The Offseason Reading Series #12: My case for Peyton Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time

[21isSuperman]

With all the talk of GOATs during the offseason, I thought I'd pitch in my two cents on the topic...

 

Previous ORS installments

ORS1: The best Indianapolis Colts team ever

ORS2: Which Indianapolis Colt are you?

ORS3: Dissecting the 15th overall pick

ORS4: Choose your contract

ORS5: Which Simpsons characters are the Indianapolis Colts?

ORS6: The best trash-talking moments of Peyton Manning's career

ORS7: My favourite Andrew Luck throws

ORS8: Changes the NFL needs right now

ORS9: Projecting Moncrief's contract

ORS10: The NFL's MVP award

ORS11: So you want to draft a running back

 

Mod note: this topic is simply my opinion and by no means objective truth.  Please keep all comments constructive and related on the topic.  Posts breaking the forum rules will be hidden and this topic will be closed if things get too far out of hand

 

Just a heads up, this post is fairly lengthy.  I put a fair amount of research into it and wanted to use as many objective facts and numbers as possible, so there is a lot to dissect and discuss here.

 

My case for Peyton Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time

 

The number one argument against Peyton Manning as the greatest of all time is his playoff record (14-13 compared to Joe Montana’s 16-7 and Brady’s 25-9) and how he has 2 Super Bowl championships whereas Montana has 4 and Brady now has 5.  However, the thing this argument fails to take into account is that football is a team game.  There is no doubt in my mind that the 49ers and Patriots have had far better teams than what the Colts gave Peyton Manning.  Montana and Brady both have/had Hall of Fame head coaches in Walsh and Belichick for most, if not all, of their careers.  Not only that, but both Brady and Montana had multiple Hall of Fame players on the defensive side of the ball.  In fact, this should serve as more evidence of Manning’s greatness; if you look at how many wins a QB has with a defense ranked 16th of worse in points surrendered, Peyton Manning ranks first all time with 93 (!) regular season wins and 9 postseason wins, for a total of 102 wins (for the record, he has 200 total wins as a quarterback, so more than half of his career wins were accomplished with a bad defense).  Brady, on the other hand, has 20 such wins in 17 seasons and Montana had 5 in 15 years.  Peyton has had to do more with less, reinforcing his status as the best of all time.  However, team accomplishments (wins, Super Bowl, etc.) are just that – team accomplishment – so let’s try to leave those aside and look at Manning’s numbers as an individual.

 

MVPs

 

Firstly, let’s start with the foremost individual accomplishment: most valuable player.  In his career, Peyton Manning won 5 MVPs.  No other player has won that many MVPs…in fact, no other player in NFL history has won 4 MVPs, let alone tie Peyton with 5.  From 1957 to 1998, the only QBs aside from Manning to win multiple MVPs are Johnny Unitas (3), Joe Montana (2), Steve Young (2), Brett Favre (3), Kurt Warner (2), Tom Brady (2), and Aaron Rodgers (2).  When considering MVP/years played (I did my best to account for years not played due to injury, like Brady’s 2008 or Montana’s 1991 and 1992, but did not remove rookie years or years as a backup), the listed individuals line up like this:

 

1.      Peyton Manning: 0.294 MVPs/year

2.      Johnny Unitas: 0.176 MVPs/year

3.      Aaron Rodgers: 0.167 MVPs/year

4.      Kurt Warner: 0.167 MVPs/year

5.      Brett Favre: 0.150 MVPs/year

6.      Steve Young: 0.142 MVPs/year

7.      Joe Montana: 0.142 MVPs/year

8.      Tom Brady: 0.125 MVPs/year

 

Peyton is way above the rest, at an unbelievable 0.3 MVPs/year.  The gap between 2nd and 8th is 0.051; the gap between 1st and 2nd is over 200% larger, at 0.118.  To see this graphically, so you can visualize just how great the separation is between Peyton and the rest of the quarterbacks on the list (click image to enlarge)…

 

 

In addition, Peyton also holds the record as the oldest MVP in NFL history, winning it at age 37 in 2013, showing how long he was able to remain a force.  And this data isn’t just for recent QBs, this is since 1958.  His first MVP came at age 27, his last at age 37.  In that span, he won 5 MVPs in 10 seasons (keeping in mind he missed 2011 with the neck injury).  There’s just one word to describe that sort of accomplishment: dominance.

 

Leading the league

 

Secondly, let’s look at statistics to see how often various quarterbacks led the league in various statistical categories.  It’s unrealistic to try and compare every statistic for every quarterback ever, so I’m going to shorten the list and explain my rationale behind it. 

 

In 2010, the NFL Network did a show counting down the 100 greatest players in NFL history.  In the top 10, there were 3 QBs: Peyton Manning (8), Johnny Unitas (6), and Joe Montana (2).  Of all of the QBs on the list, only Tom Brady and Peyton Manning continued their careers after the program aired, giving them an opportunity to add to their stats and accolades and improve their rankings.  Thus, the QBs who would potentially be in the top 10 if the list was redone today would be Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Johnny Unitas, and Joe Montana, since it's not likely for a player to be completely left off of the list in 2010 and make it into the top 10 in 2017.  So let's look at these four quarterbacks...

 

How many times did each player lead the lead in passing touchdowns?

T-1. Brady – 4

T-1. Unitas – 4

T-1. Manning – 4

4. Montana – 2

 

 How many times did each player lead the league in passing yards?

1. Unitas – 4

2. Manning – 3

3. Brady – 2

4. Montana – 0

 

How many times was each player selected to the first team All-Pro, and was overall an All-Pro selection?

1. Manning – 7 times first team, 10 times overall

2. Unitas – 5 times first team, 7 times overall

3. Montana – 3 times first team, 5 times overall

4. Brady – 2 times first team, 4 times overall

 

How many times did each player win offensive player of the year?

T-1. Manning – 2

T-1. Brady – 2

3. Montana – 1

4. Unitas – never won it since the award was initiated towards the end of his career

 

How many times did each player lead the league in QB rating?

T-1. Manning – 3

T-1. Unitas – 3

T-3. Montana – 2

T-3. Brady – 2

 

How many times did each player lead the league in completion percentage?

1. Montana – 5

2. Manning – 2

T-3. Brady – 1

T-3. Unitas – 1

 

Lastly, Pro-Football-Reference.com has an Advanced Passing category of statistics.  If we look at Rate+ and ask how many times each player was the league leader…

T-1. Manning – 3

T-1. Unitas – 3

T-3. Montana – 2

T-3. Brady – 2  

 

What are the rankings like for each category?

Manning: #1, #2, #1, #1, #1, #2, #1

Montana: #4, #4, #3, #3, #3, #1, #3

Brady: #1, #3, #4, #1, #3, #3, #3

Unitas: #1, #1, #2, #4, #1, #3, #1

 

In every stat I just listed, Peyton is never ranked below second among these four quarterbacks whereas every other quarterback is ranked 3rd or 4th at least once.  Peyton Manning is also ranked 1st all-time for weighted career approximate value by Pro Football Reference.  Peyton led his peers the most times in the most important individual categories for quarterbacks.

 

Statistical rankings each year

 

Lastly, let’s look at overall statistical performance each year.  Instead of looking for which player threw for the most yards or most TDs in a season (which you can’t compare because of how much the game has changed), we’re going to see how they did compared to the rest of the league in each year.  For example, 3700 passing yards would have been top 10 in 1985, but 19th in 2016.  In order to normalize the numbers, I credited the players for how they ranked, not just their final numbers.  Not only that, but I did this analysis in addition to the previous one because while the previous one gave credit to players for leading the league, exceptional play doesn’t always lead the league.  For example, a QB being ranked #2 in pass TDs every year for 6 consecutive seasons is noteworthy, even though he never reached #1.

 

The method:

I started by (tediously) going through the passing statistics (completion percentage, yards, TDs, rating) for each year for the four aforementioned quarterbacks played and marking down how they ranked.  Remember, we’re listing how they ranked against their peers, not what their numbers are.  This is a way to make up for rule changes and normalize the data.  I then wanted to compare each player using the same overall ranking (/32), so I extrapolated the data if fewer teams played.  For example, in a season with 28 teams, I extrapolated the ranking to 32 (eg. 5/28 = 5.7/32 = 6/32).  To make up for injuries, I excluded any seasons where the players played less than 70% of that season’s games due to injuries (Manning 2011, Brady 2008, Unitas 1968, Montana 1986, 1991-1993); if the players weren’t injured and simply weren’t playing well (eg. Unitas in the early 70s), I kept those seasons in.  I then assigned points to each player’s season based on rankings (32 points for #1, 31 points for #2, 30 points for #3…2 points for #31, 1 point for #32, 0 points for ranking below #32).  Lastly, I will present the points as average score for their career instead of overall points to normalize for differences in career lengths.  Keeping in mind that a higher score is better, we see that…

 

The results:

 

Category	Quarterback – Score (/32)
Completion percentage	Peyton Manning – 27
	Joe Montana – 27
	Tom Brady – 23
	Johnny Unitas – 19
Yards	Peyton Manning – 28
	Tom Brady – 26
	Joe Montana – 21
	Johnny Unitas – 21
Touchdowns	Peyton Manning – 29
	Tom Brady – 28
	Joe Montana – 21
	Johnny Unitas – 20
Rating	Tom Brady – 27
	Peyton Manning – 26
	Joe Montana – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 20

 

Peyton Manning’s rankings are #1, #1, #1, and #2.

Joe Montana’s rankings are #2, #3, #3, and #3

Tom Brady’s rankings are #3, #2, #2, and #1

Johnny Unitas’ rankings are #4, #4, #4, and #4.

 

However, one might say that this is unfair.  Unitas was not injured in the 1971-1973 seasons, but was just old and wasn’t playing well.  It’s unfair to hold those seasons against him.  To make up for poor play and just look at how each player performed at their best, I removed Manning 2015, and Unitas 1971-1973.  This only furthered Manning’s dominance.

 

Category	Quarterback – Score
Completion percentage	Peyton Manning – 28
	Joe Montana – 27
	Tom Brady – 23
	Johnny Unitas – 23
Yards	Peyton Manning – 30
	Tom Brady – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 26
	Joe Montana – 21
Touchdowns	Peyton Manning – 30
	Tom Brady – 28
	Johnny Unitas – 24
	Joe Montana – 21
Rating	Peyton Manning – 28
	Tom Brady – 27
	Joe Montana – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 24

 

The updated rankings become:

Peyton Manning: #1, #1, #1, #1

Joe Montana: #2, #4, #4, #3

Tom Brady: #3, #2, #2, #2

Johnny Unitas: #4, #3, #3, #4

 

Another way to interpret this data is that when he was fully healthy, an average Peyton Manning season was top 5 (scores of 28/32 or higher) in terms of completion percentage, touchdowns, yards, and passer rating.  No other quarterback on the list can say that.  Just think about how ridiculous that statement is: Peyton Manning was a statistical top 5 quarterback every year for 16 years.   Nowadays, the average NFL career lasts 3.3 years ; Peyton Manning was a top 5 quarterback for 16 years.  Not only did he lead his peers the most, but he consistently ranked among the best in the game each year he played.

 

The counter:

Who do people claim is the best of all-time?  As of right now, it is stated by many that it’s Tom Brady.  He has the most Super Bowl rings out of any quarterback in NFL history with 5.  Brady has gone 5-2 in 7 Super Bowls while Peyton went 2-2 in 4 of them.  Montana went 4-0 and never threw a pick in a Super Bowl and Unitas was a 4 time champion himself. 

 

Seven Super Bowls is an incredible accomplishment and I don’t mean to take anything away from Brady.  He's an exceptional quarterback who will undoubtedly and deservedly go down as one of the greatest to ever play.  But Super Bowls and championships are a team accomplishment.  Take away one of the greatest head coaches in NFL history and how many Super Bowls does Tom Brady have?  If the Seahawks and Falcons do the logical thing and run the ball at the right time and Brady could very well be 3-4 in Super Bowls.  Not only that, but all of the Pats’ Super Bowls have been one-possession games, meaning the Pats could easily be 0-7 (or 7-0, to be fair).  Alternatively, take the dominant force that was Peyton Manning and give him a credible defense (see above note about wins with bad defenses) or pair him up with Belichick and see how many rings he wins. Furthermore, there are no asterisks next to Peyton Manning’s accomplishments.  Brady on the other hand…

 

The conclusion:

When you set the team accomplishments aside and compile all of the individual awards and accolades, the evidence shows that there is no individual quarterback in NFL history as consistently dominant as Peyton Manning.  As Colts fans, we were very fortunate to have him on our side.  What do you think Peyton, are you the greatest of all time?

 

 

[NorthernBlue]

Awesome job. You clearly did your research with this.

 

The entire GOAT conversation is so debatable, and nearly everyone has their own choice as to who it is that it's pretty impossible to fully justify one player over another.

 

I believe it's Manning. He is the epitome as to what a great quarterback should be. Accurate, smart, great footwork, strong arm. He could beat you with his mind and his arm. Always came prepared for Sundays. Just an overall true professional.

 

Also, Peyton's wins over Brady are always more hype than Brady's wins over Peyton .

[colt18]

This is a great post. However any argument is probably rendered null and void because of Brady's latest SB win. Peyton is the GOAT IMO, but I feel like the consensus (especially among casuals) is Brady just based off of success.

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

With all the talk of GOATs during the offseason, I thought I'd pitch in my two cents on the topic...

 

Previous ORS installments

ORS1: The best Indianapolis Colts team ever

ORS2: Which Indianapolis Colt are you?

ORS3: Dissecting the 15th overall pick

ORS4: Choose your contract

ORS5: Which Simpsons characters are the Indianapolis Colts?

ORS6: The best trash-talking moments of Peyton Manning's career

ORS7: My favourite Andrew Luck throws

ORS8: Changes the NFL needs right now

ORS9: Projecting Moncrief's contract

ORS10: The NFL's MVP award

ORS11: So you want to draft a running back

 

Mod note: this topic is simply my opinion and by no means objective truth.  Please keep all comments constructive and related on the topic.  Posts breaking the forum rules will be hidden and this topic will be closed if things get too far out of hand

 

Just a heads up, this post is fairly lengthy.  I put a fair amount of research into it and wanted to use as many objective facts and numbers as possible, so there is a lot to dissect and discuss here.

 

My case for Peyton Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time

 

The number one argument against Peyton Manning as the greatest of all time is his playoff record (14-13 compared to Joe Montana’s 16-7 and Brady’s 25-9) and how he has 2 Super Bowl championships whereas Montana has 4 and Brady now has 5.  However, the thing this argument fails to take into account is that football is a team game.  There is no doubt in my mind that the 49ers and Patriots have had far better teams than what the Colts gave Peyton Manning.  Montana and Brady both have/had Hall of Fame head coaches in Walsh and Belichick for most, if not all, of their careers.  Not only that, but both Brady and Montana had multiple Hall of Fame players on the defensive side of the ball.  In fact, this should serve as more evidence of Manning’s greatness; if you look at how many wins a QB has with a defense ranked 16th of worse in points surrendered, Peyton Manning ranks first all time with 93 (!) regular season wins and 9 postseason wins, for a total of 102 wins (for the record, he has 200 total wins as a quarterback, so more than half of his career wins were accomplished with a bad defense).  Brady, on the other hand, has 20 such wins in 17 seasons and Montana had 5 in 15 years.  Peyton has had to do more with less, reinforcing his status as the best of all time.  However, team accomplishments (wins, Super Bowl, etc.) are just that – team accomplishment – so let’s try to leave those aside and look at Manning’s numbers as an individual.

 

MVPs

 

Firstly, let’s start with the foremost individual accomplishment: most valuable player.  In his career, Peyton Manning won 5 MVPs.  No other player has won that many MVPs…in fact, no other player in NFL history has won 4 MVPs, let alone tie Peyton with 5.  From 1957 to 1998, the only QBs aside from Manning to win multiple MVPs are Johnny Unitas (3), Joe Montana (2), Steve Young (2), Brett Favre (3), Kurt Warner (2), Tom Brady (2), and Aaron Rodgers (2).  When considering MVP/years played (I did my best to account for years not played due to injury, like Brady’s 2008 or Montana’s 1991 and 1992, but did not remove rookie years or years as a backup), the listed individuals line up like this:

 

1.      Peyton Manning: 0.294 MVPs/year

2.      Johnny Unitas: 0.176 MVPs/year

3.      Aaron Rodgers: 0.167 MVPs/year

4.      Kurt Warner: 0.167 MVPs/year

5.      Brett Favre: 0.150 MVPs/year

6.      Steve Young: 0.142 MVPs/year

7.      Joe Montana: 0.142 MVPs/year

8.      Tom Brady: 0.125 MVPs/year

 

Peyton is way above the rest, at an unbelievable 0.3 MVPs/year.  The gap between 2nd and 8th is 0.051; the gap between 1st and 2nd is over 200% larger, at 0.118.  To see this graphically, so you can visualize just how great the separation is between Peyton and the rest of the quarterbacks on the list (click image to enlarge)…

 

 

In addition, Peyton also holds the record as the oldest MVP in NFL history, winning it at age 37 in 2013, showing how long he was able to remain a force.  And this data isn’t just for recent QBs, this is since 1958.  His first MVP came at age 27, his last at age 37.  In that span, he won 5 MVPs in 10 seasons (keeping in mind he missed 2011 with the neck injury).  There’s just one word to describe that sort of accomplishment: dominance.

 

Leading the league

 

Secondly, let’s look at statistics to see how often various quarterbacks led the league in various statistical categories.  It’s unrealistic to try and compare every statistic for every quarterback ever, so I’m going to shorten the list and explain my rationale behind it. 

 

In 2010, the NFL Network did a show counting down the 100 greatest players in NFL history.  In the top 10, there were 3 QBs: Peyton Manning (8), Johnny Unitas (6), and Joe Montana (2).  Of all of the QBs on the list, only Tom Brady and Peyton Manning continued their careers after the program aired, giving them an opportunity to add to their stats and accolades and improve their rankings.  Thus, the QBs who would potentially be in the top 10 if the list was redone today would be Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Johnny Unitas, and Joe Montana, since it's not likely for a player to be completely left off of the list in 2010 and make it into the top 10 in 2017.  So let's look at these four quarterbacks...

 

How many times did each player lead the lead in passing touchdowns?

T-1. Brady – 4

T-1. Unitas – 4

T-1. Manning – 4

4. Montana – 2

 

 How many times did each player lead the league in passing yards?

1. Unitas – 4

2. Manning – 3

3. Brady – 2

4. Montana – 0

 

How many times was each player selected to the first team All-Pro, and was overall an All-Pro selection?

1. Manning – 7 times first team, 10 times overall

2. Unitas – 5 times first team, 7 times overall

3. Montana – 3 times first team, 5 times overall

4. Brady – 2 times first team, 4 times overall

 

How many times did each player win offensive player of the year?

T-1. Manning – 2

T-1. Brady – 2

3. Montana – 1

4. Unitas – never won it since the award was initiated towards the end of his career

 

How many times did each player lead the league in QB rating?

T-1. Manning – 3

T-1. Unitas – 3

T-3. Montana – 2

T-3. Brady – 2

 

How many times did each player lead the league in completion percentage?

1. Montana – 5

2. Manning – 2

T-3. Brady – 1

T-3. Unitas – 1

 

Lastly, Pro-Football-Reference.com has an Advanced Passing category of statistics.  If we look at Rate+ and ask how many times each player was the league leader…

T-1. Manning – 3

T-1. Unitas – 3

T-3. Montana – 2

T-3. Brady – 2  

 

What are the rankings like for each category?

Manning: #1, #2, #1, #1, #1, #2, #1

Montana: #4, #4, #3, #3, #3, #1, #3

Brady: #1, #3, #4, #1, #3, #3, #3

Unitas: #1, #1, #2, #4, #1, #3, #1

 

In every stat I just listed, Peyton is never ranked below second among these four quarterbacks whereas every other quarterback is ranked 3rd or 4th at least once.  Peyton Manning is also ranked 1st all-time for weighted career approximate value by Pro Football Reference.  Peyton led his peers the most times in the most important individual categories for quarterbacks.

 

Statistical rankings each year

 

Lastly, let’s look at overall statistical performance each year.  Instead of looking for which player threw for the most yards or most TDs in a season (which you can’t compare because of how much the game has changed), we’re going to see how they did compared to the rest of the league in each year.  For example, 3700 passing yards would have been top 10 in 1985, but 19th in 2016.  In order to normalize the numbers, I credited the players for how they ranked, not just their final numbers.  Not only that, but I did this analysis in addition to the previous one because while the previous one gave credit to players for leading the league, exceptional play doesn’t always lead the league.  For example, a QB being ranked #2 in pass TDs every year for 6 consecutive seasons is noteworthy, even though he never reached #1.

 

The method:

I started by (tediously) going through the passing statistics (completion percentage, yards, TDs, rating) for each year for the four aforementioned quarterbacks played and marking down how they ranked.  Remember, we’re listing how they ranked against their peers, not what their numbers are.  This is a way to make up for rule changes and normalize the data.  I then wanted to compare each player using the same overall ranking (/32), so I extrapolated the data if fewer teams played.  For example, in a season with 28 teams, I extrapolated the ranking to 32 (eg. 5/28 = 5.7/32 = 6/32).  To make up for injuries, I excluded any seasons where the players played less than 70% of that season’s games due to injuries (Manning 2011, Brady 2008, Unitas 1968, Montana 1986, 1991-1993); if the players weren’t injured and simply weren’t playing well (eg. Unitas in the early 70s), I kept those seasons in.  I then assigned points to each player’s season based on rankings (32 points for #1, 31 points for #2, 30 points for #3…2 points for #31, 1 point for #32, 0 points for ranking below #32).  Lastly, I will present the points as average score for their career instead of overall points to normalize for differences in career lengths.  Keeping in mind that a higher score is better, we see that…

 

The results:

 

Category	Quarterback – Score (/32)
Completion percentage	Peyton Manning – 27
	Joe Montana – 27
	Tom Brady – 23
	Johnny Unitas – 19
Yards	Peyton Manning – 28
	Tom Brady – 26
	Joe Montana – 21
	Johnny Unitas – 21
Touchdowns	Peyton Manning – 29
	Tom Brady – 28
	Joe Montana – 21
	Johnny Unitas – 20
Rating	Tom Brady – 27
	Peyton Manning – 26
	Joe Montana – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 20

 

Peyton Manning’s rankings are #1, #1, #1, and #2.

Joe Montana’s rankings are #2, #3, #3, and #3

Tom Brady’s rankings are #3, #2, #2, and #1

Johnny Unitas’ rankings are #4, #4, #4, and #4.

 

However, one might say that this is unfair.  Unitas was not injured in the 1971-1973 seasons, but was just old and wasn’t playing well.  It’s unfair to hold those seasons against him.  To make up for poor play and just look at how each player performed at their best, I removed Manning 2015, and Unitas 1971-1973.  This only furthered Manning’s dominance.

 

Category	Quarterback – Score
Completion percentage	Peyton Manning – 28
	Joe Montana – 27
	Tom Brady – 23
	Johnny Unitas – 23
Yards	Peyton Manning – 30
	Tom Brady – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 26
	Joe Montana – 21
Touchdowns	Peyton Manning – 30
	Tom Brady – 28
	Johnny Unitas – 24
	Joe Montana – 21
Rating	Peyton Manning – 28
	Tom Brady – 27
	Joe Montana – 26
	Johnny Unitas – 24

 

The updated rankings become:

Peyton Manning: #1, #1, #1, #1

Joe Montana: #2, #4, #4, #3

Tom Brady: #3, #2, #2, #2

Johnny Unitas: #4, #3, #3, #4

 

Another way to interpret this data is that when he was fully healthy, an average Peyton Manning season was top 5 (scores of 28/32 or higher) in terms of completion percentage, touchdowns, yards, and passer rating.  No other quarterback on the list can say that.  Just think about how ridiculous that statement is: Peyton Manning was a statistical top 5 quarterback every year for 16 years.   Nowadays, the average NFL career lasts 3.3 years ; Peyton Manning was a top 5 quarterback for 16 years.  Not only did he lead his peers the most, but he consistently ranked among the best in the game each year he played.

 

The counter:

Who do people claim is the best of all-time?  As of right now, it is stated by many that it’s Tom Brady.  He has the most Super Bowl rings out of any quarterback in NFL history with 5.  Brady has gone 5-2 in 7 Super Bowls while Peyton went 2-2 in 4 of them.  Montana went 4-0 and never threw a pick in a Super Bowl and Unitas was a 4 time champion himself. 

 

Seven Super Bowls is an incredible accomplishment and I don’t mean to take anything away from Brady.  He's an exceptional quarterback who will undoubtedly and deservedly go down as one of the greatest to ever play.  But Super Bowls and championships are a team accomplishment.  Take away one of the greatest head coaches in NFL history and how many Super Bowls does Tom Brady have?  If the Seahawks and Falcons do the logical thing and run the ball at the right time and Brady could very well be 3-4 in Super Bowls.  Not only that, but all of the Pats’ Super Bowls have been one-possession games, meaning the Pats could easily be 0-7 (or 7-0, to be fair).  Alternatively, take the dominant force that was Peyton Manning and give him a credible defense (see above note about wins with bad defenses) or pair him up with Belichick and see how many rings he wins. Furthermore, there are no asterisks next to Peyton Manning’s accomplishments.  Brady on the other hand…

 

The conclusion:

When you set the team accomplishments aside and compile all of the individual awards and accolades, the evidence shows that there is no individual quarterback in NFL history as consistently dominant as Peyton Manning.  As Colts fans, we were very fortunate to have him on our side.  What do you think Peyton, are you the greatest of all time?

 

 

IMO since I have been here (which is now over 2 years) this is the greatest Post I have ever seen! I mean that. My list has been Brady 1, Montana 2, and Peyton 3 - Unitas is 4th. But I would take Peyton #1 if we are doing an all-time Draft. Reason being is, he can carry a team better than those other guys with suspect Coaching and suspect Defenses IMO. He wasn't as Clutch in the SB as Brady or Montana but he would be better at taking a 1-15 team to 10-6 than those 2 IMO. Like I pointed out on the Colts Cheating Thread, the Pats had an all-time great Defense in the early 2000's. Their 2003 Defense had 4 AP All-Pro's in Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, and Rodney Harrison. Willie McGinest also made the Pro-Bowl that season. They gave up 14.9 points a game, in comparison the Denver Defense gave up 18.5 points a game in 2015 and people act like Denver's Defense was the greatest thing since slice bread. It was great but the Pats had better numbers statistically in 2003 on points allowed by over 3 points a game.

[ColtsBlitz]

This should be in the newspaper. I'm not kidding, you should try to publish this

[2006Coltsbestever]

23 minutes ago, ColtsBlitz said:

This should be in the newspaper. I'm not kidding, you should try to publish this

Yeah this stuff here is great. I have seen some damn great Posts in here but this is top notch.

[21isSuperman]

 

2 hours ago, NorthernBlue said:

Awesome job. You clearly did your research with this.

 

The entire GOAT conversation is so debatable, and nearly everyone has their own choice as to who it is that it's pretty impossible to fully justify one player over another.

 

I believe it's Manning. He is the epitome as to what a great quarterback should be. Accurate, smart, great footwork, strong arm. He could beat you with his mind and his arm. Always came prepared for Sundays. Just an overall true professional.

 

Also, Peyton's wins over Brady are always more hype than Brady's wins over Peyton .

The bottom line to me with this is do you have a chance to win with this guy?  With Peyton, as with Brady, you always have a chance to win going into any game.    I don't recall a single game with Peyton thinking "we don't have a chance".  He was always so prepared for every game that he always gave you a fighting chance.  To me, that's what makes a great quarterback.  I don't follow the Packers all that closely, but if I'm a Packers fan, I'd feel very confident going into every game because I have Rodgers.  With Rodgers, you have a chance to win every game, and that's what makes them great.  Unfortunately, I don't think we're quite there yet with Luck, for several reasons, so I'm not always the most confident going into every game.  But with Peyton, 12+ wins was a guarantee almost every year. 

 

1 hour ago, colt18 said:

This is a great post. However any argument is probably rendered null and void because of Brady's latest SB win. Peyton is the GOAT IMO, but I feel like the consensus (especially among casuals) is Brady just based off of success.

To be honest, that's what prompted me to put this piece together.  I respect Brady, but I've always held the belief that Peyton is the greatest of all time.  After the Pats won their last Super Bowl, which was a very impressive win, it seemed to close the debate for many people.  However, I wanted to piece this together and post it to show that Brady's Super Bowls are team accomplishments, but that Peyton was the better quarterback.

 

Peyton Manning made this team into a playoff team: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/clt/2010_injuries.htm

 

Look at all those IRs!  We were relying on Blair White to make plays for us

 

44 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

IMO since I have been here (which is now over 2 years) this is the greatest Post I have ever seen! I mean that. My list has been Brady 1, Montana 2, and Peyton 3 - Unitas is 4th. But I would take Peyton #1 if we are doing an all-time Draft. Reason being is, he can carry a team better than those other guys with suspect Coaching and suspect Defenses IMO. He wasn't as Clutch in the SB as Brady or Montana but he would be better at taking a 1-15 team to 10-6 than those 2 IMO. Like I pointed out on the Colts Cheating Thread, the Pats had an all-time great Defense in the early 2000's. Their 2003 Defense had 4 AP All-Pro's in Ty Law, Tedy Bruschi, Richard Seymour, and Rodney Harrison. Willie McGinest also made the Pro-Bowl that season. They gave up 14.9 points a game, in comparison the Denver Defense gave up 18.5 points a game in 2015 and people act like Denver's Defense was the greatest thing since slice bread. It was great but the Pats had better numbers statistically in 2003 on points allowed by over 3 points a game.

Agreed.  Brady has almost always had the better teams around him, but I think Peyton has been the better quarterback.  As most football fans know, a quarterback is given too much credit for a win and too much criticism for a loss.  It's a team game, and wins and losses are team accomplishments.

 

 

1 minute ago, ColtsBlitz said:

This should be in the newspaper. I'm not kidding, you should try to publish this

 

3 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Yeah this stuff here is great. I have seen some damn great Posts in here but this is top notch.

 

Thank you for the kind words!  I'm glad you enjoyed reading it

[MackAttack]

Peyton Manning is without question the best Quarterback of all time. But he obviously didn't have the most success of all time and a lot of people don't see the difference there. But individually Peyton was better than everyone always  

[lollygagger8]

This breakdown is extraordinary. Excellent work!!

 

 

Oh, and MANNING IS THE GREATEST!!! We are so lucky to 1) have had him on the Colts and 2) live in the era to watch him play. 

 

Montana had the best player to ever play the game (Rice) to throw it to, and Brady has had prob the greatest coach of all time (Belichick) and actual defenses to help him along. Manning definitely did way more with less throughout his Colts career. 

[rockywoj]

I agree that Manning is the best ... certainly the best I have ever watched in my 49 years of watching football.

 

Also, on top of all the stats, which are pretty much indisputable, there was his actual game control.  A superior stud that carried teams on his shoulders, more than anybody, ever!  He was so effective that even the coach in NE that is widely anointed as the best ever (I would make an argument for Don Shula ... at least it being close, anyway) lost his mind out of fear of letting the ball get back into Manning's hands, by that horrible decision to go for it late on a 4th and 2(?), deep in his own zone.  Is there really any other QB that could cause one of the coaching greats such a brain fart!

 

I would say, though, that Brady and Montana were both more "money" when it counted.  No way does that make them better, though, in my mind.

 

[OffensivelyPC]

GOAT.  I'll never forget that MNF game against the Bucs.  I was playing euchre online cuz I stopped watching the game it was getting out of hand.  And I heard we scored, I was like, big woop.  And I just keep hearing us move the ball down the field without effort and all the sudden, it was a game.  I'd never seen anything like it.

[IinD]

Agreed on Peyton doing more with less then any other GOAT candidate.

 

Without repeating everything OP wrote, Brady literally had the stars line up for his greatness. Kind of reminds me of Jeter in baseball. Undoubtedly they're both great players, but I'd love to see history if Brady goes to the Bucs or Jets and Jeter goes to the Astros or Totals. I'd bet good money they aren't the guys we praise today. Peyton I think would have been great anywhere. He did come to the worst team (us) and made us a legit nfl team after just being a run of the mill team for years.

[Gramz]

@21isSuperman you really put a lot of time and research into this.

 

Of couse I love and agree with everything you posted.   

 

Try as I may, I lost some enthusiasm for the game when he retired.  Man I miss watching him.

[coltsfeva]

2 hours ago, Gramz said:

@21isSuperman you really put a lot of time and research into this.

 

Of couse I love and agree with everything you posted.   

 

Try as I may, I lost some enthusiasm for the game when he retired.  Man I miss watching him.

I agree. Watched the 2006 Chiefs and Ravens playoffs. He didn't play great but had some moments like the pass to Clark in the 4th quarter. But I'm excited about this team's outlook. (This  may be heresy to some) Luck could be in the discussion 10-12 years from now, if things go right. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 hours ago, rockywoj said:

I agree that Manning is the best ... certainly the best I have ever watched in my 49 years of watching football.

 

Also, on top of all the stats, which are pretty much indisputable, there was his actual game control.  A superior stud that carried teams on his shoulders, more than anybody, ever!  He was so effective that even the coach in NE that is widely anointed as the best ever (I would make an argument for Don Shula ... at least it being close, anyway) lost his mind out of fear of letting the ball get back into Manning's hands, by that horrible decision to go for it late on a 4th and 2(?), deep in his own zone.  Is there really any other QB that could cause one of the coaching greats such a brain fart!

 

I would say, though, that Brady and Montana were both more "money" when it counted.  No way does that make them better, though, in my mind.

 

Peyton is no doubt in the Top 3 IMO along with Brady and Montana out of who I have watched. I have watched for around 40 years or so - since the late 70's. I was even old enough to remember Bradshaw winning his last 2 SB's in 1978 and 79. I have seen Marino, Elway, Favre, S. Young, and Aikman's whole career's and none of those guys are better than Peyton. Aaron Rodgers isn't better than Peyton either IMO.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

This was great. 

[21isSuperman]

Appreciate all the kind words, everyone!  I'm glad so many people liked it.  I had a little hunch this would be a popular post

[NannyMcafee]

I know there is no way that everyone in the country would agree with this, but I am truly happy I got to watch an artist play QB. That's enough for me. 

[rockywoj]

16 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Peyton is no doubt in the Top 3 IMO along with Brady and Montana out of who I have watched. I have watched for around 40 years or so - since the late 70's. I was even old enough to remember Bradshaw winning his last 2 SB's in 1978 and 79. I have seen Marino, Elway, Favre, S. Young, and Aikman's whole career's and none of those guys are better than Peyton. Aaron Rodgers isn't better than Peyton either IMO.

Thinking back to Montana and Marino, I recall during those years that I always felt Marino was a better QB, but much like the more recent Brady / Manning debates, Montana had the rings, so everybody figured he was a better QB.  I think that debate back then over who was better between Marino and Montana is the exact same debate between Brady / Manning.  Ergo, by my eyes, Marino was better than Montana and Manning is better than Brady.  Sadly, Brady and Montana had much better "teams" than the Colts and Dolphins ... and admittedly, Montana and Brady have generally been spot on in the BIG game .. games that they were able to reach much more often DUE to the very fact that they had much better "teams".

[Surge89]

I remember watching that 04 season thinking I'm not sure I'll ever see a better QB play the game like this guy can...  Then in 09 the Miami game happened.  Utter perfection.  In fact that season was just an amazing display of his ability. Aged shell of a mediocre defense, no name receivers, an average at best offensive line?  Doesn't matter still carries them to a title. 

[BR-549]

Yes very good post and well researched.  100% in agreement with you.  That has always been my argument too that he never had the complete teams that Brady and Montana had and if they switched with PM those two would not have been as accomplished.

 

In regard to the Jets game in 2010 I recall Peyton saying to the media "I can't tell you what a challenge this game is going to be" and I got a lump in my throat because if anyone knew it was Peyton.  He had that concerned look on his face.  I figured we would send them home with a loss but as we know now that didn't happen.

 

Speaking of IR's I don't think Austin Collie ever played again did he?  Man he was hard nosed.  I was a little upset with Peyton for throwing him that pass where he lead him over the middle and it ended up being his second knocked-out-cold concussion of the season.  If I remember right it was his first game back from the original concussion.  Both were scary scenes but I was really concerned after the second one.  

[C0LT5]

 

On 7/11/2017 at 6:29 PM, 21isSuperman said:

My case for Peyton Manning as the greatest quarterback of all time

 

 

Great post, but I think "My" might turn into every Peyton supporters case for being the GOAT or even "proof" for Peyton.

[21isSuperman]

I had to remove a few posts because they were getting political.  Let's please try and keep the discussion focused on football, as political discussions aren't allowed on these forums.  Thanks!

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, Surge89 said:

I remember watching that 04 season thinking I'm not sure I'll ever see a better QB play the game like this guy can...  Then in 09 the Miami game happened.  Utter perfection.  In fact that season was just an amazing display of his ability. Aged shell of a mediocre defense, no name receivers, an average at best offensive line?  Doesn't matter still carries them to a title. 

I agree.  There were many times where I'd watch Peyton play and it would just seem so easy.  He made it look so easy, I was convinced I could be a decent NFL quarterback.  Just carving up defenses, impeccable timing, knowing where to go in all situations.

[Carlos Danger]

Great post... Agree wholeheartedly with your final conclusion.

 

Manning is the GOAT, in my opinion, biased as it may be. Consistently dominant for more than a decade and a half...

[Nadine]

I'd like to add that, when you see a person posting politics, please report it and we will deal with it

 

If you take the time to take shots at the person, you are in violation of site rules.

 

Everybody needs to follow the rules and not use a political post as a reason to be a jerk

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 hours ago, rockywoj said:

Thinking back to Montana and Marino, I recall during those years that I always felt Marino was a better QB, but much like the more recent Brady / Manning debates, Montana had the rings, so everybody figured he was a better QB.  I think that debate back then over who was better between Marino and Montana is the exact same debate between Brady / Manning.  Ergo, by my eyes, Marino was better than Montana and Manning is better than Brady.  Sadly, Brady and Montana had much better "teams" than the Colts and Dolphins ... and admittedly, Montana and Brady have generally been spot on in the BIG game .. games that they were able to reach much more often DUE to the very fact that they had much better "teams".

Yeah Marino may have had the best arm of all-time. His quick release was unmatched. He is definitely in the Top 10 ever, at least IMO he is. Winning a SB or 2 is also huge for a great players legacy though. I am just glad Peyton won 1, by winning 2 that just enhanced his legacy. Only 11 other QB's in NFL history have won 2 or more and Peyton is the only one to do it with 2 different teams. That 2nd one puts a QB on another level regarding winning the big one in the SB era.

[RockThatBlue]

21, terrific post. You obviously do your homework on these kind of posts. Well done.

[21isSuperman]

14 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

21, terrific post. You obviously do your homework on these kind of posts. Well done.

Thanks!  I'm glad you enjoyed it

[Lucky Colts Fan]

On 7/12/2017 at 1:16 PM, OffensivelyPC said:

GOAT.  I'll never forget that MNF game against the Bucs.  I was playing euchre online cuz I stopped watching the game it was getting out of hand.  And I heard we scored, I was like, big woop.  And I just keep hearing us move the ball down the field without effort and all the sudden, it was a game.  I'd never seen anything like it.

 

My dad had gone to bed and I started playing video games in the 4th quarter, but I kept switching back to the game and seeing the Colts had scored again.  Finally I switched to the game and the Colts were only down by one score and had the ball.  They forced OT and I ran upstairs yelling at my dad and waking him up.  That was insane.  I couldn't believe it.

 

Manning did it against that Bucs D, too.  In TB, on Dungys' birthday.  Epic.

[OffensivelyPC]

3 hours ago, Lucky Colts Fan said:

 

My dad had gone to bed and I started playing video games in the 4th quarter, but I kept switching back to the game and seeing the Colts had scored again.  Finally I switched to the game and the Colts were only down by one score and had the ball.  They forced OT and I ran upstairs yelling at my dad and waking him up.  That was insane.  I couldn't believe it.

 

Manning did it against that Bucs D, too.  In TB, on Dungys' birthday.  Epic.

When we took it to overtime, I heard a couple of buddies I didn't know was there yelling down the hall and we watched the last little bit together.  Man, that was just a fun game.  Not fun if your a TB fan, but oh well. lol

[21isSuperman]

I'm curious to see what opposing fans, particularly Pats/Brady fans, have to say about this.  Not looking for any sort of flame war or anything.  Just looking for honest opinions and discussion.  Maybe there's something in my analysis that I missed?

 

@Yehoodi @GoPats @Flying Elvis

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

I'm curious to see what opposing fans, particularly Pats/Brady fans, have to say about this.  Not looking for any sort of flame war or anything.  Just looking for honest opinions and discussion.  Maybe there's something in my analysis that I missed?

 

@Yehoodi @GoPats @Flying Elvis

I want flames . All joking aside I would love to hear what they have to say as well. My guess is they will all use the Ring argument to why Brady is better but it's a strong argument.

[BProland85]

Great write up 21isSuperman! I will continue to argue with Patriot fans why I feel Peyton is the better all time QB over Brady. Yes Brady has more rings, but as you said, football is the ultimate team game. For the Patriots, I feel Bellichick plays a much bigger part into why they are so dominant over Brady. Key facts to back that up, the Patriots still went 10-6 with Matt Cassel as the starting QB.

 

One of my arguments I continuously use against Patriot fans is the fact that Peyton dominated while playing for multiple teams/coaches. Brady has had the luxury of playing for a great coaching staff/front office and the same HC for his entire career, and a HC who I believe is the best HC of all time, even though I can't stand the guy due to his past cheating ways.

[21isSuperman]

5 minutes ago, BProland85 said:

Great write up 21isSuperman! I will continue to argue with Patriot fans why I feel Peyton is the better all time QB over Brady. Yes Brady has more rings, but as you said, football is the ultimate team game. For the Patriots, I feel Bellichick plays a much bigger part into why they are so dominant over Brady. Key facts to back that up, the Patriots still went 10-6 with Matt Cassel as the starting QB.

 

One of my arguments I continuously use against Patriot fans is the fact that Peyton dominated while playing for multiple teams/coaches. Brady has had the luxury of playing for a great coaching staff/front office and the same HC for his entire career, and a HC who I believe is the best HC of all time, even though I can't stand the guy due to his past cheating ways.

At the same time, in Brady's defense, he's played under several offensive coordinators and in a variety of offenses.  And he's done really well in all of them, too.

[VocableLoki]

It's worth looking at offensive weapons too when comparing quarterbacks. Manning seemed to develop the same kinds of receivers in his career (Decker, Harrison, Clark, Wayne, Collie, etc all had similar skill sets) while Brady did play with two physically dominant players (Moss and Gronkowski) the likes that Manning never had.

[BProland85]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

At the same time, in Brady's defense, he's played under several offensive coordinators and in a variety of offenses.  And he's done really well in all of them, too.

 

I think the offense for the most part has stayed the same yes? He's been doing that dink and dunk short screen and pass game for many years. 

[southwest1]

On July 11, 2017 at 5:29 PM, 21isSuperman said:

Take away one of the greatest head coaches in NFL history and how many Super Bowls does Tom Brady have? 

This is a fascinating question 21. Obviously, you're not the first to ask it & you certainly won't be the last. 

 

I just like the question because Tom's never had another HC in NFL besides BB. He'd still be successful of course, but we really don't know how Brady would handle a different voice in meetings & on the game day field. 

 

Manning has had Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, Fox, & Kubiak. While I will give Brady a ton of credit for handling massive offensive turnover on NE's roster since 2000 & still winning, a new coach running a franchise's football program is a whole different animal, which would require some adjustment. Either that or new HC just says to Brady, you just do what you do Tommy & sort out the details with your OC & get back to me when you're ready. 

 

If Bill cuts Brady after this yr & lets Jimmy G. take over, this will be mesmerizing to watch in both Boston & wherever Brady lands next provided he doesn't just retire that is. 

 

Wonderful writeup BTW. Fantastic job 21! 

[21isSuperman]

17 hours ago, BProland85 said:

I think the offense for the most part has stayed the same yes? He's been doing that dink and dunk short screen and pass game for many years. 

It's changed quite a bit.  During their 2007 season, their offense had a lot of the Air Coryell principles.  When they had Hernandez and Gronk, they ran a lot of 2-TE formations.  In recent years, they've been doing a lot of the short dink-and-dunk stuff.  Their offensive coordinators have included McDaniels, Charlie Weis, and Bill O'Brien, so they've had some turnover and change at that spot

[GoPats]

On 7/15/2017 at 2:42 PM, 21isSuperman said:

I'm curious to see what opposing fans, particularly Pats/Brady fans, have to say about this.  Not looking for any sort of flame war or anything.  Just looking for honest opinions and discussion.  Maybe there's something in my analysis that I missed?

 

@Yehoodi @GoPats @Flying Elvis

 

I thought you wrote a pretty thorough and compelling summary on everything. I respect your opinion of course! But as you pointed out, it's something so heavily subjective that two people could go back and forth, point-to-point, for days on end. 

 

You mentioned how Brady has had better coaching and, on the whole, defenses (and I agree). But in my opinion, that's a result of how the Colts and Patriots were built, respectively. Manning has usually had the better offensive weapons. The Patriots were usually a bit more balanced and had better depth. 

 

Maybe I missed it but did you cover turnovers at all? Part of the reason I ask is that I strongly believe offensive turnovers have a major correlation to defensive play. If your offense isn't turning the ball over and giving the opposing team a short field, it makes your defense's job easier. Brady's trailing Manning in career TDs by 83, but he's thrown 99 fewer interceptions in his career. They have almost an identical number of fumbles (28 for Manning, 27 for Brady). Overall, Manning had 279 turnovers in his career; Brady's had 100 fewer exactly, at 179. The fact that he rarely turns the ball over is a huge benefit to the Patriots' defense. 

 

There are two other things about Brady that, for me, give him the edge. One is that while he's had the benefit of great coaching, he's the only "constant" from the players side. He's the only one with all five rings. It's not an accident, or luck, that they've been in the mix every single year since 2001. 

 

The second is his overall winning percentage as a QB. I realize that is a "team stat" but no position in any sport has the kind of impact on wins and losses as a QB does in football. They don't keep track of win/loss records for guards, or defensive linemen. The object of the game is to win, right? And no one's done that better at the position than Brady.

 

Since February, it seems like most major outlets are just referring to Brady as the GOAT... you see a lot of players... Aaron Rodgers, Ben Roethlisberger, Reggie Wayne (in case you don't believe me, lol)... saying he's the greatest ever. Media people, current players, past players... even the sport's most iconic video game has gotten in on it with Madden's "GOAT Edition." 

 

Overall, this is a tricky topic in a lot of ways. Brady is certainly not the best athlete to play the position. He doesn't have a cannon for an arm. He doesn't have the physical ability of an Andrew Luck or Rodgers. But he's had what I think can only be described as the "most decorated" career of any NFL player. Does "most decorated" mean he's the GOAT? Just my opinion but I think it has to. It's all about results. 

 

Great write-up though man, truly. I enjoyed reading it.