Cornerback vs Pass rusher in 2nd round

[chad72]

First, the premise of this thread is to purely talk between the CB position and the pass rushing OLB position for round 2.

 

We are in search of a talented #2 CB that can play outside. We didn't add much in FA either except re-signing Butler and letting Mike Adams go. As the draft goes further into rounds 3 and later, the outside CB talent compared to slot CB talent goes down. Besides, you will have project CBs that you have to coach up. Not saying there won't be a Richard Sherman in later rounds but I am playing the odds here.

 

So, if you have both a pass rusher and #1/#2 outside CB talent that are equally evaluated in value staring at you, you can make an argument for leaning CB at that point. However, given Pagano's pedigree of coaching defensive backs, would you lean towards pass rusher over CB because of that reason? Do keep in mind that a quality pass rusher can make a less than stellar CB look better as well.

 

Or do we take the BPA on one of those positions and move up giving up a 3rd and 4th for the other position if we feel strongly about a player in the other position at the end of the 2nd?

 

Thoughts???

[Smonroe]

Tough choice if they're equally valued.   I think CB is a bigger need.  So I'd go there.  

 

But im happy with BPA, no matter what position.  

[stitches]

I'd probably pick a pass-rusher. The CB class is deeper IMO. So if we have similarly ranked CB and EDGE, I'd pick the EDGE and be sure to get a good CB in the 3d or 4th.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

After free agency, I'm not as worried about pass rush as I was going into the offseason, so I'd definitely lean towards CB in round 2, because we still don't have anyone to line up across from Davis. But, if Tim Williams is sitting there, kind of hard to imagine a scenario where we pass on him a second time.

[Myles]

CB.   

[jskinnz]

I think everything that Ballard has told us about his BPA preference has held form and I would not expect that to be any different tonight.  

 

If they had to line up and play tomorrow, I think they are in better shape with pass rushers than corners so to me corner is the bigger need.  But that is the difference between 1 and 1A.

 

But to the BPA point, I would not be surprised by any pick.  I just saw a CBS Day 2 mock and they had Curtis Samuel coming to Indy, which seems completely reasonable to me.

[chad72]

4 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

After free agency, I'm not as worried about pass rush as I was going into the offseason, so I'd definitely lean towards CB in round 2, because we still don't have anyone to line up across from Davis. But, if Tim Williams is sitting there, kind of hard to imagine a scenario where we pass on him a second time.

 

That is why I feel like we may go CB, and see which pass rusher drops to the end of round 2 and move up giving up a 3rd and 4th so that we get 2 quality second rounders if someone we rate highly keeps dropping. I would have to think that at this point, the pass rush category is going to be more pass rush specialists than a Von Miller type game changer. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

That is why I feel like we may go CB, and see which pass rusher drops to the end of round 2 and move up giving up a 3rd and 4th so that we get 2 quality second rounders if someone we rate highly keeps dropping. I would have to think that at this point, the pass rush category is going to be more pass rush specialists than a Von Miller type game changer. 

 

Yeah, who's left as far as EDGE goes? Williams, Smoot, Lawson... anyone else that I'm missing?

[Barry Sears]

Obviously, it depends on who is there when we pick.  If there's been a run on the CB position, then we may be forced to take a CB and focus on pass rush on our next pick, or vice versa.  If we go CB, the our secondary gets much better with the pick of Hooker in round 1.  We will need a strong secondary with the weapons our division opponents added last night and have added in recent drafts.

[masnerj]

#InBallardWeTrust. 

 

Thats all, folks. I personally (along with most people on this forum) want a CB and Pass-rusher drafted by the end of tonight. But I have complete faith in what Ballard is doing and I am excited to see what he does tonight. With all the talent that has escaped the first, don't rule out a move up to the top of the 2nd round in exchange for our 2nd and one of our 4th round picks. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised with a RB (Mixon or Cook), OL (if for some reason Lamp falls or we trade up to get him), or DL (McDowell). All I know is that I am hyped for tonight and am ok with whatever he does. 

[tweezy32]

We get pass rusher, and Jordan lewis in 3rd

[Surge89]

39 minutes ago, chad72 said:

First, the premise of this thread is to purely talk between the CB position and the pass rushing OLB position for round 2.

 

We are in search of a talented #2 CB that can play outside. We didn't add much in FA either except re-signing Butler and letting Mike Adams go. As the draft goes further into rounds 3 and later, the outside CB talent compared to slot CB talent goes down. Besides, you will have project CBs that you have to coach up. Not saying there won't be a Richard Sherman in later rounds but I am playing the odds here.

 

So, if you have both a pass rusher and #1/#2 outside CB talent that are equally evaluated in value staring at you, you can make an argument for leaning CB at that point. However, given Pagano's pedigree of coaching defensive backs, would you lean towards pass rusher over CB because of that reason? Do keep in mind that a quality pass rusher can make a less than stellar CB look better as well.

 

Or do we take the BPA on one of those positions and move up giving up a 3rd and 4th for the other position if we feel strongly about a player in the other position at the end of the 2nd?

 

Thoughts???

 

 

I'd say Corner.  You've drafted your center fielder and you used the offseason to pick up edge containment and improvement up the middle.  If you follow that game plan pass rush is less of a priority than getting turnovers.  At least that is how I'm viewing it. 

 

It's solely of my opinion but I think Ballard knew he wasn't fixing our pass rush woes this year and  created a way in which he can mitigate the lack of pass rush by controlling the edges and forcing throws to a dangerous secondary. 

[Smonroe]

22 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

I think everything that Ballard has told us about his BPA preference has held form and I would not expect that to be any different tonight.  

 

If they had to line up and play tomorrow, I think they are in better shape with pass rushers than corners so to me corner is the bigger need.  But that is the difference between 1 and 1A.

 

But to the BPA point, I would not be surprised by any pick.  I just saw a CBS Day 2 mock and they had Curtis Samuel coming to Indy, which seems completely reasonable to me.

 

Buckeye Hater!

 

I saw that too and thought the same thing.  But if anyone wanted McCaffrey at 1, taking Samuel wouldn't seem bad.  He's just as versatile and faster.  I could live with the pick.  

[NewColtsFan]

Because of the urgency at the position,   I would prefer CB over OLB.

 

Hope to find an OLB in R3.....      someone that can be groomed for the future...

 

 

 

[Legend of Luck]

I think CB is so insanely deep, we can get starters in the 4th. 

 

I think OLB is a must for round 2.

[csmopar]

CB the next 2 rounds.  

[Stoney]

Get Kevin King if possible. Hooker/Green & King would be starting something special for us. I badly want Mixon tho. I think getting King would cancel him out. 

[krunk]

It wouldn't shock me to see a trade back. Various good players you can pick up between the 2nd and the 4th round.

[ColtsArmy84]

I say Kamara in he 2nd and Jourdan lewis in the 3rd and then go grab 2 EDGE guys in Round 4

[Surge89]

6 minutes ago, krunk said:

It wouldn't shock me to see a trade back.

 

Likewise it wouldn't shock me to see a trade up

 

The run on corners will probably start right before or after us.  If we don't take a corner we could very well move back into the second to take one during the run. 

[chad72]

34 minutes ago, Legend of Luck said:

I think CB is so insanely deep, we can get starters in the 4th. 

 

I think OLB is a must for round 2.

 

The issue is the type of starter. Most starters in later rounds for CB (3 and later) happen to be slot CBs or project athletes for the outside with size and/or speed.

 

Jourdan Lewis will be a great slot CB in rounds 3 or later, so will Kazee but the ones that project to the outside are picked higher, and we need one on the outside.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, chad72 said:

First, the premise of this thread is to purely talk between the CB position and the pass rushing OLB position for round 2.

 

We are in search of a talented #2 CB that can play outside. We didn't add much in FA either except re-signing Butler and letting Mike Adams go. As the draft goes further into rounds 3 and later, the outside CB talent compared to slot CB talent goes down. Besides, you will have project CBs that you have to coach up. Not saying there won't be a Richard Sherman in later rounds but I am playing the odds here.

 

So, if you have both a pass rusher and #1/#2 outside CB talent that are equally evaluated in value staring at you, you can make an argument for leaning CB at that point. However, given Pagano's pedigree of coaching defensive backs, would you lean towards pass rusher over CB because of that reason? Do keep in mind that a quality pass rusher can make a less than stellar CB look better as well.

 

Or do we take the BPA on one of those positions and move up giving up a 3rd and 4th for the other position if we feel strongly about a player in the other position at the end of the 2nd?

 

Thoughts???

First, what DB on this team has Pagano turned into an all-pro from little pedigree.  He's SUPPOSED to do that, but hasn't.

 

Also, Butler was signed to play FS, as stated by management and by Butler, and has always played nickle CB.   Butler's status means little towards the draft strategy.

 

2 starting outside CBs are needed.  1 starting this year, and one to replace VD the next year.   

 

The reality is, CBs who can start IN THIS DEFENSE (not a tampa 2) likely need to have a high round pick devoted to them.  You really can't wait until the 3rd and 4th rounds to find the CBs you need to START in this defense.

 

Since we wasted our first round pick on a FS, we need the next pick to be a CB.  And since we are fresh out of high picks, we will have to wait for our second starting CB to be drafted next year.  Since that pick will have to start IMMEDIATELY as a rookie the following year, we will be boxed into likely needing to find a value CB at our 1st round pick.  I hope one is there so we don't have to reach.   

 

That pretty much leaves pass rusher out of the equation all together, unfortunately.

[chad72]

6 minutes ago, DougDew said:

First, what DB on this team has Pagano turned into an all-pro from little pedigree.  He's SUPPOSED to do that, but hasn't.

 

Also, Butler was signed to play FS, as stated by management and by Butler, and has always played nickle CB.   Butler's status means little towards the draft strategy.

 

2 starting outside CBs are needed.  1 starting this year, and one to replace VD the next year.   

 

The reality is, CBs who can start IN THIS DEFENSE (not a tampa 2) likely need to have a high round pick devoted to them.  You really can't wait until the 3rd and 4th rounds to find the CBs you need to START in this defense.

 

Since we wasted our first round pick on a FS, we need the next pick to be a CB.  And since we are fresh out of high picks, we will have to wait for our second starting CB to be drafted next year.  Since that pick will have to start IMMEDIATELY as a rookie the following year, we will be boxed into likely needing to find a value CB at our 1st round pick.  I hope one is there so we don't have to reach.   

 

That pretty much leaves pass rusher out of the equation all together, unfortunately.

 

Marlon Humphrey then Jordan Willis would have been great, however.

 

I actually agree with the need for the CB in the second but I disagree on wasting our first round pick. When Darius Butler gets banged up with his annual thing and we see that T.J.Green cannot cover, and Mike Adams is long gone, we won't be playing what ifs with the Hooker pick. When teams attack the seams with TEs against us, and we can't prevent completions with our average LB coverage, the only way to make up for it is safety coverage, and that is EXACTLY the plan here.

[COLTS449]

Tim Williams will be BPA when we pick. The CB class is deep. We can get Tankersley, Tabor, or maybe even Moreau in the 3rd.

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, Barry Sears said:

Obviously, it depends on who is there when we pick.  If there's been a run on the CB position, then we may be forced to take a CB and focus on pass rush on our next pick, or vice versa.  If we go CB, the our secondary gets much better with the pick of Hooker in round 1.  We will need a strong secondary with the weapons our division opponents added last night and have added in recent drafts.

There will be.  Also a run on pass rushers too.  We'll be selecting from leftovers, even being only 14 picks in.

[COLTS449]

2 Tim Williams

3 Cordrea Tankersley

[jskinnz]

45 minutes ago, Smonroe said:

 

Buckeye Hater!

 

I saw that too and thought the same thing.  But if anyone wanted McCaffrey at 1, taking Samuel wouldn't seem bad.  He's just as versatile and faster.  I could live with the pick.  

 

I already cancelled my Colts season tix because of all the OSU nonsense now wearing horseshoes on their helmets.  My football weekends will now be spent at at the Big House watching the Maize and Blue.

 

The Colts need play makers and Samuel seems to be one.  Will be interesting to which way they go. 

[DougDew]

21 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

I actually agree with the need for the CB in the second but I disagree on wasting our first round pick. When Darius Butler gets banged up with his annual thing and we see that T.J.Green cannot cover, and Mike Adams is long gone, we won't be playing what ifs with the Hooker pick. When teams attack the seams with TEs against us, and we can't prevent completions with our average LB coverage, the only way to make up for it is safety coverage, and that is EXACTLY the plan here.

Ok.  I'll respect the theme of the thread and keep it to CB OLB.  I'll debate this somewhere else.

 

Edit:  Hooker will look bad as Vontae starts getting dinged and out of the lineup and we only have 2nd and 3rd rookies playing CB.  Especially if he comes upfield to tackle a WR on a slant pass and whiffs.

[jskinnz]

2 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

Tim Williams will be BPA when we pick. The CB class is deep. We can get Tankersley, Tabor, or maybe even Moreau in the 3rd.

 

I've seen enough from you to question your crystal ball.

[COLTS449]

2 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

I've seen enough from you to question your crystal ball.

 

LOL. Well I didn't think Conley would go RD1. Hell I thought he'd be a RD 3-4 guy as of last night at pick 23, but IMO Tim Williams would no doubt be the BPA at 46. He's the freak double digit sack machine we need. Cant deny his talent and ability to get to the QB.

[Legend of Luck]

15 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

The issue is the type of starter. Most starters in later rounds for CB (3 and later) happen to be slot CBs or project athletes for the outside with size and/or speed.

 

Jourdan Lewis will be a great slot CB in rounds 3 or later, so will Kazee but the ones that project to the outside are picked higher, and we need one on the outside.

I'm big on Kazee and like Shaq Griffin in the later rounds.

[chad72]

8 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Ok.  I'll respect the theme of the thread and keep it to CB OLB.  I'll debate this somewhere else.

 

Edit:  Hooker will look bad as Vontae starts getting dinged and out of the lineup and we only have 2nd and 3rd rookies playing CB.  Especially if he comes upfield to tackle a WR on a slant pass and whiffs.

 

You are honed in only on the tackling part, I see. What is the guarantee a 1st round CB won't whiff on a tackle? Even more so, what is the guarantee that a 1st round CB would tackle better than a 2nd or 3rd round CB, going to your point? That makes no sense.

 

You think Revis or Deion Sanders never whiffed on a tackle??

[Buck Showalter]

Ha, I think fans on this forum who expect the picks in rounds 2 & 3 to definitely be a combo of pass-rusher & cornerback may end up being somewhat disappointed. I don't argue that those may be the teams biggest needs, however, I think Ballard simply stays true to his board, however that may fall...

 

[Valpo2004]

1 hour ago, stitches said:

I'd probably pick a pass-rusher. The CB class is deeper IMO. So if we have similarly ranked CB and EDGE, I'd pick the EDGE and be sure to get a good CB in the 3d or 4th.

 

This. . . we could probably get a decent CB2 in the 3rd.  

[Fisher8820]

I would say CB, but I think Ballard sticks to his board and goes BPA whoever it may be. 

[21isSuperman]

Go BPA.  I think the roster has enough holes (despite our many free agents) that we can go with the highest ranked prospect and be happy that he'll contribute.  LB, CB, even DE depth, EDGE, OL, RB, there are plenty of holes to fill.

[chad72]

7 minutes ago, Buck Showalter said:

Ha, I think fans on this forum who expect the picks in rounds 2 & 3 to definitely be a combo of pass-rusher & cornerback may end up being somewhat disappointed. I don't argue that those may be the teams biggest needs, however, I think Ballard simply stays true to his board, however that may fall...

 

 

True, I can definitely see that happening. Depends on if Cook or Mixon still drop. Will a first time GM pull the trigger on Mixon? I am sure a lot of fans will be unhappy if he doesn't  but it would depend on who he picks instead.

[colt18]

You guys are making good arguments ITT.

 

 

On one hand, Ballard did sign a lot of LBs to stop the run at the very least and hope for some sort of pass rush. So I can understand a pass rusher being less of a priority. Our #2 corner was getting burned all season because Patrick Robinson couldn't stay healthy. 

 

On the other hand, we could literally put anyone out there next to Davis if we had a good pass rush. That would make everyone's job easier and I could see that being a bigger factor rather than having a good secondary stay on the field too long because we can't touch the QB.

 

 

In the end, in this scenario I'd take a pass rusher. I like Tim Williams a lot since we passed on Reuben Foster. 

 

 

Oh- and I wanted Reuben Foster in the first. We got Hooker instead, which is fine, but I really want Mixon more than any other player ATM. He would open up this offense like Bell does for the Steelers. I'd be fine with any direction that Ballard goes, but I would personally take Mixon.

[BleedBlu8792]

20 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

 

I already cancelled my Colts season tix because of all the OSU nonsense now wearing horseshoes on their helmets.  My football weekends will now be spent at at the Big House watching the Maize and Blue.

 

The Colts need play makers and Samuel seems to be one.  Will be interesting to which way they go. 

 

Yikes.. As a Buckeye fan, and I think Samuel is a tremendous talent, this forum would implode if they go Samuel in the 2nd. We already have people trying to justify how Hooker was a bad a pick, so I can't imagine how it would be if they took Samuel. 

[jskinnz]

19 minutes ago, COLTS449 said:

 

LOL. Well I didn't think Conley would go RD1. Hell I thought he'd be a RD 3-4 guy as of last night at pick 23, but IMO Tim Williams would no doubt be the BPA at 46. He's the freak double digit sack machine we need. Cant deny his talent and ability to get to the QB.

 

Maybe not but I sure as hell can question what is between his ears.