More Very Bad Data On CTE Test Results

[King Colt]

The data on these tests was done by Journal of American Medical Association. I read today also that the average age of NFL player deaths is 66. Read below.

 

Jack Dempsey/Associated Press

According to findings published Tuesday, more than 99 percent of brains from deceased former NFL players that were examined for a study contained chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE).

The study was published by medical journal JAMA (h/t CNN.com's Daniella Emanuel), and researchers detected CTE in 110 of 111 brains from former NFL players that were donated.

The study is the largest of its kind and examined the brains of 202 deceased former football players in all.

Aside from the brains of former NFL players, CTE was found in 48 of 53 college players and three of 14 high school players.

The NFL released a statement on the study, via Albert Breer of The MMQB: (Not included)

[BR-549]

Wow... I wonder how closely it is related to position if at all?

[Valpo2004]

Someone in another forum pointed out very fairly that all of these brains where donated voluntarily by players who where concerned about CTE.

 

Now that's not to say there isn't a link.  There is a very obvious link.  But the sample is skewed.   

[crazycolt1]

57 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Someone in another forum pointed out very fairly that all of these brains where donated voluntarily by players who where concerned about CTE.

 

Now that's not to say there isn't a link.  There is a very obvious link.  But the sample is skewed.   

 

57 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

Someone in another forum pointed out very fairly that all of these brains where donated voluntarily by players who where concerned about CTE.

 

Now that's not to say there isn't a link.  There is a very obvious link.  But the sample is skewed.   

Is 90% a skewed amount ?  So what in your estimation is a closer percentage?

[buccolts]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Is 90% a skewed amount ?  So what in your estimation is a closer percentage?

 

How could one ever offer an educated guess.

 

You'd have to have a decent idea of how may of the players who were not concerned about CTE may have had it.

 

You'd need 100% participation to know.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, buccolts said:

 

How could one ever offer an educated guess.

 

You'd have to have a decent idea of how may of the players who were not concerned about CTE may have had it.

 

You'd need 100% participation to know.

True but those who have had test show a larger percentage of those tested do have CTE.

IMO there is nothing that can be done about CTE because no matter how well safety equipment is made it will not stop the brain from moving inside the skull.

[buccolts]

19 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

True but those who have had test show a larger percentage of those tested do have CTE.

IMO there is nothing that can be done about CTE because no matter how well safety equipment is made it will not stop the brain from moving inside the skull.

 

Agreed, and those who weren't concerned likely have a lower percentage of effect of CTE.

To what extent? Who knows.

I'd guess there are different degrees of CTE as well.

[BloodyChamp]

If this were the case none of us would be able to name 5 football players who have the disease or at least symptoms of the disease.

[crazycolt1]

12 minutes ago, BloodyChamp said:

If this were the case none of us would be able to name 5 football players who have the disease or at least symptoms of the disease.

Are you saying that we forum members can't name five? ?

[crazycolt1]

I just looked at the list of players who have already received NFL benefits for CTE and it was over 4,500 players.

The present list is around 2,250 waiting for benefits.

The scary part is there were quite a few where the players estate was paid or waiting to be paid.

For those who think this is not an issue and the numbers are small maybe they should rethink that after reading those kind of numbers.

There are some HOF players and very popular names on the list.

Our own Dwight Clark is on the list for an example.

[bababooey]

The scary part is there is a whole generation of NFL players who have yet to see the damaging effects yet. I don't doubt the study, but remember it is all voluntarily donated brains. I'd like to think this goes down if they had a random sampling of NFL brains, and also now that they have eliminated a lot of head to head contact and what not from the game now, you'd think it would decrease some more. 

[jvan1973]

2 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I just looked at the list of players who have already received NFL benefits for CTE and it was over 4,500 players.

The present list is around 2,250 waiting for benefits.

The scary part is there were quite a few where the players estate was paid or waiting to be paid.

For those who think this is not an issue and the numbers are small maybe they should rethink that after reading those kind of numbers.

There are some HOF players and very popular names on the list.

Our own Dwight Clark is on the list for an example.

Are you a niners fan?

[jvan1973]

What is the percentage of everyday non football players?  Without comparison,  it's hard to know exactly what the study actually means

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Are you a niners fan?

 

Are you a fan of any player that's not a Colt?

[Superman]

7 hours ago, Valpo2004 said:

Someone in another forum pointed out very fairly that all of these brains where donated voluntarily by players who where concerned about CTE.

 

Now that's not to say there isn't a link.  There is a very obvious link.  But the sample is skewed.   

 

Including some players who committed suicide after dealing with significant issues.

 

There's clearly a link, but this study absolutely does not mean that 99% of NFL players have CTE. 

[BR-549]

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

What is the percentage of everyday non football players?  Without comparison,  it's hard to know exactly what the study actually means

Thats true... but even so that is a very high percentage.  No question the study leaves some questions... sounds like an advocate so to speak. Overall it is a sad situation regardless.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

 

Are you a fan of any player that's not a Colt?

You said. "Our own Dwight Clark"

[crazycolt1]

18 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

You said. "Our own Dwight Clark"

My your picky today. I just figured he was liked by everyone.

[BloodyChamp]

Signing on to the original lawsuit doesn't make you 1 of the cases. He said more than 99%. That's bullbutter no matter what the real percentage is. The problem will never get fixed if everybody is going to go this route.

[King Colt]

Compare the NFL head injury issues to this story: Several days ago the Cubs third baseman Kris Bryant slid head first in to third. This resulted in a jammed finger putting him on the bench for that game and the next game. So the broadcasters were talking up the MLB should outlaw head first sliding for fear of further jammed pinkies! Ten years from now running will be prohibited in all sports for fear of a stubbed toe or a blister. 

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, BloodyChamp said:

Signing on to the original lawsuit doesn't make you 1 of the cases. He said more than 99%. That's bullbutter no matter what the real percentage is. The problem will never get fixed if everybody is going to go this route.

I think you are thinking of two different things. Where the 99% was drawn from was the brains who were donated to be checked, not all players.

But there are still over 4,500 players who have been diagnosed with CTE and have already received benefits with another over 2,250 still to be determined.

[ReMeDy]

Yea, the NFL is a lot less collision heavy than what it was, so I'd like to think when today's players reach age 65'ish, CTE numbers will drop significantly. This is especially true in regards to Special Team players, where we have eliminated wedge blocking and have more fair catches.

[jvan1973]

23 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

My your picky today. I just figured he was liked by everyone.

When you say "Our own" on a colts forum it implies a colts player.  That was my only point.  Plus,  Dwight is, still alive.  No one knows if he has cte

[oldunclemark]

On ‎7‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 2:41 PM, bababooey said:

The scary part is there is a whole generation of NFL players who have yet to see the damaging effects yet. I don't doubt the study, but remember it is all voluntarily donated brains. I'd like to think this goes down if they had a random sampling of NFL brains, and also now that they have eliminated a lot of head to head contact and what not from the game now, you'd think it would decrease some more. 

Another point is.....when do players begin to show damaging effects of playing football.

Keeping in mind that most football players play football for six to eight years before they get to the NFL./

 

The NFL need to keep looking for an answer because its their business.

But I wonder if the head trauma damage is done a early as high school 

[DougDew]

On 7/26/2017 at 1:04 PM, buccolts said:

 

How could one ever offer an educated guess.

 

You'd have to have a decent idea of how may of the players who were not concerned about CTE may have had it.

 

You'd need 100% participation to know.

Or what percentage of players expressed sincere concerns about having CTE relative to all NFL players.  At a 99% correlation, its fairly convincing that if a player is sincerely concerned about having CTE, he probably does have it.  At least the result would be a good ball park figure.

[ColtsBlueFL]

On 7/26/2017 at 7:42 PM, Superman said:

 

Including some players who committed suicide after dealing with significant issues.

 

There's clearly a link, but this study absolutely does not mean that 99% of NFL players have CTE. 

 

I agree.  numbers we have now are likely from 'selection bias'. But some very smart ones ended their football careers immediately because of it-

 

" John Urschel, a Baltimore Ravens’ offensive lineman and PhD candidate in applied mathematics at MIT, has announced his retirement from football at the age of 26. The announcement comes just days after publication of a case study that found widespread signs of a degenerative brain disease among football players who donated their brains to research. "

 

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/07/in-wake-of-cte-study-ravens-smarty-john-urschel-retires-from-football-at-26/

 

  OnTuesday, New England Patriots’ wide receiver Andrew Hawkins decided to end his career at 31. He also pledged to donate his brain to CTE research.

 

Bad things, onset is often in the players 40's, and CTE can only truly be diagnosed for certain after death at this time. But research goes on in this regard.

[ColtsBlueFL]

9 minutes ago, oldunclemark said:

Another point is.....when do players begin to show damaging effects of playing football.

Keeping in mind that most football players play football for six to eight years before they get to the NFL./

 

The NFL need to keep looking for an answer because its their business.

But I wonder if the head trauma damage is done a early as high school 

 

" Out of 202 deceased former football players total -- a combination of high school, college and professional players -- CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177, the study said. The disease was identified in 110 out of 111 former NFL players. It was also found in three of the 14 high school players and 48 of the 53 college players. "

[oldunclemark]

11 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

" Out of 202 deceased former football players total -- a combination of high school, college and professional players -- CTE was neuropathologically diagnosed in 177, the study said. The disease was identified in 110 out of 111 former NFL players. It was also found in three of the 14 high school players and 48 of the 53 college players. "

It would seem to be cumulative..and it would seem the damage begins in high school but I guess nobody is saying that 14 or even 53 is a legitimate sample

Deceased former high school players? Seniors?, Freshmen?

 

Got to find an answer.

There is a talk of a new helmet which has a rotating inner core that dispels the collision damage.

I don't know.

There isn't an obvious answer here

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by oldunclemark

[crazycolt1]

5 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

When you say "Our own" on a colts forum it implies a colts player.  That was my only point.  Plus,  Dwight is, still alive.  No one knows if he has cte

He is on the list where he has been diagnosed with CTE. A player don't have to be dead to know if he has CTE.

[jvan1973]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

He is on the list where he has been diagnosed with CTE. A player don't have to be dead to know if he has CTE.

Yes,  he does.  You can't be diagnosed with CTE .  It can only be found after death

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, jvan1973 said:

Yes,  he does.  You can't be diagnosed with CTE .  It can only be found after death

Yes the player or anyone else has to be dead to prove it but I guess you think all the players who have been diagnosed with the symptoms are just what? Faking? Lying? Fooling the experts?

[jvan1973]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yes the player or anyone else has to be dead to prove it but I guess you think all the players who have been diagnosed with the symptoms are just what? Faking? Lying? Fooling the experts?

It's impossible to know if you have until death.  No one has been diagnosed while still alive

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

It's impossible to know if you have until death.  No one has been diagnosed while still alive

Technical yes but it don't take a * to know exactly what the symptoms are and there have been plenty of players who have been diagnosed. Over 4,500 already and 2,250 still waiting.

[jvan1973]

1 hour ago, crazycolt1 said:

Technical yes but it don't take a * to know exactly what the symptoms are and there have been plenty of players who have been diagnosed. Over 4,500 already and 2,250 still waiting.

I don't think they have examined that, many brains

[DougDew]

13 hours ago, oldunclemark said:

It would seem to be cumulative..and it would seem the damage begins in high school but I guess nobody is saying that 14 or even 53 is a legitimate sample

Deceased former high school players? Seniors?, Freshmen?

 

Got to find an answer.

There is a talk of a new helmet which has a rotating inner core that dispels the collision damage.

I don't know.

There isn't an obvious answer here

 

CTE is obviously related to concussions.  Its similar to the head injuries sustained by race car drivers.  Its similar to the injuries sustained by Muhammad Ali (exacerbated by Parkinson's).

 

I think they are all caused by collisions, where the body and head are moving at a fast speed in one direction, then is suddenly stopped by impact...like a concrete wall or another helmet.  (or a boxer who is stationary then gets his head rocked back quickly)  In all cases, the brain stops moving in the direction the head was moving only when it impacts the inside of the skull.

 

I'm no engineer, it just seems very difficult to cushion the blow of the brain impacting the inside of the skull without actually eliminating the sudden change in movement of the head i.e. stopping the collision itself.

 

I think NASCAR effectively reduced some of the damage by making the drivers wear a device that strapped the helmet and head to the car, greatly reducing the snapping of the head and its sudden movement.  I just don't know how you eliminate the sudden movement of the head in a sport like tackle football, despite the sophistication of the helmet. Eliminating hitting the head or hitting with it is a big step.  Eliminating running would also help....

 

It'll be interesting to see what they come up with.

[buccolts]

Too bad they can't go back and test brains of players from back when they used soft helmets, and lesser pads.

And no PEDs, HGH, etc.

[ColtsBlueFL]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Yes the player or anyone else has to be dead to prove it but I guess you think all the players who have been diagnosed with the symptoms are just what? Faking? Lying? Fooling the experts?

 

They may well be experiencing onset of symptoms of/or leading to CTE.  But I'd like to point out there are many other disorders that can produce CTE like symptoms and can (unlike CTE and Alzheimers) be treated.  In addition, there are documented cases of those with CTE like symptoms while alive that were later proven to NOT have CTE upon inspection of the brain after their passing away.

 

However, It seems logical that football players that have continuing CTE type symptoms may well have or be on their way to CTE, Just my hypothesis and time will tell as the research results come in.

 

Bur research for better CTE tests and treatments are ongoing works in progress.

[ColtsBlueFL]

23 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

He is on the list where he has been diagnosed with CTE. A player don't have to be dead to know if he has CTE.

 

For this discussions sake at this time, jvan is technically correct.  But as Paul Harvey (see how many know that name!!) says... here's the rest of the story-

 

CTE is a neurodegenerative disease that can cause everything from depression, anxiety, and aggression to progressive, Alzheimer’s-like dementia. Like Alzheiners, there is no current cure (and both involve the abnormal Tau protein) though places like UC Santa Barbara and others are actively researching them. So a CTE diagnosis is not something to take lightly — and may be disastrous if not diagnosed properly. And there is a place where people can enlist to help in research while they are still living-

 

https://diagnosecte.com/

 

At this time, definitive proof requires pulling the brain from the skull of the person after their death.  But like those researching cures, there are other institutions (like UCLA and U. of Chicago, etc...) researching methods to diagnose CTE before a patients death.

 

IE:
"Researchers at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai in New York reported they had developed a potential method to diagnose CTE while patients are still alive. Instead of taking out the brain to douse it and slice it, doctors inject chemicals that will flow up into the brain, and then send the patient into a brain scanner."

 

and-

https://directorsblog.nih.gov/2015/04/21/brain-imaging-tackling-chronic-traumatic-encephalopathy/

 

I'm all for new and improved equipment too.  OTOH, as long as there are instances where the head in motion comes to an abrupt stop (afierce tackle resulting in a tackled players head slamming into the ground, for just one example), there will be brain trauma and the resulting complications derived from it, unfortunately.

 

[RockThatBlue]

Hot take alert:

 

I feel like studies like this are released in an effort to hurt football. This study is very, very skewed and far from proves anything. Not saying CTE isn't a real issue, but I am always skeptical of things that are pushed as 'fact' when the evidence is usually skewed.

[BR-549]

2 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

Hot take alert:

 

I feel like studies like this are released in an effort to hurt football. This study is very, very skewed and far from proves anything. Not saying CTE isn't a real issue, but I am always skeptical of things that are pushed as 'fact' when the evidence is usually skewed.

You know I had that thought too that it was intentionally trying to persuade.... Hear so much talk on radio shows about letting kids play football or not... more propaganda for influencing parents.