PFF Quarterback Podcast: Andrew Luck

[stitches]

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pff-quarterback-podcast/e/50142371?autoplay=true

Some interesting analysis and stats on Andrew Luck in this episode of the podcast.

 

Highlights:

- 2015 has to be counted as an anomaly

- 2016 was his best season so far

- Big-play throws dropped last year from around top 5 in the league previous years, to 13th in 2016

- With that came lower % of turnover-worthy plays too... he was 7th best QB in the league at taking care of the ball (absolutely destroys the narrative that he's still a 'turnover machine').

- This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

- He was under pressure 44% of the time(!!!!)

- There are no breather-type of plays for Luck. The offense we are running is forcing him to play the toughest game of any QB in the league - striaght drop back passes, full field progressions and reads all the time,

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops. This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

- Average depth of target - 13 yards. They are trying to create chunk plays.

- 3 step drops - 91, 7-step drops 220!!!!! They are not giving him quick game options.

- This is part of the reason for the pressure our O-line allows - it's harder to sustain blocks for the full time it takes for plays to develop in those 7 step drops

- Luck avoids sacks very well, but also creates opportunities for sacks because he milks the plays until the very end, trying to make plays. He's in the top 7 of QBs in avoiding sacks when pressured.

- not a lot of misdirection in our offense - makes it easier for pass-rushers - only 9 total WR and TE screens for the season, only 12 designed rollouts last year, which is a waste because Luck is great making plays on the run

- If Luck continues to play like last year, he will have a year with single-digit interceptions, it's a matter of time because he's taken strides in his ball-security.

- At his current level he's a top 5 QB in the league. He's in for a big-time year.

[TKnight24]

 

 

[TKnight24]

 

[Flash7]

I actually do not expect a big year for Andrew this year. He hasn't thrown a ball for months and will not throw until basically week 1 -- if he's even ready by then.

 

He will struggle to adjust to the lack of velocity on his throws and will struggle with finding the right touch on his deep ball for the first half of the year.

 

It only makes sense to temper my enthusiasm, knowing that he has been rehabbing from a shoulder injury/surgery this off-season.

[will426]

18 minutes ago, Flash7 said:

I actually do not expect a big year for Andrew this year. He hasn't thrown a ball for months and will not throw until basically week 1 -- if he's even ready by then.

 

He will struggle to adjust to the lack of velocity on his throws and will struggle with finding the right touch on his deep ball for the first half of the year.

 

It only makes sense to temper my enthusiasm, knowing that he has been rehabbing from a shoulder injury/surgery this off-season.

See that's why a quick passing offense would help him out a lot more this year hopefully Ballard has told them to do that because that's exactly what he saw when he was in KC and that's all smith throws lol

[Flash7]

2 minutes ago, will426 said:

See that's why a quick passing offense would help him out a lot more this year hopefully Ballard has told them to do that because that's exactly what he saw when he was in KC and that's all smith throws lol

It seems like EVERYBODY understands this, except the Colts coaching staff -- which is so frustrating. The most important thing is to protect Luck, right?

 

Coaches response: Let's have him take 7-step drops on long developing plays on nearly every snap.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Come on Chud. 

[NannyMcafee]

Man the colts like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I hope this changes this year. 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

4 hours ago, stitches said:

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pff-quarterback-podcast/e/50142371?autoplay=true

Some interesting analysis and stats on Andrew Luck in this episode of the podcast.

 

Highlights:

- 2015 has to be counted as an anomaly

- 2016 was his best season so far

- Big-play throws dropped last year from around top 5 in the league previous years, to 13th in 2016

- With that came lower % of turnover-worthy plays too... he was 7th best QB in the league at taking care of the ball (absolutely destroys the narrative that he's still a 'turnover machine').

- This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

- He was under pressure 44% of the time(!!!!)

- There are no breather-type of plays for Luck. The offense we are running is forcing him to play the toughest game of any QB in the league - striaght drop back passes, full field progressions and reads all the time,

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops. This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

- Average depth of target - 13 yards. They are trying to create chunk plays.

- 3 step drops - 91, 7-step drops 220!!!!! They are not giving him quick game options.

- This is part of the reason for the pressure our O-line allows - it's harder to sustain blocks for the full time it takes for plays to develop in those 7 step drops

- Luck avoids sacks very well, but also creates opportunities for sacks because he milks the plays until the very end, trying to make plays. He's in the top 7 of QBs in avoiding sacks when pressured.

- not a lot of misdirection in our offense - makes it easier for pass-rushers - only 9 total WR and TE screens for the season, only 12 designed rollouts last year, which is a waste because Luck is great making plays on the run

- If Luck continues to play like last year, he will have a year with single-digit interceptions, it's a matter of time because he's taken strides in his ball-security.

- At his current level he's a top 5 QB in the league. He's in for a big-time year.

 

Very interesting!

 

Executive summary; We need a new OC! 

[Boiler_Colt]

Yet everyone says they wish Arians was still here. Not me, Im a fan of the dude, not his offense.

[ColtsBlueFL]

11 hours ago, stitches said:

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pff-quarterback-podcast/e/50142371?autoplay=true

Some interesting analysis and stats on Andrew Luck in this episode of the podcast.

 

Highlights:

- 2015 has to be counted as an anomaly

- 2016 was his best season so far

- Big-play throws dropped last year from around top 5 in the league previous years, to 13th in 2016

- With that came lower % of turnover-worthy plays too... he was 7th best QB in the league at taking care of the ball (absolutely destroys the narrative that he's still a 'turnover machine').

- This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

- He was under pressure 44% of the time(!!!!)

- There are no breather-type of plays for Luck. The offense we are running is forcing him to play the toughest game of any QB in the league - striaght drop back passes, full field progressions and reads all the time,

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops. This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

- Average depth of target - 13 yards. They are trying to create chunk plays.

- 3 step drops - 91, 7-step drops 220!!!!! They are not giving him quick game options.

- This is part of the reason for the pressure our O-line allows - it's harder to sustain blocks for the full time it takes for plays to develop in those 7 step drops

- Luck avoids sacks very well, but also creates opportunities for sacks because he milks the plays until the very end, trying to make plays. He's in the top 7 of QBs in avoiding sacks when pressured.

- not a lot of misdirection in our offense - makes it easier for pass-rushers - only 9 total WR and TE screens for the season, only 12 designed rollouts last year, which is a waste because Luck is great making plays on the run

- If Luck continues to play like last year, he will have a year with single-digit interceptions, it's a matter of time because he's taken strides in his ball-security.

- At his current level he's a top 5 QB in the league. He's in for a big-time year.

 

Interesting, but I have an issue with your 7 step drop facts. 

 

Fact-

"This season, 60 percent of offensive snaps began with the quarterback 5 yards or so behind the line of scrimmage. (Pistol or Shotgun).  During their first 10 plays in the wild-card round, the four winners — Rodgers' Packers , Wilson's Seahawks , Roethlisberger's Steelers and Brock Osweiler's Texans — used the shotgun a combined 67.5 percent. For the season, 78.9 percent of passing plays and 32.5 percent of run plays started in shotgun, according to data provided to the AP by TruMedia Networks, whose chairman is Tony Khan, the son of the Jacksonville Jaguars' owner."

 

Nobody, and I absolutely mean Nobody, does a 7 step drop from Pistol or Shotgun. Here's something from PFF that may be relevant though-

"Another new data point here at PFF, we started tracking the depth of the quarterback’s drop in 2013. Rather than counting number of steps, it’s a little easier to track how deep the quarterback drops and then group them later into general categories that represent 3-step, 5-step, and 7-step drops.

The new data is sorted into four categories and they are pretty reflective of the quick, intermediate, and deep passing game. The 1-3 yard category is essentially wide receiver screens, end zone fades, and other extremely quick throws, while the 4-6 yard range is generally the 3-step game (1 step from shotgun), the 7-8 yard range corresponds to a 5-step drop (3 steps from shotgun), and finally the 9+ yard range is more of a 7-step drop (5 steps from shotgun).

 

Luck very rarely takes seven step drops from under center.  Shotgun allows Luck to not have to turn his back on the coverage (like in P.A. fakes from under center, etc...). He can also ascertain the D scheme and make progressions earlier than from under center.  And I often see him make 3 step drops from shotgun, but is in the 8-9 yard range.  Luck doesn't need 5 steps from shotgun to get 8-9 yards deep.

 

From my view, I see Luck stare down X much too often rather than look to Z or slot... ever since Reggie Wayne was not re-signed.  Too many people tell me Dorsett was running free quite often, but never got many targets. TY gets them. Chud does not send 3 or 4 receivers on Fly routes every time we pass... but I'd like to see Andrew check down quicker and more often though. OTOH-

 

"Luck was far and away the most successful quarterback targeting the double move. He completed 10 of 17 passes for 236 yards, 5 touchdowns and a QB rating of 142.8. Luck led the league in completions, touchdowns, and QB rating on double moves. He targeted six different receivers with double moves, most often using his tight ends Dwayne Allen and Jack Doyle, who accounted for 3 of his 5 touchdown passes. Luck had his most success on this route when attacking zone coverages. He was 6-8 versus zone coverage, for 152 yards and three touchdowns. "

 

"Of course, it wasn’t just this one route that Luck was good at, as he had a great all-around year: he completed 346 of 545 passes (63.5%) for 4,240 yards (7.78 yards per attempt), 31 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions for a passer rating of 96.4. But there was no better route for Luck than the double move route in 2016, which though only attempted 17 times, proved to be immensely successful. "

[life long]

I love the double move routes as well. Sadly those are the long developing route variety that Luck tries to hit too often. Still could you really blame the guy? Look at our defensive stats the last few years. Its called reality. He knows wins are very reliant on himself with a defense giving up points in a flash. This team is far more balanced now and we will have a great season despite pundit predictions.... GO COLTS!

[Smonroe]

20 hours ago, will426 said:

See that's why a quick passing offense would help him out a lot more this year hopefully Ballard has told them to do that because that's exactly what he saw when he was in KC and that's all smith throws lol

 

I'd like to know the PFF definitions for "under pressure" and "pass block efficiencies".  No one is going to say our O-line was great, but they weren't that bad, especially by the end of the season.

 

I'd love to see a stat that defines pressure and sacks by time.  In other words, if a QB is sacked after 3.5 seconds, it shouldn't really be a ding on the Oline.  It's either a coverage sack, the QB is trying to extend the play, or he's just not good at his progressions.

 

The question with the quick passing game is besides TY, can our receivers separate in time?

[21isSuperman]

91 3-step drops compared to 220 7-step drops.  That's absurd.

[Colts_Fan12]

Just many more reasons on why we need a new staff this no short passing game is ridiculous and it don't help luck at all. 220 7 step drops Really? Are you * kidding me!!!

[Coltfreak]

On 5/13/2017 at 0:43 PM, stitches said:

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pff-quarterback-podcast/e/50142371?autoplay=true

Some interesting analysis and stats on Andrew Luck in this episode of the podcast.

 

Highlights:

- 2015 has to be counted as an anomaly

- 2016 was his best season so far

- Big-play throws dropped last year from around top 5 in the league previous years, to 13th in 2016

- With that came lower % of turnover-worthy plays too... he was 7th best QB in the league at taking care of the ball (absolutely destroys the narrative that he's still a 'turnover machine').

- This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

- He was under pressure 44% of the time(!!!!)

- There are no breather-type of plays for Luck. The offense we are running is forcing him to play the toughest game of any QB in the league - striaght drop back passes, full field progressions and reads all the time,

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops. This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

- Average depth of target - 13 yards. They are trying to create chunk plays.

- 3 step drops - 91, 7-step drops 220!!!!! They are not giving him quick game options.

- This is part of the reason for the pressure our O-line allows - it's harder to sustain blocks for the full time it takes for plays to develop in those 7 step drops

- Luck avoids sacks very well, but also creates opportunities for sacks because he milks the plays until the very end, trying to make plays. He's in the top 7 of QBs in avoiding sacks when pressured.

- not a lot of misdirection in our offense - makes it easier for pass-rushers - only 9 total WR and TE screens for the season, only 12 designed rollouts last year, which is a waste because Luck is great making plays on the run

- If Luck continues to play like last year, he will have a year with single-digit interceptions, it's a matter of time because he's taken strides in his ball-security.

- At his current level he's a top 5 QB in the league. He's in for a big-time year.

I've been saying this ever since Chud was given the OC job.    I'm sure CrazyColt will find fault with what I just said though 

[NewColtsFan]

 

I"d like to single out one particular point made in the original post.    None of this info rings true to me....    I'm cutting and pasting....

 

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops.  This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

 

I don't doubt that we ran 220 pass plays that are 7-step drops.    Don't doubt that at all.    But the idea that most offenses run 20-30 of those per season to me doesn't seem the least bit logical.    That's 1.5-2.0 per game.   That's it.        I don't think there's a single offense in the entire NFL that's only running 20-30 plays that are 7 step drops per season.    Not one.    Nothing about that seems logical to me.     There has to be something more to this than meets the eye.     It's simply not credible to me.

 

To be clear,  I'm not blaming the original poster.    I just think either the number is wrong,  or something got messed up in the transcribing....     That number can't be off by a little...     it's got to be off by a lot...

 

If I get a chance to listen to the podcast I will,  but I haven't had the chance yet....

 

 

[Valpo2004]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I"d like to single out one particular point made in the original post.    None of this info rings true to me....    I'm cutting and pasting....

 

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops.  This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

 

I don't doubt that we ran 220 pass plays that are 7-step drops.    Don't doubt that at all.    But the idea that most offenses run 20-30 of those per season to me doesn't seem the least bit logical.    That's 1.5-2.0 per game.   That's it.        I don't think there's a single offense in the entire NFL that's only running 20-30 plays that are 7 step drops per season.    Not one.    Nothing about that seems logical to me.     There has to be something more to this than meets the eye.     It's simply not credible to me.

 

To be clear,  I'm not blaming the original poster.    I just think either the number is wrong,  or something got messed up in the transcribing....     That number can't be off by a little...     it's got to be off by a lot...

 

If I get a chance to listen to the podcast I will,  but I haven't had the chance yet....

 

 

 

I question this as well.  Also what are we counting as 7 step drops?  We and a lot of NFL teams use a lot of shotgun and pistol.  Are those being counted?  How many steps is it counted when Luck snaps the ball in shotgun.  

[stitches]

12 minutes ago, Valpo2004 said:

 

I question this as well.  Also what are we counting as 7 step drops?  We and a lot of NFL teams use a lot of shotgun and pistol.  Are those being counted?  How many steps is it counted when Luck snaps the ball in shotgun.  

I don't know how they count it. That's the numbers they stated in the podcast.

[Superman]

On 5/13/2017 at 1:41 PM, NannyMcafee said:

Man the colts like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. I hope this changes this year. 

 

Luck is as good as anyone at running this offense. That's the problem. It's an old school offense without the OL to make it workable. Luck is absolutely not the problem, as those stats indicate. (Not that you were suggesting he is, just saying, he's not the square peg.)

[Superman]

On 5/13/2017 at 9:16 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

"Of course, it wasn’t just this one route that Luck was good at, as he had a great all-around year: he completed 346 of 545 passes (63.5%) for 4,240 yards (7.78 yards per attempt), 31 touchdowns, and 13 interceptions for a passer rating of 96.4. But there was no better route for Luck than the double move route in 2016, which though only attempted 17 times, proved to be immensely successful. "

 

And of course, those are longer to develop, with a shoddy OL.

 

Good stuff in your post, by the way.

[Superman]

On 5/14/2017 at 7:16 AM, Smonroe said:

 

I'd like to know the PFF definitions for "under pressure" and "pass block efficiencies".  No one is going to say our O-line was great, but they weren't that bad, especially by the end of the season.

 

I'd love to see a stat that defines pressure and sacks by time.  In other words, if a QB is sacked after 3.5 seconds, it shouldn't really be a ding on the Oline.  It's either a coverage sack, the QB is trying to extend the play, or he's just not good at his progressions.

 

The question with the quick passing game is besides TY, can our receivers separate in time?

 

Pressures are subjective. I don't think you can really nail this down from one person to the next, but it's very obvious that Luck is under pressure frequently.

 

The real question with the quick passing game is why we don't run quick passing routes. Only 9 WR/TE screens in an entire season. And when we run them, we run them poorly (maybe that's because we don't run them often enough; or maybe we don't run them more often because we suck at them, either way, this is a staple NFL play, and we don't use it, so it's a coaching issue). 

[Superman]

On 5/13/2017 at 9:43 AM, stitches said:

http://www.stitcher.com/podcast/pff-quarterback-podcast/e/50142371?autoplay=true

Some interesting analysis and stats on Andrew Luck in this episode of the podcast.

 

Highlights:

- 2015 has to be counted as an anomaly

- 2016 was his best season so far

- Big-play throws dropped last year from around top 5 in the league previous years, to 13th in 2016

- With that came lower % of turnover-worthy plays too... he was 7th best QB in the league at taking care of the ball (absolutely destroys the narrative that he's still a 'turnover machine').

- This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

- He was under pressure 44% of the time(!!!!)

- There are no breather-type of plays for Luck. The offense we are running is forcing him to play the toughest game of any QB in the league - striaght drop back passes, full field progressions and reads all the time,

- A ton of 7 step drops. 39% of his drop backs(220) are 7-step drops. This is unheard of in the league. Most offenses run 20-30 of those per season. We are running 10 times that.

- Average depth of target - 13 yards. They are trying to create chunk plays.

- 3 step drops - 91, 7-step drops 220!!!!! They are not giving him quick game options.

- This is part of the reason for the pressure our O-line allows - it's harder to sustain blocks for the full time it takes for plays to develop in those 7 step drops

- Luck avoids sacks very well, but also creates opportunities for sacks because he milks the plays until the very end, trying to make plays. He's in the top 7 of QBs in avoiding sacks when pressured.

- not a lot of misdirection in our offense - makes it easier for pass-rushers - only 9 total WR and TE screens for the season, only 12 designed rollouts last year, which is a waste because Luck is great making plays on the run

- If Luck continues to play like last year, he will have a year with single-digit interceptions, it's a matter of time because he's taken strides in his ball-security.

- At his current level he's a top 5 QB in the league. He's in for a big-time year.

 

Good stuff. When I say this offense is flawed and doesn't put our players in optimal position to succeed, remember these bullet points. We can nitpick here and there with some of the numbers (most teams only running 20-30 7 step drops seems exaggerated), but it's obvious that the Colts passing game has a higher degree of difficulty than pretty much any other offense, and it's only exacerbated by the perennially underperforming OL. This is why I defend Dorsett, though he obviously has a lot to prove. 

 

Until we cut the edges and run quick slants and screens, until we shorten up the concepts and create quick openings for hot receivers, this offense will continue to underperform, Luck will continue to be under pressure every other dropback, and the offense will continue to have slow starts every other game. 

 

And this is on Pagano. He prefers this offense, clearly.

[NewColtsFan]

21 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

I've been saying this ever since Chud was given the OC job.    I'm sure CrazyColt will find fault with what I just said though 

 

 

No,  I don't think you have.    Why?     Because there was nothing wrong with Chud's offense in 2015.   That's the year Luck got hurt and missed 9 games.       And Chud's offense looked great in the one game where he had Luck,  the upset win over Denver.

 

And then it looked great when we were winning with Matt Hasselbeck and then Charlie Whitehurst and Freeman and Lindley as the QB's.      There was nothing to complain about in 2015.

 

If you had a complaint,  it was last year in 2016.

 

[Coltfreak]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

No,  I don't think you have.    Why?     Because there was nothing wrong with Chud's offense in 2015.   That's the year Luck got hurt and missed 9 games.       And Chud's offense looked great in the one game where he had Luck,  the upset win over Denver.

 

And then it looked great when we were winning with Matt Hasselbeck and then Charlie Whitehurst and Freeman and Lindley as the QB's.      There was nothing to complain about in 2015.

 

If you had a complaint,  it was last year in 2016.

 

Arrogant much?   How do you know what I think?  You do remember that Chud was running Peps offense that yr correct?

 

BTW the game plan when Luck was out changed dramatically. 

 

Since then hen he has installed his offense it has been round hole square peg trying to run a deep passing attach with the % Oline that was on the team

 

I have never been a fan of Chud.   I'll be glad when he's gone 

[Coltfreak]

3 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Good stuff. When I say this offense is flawed and doesn't put our players in optimal position to succeed, remember these bullet points. We can nitpick here and there with some of the numbers (most teams only running 20-30 7 step drops seems exaggerated), but it's obvious that the Colts passing game has a higher degree of difficulty than pretty much any other offense, and it's only exacerbated by the perennially underperforming OL. This is why I defend Dorsett, though he obviously has a lot to prove. 

 

Until we cut the edges and run quick slants and screens, until we shorten up the concepts and create quick openings for hot receivers, this offense will continue to underperform, Luck will continue to be under pressure every other dropback, and the offense will continue to have slow starts every other game. 

 

And this is on Pagano. He prefers this offense, clearly.

Uh oh.  Now your gonna get attached.   You said the same thing I have been saying. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

4 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Luck is as good as anyone at running this offense. That's the problem. It's an old school offense without the OL to make it workable. Luck is absolutely not the problem, as those stats indicate. (Not that you were suggesting he is, just saying, he's not the square peg.)

 

Indeed.  But he was doing it before Chud was even a consideration. This is from after Lucks 2014 season...

 

"According to popular advanced statistics website ProFootballFocus (subscription), Indianapolis Colts quarterback Andrew Luck led the league last season in deep passing yards. Of Luck’s accumulated 4,761 passing yards last year, 1,387 of those were on deep passing yards:"

 

Andrew Luck’s 1,387 yards on deep passes were the most in the league in 2014.

" It’s a bit ironic considering that once upon a time under the early Pep Hamilton regime of Colts football, the team was originally looking to implement a power-running offense with a bit of west coast passing flare. The team was looking to move away from Bruce Arians downfield passing attack in Luck’s rookie season and feature a more run heavy attack going forward. "

 

" However, Hamilton and the Colts brass soon realized what logically made the most sense last season, that the football should be rightfully placed in the team’s best player’s hands, and that’s easily #12. By placing the football in Luck’s hands, it gives the Colts the best opportunity to make plays, especially down the field."

 

It's hard for anyone to make Luck game manager, Alex Smith 2.0.  Maybe some of these quick hitters and WR screens come when the WR corps ages and develops together, and has many reps under their belts.

 

 

 

[ColtsBlueFL]

50 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

Arrogant much?   How do you know what I think?  You do remember that Chud was running Peps offense that yr correct?

 

And Peps 2014 offense?  " Andrew Luck’s 1,387 yards on deep passes were the most in the league in 2014. "

 

50 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

BTW the game plan when Luck was out changed dramatically. 

 

Since then hen he has installed his offense it has been round hole square peg trying to run a deep passing attach with the % Oline that was on the team

 

To me, Pep's 'Power Run' game was a square peg being stuffed by a round hole...

 

50 minutes ago, Coltfreak said:

I have never been a fan of Chud.   I'll be glad when he's gone 

 

 

When do you suppose that is planned?

 

[Coltfreak]

19 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

And Peps 2014 offense?  " Andrew Luck’s 1,387 yards on deep passes were the most in the league in 2014. "

 

 

To me, Pep's 'Power Run' game was a square peg being stuffed by a round hole...

 

 

 

When do you suppose that is planned?

 

After this season once Pags %s the bed again.   There will be a house cleaning 

[Coltfreak]

20 minutes ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

And Peps 2014 offense?  " Andrew Luck’s 1,387 yards on deep passes were the most in the league in 2014. "

 

 

To me, Pep's 'Power Run' game was a square peg being stuffed by a round hole...

 

 

 

When do you suppose that is planned?

 

Pep was brought here because the offense he ran was the one Luck was comfortable with.   His best season came from running that offense behind the %ties Oline of his career. They also gave him  Fleener to help make him comfortable.  BTW. if Harbaugh ever did come here you might as well get use to that offense again.   Because that's where it comes from.   

 

 All of this isn't hard to figure out.     

[Superman]

1 hour ago, ColtsBlueFL said:

" However, Hamilton and the Colts brass soon realized what logically made the most sense last season, that the football should be rightfully placed in the team’s best player’s hands, and that’s easily #12. By placing the football in Luck’s hands, it gives the Colts the best opportunity to make plays, especially down the field."

 

It's hard for anyone to make Luck game manager, Alex Smith 2.0.  Maybe some of these quick hitters and WR screens come when the WR corps ages and develops together, and has many reps under their belts.

 

There's a great chasm between what Luck does and what Smith does. Smith's degree of difficulty is a 3/10, Luck's is 10/10. I don't want them to eliminate everything downfield, Luck is great at it, and so is Hilton (I really don't understand how so many defenses go to sleep on him). Big plays are great for an offense.

 

But there needs to be greater balance, especially when there are opportunities to for plays to be made when the defense is playing back. If they're giving up cushion, make them pay for it. Keep the chains moving. Stay out of third and long. Take the easy stuff, there will be opportunities for the deep shots.

 

I don't understand why we need so many reps to run quick hitters and screens effectively. These are plays with a lower degree of difficulty. Luck and Hilton are going into Year 6 together, they have enough chemistry to run checks pre-snap. I just don't think any of this is being coached and called. We're consistently awful at running screens, and it pre-dates Chud and most of the assistants, but come on, it's a staple of most passing attacks anymore. 

 

You know I've been saying this since 2012. 

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

Arrogant much?   How do you know what I think?  You do remember that Chud was running Peps offense that yr correct?

 

BTW the game plan when Luck was out changed dramatically. 

 

Since then hen he has installed his offense it has been round hole square peg trying to run a deep passing attach with the % Oline that was on the team

 

I have never been a fan of Chud.   I'll be glad when he's gone 

 

 

My arrogance notwithstanding,  it would help your case if you didn't then turn right around and make my argument for me.      Which you did.

 

1.     It WAS Pep's playbook and not Pep's we were using in 2015,  so your issue should have been mostly with Pep and not with Chud.

 

2.    The Denver game was cited by Irsay as one of the main reasons why they promoted Chud to being the OC, everyone loved it.

 

3.    Yes,  the game plans changed after Luck was hurt because Hasselbeck at 40 and getting more and more banged up the more he played,  was just not capable of running the same offense.   And so Chud changed it up just for Haselbeck and we were winning with it.      What's the problem with that?     This is a good thing,  and not a bad thing.

 

4.    The offense changed in 2016 with Chud's playbook and you said you didn't like it.     Which is exactly what I said.

 

5.    You ended with admitting you have never been a Chud fan, so clearly your view has been impacted by that feeling.

 

Forget my arrogance,   this is what you said and it makes MY case,  not YOURS.

 

Chud wasn't the problem in 2015.       If you really didn't like him,  you can point to 2016.      In 2015 he was practically a miracle worker.

[Coltfreak]

8 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

My arrogance notwithstanding,  it would help your case if you didn't then turn right around and make my argument for me.      Which you did.

 

1.     It WAS Pep's playbook and not Pep's we were using in 2015,  so your issue should have been mostly with Pep and not with Chud.

 

2.    The Denver game was cited by Irsay as one of the main reasons why they promoted Chud to being the OC, everyone loved it.

 

3.    Yes,  the game plans changed after Luck was hurt because Hasselbeck at 40 and getting more and more banged up the more he played,  was just not capable of running the same offense.   And so Chud changed it up just for Haselbeck and we were winning with it.      What's the problem with that?     This is a good thing,  and not a bad thing.

 

4.    The offense changed in 2016 with Chud's playbook and you said you didn't like it.     Which is exactly what I said.

 

5.    You ended with admitting you have never been a Chud fan, so clearly your view has been impacted by that feeling.

 

Forget my arrogance,   this is what you said and it makes MY case,  not YOURS.

 

Chud wasn't the problem in 2015.       If you really didn't like him,  you can point to 2016.      In 2015 he was practically a miracle worker.

Not sure how I made to argument.   Chud was calling plays from Peps playbook not his.   That offense was used to call Peps offense.  Once Chud took over in 2016  he completely changed it to the Air Coryell offense.  Which IMO is as outdated as is Dungys cover 2 as a base D 

 

Again as Superman has touched on many times.  This is a Pagano choice of offense.   If Chud were better he would have seen how well the play calls worked for MH and call games similar to that for Luck.  

 

Think about it.   Can you imagine this offense and this QB running a similar style  offense as the Pats?   

 

This is Oline is not good enough to run those 7 step drops as much as we do. 

 

Yea.  I don't like Chud because like his HC he can't seem to adjust to the players he has and the situation he is in 

 

 

[Superman]

18 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

1.     It WAS Pep's playbook and not Pep's we were using in 2015,  so your issue should have been mostly with Pep and not with Chud.

 

Just hopping in here, Pep and Chud did basically the same things when they had to call plays without Luck. Pep shortened up the concepts early in the season when Luck was out for two games, and Chud followed that pattern when Luck was out after the Denver game. It was just common sense.

 

What's so frustrating is that, when Luck came back, Pep went right back to the low efficiency offense that he was running in the first two games. Then Chud installed his stuff in 2016, which was different than Pep's -- mostly in identity and rhythm -- but had similar results. If efficiency and modernization is important for your backups, why not let your Pro Bowl starter benefit from it as well?

 

It's like they keep thinking 'Luck can do this, let's put it on his shoulders and let him carry the offense,' rather than saying 'how can we make life easier on the offense and on the QB, while still taking advantage of his playmaking ability?' 

 

I had hopes for Chud, based on the 2015 Denver game, the one and only game he called for Luck that year. The offense still was missing some of the elements I think it needs, but immediately Chud went with play action, got Luck on the move, etc. I hoped that he would continue building on that in 2016. He definitely did a better job than Pep, but I still think he's missing the simple stuff that would make this offense deadly.

[NewColtsFan]

On 5/16/2017 at 6:35 AM, Coltfreak said:

Not sure how I made to argument.   Chud was calling plays from Peps playbook not his.   That offense was used to call Peps offense.  Once Chud took over in 2016  he completely changed it to the Air Coryell offense.  Which IMO is as outdated as is Dungys cover 2 as a base D 

 

Again as Superman has touched on many times.  This is a Pagano choice of offense.   If Chud were better he would have seen how well the play calls worked for MH and call games similar to that for Luck.  

 

Think about it.   Can you imagine this offense and this QB running a similar style  offense as the Pats?   

 

This is Oline is not good enough to run those 7 step drops as much as we do. 

 

Yea.  I don't like Chud because like his HC he can't seem to adjust to the players he has and the situation he is in 

 

 

 

Sorry for the delay in response.....    life got in the way....

 

Well...   when this discussion between you and me started,  I said you likely didn't object to Chud in 2015 because he did a great job using Pep's playbook.      That he won with MH and 3 other QB's.     That was a tremendous achievement.      That's why you called me arrogant.

 

Now you seem to recognize that and you're not talking about 2015 any more,  but instead talking about 2016.   OK.     

 

But at the bottom of your post,  your last sentence says he can seem to adjust to the players that he has or the situation that he's in.     Except that all he did in 2015.     He adjusted with Pep's playbook.     He adjusted with Hasselbeck.      He adjusted with Whitehurst,  Lindley and Freeman.      Heck, he used Lindley and Freeman in different situations in the same game.      You can't get more adjustments than that.

 

I assme Chud believes in his playbook.    I assume some of his troubles came from a poor OL.    I'd like to see what he does this year with a much better O-line and with Ballard hopefully having some influence.     I'm agreeing with you that I'd like to see more short stuff,   more getting the ball out of Luck's hands quicker.    KC ran a lot of that with Smith.     I'm hoping to see more of that with Luck.  

 

I'm not looking to abandon Chud's offense,  just add to with more shorting passing concepts.

 

Hopefully we've found some common ground here.    Sorry to have upset you.....    

 

[Lawrence Owen]

As everyone knows, this is a passing league.  This is why pass rushers are premium now more than ever.  (pass rushers with a speed focus)  This tightens the time table to when a QB needs to get rid of the ball.  And as the pod cast states, Most OC's use quicker plays more often for the QB to get rid of the ball faster to compensate for this.  Indy is not in this category.  Does not matter if Luck had Dallas' O-line.  If they had to protect on extended plays 39% of the time, Luck would still be pressured a ton.  If Prescott did this, I would bet he'd have been pressured more and sacked more, than Luck, with his o-line.  

Using more screens just seems so blatantly obvious to me with the type of receivers we have, that I just don't understand why they leave Luck on an extended target platform so often.  I get he is amazing at so many things, But if you use the big deep plays less often, and use screens and short quick slant routes more, would that not make the time you DO go deep more likely to succeed?  Since you've gassed them so much on the shorter plays?  

Just my opinion.

[Restored]

On 5/16/2017 at 7:33 PM, Superman said:

 

Just hopping in here, Pep and Chud did basically the same things when they had to call plays without Luck. Pep shortened up the concepts early in the season when Luck was out for two games, and Chud followed that pattern when Luck was out after the Denver game. It was just common sense.

 

What's so frustrating is that, when Luck came back, Pep went right back to the low efficiency offense that he was running in the first two games. Then Chud installed his stuff in 2016, which was different than Pep's -- mostly in identity and rhythm -- but had similar results. If efficiency and modernization is important for your backups, why not let your Pro Bowl starter benefit from it as well?

 

It's like they keep thinking 'Luck can do this, let's put it on his shoulders and let him carry the offense,' rather than saying 'how can we make life easier on the offense and on the QB, while still taking advantage of his playmaking ability?' 

 

I had hopes for Chud, based on the 2015 Denver game, the one and only game he called for Luck that year. The offense still was missing some of the elements I think it needs, but immediately Chud went with play action, got Luck on the move, etc. I hoped that he would continue building on that in 2016. He definitely did a better job than Pep, but I still think he's missing the simple stuff that would make this offense deadly.

 

I've always thought this was true from the very beginning since Arians. They knew that Luck could handle a workload, both mentally and physically, that most QB's in the league simply couldn't. So subsequently, they threw everything on him to make the offense go. 

 

The Denver game in 15' definitely showed what this offense could do if the right types of plays are called as well.

 

More rollouts, more play-action and shorter throws are needed for sure.

[Coltfreak]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

Sorry for the delay in response.....    life got in the way....

 

Well...   when this discussion between you and me started,  I said you likely didn't object to Chud in 2015 because he did a great job using Pep's playbook.      That he won with MH and 3 other QB's.     That was a tremendous achievement.      That's why you called me arrogant.

 

Now you seem to recognize that and you're not talking about 2015 any more,  but instead talking about 2016.   OK.     

 

But at the bottom of your post,  your last sentence says he can seem to adjust to the players that he has or the situation that he's in.     Except that all he did in 2015.     He adjusted with Pep's playbook.     He adjusted with Hasselbeck.      He adjusted with Whitehurst,  Lindley and Freeman.      Heck, he used Lindley and Freeman in different situations in the same game.      You can't get more adjustments than that.

 

I assme Chud believes in his playbook.    I assume some of his troubles came from a poor OL.    I'd like to see what he does this year with a much better O-line and with Ballard hopefully having some influence.     I'm agreeing with you that I'd like to see more short stuff,   more getting the ball out of Luck's hands quicker.    KC ran a lot of that with Smith.     I'm hoping to see more of that with Luck.  

 

I'm not looking to abandon Chud's offense,  just add to with more shorting passing concepts.

 

Hopefully we've found some common ground here.    Sorry to have upset you.....    

 

You didn't upset me at all. I think we agree on most of what you wrote. I think if he were calling the plays with Luck  he did for  MH Luck wouldn't get beat to death and the offense would be much better.  

 

Of of course I do understand that Luck changes a lot of plays so it's his fault as much as  Chuds. IMO 

[southwest1]

On May 13, 2017 at 11:43 AM, stitches said:

This didn't show in the interception number because a lot of his interceptions last year were unlucky interceptions.

Unlucky picks? 

 

No such thing stitches. Like they said in the podcast, know when to the throw the ball away & live to fight another down. 

[ColtsBlueFL]

11 hours ago, Coltfreak said:

You didn't upset me at all. I think we agree on most of what you wrote. I think if he were calling the plays with Luck  he did for  MH Luck wouldn't get beat to death and the offense would be much better. 

 

If only the players felt as Superman, NCF, you, and so many others here on that premise-

 

And yet, with Luck not playing the latter half of 2015 and MH without the arm to 'run the playbook', TY Hilton and the WR gang were miffed at the lack of a 'deep passing game'.

 

"Per Stephen Holder of the Indianapolis Star, Hilton elaborated that the short-game attack has prevented the Colts from building yards after the catch, a major struggle for the team this year. 

The Colts offense has been forced to adjust with Matt Hasselbeck under center for the injured Andrew Luck, and the 40-year-old backup simply doesn’t possess the arm strength or vertical accuracy compared to Luck, who’s considered among the league’s best.

Hilton added that the passing struggles have had a direct effect on the running game, per Holder.

“Once we start taking shots, it will loosen up the run game and the passing game,” Hilton said. “Instead of it being five, six, seven (defenders) in the box, it’s all 11. They’re just waiting.”

 

Defenses adjust to anything, D coordinators scout you and devise a defense to stop you.O coordinators design plays to move the ball and eventually score.  Sometimes you have to out execute your opponent, no matter what scheme you run...