Why do some fans view Chuck on a yr to yr basis instead of his entire tenure as head coach? Explain to me this loyalty obsession to Pagano because I just don't get it. When Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys in 1989, fired Tom Landry, & hired Jimmy Johnson that eventually panned out. So, you think the alternate is to make Chuck Pagano the next Marvin Lewis then? I think Luck is smart enough to adapt to new coaching & where he leads others will follow just fine. It's almost as if some fans fear that INDY will regress for yrs simply because we decide to go in a different direction. If the Texans win the AFC South Crown again, Chuck will definitely be gone. Forget the rehab of Luck, look at the entire team & to what degree the secondary improves under him since 2012? Remember, he was hired here due to the Ravens defensive prowess. Never forget that. 

 

"If that were true, this team would have had sustained success beyond that year."

 

Not necessarily. Isn't the NFL adage that every season is a new season with new faces, new players, & different skill sets? Even veterans will tell you, just because things fell in place for success on a squad the previous yr, it doesn't mean that continued prosperity is a given as you know.  

 

"There was no point in getting rid of an entire system and staff after just one season. Teams like the Browns do that and look at where they end up each season." 

 

Again, it's been more than 1 season Restored & why whenever a coaching change is mentioned do the Browns always come to the forefront. Arthur Blank has made regime changes before & I seem to recall the Falcons under Dan Quinn making a SB appearance this yr too. Do not fear change embrace it. 

 

 

 

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49 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

That may all be well & good Jason. I'm in no position to doubt that scenario. However, this is the issue: 

 

Even if I am willing to subscribe to that turn of events as you state, does that mean that you think the behavior of your previous GM warrants that Chuck be allowed to hit the reset button on his tenure here & essentially start over? Because I don't. I'm not saying that Pagano's work environment was ideal. I will concede that point. However, not every acquisition Grigson made was awful & 5 yrs in 1 place after this yr for Chuck will still be 5 years. That's more then enough time to evaluate Chuck as our HC in concert with our hot tempered GM working alongside him or not. 

 

No, I don't think you hit the reset button. Not at all. I do think though that giving him this season is perfectly fair. And if we continue to see the same issues this year then I am all for a replacement. 

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44 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Pagano has been here since 2012. How many passes does 1 guy deserve honestly? Okay sure, the franchise QB having a lacerated kidney & shoulder surgery doesn't help. However, the head coach monitors many facets of the squad: Special teams, Secondary, Linebackers, Goal line scoring, & run defense. Obviously, he will let his coordinators run their units independently, but some oversight on his part is necessary & the buck stops with him. It just does. 

 

"So the solution is to change out the coaching staff AGAIN after one season? Really? How is that suppose to benefit Luck, who was already projected to miss most of the offseason? Expecting him to not only rehab but learn the an entirely new offense without an offseason is expecting a lot." 

 

What 1 season? Pags has been here since 2012. Why do some fans view Chuck on a yr to yr basis instead of his entire tenure as head coach? Explain to me this loyalty obsession to Pagano because I just don't get it. When Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys in 1989, fired Tom Landry, & hired Jimmy Johnson that eventually panned out. So, you think the alternate is to make Chuck Pagano the next Marvin Lewis then? I think Luck is smart enough to adapt to new coaching & where he leads others will follow just fine. It's almost as if some fans fear that INDY will regress for yrs simply because we decide to go in a different direction. If the Texans win the AFC South Crown again, Chuck will definitely be gone. Forget the rehab of Luck, look at the entire team & to what degree the secondary improves under him since 2012? Remember, he was hired here due to the Ravens defensive prowess. Never forget that. 

 

"If that were true, this team would have had sustained success beyond that year."

 

Not necessarily. Isn't the NFL adage that every season is a new season with new faces, new players, & different skill sets? Even veterans will tell you, just because things fell in place for success on a squad the previous yr, it doesn't mean that continued prosperity is a given as you know.  

 

"There was no point in getting rid of an entire system and staff after just one season. Teams like the Browns do that and look at where they end up each season." 

 

Again, it's been more than 1 season Restored & why whenever a coaching change is mentioned do the Browns always come to the forefront. Arthur Blank has made regime changes before & I seem to recall the Falcons under Dan Quinn making a SB appearance this yr too. Do not fear change embrace it. 

 

 

 

Irsay has already said that the Colts record would not be the determining factor in extending Pagano. I have no reason to think he hasn't thought this out and the up coming season and beyond. IMO Irsay is fully aware of the changes that Ballard has made and knows we got young real fast. With that in mind Irsay also knows it's going to take time to put together the team Ballard wants.

It will be Irsay and Ballard both watching Pagano and making the call at years end.

The bottom line is Irsay is going to watch Pagano and see how well he coaches. The Texans getting a division crown will not come into play and will not effect Pagano's job. And who's to say the Texans will win the division? The season hasn't started yet. All these 'if things don't happen' has zero to do with Pagano's job.

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I think the Ram game is winnable with or without Luck. So long as we don't ask Tolzien to do too much. Stick with the ground game between Gore, Turbin, Mack and the play action pass. I dont think the D is half as bad as that Cowboy game.

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While i dont think the offense has been good in the preseason i will say ive seen tolzien be able to move the offense down the field multiple times against a real NFL defense. While not great hes not half as bad as given credit for. He moved the football very effectively against Pittsburgh and he didnt have any semblence of a running game. None of these preseason games have been game planned. Tommorow night is not really a full preparation either. There is some planning though so im interested to see if we move the chains more consistently. I think we will.

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4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Irsay has already said that the Colts record would not be the determining factor in extending Pagano. I have no reason to think he hasn't thought this out and the up coming season and beyond. IMO Irsay is fully aware of the changes that Ballard has made and knows we got young real fast. With that in mind Irsay also knows it's going to take time to put together the team Ballard wants.

It will be Irsay and Ballard both watching Pagano and making the call at years end.

The bottom line is Irsay is going to watch Pagano and see how well he coaches. The Texans getting a division crown will not come into play and will not effect Pagano's job. And who's to say the Texans will win the division? The season hasn't started yet. All these 'if things don't happen' has zero to do with Pagano's job.

Look CC1, you & I will always be at the opposite end of the spectrum on Pagano's job security after this year & that's okay. Friends don't always agree on everything. Jimmy can say all he wants that season records don't matter, but they do & he knows it. Will the face of your franchise being on the PUP List after major surgery affect that win/loss record? Of course it will. However, if Ballard has a coach in mind he wants to work with, Chuck is on borrowed time & new GMs prefer to put their stamp of approval on the guy waiting in the wings. I have no idea who Ballard is targeting, but to me, all this polite conversation about Pagano being a players coach is just lip service & nothing more. 

 

All NFL coaches are paid to compete for Championships & making the playoffs is a vital piece of that puzzle. You better believe losing to the Texans for a potential 3rd straight yr will cost Chuck his job. Yes, I know. Not every team can make the playoffs & some teams like the Jets, Jags, & Bills will usually miss the post season annually. I've seen the Bears play in the Preseason & that defense is for real & getting better. Here's my point: John Fox has not exactly had a franchise QB since he left Denver & yet Chicago flies to the ball & they have a formidable running game. Da Bears may not have an offensive juggernaut but they aren't going down without a fight. Can Chuck inspire INDY defense & running game to exceed expectations & make the Colts competitive without an established veteran there? Maybe, but I have my reservations. 

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6 hours ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Interesting take to ponder.  Let me pose this... teams that continue to have turnover do the worst in this league.

 

Letting Pagano go will be a bigger reset.  It will be new coordinators, and also new assistant coaches.  Likely , a new playbook for all to learn... new Team chemistry to develop.  And that all takes time.

 

Finding excellence and continuity is key.  Need them both.  Look at the Patriots and Steelers for just 2 examples...  Contrast that with the opposite- The Browns and 49'ers...

 

If you let Pagano (and likely a good majority of his staff) go, you had better make sure you have something better in line, or you slowly slip even more towards the Browns / 49'ers territory...

 

Irsay knows this, and he mentions the importance of continuity at times. This year will tell whether continuity is the path, or a reboot is needed.

CBFL, 

 

Since Jimmy has been the owner & we have been blessed with the elite talents of Manning & Luck, INDY hasn't had the turnover & regime change of say the Raiders or the Jets. Plus, Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, & Pagano have all been given ample to instill their football programs & philosophies on the field & in the locker room. 

 

The reason why Pittsburgh & New England have continuity is that they have multiple Lombardi trophies under their franchise belts. There is no need to alter the head coaching structure at all because they continue to be competitive yr in; yr out. 

 

You don't necessarily have to disband the entire staff. Fire Pagano, promote Philbin, & make sure that Joe still has a heavy hand on our o-line. 

 

There's a double edged sword to continuity--Becoming such a slave to it that you are petrified to make a change for fear that the fate of your team might decline so let's not rock the boat at all. 

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6 hours ago, J@son said:

 

No, I don't think you hit the reset button. Not at all. I do think though that giving him this season is perfectly fair. And if we continue to see the same issues this year then I am all for a replacement. 

I appreciate your clarification here. Thank you. I was fine with giving Chuck another yr since he was robbed of his 1st yr due to getting life saving chemo treatments. It only seemed fair to me. Exactly, if we continue to struggle with the same setbacks after 2017, bring in a new coach or promote an existing coordinator like Philbin. 

 

We finally agree on something. Nice. 

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28 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

Look CC1, you & I will always be at the opposite end of the spectrum on Pagano's job security after this year & that's okay. Friends don't always agree on everything. Jimmy can say all he wants that season records don't matter, but they do & he knows it. Will the face of your franchise being on the PUP List after major surgery affect that win/loss record? Of course it will. However, if Ballard has a coach in mind he wants to work with, Chuck is on borrowed time & new GMs prefer to put their stamp of approval on the guy waiting in the wings. I have no idea who Ballard is targeting, but to me, all this polite conversation about Pagano being a players coach is just lip service & nothing more. 

 

All NFL coaches are paid to compete for Championships & making the playoffs is a vital piece of that puzzle. You better believe losing to the Texans for a potential 3rd straight yr will cost Chuck his job. Yes, I know. Not every team can make the playoffs & some teams like the Jets, Jags, & Bills will usually miss the post season annually. I've seen the Bears play in the Preseason & that defense is for real & getting better. Here's my point: John Fox has not exactly had a franchise QB since he left Denver & yet Chicago flies to the ball & they have a formidable running game. Da Bears may not have an offensive juggernaut but they aren't going down without a fight. Can Chuck inspire INDY defense & running game to exceed expectations & make the Colts competitive without an established veteran there? Maybe, but I have my reservations. 

That is just it SW. You assume Ballard is targeting a new head coach. That is something neither one of us knows. If Chuck does a good job at coaching and Irsay and Ballard feels he deserves to carry on, he will. IMO the win-loss record will not be a factor. Irsay has already set up either way he goes by already saying that. IMO Irsay made that comment knowing Chuck would be facing an uphill battle with the new direction that Ballard is sending the team. Maybe you think Pagano needs to make a silk purse out of a sows ear to keep his job but I don't think so. Irsay will give Pagano a chance to do his job, that's all. Chuck deserves the chance regardless of what some think.

As far as what you call all this polite conversation about Pagano being a players coach is just lip service and nothing more?  Pagano is a players coach, always has been. Even so much some of the players have made open comments about Grigson  interfering with Pagno doing his job. Where you come up with that I haven't a clue? :scratch:

I guess we have no choice but to let this all play out.

On a side thought I think getting Luck on the field does inspire this team both the offense and defense. Getting our leader back on the field will make a huge difference.

 

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31 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

That is just it SW. You assume Ballard is targeting a new head coach. That is something neither one of us knows. If Chuck does a good job at coaching and Irsay and Ballard feels he deserves to carry on, he will. IMO the win-loss record will not be a factor. Irsay has already set up either way he goes by already saying that. IMO Irsay made that comment knowing Chuck would be facing an uphill battle with the new direction that Ballard is sending the team. Maybe you think Pagano needs to make a silk purse out of a sows ear to keep his job but I don't think so. Irsay will give Pagano a chance to do his job, that's all. Chuck deserves the chance regardless of what some think.

As far as what you call all this polite conversation about Pagano being a players coach is just lip service and nothing more?  Pagano is a players coach, always has been. Even so much some of the players have made open comments about Grigson  interfering with Pagno doing his job. Where you come up with that I haven't a clue? :scratch:

I guess we have no choice but to let this all play out.

On a side thought I think getting Luck on the field does inspire this team both the offense and defense. Getting our leader back on the field will make a huge difference.

 

That is true CC1. I have no proof what Ballard is thinking. I just know that out of habit new GMs like to pick the head coach they will be working with for the long haul. That is usually what happens in a coach's lame duck yr meaning final yr on their contract or extension. Could I be misreading the tea leaves? Absolutely. Perhaps, Chris really enjoys working with Pagano & he feels the proper pieces weren't put around him to mold & refine. That's certainly true on defense, even I will admit that. 

 

No one is looking to sabotage Chuck deliberately or pray for his demise. I just have a problem laying all the blame for Indy's struggles completely at the feet of Grigson like because this was Pagano's 1st NFL HC gig, Chuck was too intimidated to speak up on his own behalf. Now, to Jason's point earlier in this thread, Pags might have spoken up, been polite, & still gotten overruled by the GM & owner despite his concerns about the roster or trajectory of the team that he disagreed with. That is entirely possible. I realize there's a fine line between demanding something, surrendering something, & burning a bridge or working relationship down to the ground. The last thing Chuck wants to be perceived as is a toxic, contentious dude who is hard to work with & doesn't play well with others. If we can agree that this is a make it or break yr for Pagano, I'm cool with that. I just think at least making the Playoffs is a requirement. Look, I realize that without Luck that feat becomes almost impossible to reach. However, good coaching should show itself even when your team is operating under a second string backup. I don't expect miracles here just keep clawing & fighting & don't throw in the towel. 

 

My biggest fear is this. We miss the post season for a 3rd yr, Jimmy says well you didn't have Luck, the locker room sang your praises, lets give you another 4 yr extension. Whoa, now wait a minute there. Do we really wanna extend a coach a 3rd time who can't hang with the Steelers or the Pats? No, because we need to defeat them in the AFC to get to the SB. Now, I know what you're gonna say a better GM can surround Luck with better players to take less weight off his shoulders & compete for a ring. Okay perhaps, or maybe a better coach can clean up our penalty woes, utilize timeouts better, & put us in a better position to win every week too. 

 

Sure, Luck's return to the lineup will calm many fans fears & put them at ease. I just don't feel all that sorry for Chuck personally. He works for a top tier franchise. The owner isn't a cheap skate. The fan base is extremely loyal & he has a coach's dream to work with at QB. Pagano isn't coaching for say the Lions who nobody sees as a viable Lombardi threat even under the helm of Matthew Stafford. 

 

While it's true Grigson left a lot to be desired as a GM, Atlanta has never won a SB despite having a great GM in Thomas Dimitroff.

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2 hours ago, southwest1 said:

That is true CC1. I have no proof what Ballard is thinking. I just know that out of habit new GMs like to pick the head coach they will be working with for the long haul. That is usually what happens in a coach's lame duck yr meaning final yr on their contract or extension. Could I be misreading the tea leaves? Absolutely. Perhaps, Chris really enjoys working with Pagano & he feels the proper pieces weren't put around him to mold & refine. That's certainly true on defense, even I will admit that. 

 

No one is looking to sabotage Chuck deliberately or pray for his demise. I just have a problem laying all the blame for Indy's struggles completely at the feet of Grigson like because this was Pagano's 1st NFL HC gig, Chuck was too intimidated to speak up on his own behalf. Now, to Jason's point earlier in this thread, Pags might have spoken up, been polite, & still gotten overruled by the GM & owner despite his concerns about the roster or trajectory of the team that he disagreed with. That is entirely possible. I realize there's a fine line between demanding something, surrendering something, & burning a bridge or working relationship down to the ground. The last thing Chuck wants to be perceived as is a toxic, contentious dude who is hard to work with & doesn't play well with others. If we can agree that this is a make it or break yr for Pagano, I'm cool with that. I just think at least making the Playoffs is a requirement. Look, I realize that without Luck that feat becomes almost impossible to reach. However, good coaching should show itself even when your team is operating under a second string backup. I don't expect miracles here just keep clawing & fighting & don't throw in the towel. 

 

My biggest fear is this. We miss the post season for a 3rd yr, Jimmy says well you didn't have Luck, the locker room sang your praises, lets give you another 4 yr extension. Whoa, now wait a minute there. Do we really wanna extend a coach a 3rd time who can't hang with the Steelers or the Pats? No, because we need to defeat them in the AFC to get to the SB. Now, I know what you're gonna say a better GM can surround Luck with better players to take less weight off his shoulders & compete for a ring. Okay perhaps, or maybe a better coach can clean up our penalty woes, utilize timeouts better, & put us in a better position to win every week too. 

 

Sure, Luck's return to the lineup will calm many fans fears & put them at ease. I just don't feel all that sorry for Chuck personally. He works for a top tier franchise. The owner isn't a cheap skate. The fan base is extremely loyal & he has a coach's dream to work with at QB. Pagano isn't coaching for say the Lions who nobody sees as a viable Lombardi threat even under the helm of Matthew Stafford. 

 

While it's true Grigson left a lot to be desired as a GM, Atlanta has never won a SB despite having a great GM in Thomas Dimitroff.

I totally agree it is a make or break year for Pagano I just don't think winning a division and going to the playoffs is what will make Irsay retain Pagano.

As far as Irsay giving Pagano an extension if he is retained he will get that new contract. With that said a contract would not stop Irsay from firing him at a later time if he chose to. Irsay has the money to pay off the contract either way. You said it yourself, Irsay is not a cheap skate and wouldn't have a second thought if he decided to fire him.

IMO Irsay would still have a problem with firing Pagano with what he did do for the team. I know it's over shadowed by two 8-8 seasons but what he did the first 3 seasons was help put this team in a position to go to a super bowl. All that seems forgotten some how but maybe not for Irsay? Who knows?

Both of us can anticipate or guess what Irsay is going to do but in reality we just don't know. One thing all of us knows is Irsay will do what he thinks is best for his team, right or wrong.

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Many fans seem to be dumping solely on Pagano. Yes, he is a major part of the problem, but the problem seems to bigger than that and involves most of the coaching staff. The Colts have transformed from the expectations of winning, to the expectations of mediocrity (trick plays, restricted play calling, confusion). Not sure why the Colts didn't do a clean sweep when Ballard came in, but it was probably because no respectable coaches would come into that toxic situation. That "history" may be with us for several years (kinda like the Browns).

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On 8/25/2017 at 7:49 PM, southwest1 said:

Pagano has been here since 2012. How many passes does 1 guy deserve honestly? Okay sure, the franchise QB having a lacerated kidney & shoulder surgery doesn't help. However, the head coach monitors many facets of the squad: Special teams, Secondary, Linebackers, Goal line scoring, & run defense. Obviously, he will let his coordinators run their units independently, but some oversight on his part is necessary & the buck stops with him. It just does. 

 

"So the solution is to change out the coaching staff AGAIN after one season? Really? How is that suppose to benefit Luck, who was already projected to miss most of the offseason? Expecting him to not only rehab but learn the an entirely new offense without an offseason is expecting a lot." 

 

What 1 season? Pags has been here since 2012. Why do some fans view Chuck on a yr to yr basis instead of his entire tenure as head coach? Explain to me this loyalty obsession to Pagano because I just don't get it. When Jerry Jones bought the Cowboys in 1989, fired Tom Landry, & hired Jimmy Johnson that eventually panned out. So, you think the alternate is to make Chuck Pagano the next Marvin Lewis then? I think Luck is smart enough to adapt to new coaching & where he leads others will follow just fine. It's almost as if some fans fear that INDY will regress for yrs simply because we decide to go in a different direction. If the Texans win the AFC South Crown again, Chuck will definitely be gone. Forget the rehab of Luck, look at the entire team & to what degree the secondary improves under him since 2012? Remember, he was hired here due to the Ravens defensive prowess. Never forget that. 

 

"If that were true, this team would have had sustained success beyond that year."

 

Not necessarily. Isn't the NFL adage that every season is a new season with new faces, new players, & different skill sets? Even veterans will tell you, just because things fell in place for success on a squad the previous yr, it doesn't mean that continued prosperity is a given as you know.  

 

"There was no point in getting rid of an entire system and staff after just one season. Teams like the Browns do that and look at where they end up each season." 

 

Again, it's been more than 1 season Restored & why whenever a coaching change is mentioned do the Browns always come to the forefront. Arthur Blank has made regime changes before & I seem to recall the Falcons under Dan Quinn making a SB appearance this yr too. Do not fear change embrace it. 

 

 

 

 

Late reply here but if we are looking at the body of work, Pagano hasn't had a losing season. Is he a flawed coach? Sure. And don't get me wrong, I am no means his biggest fan. I just thought heading into this year it would make more sense to keep the existing staff in place while Andrew goes through his rehab in the offseason. Not to mention players having to learn a new system after just learning one the season prior with a lot of young pieces on defense.

 

You are putting a lot of faith in Luck's ability to miss not only an entire offseason but have to learn a new system too. When Manning missed the entire 2008 offseason, he started off the season very slow. That was also without having to learn a new system and having a lot of the same pieces in place, unlike what Luck would've had to go through had the staff been let go.

 

So "every season is a new season" but on the other hand you are telling me to examine Pagano's body of work since 2012? We can't have it both ways here SW.

 

I'm all for regime changes when necessary but the timing has to be right. If anything, I think Pagano should've got let go after 2015 along with Grigson but that didn't happen. But now since a good portion of the staff just got changed out last year and Luck is rehabbing from an injury, I'm opting to give them this year. If they don't make the playoffs then yes, Pagano has to go. We are on the same page in that regard.

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