The Chuck Pagano you've been asking for?

[Yoshinator]

2 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

It's not that I anticipate hardware to roll in with a new voice in the locker room CC1. It's just that after 2 contracts have been given to the same head coach with 1 AFC Championship appearance, I expect better production since 2012. Also, I don't buy the argument that other forum members have made in the past [not you] that our former GM Ryan Grigson stifled Pagano's ability to mold & lead the team since Chuck arrived in INDY. I will grant you that according to former punter Pat McAfee, Ryan was belligerent, condescending, not a unifying team builder, & self centered...Obviously, not an ideal work environment to thrive in. And yes, Chuck has little control over what free agents or bodies off the CFL street Grigson provides Pagano to work with. However, Chuck is an adult who can speak up, voice his concerns, & let his thoughts be known to the owner & GM. He wasn't handcuffed as much as some folks probably think he was. 

 

Jason loves to make the point endlessly that INDY's secondary other that Vontae Davis sucked. Okay, even if I accept that. Explain to me why Pagano who coached Ray Lewis in Baltimore cannot turn INDY's LBs into a force to be reckoned with then? Usually, a guy who was hired for the defensive prowess doesn't struggle on both the backside [secondary] & front side [pass rushers & run stoppers] together for almost 5 yrs. What did Chuck say at his 1st press conference again? Oh yeah, Let's hunt. That dog don't hunt. 

 

I understand that no new head coach knows exactly what they're doing in their new capacity. I like Chuck as a person & pillar of the community. I'm just not convinced that he can take us where we need to go. It's where I'm at. 

I want to answer this question in a couple of ways as well. I don't think that we necessarily expect the new coach (if there is one), to be better than Pagano right away. For me, at least, I'm willing to take the chance that the next coach will be better than Pagano at some point down the road, and if he's worse, then we get better draft picks and can try again in a couple years. The problem with Pagano is that he's mediocre. We never got the proper high draft picks to build around Luck, and now it's affecting us poorly.

 

Also, I said this a little while back, but I noticed the year that Chuck Pagano left the Ravens to coach the Colts, the Ravens won the SB. Not sure if that's a coincidence, but the Ravens immediately brought home the Lombardi as soon as Pagano left, and the defense was a big reason. I need some convincing that Pagano is the right man for the job. CrazyColt said we don't have a crystal ball. He's right. That's why we have to judge on the sample size we have though, and it seems likely we'll just be a slight playoff team should we keep Pagano in the near future that can't beat the top AFC teams. I could be wrong, but the larger the sample size, the more likely I'm right.

[bananabucket]

I agree that Chuck is mediocre.. which is why I don't think we need to be desperate in finding a replacement.  The way I see it, a mediocre coach is just kind of 'there'.  Not good enough to overachieve, not bad enough to underachieve.  In other words, our record will be a pretty accurate reflection of the quality of our roster.

 

 

[southwest1]

47 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Scares you? So if Chuck does have a good year you still want him gone?  You don't want him to be successful.  Even if he signs an extension what does that have to do with Irsay if he wanted him gone? Irsay fired Grigson and paid him. It's not like Irsay don't have the money.

Oh by the way, how many more years of coaching did Schottenheimer have than Pagano when he was fired? Treating Pagano like he should be as good or better than other head coaches with many more years experience is short sighted IMO.

All this talk about other teams don't amount to nothing if the Colts build the right team no matter who the head coach is.

Come on CC1. You know exactly what I meant. You don't give people in most professions longterm longevity for simply a tremendous hypothetical yr [my Marty S. 14-2 example] when history doesn't demonstrate in Pagano's case that his leadership has enabled this team to turn a playoff corner beating teams that always compete for rings. Yes, Chuck got to the Deflate game that's true, but we also got pulverized & humiliated by NE too so, I suspect we'd all like to bury that game & not brag about it. Marty S. on the other had success in both California & Chief country. Yeah, I know. Having Montana helped a great deal. Touche. 

 

Who said I expected Pagano to match Marty's winning record in more than 1 city BTW? My point was Marty understood winning football. A good running game & a stout defense. 2 components his teams always had when he was patrolling the sidelines most seasons. I never once inferred that I was comparing 1 coaches win/loss record with the other one. Beautiful job of bait & switch CC1. Nice try. Won't work though. 

 

Don't confuse continuity of a coaching staff with say a lifetime appointment like say a Supreme Court judge. INDY has a habit of holding onto head coaches too long. Production started off advancing in the playoffs 1 step further each yr when Chuck first arrived. Now, eh not so much. 

 

And why it is an unwritten rule in the NFL that players can be cut or replaced at any time but somehow coaches need more time to shine & prove themselves? Just a general curiosity question I've always wrestled with. 

[southwest1]

30 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I want to answer this question in a couple of ways as well. I don't think that we necessarily expect the new coach (if there is one), to be better than Pagano right away. For me, at least, I'm willing to take the chance that the next coach will be better than Pagano at some point down the road, and if he's worse, then we get better draft picks and can try again in a couple years. The problem with Pagano is that he's mediocre. We never got the proper high draft picks to build around Luck, and now it's affecting us poorly.

 

Also, I said this a little while back, but I noticed the year that Chuck Pagano left the Ravens to coach the Colts, the Ravens won the SB. Not sure if that's a coincidence, but the Ravens immediately brought home the Lombardi as soon as Pagano left, and the defense was a big reason. I need some convincing that Pagano is the right man for the job. CrazyColt said we don't have a crystal ball. He's right. That's why we have to judge on the sample size we have though, and it seems likely we'll just be a slight playoff team should we keep Pagano in the near future that can't beat the top AFC teams. I could be wrong, but the larger the sample size, the more likely I'm right.

Yeah, I would be willing to concede that Ray Lewis & Co. carried Chuck in Baltimore than he actually instructed them 1 on 1. It's entirely possible. I just take issue with the fact that Jimmy hired Chuck from Maryland because of their defensive trademark & usually what gets you hired in a new city; you should be able to deliver in a new zip code. Is that unfair on my part? Probably, but it is why Jimmy hired Chuck even though GM Ozzie  Newsome built that roster himself. I know that. 

 

It's the same reason why I really can't give Jim Caldwell credit for winning a ring in Baltimore. Flacco carried him to a Championship. We all know that. Yeah, Jim was the OC & he gets credit for being there in the 2012 season sure, but let's not act like Caldwell is Sean Payton esque when drawing up plays either. LOL! 

 

You're not wrong in my estimation Jared. 

[southwest1]

55 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We never got the proper high draft picks to build around Luck, and now it's affecting us poorly.

I completely missed this salient point earlier. My bad. This is probably the best indictment you can level against Grigson. He was obsessed with TEs & WRs for the longest time. Part of that is where he was hired from Philly under HC Andy Reid & when we drafted Luck from Stanford; it was easy to get mesmerized by his size [withstand hits in the pocket] & he does throw sweet bomb passes that are a thing of beauty when they connect for 6 in the end zone. 

 

Part of the blame falls on Irsay though. Hiring a guy with zero GM experience who clearly didn't prioritize the o-line until Luck had a lacerated kidney. Look, I get it. Jimmy loves to give hungry guys a chance to try something new & dive into the deep end & I admire that gutsy move on a let's go for it level. However, I think Jimmy learned front office experience matters & there is no crash course in this arena. 

 

Part of it is Luck learning not to crave contact after he throws a pick. At least I hope that lesson is sinking in now. I love the kid, but please let the interception go. Nobody is gonna crucify you over a turnover Chewy. We know you've never had a defense until Ballard came along & yes, you feel like Samson carrying the world on your shoulders for INDY. Plus, you always own your picks & that breeds diehard loyalty man. It just does. 

 

If we can build a defense & give Luck more football touches on offense & Philbin can create holes for Gore, Turbin, Ferguson to punch thru, there's hope for optimism for us. Knock on wood. 

 

If Philip Dorsett doesn't pan out for us, Grigson will go down in flames as a former GM in INDY. Trent Richardson enough said.   BJOERN WERNER I will cut Ryan some slack on since his Florida State stats in college warranted a serious look. 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

I completely missed this salient point earlier. My bad. This is probably the best indictment you can level against Grigson. He was obsessed with TEs & WRs for the longest time. Part of that is where he was hired from Philly under HC Andy Reid & when we drafted Luck from Stanford; it was easy to get mesmerized by his size [withstand hits in the pocket] & he does throw sweet bomb passes that are a thing of beauty when they connect for 6 in the end zone. 

 

Part of the blame falls on Irsay though. Hiring a guy with zero GM experience who clearly didn't prioritize the o-line until Luck had a lacerated kidney. Look, I get it. Jimmy loves to give hungry guys a chance to try something new & dive into the deep end & I admire that gutsy move on a let's go for it level. However, I think Jimmy learned front office experience matters & there is no crash course in this arena. 

 

Part of it is Luck learning not to crave contact after he throws a pick. At least I hope that lesson is sinking in now. I love the kid, but please let the interception go. Nobody is gonna crucify you over a turnover Chewy. We know you've never had a defense until Ballard came along & yes, you feel like Samson carrying the world on your shoulders for INDY. Plus, you always own your picks & that breeds diehard loyalty man. It just does. 

 

If we can build a defense & give Luck more football touches on offense & Philbin can create holes for Gore, Turbin, Ferguson to punch thru, there's hope for optimism for us. Knock on wood. 

 

If Philip Dorsett doesn't pan out for us, Grigson will go down in flames as a former GM in INDY. Trent Richardson enough said.   BJOERN WERNER I will cut Ryan some slack on since his Florida State stats in college warranted a serious look. 

Yep, Grigson made a lot of mistakes. It's time we climb out of it. Not sure how good this will make you feel, but I had Hooker, Wilson, Basham, and Mack all at BPA at our draft picks. So I love this draft and almost completely agree with all of it. If Luck fully recovers, I think he will be fine. The O-Line seems like it's at a level where it's sustainable now, and Luck should have good protection (amazing what an elite C can do). Defense wins championships, and that means you have to draft defense well. The Broncos, Pats, Seahawks and Ravens exemplify this. We need to copy them and I think we finally have a GM in Ballard that is capable of doing that correctly.

[southwest1]

2 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Yep, Grigson made a lot of mistakes. It's time we climb out of it. Not sure how good this will make you feel, but I had Hooker, Wilson, Basham, and Mack all at BPA at our draft picks. So I love this draft and almost completely agree with all of it. If Luck fully recovers, I think he will be fine. The O-Line seems like it's at a level where it's sustainable now, and Luck should have good protection (amazing what an elite C can do). Defense wins championships, and that means you have to draft defense well. The Broncos, Pats, Seahawks and Ravens exemplify this. We need to copy them and I think we finally have a GM in Ballard that is capable of doing that correctly.

If I recall correctly, you live in Denver right Jared? I only mention it because I admire how a 2 time SB Championship QB in John Elway took a 2013 offensive arsenal & by 2015 won a SB as an executive in Colorado. That just blows my freaking mind. I'm so impressed by that no bull you know what. The right GM makes all the difference & we have him now in Ballard like you say. 

 

Exactly, we're moving on up now. That's when I'll know we're back: When Stink/Mark Schlereth & HOF TE Shannon Sharpe say INDY means business & will win more then 7 games giving Big Ben & TB12/Jimmy G. some competition now. A pipe dream I know, but I like both those guys even though they blow us off all the time. They can't stand Jimmy. They think he's crazy, but work with Bayless all day. Explain that one. 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

If I recall correctly, you live in Denver right Jared? I only mention it because I admire how a 2 time SB Championship QB in John Elway took a 2013 offensive arsenal & by 2015 won a SB as an executive in Colorado. That just blows my freaking mind. I'm so impressed by that no bull you know what. The right GM makes all the difference & we have him now in Ballard like you say. 

 

Exactly, we're moving on up now. That's when I'll know we're back: When Stink/Mark Schlereth & HOF TE Shannon Sharpe say INDY means business & will win more then 7 games giving Big Ben & TB12/Jimmy G. some competition now. A pipe dream I know, but I like both those guys even though they blow us off all the time. They can't stand Jimmy. They think he's crazy, but work with Bayless all day. Explain that one. 

I live in Colorado Springs, but close enough. It's definitely a football state here. I knew when the Broncos signed Peyton and built those drafts and FA's around him, that he would at least make a SB. A great defense beats the Pats, and that's exactly what Denver has. They didn't make it every year, but they did make it twice, and won once, which cemented Peyton as an all time great. 

 

We'll be in good shape soon enough, just need Luck to get healthy. Once that happens, we have a shot. It may take an extra year or two, but this particular draft and group of FA's was a complete overhaul that should be the foundation of this team for years to come. When I say I wish we had some higher draft picks to build around Luck early, Imagine defensive studs and you may get guys like Hooker, Wilson, and Basham for multiple drafts. That's what we could of had had the process been slower and Luck hadn't broke out early.

 

It'll take a couple years, but once this team is flush with new draftees and FA's, we'll be competing with just about everyone and have SB aspirations once again. I just hope we can get one!

[southwest1]

4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I live in Colorado Springs, but close enough. It's definitely a football state here. I knew when the Broncos signed Peyton and built those drafts and FA's around him, that he would at least make a SB. A great defense beats the Pats, and that's exactly what Denver has. They didn't make it every year, but they did make it twice, and won once, which cemented Peyton as an all time great. 

 

We'll be in good shape soon enough, just need Luck to get healthy. Once that happens, we have a shot. It may take an extra year or two, but this particular draft and group of FA's was a complete overhaul that should be the foundation of this team for years to come. When I say I wish we had some higher draft picks to build around Luck early, Imagine defensive studs and you may get guys like Hooker, Wilson, and Basham for multiple drafts. That's what we could of had had the process been slower and Luck hadn't broke out early.

 

It'll take a couple years, but once this team is flush with new draftees and FA's, we'll be competing with just about everyone and have SB aspirations once again. I just hope we can get one!

Okay, Colorado Springs then cool. Does actor Sam Elliot ever walk by your place doing a Coors ad too? Just kidding my man. 1 of the most iconic voices ever, but I digress. LOL! 

 

Ah huh. If we can stop Luck getting knocked around like a piñata in the pocket, there's a good chance we can do some serious damage of our own. Is it me or does Hooker & Basham walk into a bar sound like the setup to a really good dirty joke? Sorry, when I'm tired my mind wanders to distant places...

 

I'm still pulling for 2 rings under the Luck era myself, but yeah, a swifter sense of urgency would feel nicer wouldn't it? What's that line from the movie 'Trading Places" starring Eddie Murphy again? Oh yeah, "Mother always said you were greedy. She meant it as a complement." We're definitely on the same page Jared. 

[Yoshinator]

Just now, southwest1 said:

Okay, Colorado Springs then cool. Does actor Sam Elliot ever walk by your place doing a Coors ad too? Just kidding my man. 1 of the most iconic voices ever, but I digress. LOL! 

 

Ah huh. If we can stop Luck getting knocked around like a piñata in the pocket, there's a good chance we can do some serious damage of our own. Is it me or does Hooker & Basham walk into a bar sound like the setup to a really good dirty joke? Sorry, when I'm tired my mind wanders to distant places...

 

I'm still pulling for 2 rings under the Luck era myself, but yeah, a swifter sense of urgency would feel nicer wouldn't it? What's that line from the movie 'Trading Places" starring Eddie Murphy again? Oh yeah, "Mother always said you were greedy. She meant it as a complement." We're definitely on the same page Jared. 

Met Sam yesterday, went to Cripple Creek and saw him, along with Mila Kunis and we chatted for a few hours.  There's definitely some good Hooker and Basham jokes in there. If you need some basham from a hooker, then look no further, we got you covered, lol. I've never seen trading places, so I got nothing on that one, but we're greedy, and that's a good thing. That's how you succeed, a hunger for victory, and to be the best!

[WERC82]

If he wants to get tough on guys I hope he gets it done before they take the field for a game. It's called preparation. Preseason is about learning who you have on the roster for coaches and getting up to pro level speed for rookies but Rogers isn't a rook and should have been well aware before he got to LOS that a decision like that was unacceptable. When the game clock starts it's too let to correct mental errors, you know the whole game of inches thing.

[lollygagger8]

 

 

It's going to take more than one preseason game for me to start believing......but I want to!

[Rally5]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

For those who have been openly wanting a tougher Chuck Pagano,  well,   I think you now have him.

 

1.     When Chester Rogers fielded a punt inside his own 5 yard line he was greeted on the sidelines by......    Chuck Pagano.     An unhappy Chuck Pagano.    And I think it appeared to be outside the team zone on the sideline.     I'd guess it was around the 20 or 25 yardline.      Pagano was not happy and it was pretty obvious.    He was not yelling and screaming,   but he was stone cold serious and there was no clapping or pat on the back.    

 

2.     Afterward,  Pagano's public comment was that Rogers play was "a critical error."       Not sure he's ever used that kind of language in public before....

 

3.     Today,   on ESPN,   there's a Pagano story where he's quote as saying "injured or not,   NO ONE should feel comfortable about making the team."

 

 

So,   we've played exactly one game,   and there are three solid examples of a tough Chuck Pagano.       There will likely be more of this to come in camp.....

 

 

A new season! Good to see your posts!  What matters to me is how the team plays not how he behaves for me.  Tom Landry was stoic, to say the least, and Parcells was animated, point is, personal style doesn't matter....what I want to see is a team that is effective and fundamental.  A game plan the works against the other team's strategies and is prepared to play.  I like Chuck Pagano, always have, but his coaching just doesn't seem to get the results he wants either.  I'm not rooting against him, that's for sure but this team needs to 10+ games this season for me to ok with his performance.

[Rally5]

12 hours ago, Superman said:

I noticed how he got after Rogers after that mistake also. I don't think it's the first time he's done it; he gave a similar talking to to someone during the Raiders game last year, I'll have to go back and figure out who it was. (And I know I saw him do it multiple times to multiple players that game.)

 

But his comments about no one should feel safe got my attention, for sure. He seemed ticked off in general during that presser. And he went into his 'we have to cut down to 53 soon, and the players we keep have to be tough, smart...' And I'm thinking, 'right Chuck, we know, horseshoe guys who love the game, good teammates, the same ol' stuff you always say this time of year...'

 

And then he said 'and they have to be available. They have to practice. ... Injured or not, I don't think ANYONE should feel safe right now.' 

 

And I went:

 

Because that put Dorsett on notice, IMO. And after they just cut Langford specifically because he couldn't get back on the field as fast as they wanted, there's no reason for anyone to think they're above being cut for any reason, especially the players who have a history of missing practice with nagging injuries (like Dorsett, who missed most of the offseason program with hamstring issues). 

 

These comments also came on the heels of Pagano praising Bug Howard for pushing himself during last week's practices, when other players were on the sideline because they don't know if they can go that hard, in so many words.

 

Now, talk is cheap. Pagano's words seemed urgent to me, but I don't think the staff treated the game with that kind of urgency. We'll see how they respond Saturday.

He's always said everyone needs to make the team, only one guy is assured a spot etc, etc.  The only thing that matters is how those guys play on the field and are we prepared from a game plan perspective.  I hope Chuck does well but we have a body of work that pretty much tells us what to expect.  I think what surprises me most is this team has a pretty experienced staff, typically teams do well with deep experience at secondary and tertiary coaching positions.  I don't see that coming through....here's to hoping for the best!

[southwest1]

24 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Met Sam yesterday, went to Cripple Creek and saw him, along with Mila Kunis and we chatted for a few hours.  There's definitely some good Hooker and Basham jokes in there. If you need some basham from a hooker, then look no further, we got you covered, lol. I've never seen trading places, so I got nothing on that one, but we're greedy, and that's a good thing. That's how you succeed, a hunger for victory, and to be the best!

My computer just went poltergeist there on me for a minute & had a mind of it's own. 

 

If you've never seen "Trading Places" before that's okay. I reviewed a long time ago in my original movie thread. It's basically a fictional story about 2 spoiled rich brothers who mess with a black man's life to prove a point. Nature vs Nurture. A poor man can adapt to a rich man's environment &  an affluent man who works for a family company trading OJ on the NY stock exchange can be driven insane if he loses his job, his woman, his lifestyle, & standing in the circles he travels in. Throw in a butler, a call girl, & a gorilla suit & wa la you have the rich guy & the poor guy become wealthy by getting revenge on the 2 elderly brothers by sending them to the streets over a $1.00 bet. It sounds complicated, but it's funny & straightforward on screen. Yeah, you nailed the theme though. Greed or drive is nothing to be ashamed of when it is channeled correctly either in revenge or merely throwing around your influence when you feel like it. 

 

I wouldn't mind hanging out with Sam & Mila Jared. A fascinating duo there. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" right? No one said it had to be a clean one though. Just kidding! Thanks for playing along with my foolishness. You're alright Jared. 

 

I suppose I should apologize to NCF for going off road on his thread. My bad. When the mood hits me just right, even I have no idea where I'm going end up. 

[Yoshinator]

Just now, southwest1 said:

My computer just went poltergeist there on me for a minute & had a mind of it's own. 

 

If you've never seen "Trading Places" before that's okay. I reviewed a long time ago in my original movie thread. It's basically a fictional story about 2 spoiled rich brothers who mess with a black man's life to prove a point. Nature vs Nurture. A poor man can adapt to a rich man's environment &  an affluent man who works for a family company trading OJ on the NY stock exchange can be driven insane if he loses his job, his woman, his lifestyle, & standing in the circles he travels in. Throw in a butler, a call girl, & a gorilla suit & wa la you have the rich guy & the poor guy become wealthy by getting revenge on the 2 elderly brothers by sending them to the streets over a $1.00 bet. It sounds complicated, but it's funny & straightforward on screen. Yeah, you nailed the theme though. Greed or drive is nothing to be ashamed of when it is channeled correctly either in revenge or merely throwing around your influence when you feel like it. 

 

I wouldn't mind hanging out with Sam & Mila Jared. A fascinating duo there. "A mind is a terrible thing to waste" right? No one said it had to be a clean one though. Just kidding! Thanks for playing along with my foolishness. You're alright Jared. 

 

I suppose I should apologize to NCF for going off road on his thread. My bad. When the mood hits me just right, even I have no idea where I'm going end up. 

We'll just put our comedy act on adult swim, the late night Colt forum. LOL!  

[NorthernBlue]

7 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

Lets say we go 8-8 again with Luck at QB all year. How long are you willing to keep Pagano then? Do you keep him for 3 more years, hope he does well, and if he fails, then you fire him going into year 9 of Luck's career when he is over 30 and we start over. We need to know if he can win and if he's good enough. This is a year where he needs to step up to the plate. If he doesn't and we keep him, that is very bad for Luck's timeframe of his career to win a SB. A SB isn't guaranteed, and we may need every year of Luck's career to pull one off. Pagano shouldn't have an unlimited timeframe to get better, and even you would admit that. A decision needs to be made one way or another so we'll have that chance to win a SB. If Pagano is our guy, I'm fine with it if it clicks with him. If not, then get someone else who can while Luck is young enough to win one. A lot of people assume on this forum believe Luck will play close to as long as Manning, but he'll probably play less because of so many injuries. We probably have 8-10 years max with Luck, counting this year.

If Luck has 8-10 more years in the NFL/Indy, then he'd have spent like around the same amount of time in Indy as Peyton.

 

Also OT but tbh I kinda think the Raiders are super overrated. I like em, and they're very good, but that Defense doesn't scare me all, besides 1 player. Plus they won a lot of close games this year. I have em at 10-6 this year.

[southwest1]

7 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

We'll just put our comedy act on adult swim, the late night Colt forum. LOL!  

Works for me. Okay, back on topic. I may had capsized the car briefly, but she's back on her 4 wheels again. Better late then never.

 

No saddle strolling through the broken glass please. Alright; Alright. I'm leaving. 

[Yoshinator]

1 minute ago, NorthernBlue said:

If Luck has 8-10 more years in the NFL/Indy, then he'd have spent like around the same amount of time in Indy as Peyton.

 

Also OT but tbh I kinda think the Raiders are super overrated. I like em, and they're very good, but that Defense doesn't scare me all, besides 1 player. Plus they won a lot of close games this year. I have em at 10-6 this year.

The 10-6 will probably be close to accurate, but that's because of the division they are in. Probably in the toughest division in the AFC, and possibly the toughest division in the NFL (NFC South may be tougher). Raiders would sweep the AFC South, no matter which team you replaced with them. 

 

Also, the 8-10 years is what I think will be the rest of his career. Also not sure he signs with us after his second contract if we can't put a winning team and coaching staff around him. That's another reason we could have time against us, Luck in a 3rd contract here isn't a given. Far from it.

[jameszeigler834]

8 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Maybe, maybe not. Most seem to forget that Chuck is only a five year head coach. He, just like all the head coaches now and in the past has to learn how to become better. Even the great Hall of fame coaches had a learning curve. They didn't start out like they knew everything. Some head coaches walk into a good thing (Gruden and Switzer) while some had to learn from experience. (Cower and Belichick) Just examples.

Even the great Lombardi started out 7-5 and 8-4 but ended his career at 7-4.

Now I am not making a comparison with Pagano to these great coaches I was using them as examples.

Problem number 1 on this team the last five years is that there was no accountability.

[crazycolt1]

42 minutes ago, jameszeigler834 said:

Problem number 1 on this team the last five years is that there was no accountability.

I understand why you would feel that way but what goes on behind closed doors has never been known when it comes to Pagano. In the past he has never called any of his players out in the media.

This last press conference was really the first time he has really done that with the media. That don't mean it has never happened, just not public.

It could be something as simple as him and Ballard using a different method after putting their heads together? Who knows?

[tfunky14]

7 hours ago, Jared Cisneros said:

I want to answer this question in a couple of ways as well. I don't think that we necessarily expect the new coach (if there is one), to be better than Pagano right away. For me, at least, I'm willing to take the chance that the next coach will be better than Pagano at some point down the road, and if he's worse, then we get better draft picks and can try again in a couple years. The problem with Pagano is that he's mediocre. We never got the proper high draft picks to build around Luck, and now it's affecting us poorly.

 

Also, I said this a little while back, but I noticed the year that Chuck Pagano left the Ravens to coach the Colts, the Ravens won the SB. Not sure if that's a coincidence, but the Ravens immediately brought home the Lombardi as soon as Pagano left, and the defense was a big reason. I need some convincing that Pagano is the right man for the job. CrazyColt said we don't have a crystal ball. He's right. That's why we have to judge on the sample size we have though, and it seems likely we'll just be a slight playoff team should we keep Pagano in the near future that can't beat the top AFC teams. I could be wrong, but the larger the sample size, the more likely I'm right.

The Ravens defense was not the reason they won a Super Bowl at all. Heck they lost 4-6 games at the end of that year.

 

It was Flacco got HOT and carried the team through the playoffs.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, tfunky14 said:

The Ravens defense was not the reason they won a Super Bowl at all. Heck they lost 4-6 games at the end of that year.

 

It was Flacco got HOT and carried the team through the playoffs.

In the Broncos game yes, against the Colts and Pats, the defense came through. The SB as well, before the delay in the start of the 2nd half ruined their momentum.

[RockThatBlue]

I'm not surprised. Pagano is probably coaching to keep his job this year. He knows they can't go 8-8 again and miss the playoffs.

[tfunky14]

4 minutes ago, Jared Cisneros said:

In the Broncos game yes, against the Colts and Pats, the defense came through. The SB as well, before the delay in the start of the 2nd half ruined their momentum.

Really, in the AFC game Flacco had 240 yards and 3 TDs.

[Yoshinator]

Just now, tfunky14 said:

Really, in the AFC game Flacco had 240 yards and 3 TDs.

The final score was 28-13. Their defense held the Pats to 13 points. Not even close really.

[gspdx]

17 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I think you are putting too much into the last pre season game. Pagano cant make the Colts competitive overnight with a virtually a new team.

 

I don't think this is about making the team competitive.  Right now it should be about discipline, fundamentals, and setting the right expectation.  If the rule is not to catch a punt inside the 5 and someone does, they should expect to hear about it.  Stupid penalties, expect to hear about about it.  Poor tackling, expect to hear about it. Quitting on a play, expect to hear about it.  The expectations should be high and their should be no excuses.

 

Pay attention to Bill Belichick.  I know lots of people here don't like him, but he is a great coach.  "Do you job".  If you can't then find someone who can.

[crazycolt1]

7 hours ago, southwest1 said:

Come on CC1. You know exactly what I meant. You don't give people in most professions longterm longevity for simply a tremendous hypothetical yr [my Marty S. 14-2 example] when history doesn't demonstrate in Pagano's case that his leadership has enabled this team to turn a playoff corner beating teams that always compete for rings. Yes, Chuck got to the Deflate game that's true, but we also got pulverized & humiliated by NE too so, I suspect we'd all like to bury that game & not brag about it. Marty S. on the other had success in both California & Chief country. Yeah, I know. Having Montana helped a great deal. Touche. 

 

Who said I expected Pagano to match Marty's winning record in more than 1 city BTW? My point was Marty understood winning football. A good running game & a stout defense. 2 components his teams always had when he was patrolling the sidelines most seasons. I never once inferred that I was comparing 1 coaches win/loss record with the other one. Beautiful job of bait & switch CC1. Nice try. Won't work though. 

 

Don't confuse continuity of a coaching staff with say a lifetime appointment like say a Supreme Court judge. INDY has a habit of holding onto head coaches too long. Production started off advancing in the playoffs 1 step further each yr when Chuck first arrived. Now, eh not so much. 

 

And why it is an unwritten rule in the NFL that players can be cut or replaced at any time but somehow coaches need more time to shine & prove themselves? Just a general curiosity question I've always wrestled with. 

The exact reason I made that comment was taking what you said and thinking about it.

You stated even if Pagano coached good you didn't think signing him to a contract extension was a good idea. Maybe not exact words but that was the jest of you comment. So you want Pagano to live in the lame duck roll forever? That is where my comment about you not wanting Pagano to be successful came from. Besides if Irsay wanted to fire Pagano a contract wouldn't stop Irsay from pulling the trigger. Pay him off and move on.

You are sending mixed signals with playing both sides of the fence regardless if you know it or not.

Look, it's common knowledge I want Pagano to be successful and defend him for various reasons.

If Pagano were fired I would back a new coach with just as much passion just because I am a Colts fan and want the same thing all Colt fans want.

The answer to your last question is easy. There are only 32 head coaching positions available. Out of those 32 positions not even half can be considered top shelf. Great head coaches are groomed with experience and very few step into a winning team environment. Most of these coaches hired are going to losing teams. It takes time for any head coach to learn to be a head coach. Even the great Belichick didn't start off setting the coaching world on fire. He started out 41-55 his first 6 years.  There was a time when some wanted Cowher to be hired for the Colts. But it took him 14 years to win a super bowl. There was a time in Cowher's career where he finished 3rd, 4th and 3rd his 7th, 8th and 9th season. Did he get fired?

Even the great Joe Gibbs who has 3 super bowls only won his division 5 times in 16 years.

Bud Grant won 11 divisions with no super bowls in 18 years.

Tom Landry- 25-53 in his first 6 years.

Chuck Noll- 12-30 his first 3 years

 

 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Rally5 said:

He's always said everyone needs to make the team, only one guy is assured a spot etc, etc.  The only thing that matters is how those guys play on the field and are we prepared from a game plan perspective.  I hope Chuck does well but we have a body of work that pretty much tells us what to expect.  I think what surprises me most is this team has a pretty experienced staff, typically teams do well with deep experience at secondary and tertiary coaching positions.  I don't see that coming through....here's to hoping for the best!

 

To me, the tone and impact of his comments on Thursday and Sunday was different, and it was kind of a shot across the bow at guys who haven't proven to be reliable, for whatever reason. 

 

Again, talk is cheap, and I didn't like the way they coached the game Sunday or how unprepared the team seemed, so his urgent words haven't been matched with urgent actions, IMO. At least so far. We'll see if that changes. 

[deedub75]

Wasn't there a rumor going around last season that Chuck is soft on players and doesn't hold players accountable. A tiger can't change his stripes. Now if he were to stop using Chuckisms and cliches then maybe I'd believe he has changed. 

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

Wasn't there a rumor going around last season that Chuck is soft on players and doesn't hold players accountable. A tiger can't change his stripes. Now if he were to stop using Chuckisms and cliches then maybe I'd believe he has changed. 

My problem is what you said. Rumor. Did this rumor start right here in this forum? Did this rumor start in the media?

How do anyone of us know what Chuck does and doesn't do behind closed doors?

One thing I do know is his players respect him enough not to bad mouth and or talk about him negative. That only happens here in this forum. There are enough ex Colt players all over the place and I, myself have never heard anyone of them accuse Chuck of being too soft.

Just because rumors and negative things are brought up in this forum about Chuck does not make them true.

 Sorry, IMO you calling Chuck a tiger who don't change his strips is an example of how this kind of horse dung starts. That is your perception. As far as Chuck and his 'Chuckisms and clitches' goes that is pure coach speak. Every head coach does that.

 

[Lucky Colts Fan]

29 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

Wasn't there a rumor going around last season that Chuck is soft on players and doesn't hold players accountable. A tiger can't change his stripes. Now if he were to stop using Chuckisms and cliches then maybe I'd believe he has changed. 

 

I think this is a perception thing.  Chuck is a likable person, whereas Belichick is not.  So when everyone sees Chuck getting along with his players and saying nice things about them, it's perceived as being a "soft" players' coach.  While people see BB as a "tough" coach because he's not nice to anyone but Robert Kraft and Tom Brady.

 

I think people called Dungy "soft" for the same reason.  SBs are won by all kinds of different types of people, you don't need a gruff, unlikable, "tough" coach like BB.

 

16 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

That is your perception.

 

Exactly.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

19 hours ago, TheRustonRifle#7 said:

I am glad someone else was not pleased with that decision...Chuck, you and NCF so far...it was a poor football decision.  He underwhelmed in the first game as well...don't fall for the "tea leaf readings" of the pre-season....especially early on.

 

Is it possible, just maybe, that Chester Rodgers isn't the future HOFer that some Colts fans make him out to be?

[NewColtsFan]

56 minutes ago, deedub75 said:

Wasn't there a rumor going around last season that Chuck is soft on players and doesn't hold players accountable. A tiger can't change his stripes. Now if he were to stop using Chuckisms and cliches then maybe I'd believe he has changed. 

 

Yes.....    there were whispers about that last year.

 

But there were no such whispers about that in the previous 4 years.

 

If we're going to believe the rumors on one year,   why should not accept that there were no such rumors his first four years?

 

Pagano critics can't have it both ways.     Just because things went south last year,  doesn't mean this was the same problem in the first 4 years.     Remember,  having a frustrating season brings out the worst in people.

 

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I like Pagano he taking a lot of crap from some, as he had a team that wasn't very good, and a GM who wanted to control him, and tell him what to do.

[Colts_Fan12]

15 hours ago, SteelCityColt said:

 

Maybe it's just me or is he morphing into Jeff Fisher??

 

 

He coaches like him. his clock management is about the same.

[Colts_Fan12]

15 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Maybe, maybe not. Most seem to forget that Chuck is only a five year head coach. He, just like all the head coaches now and in the past has to learn how to become better. Even the great Hall of fame coaches had a learning curve. They didn't start out like they knew everything. Some head coaches walk into a good thing (Gruden and Switzer) while some had to learn from experience. (Cower and Belichick) Just examples.

Even the great Lombardi started out 7-5 and 8-4 but ended his career at 7-4.

Now I am not making a comparison with Pagano to these great coaches I was using them as examples.

What do you mean "only a 5 year head coach" most coaches win super bowls before or at year 5 you are entirely way to damn patient with coaching. You wanna wait til 10 years then? Since it's "only been 5 years"??

[bananabucket]

It's been 5 years with a joke of a roster.

[crazycolt1]

7 minutes ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

What do you mean "only a 5 year head coach" most coaches win super bowls before or at year 5 you are entirely way to damn patient with coaching. You wanna wait til 10 years then? Since it's "only been 5 years"??

Maybe you need a lesson in NFL history.

[Colts_Fan12]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

Maybe you need a lesson in NFL history.

Sure lol that's it!! it's not course you are just a homer or anything