Pagano - 11th Best Coach in the NFL

[VocableLoki]

3 hours ago, MPStack said:

Represented the NFC in the 2015 SB. Next question?

The Cardinals did not play in the Super Bowl and got blown out in the Championship Game. They also went 7-8-1 last season in the worst division in the league. Arians may be a very good coach, but that doesn't undo warts on his record.

[Jason_]

39 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

At his best I think he's around 12 or 13....    at his worst,  I think he's around 20 or 21....

 

In other words,  not top-10 and not bottom-10.       Here's in the middle depending on the game and opponent.   

 

 

I pretty much agree with that.  I don't think being ranked 11 is that outlandish.  If I'd been asked I'd probably have said between 11-13ish.  I just want to add though that, while some have written him off as having already reached his ceiling, I personally don't think that is the case.  I do think there's still the chance he could continue to learn and grow as a coach and still get better to  possibly become a SB winning coach.  But I agree that he's not at that point yet and it remains to be seen if he can get there. 

[southwest1]

5 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

What coaches have a better winning percentage over the last 5 years?

 

2 hours ago, jvan1973 said:

Ok,   now go compare all 31 other coaches against Chuck.   That may take a very long time

I realize what your driving at Jvan, but all anybody really cares about is how well Pagano will do now in the AFC South & with Tom Coughlin returning to the Jags; that team will improve rather quickly. 

 

Also, has Chuck really learned how to hang with Pittsburgh or NE yet? Nope. Until we do, INDY won't win a SB for awhile yet. Winning percentage means next to nothing if the Steelers & Pats are always playoff thorns in our side. 

 

Now, if you wanna make the argument that a substantial reason for our football short comings was due to Ryan Grigson, I'll cosign that, but not completely. 80/20. Chuck, to be kind, struggles with 1st half to 2nd half adjustments. 

[BOTT]

4 hours ago, cdgacoltsfan said:

And they have done what?

That's funny considering many people said AZ was a crap job and he wouldn't be able to win there.  People always move the bar.

[jvan1973]

13 minutes ago, southwest1 said:

 

I realize what your driving at Jvan, but all anybody really cares about is how well Pagano will do now in the AFC South & with Tom Coughlin returning to the Jags; that team will improve rather quickly. 

 

Also, has Chuck really learned how to hang with Pittsburgh or NE yet? Nope. Until we do, INDY won't win a SB for awhile yet. Winning percentage means next to nothing if the Steelers & Pats are always playoff thorns in our side. 

 

Now, if you wanna make the argument that a substantial reason for our football short comings was due to Ryan Grigson, I'll cosign that, but not completely. 80/20. Chuck, to be kind, struggles with 1st half to 2nd half adjustments. 

Coughlin isn't the jags coach.  No one knows how effective he will be in his new role

[BOTT]

 Chuck is a JAG at best.  I feel everyone knows this, but he's a nice guy so they defend him.

[jvan1973]

3 hours ago, Colts_Fan12 said:

You are right most will not admit that the Colts are held back by certain people like pagano 

That's opinion.    I don't think he is a great coach,   but he is far better than some give him credit for.    

[southwest1]

9 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Coughlin isn't three jags coach.  No one knows how effective he will be in his new role

I'm aware that Tom was not actually named the Jags new HC &, while it's true that Coughlin is more of an advisory capacity or front office gig, I still think he will only be an asset to that organization. 

 

Yeah, perhaps I am letting my BIG Blue Giants bias cloud my judgment. I will own that. I get your point though. Being superb as an HC doesn't always translate in a different department. MJ was a tremendous NBA star who struggled as a GM for awhile. A valid point. I just think Coughlin will thrive though. That's what scares me. 

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

I'm aware that Tom was actually named the Jags new HC &, while it's true that Coughlin is more of an advisory capacity or front office gig, I still think he will only be an asset to that organization. 

 

Yeah, perhaps I am letting my BIG Blue Giants bias cloud my judgment. I will own that. I get your point though. Being superb as an HC doesn't always translate in a different department. MJ was a tremendous NBA star who struggled as a GM for awhile. A valid point. I just think Coughlin will thrive though. That's what scares me. 

The only thing he has done so far is upset the current players by banning ping pong in the locker room

[Imrryr]

5 hours ago, ColtsBlitz said:

Next year, I want the Pagano haters to find me a better, available coach... just to see the results we get. If anyone says Marvin Lewis.... I'm just done.

They wont and cant. Pagano may not be legendary but hes damn sure better than most and hes proven it. Im not happy with 8 and 8 either proverbial inevitable pagano hater but i realize dont get rid of what you have until you know the replacememts better.

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, Imrryr said:

They wont and cant. Pagano may not be legendary but hes damn sure better than most and hes proven it. Im not happy with 8 and 8 either proverbial inevitable pagano hater but i realize dont get rid of what you have until you know the replacememts better.

Oh please

[Imrryr]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Oh please

Look at that incapable of any actual statement. Here i was hoping for intelligent responses so maybe if i was wrong i could learn, instead i got yours if you can even deign it to be a response.

[IinD]

Pagano could go 8-8 for the next 5 years and people will still say he doesn't have a losing record. 

 

True, but doesn't mean he's good.

 

He'll sink or swim this year anyway so we'll have to wait and see. I hope Ballard brings in his own guy after this year.

[cbear]

11-15 is about right.

[BOTT]

4 minutes ago, Imrryr said:

Look at that incapable of any actual statement. Here i was hoping for intelligent responses so maybe if i was wrong i could learn, instead i got yours if you can even deign it to be a response.

You weren't hoping for that at all.  You just claimed something that nobody can prove or disprove.

[Colts_Fan12]

56 minutes ago, J@son said:

from being as bad as you try to make him out to be? Yes, yes I will. 

 

Anyone who's been paying attention to the colts since he and Grigson arrived know that there has been a lot of speculation about how much control Pagano really had and how much influence was asserted by Grigson. 

 

And before you point to last year and say "well they'd worked out those issues and the team still underperformed."  Well, yes they did, but look at the injuries that were sustained.  And yes I know the old saying that "injuries are never an excuse" and that sounds all well and good, but real life simply isn't that black and white.  Two different teams each facing injuries to 10 players does not make the difficulties they will face equal. 

 

I never said he was god awful he's just not good enough and isn't a good enough coach to win us super bowls and that is the MAIN goal.

[Colts_Fan12]

52 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

I wouldn't claim any of them to be better.  I'd possibly put Del Rio at about the same level but he should have (imo) done much better in Jacksonville with some of the rosters he had.  Jackson has had 2 seasons as a HC and neither were anything to write home about.  Pederson has had year so far which exceeded expectations in Philly and their future looks bright as of now, but Pagano had a far better first year.  Let's see how Pederson does for the next couple before crowning him anything.

Give any of those 3 Luck and they do better IMO especially Jackson and Peterson 

[Superman]

4 hours ago, MPStack said:

Represented the NFC in the 2015 SB. Next question?

 

In what version of reality? 

[Colts_Fan12]

58 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

um, because of his coachspeak.  has literally nothing to do with his gameplanning, adjustments or time management.

No I'm talking about all his * boneheaded crap he does 

[Superman]

35 minutes ago, BOTT said:

 Chuck is a JAG at best.  I feel everyone knows this, but he's a nice guy so they defend him.

 

11th out of 32 typifies "JAG."

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

33 minutes ago, BOTT said:

 Chuck is a JAG at best.  I feel everyone knows this, but he's a nice guy so they defend him.

I think he is middle of the pack 15-17ish, we can obviously do better but we could also do worse. I want to see how he Coaches without Grigson being around, this upcoming season will tell me a lot. I think Ballard will be much better for the team so we still came out good there regarding that. Ballard is making a lot of moves getting the Defense much younger and the Hankins signing was one of the better moves in Free Agency period IMO. A lot of Chucks problems has been he hasn't had much to work with on Defense due to Grigson's incompetence not drafting well Defensively or getting quality Free Agents.

[BOTT]

Just now, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I think he is middle of the pack 15-17ish, we can obviously do better but we could also do worse. I want to see how he Coaches without Grigson being around, this upcoming season will tell me a lot. I think Ballard will be much better for the team so we still came out good there regarding that. Ballard is making a lot of moves getting the Defense much younger and the Hankins signing was one of the better moves in Free Agency period IMO. A lot of Chucks problems has been he hasn't had much to work with on Defense due to Grigson's incompetence not drafting well Defensively or getting quality Free Agents.

Sure, the colts could do worse if they hired someone like Barry Switzer.  But I feel like there are probably several candidates that have a much higher ceiling than Chuck and the same floor.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Sure, the colts could do worse if they hired someone like Barry Switzer.  But I feel like there are probably several candidates that have a much higher ceiling than Chuck and the same floor.

Barry  That is a blast from the past. Guy was awesome in college though. I would take Chuck over guys like Marvin Lewis, Mike Mularkey, Jay Gruden, and even the great Jim Caldwell easily for some examples. Some wouldn't believe it or not. Of course Jim Dowhower did beat us here on opening day though.

[ColtsBlitz]

53 minutes ago, BOTT said:

 Chuck is a JAG at best.  I feel everyone knows this, but he's a nice guy so they defend him.

He's a good player coach. That can be pretty powerful. Besides the timeout mistake in the Lions game, what else did he mess up badly in a game? He wasn't exactly provided the best players to represent his defensive coach background. 

[southwest1]

I just wanna know why Sean Payton was ranked so high? Writers ranked him high when he was suspended for a whole yr over the Bounty Gate scandal too. Look, Sean's a solid OC, but his defenses are usually how do I say this politely? Lackluster. 

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, southwest1 said:

I just wanna know why Sean Payton was ranked so high? Writers ranked him high when he was suspended for a whole yr over the Bounty Gate scandal too. Look, Sean's a solid OC, but his defenses are usually how do I say this politely? Lackluster. 

He has won a SB. Once you do that the media gives a Coach tons of slack, not saying it's right but that is how they are. He hasn't won the SB since 2009 and a lot of people still look at him as a Top Coach.

[BOTT]

5 minutes ago, ColtsBlitz said:

He's a good player coach. That can be pretty powerful. Besides the timeout mistake in the Lions game, what else did he mess up badly in a game? He wasn't exactly provided the best players to represent his defensive coach background. 

I have never been a fan of "players coach."  Most of them seem to be soft when it comes to discipline and practice. 

He's taken a few poor timeouts over five yrs.  I didn't write them down, but I don't think anyone would claim he is good with clock management.

 

[southwest1]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

He has won a SB. Once you do that the media gives a Coach tons of slack, not saying it's right but that is how they are. He hasn't won the SB since 2009 and a lot of people still look at him as a Top Coach.

True. I just figured a guy schooled under Bill Parcells would know how to construct a respectable defense consistently. I'm not even demanding greatness here just slightly above average.

 

If he didn't have Drew Brees, he'd be so screwed. To be fair, Saints GM, Mickey Loomis, often seems to be in salary cap hades. Not Payton's fault I know. 

[jvan1973]

49 minutes ago, BOTT said:

You weren't hoping for that at all.  You just claimed something that nobody can prove or disprove.

Same goes for the argument against pagano

[2006Coltsbestever]

5 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I have never been a fan of "players coach."  Most of them seem to be soft when it comes to discipline and practice. 

He's taken a few poor timeouts over five yrs.  I didn't write them down, but I don't think anyone would claim he is good with clock management.

 

Dungy was the same way - a lovable players Coach. Some people cant stand it when I say Dungy was just a Good Coach, possibly Very Good is how I put it. Not Great though. Without Peyton he doesn't win a SB IMO but he was a good enough Coach to get it done once. He was also great for the city of Indy so I am not a Dungy basher but I don't see him anywhere near Bill Belichick type of greatness.

[jvan1973]

11 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I have never been a fan of "players coach."  Most of them seem to be soft when it comes to discipline and practice. 

He's taken a few poor timeouts over five yrs.  I didn't write them down, but I don't think anyone would claim he is good with clock management.

 

Tony Dungy, Pete Carroll, Dick Vermeil.  Lots of others as well have been successful.    The ability to coach is more important than the discipline at the NFL level

[jvan1973]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Dungy was the same way - a lovable players Coach. Some people cant stand it when I say Dungy was just a Good Coach, possibly Very Good is how I put it. Not Great though. Without Peyton he doesn't win a SB IMO but he was a good enough Coach to get it done once. He was also great for the city of Indy so I am not a Dungy basher but I don't see him anywhere near Bill Belichick type of greatness.

Bill walsh was loved by his players

[BOTT]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Same goes for the argument against pagano

I think there is proof he is mediocre.....at best.

 

but to say the "haters" can't name someone who will do better is a bit silly.

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Tony Dungy, Pete Carroll, Dick Vermeil.  Lots of others as well have been successful.    The ability to coach is more important than the discipline at the NFL level

Hence the word "most".  Although I'm not sure I would call Dungy a players coach.  He was a rare bird who demanded respect in his own way.

 

if we named the great coaches I don't think many would classify as a players coach.

[jvan1973]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

Hence the word "most".  Although I'm not sure I would call Dungy a players coach.  He was a rare bird who demanded respect in his own way.

All coaches demand respect in their own way.

[jvan1973]

3 minutes ago, BOTT said:

I think there is proof he is mediocre.....at best.

 

but to say the "haters" can't name someone who will do better is a bit silly.

Name someone who would have been better this off season

[BOTT]

4 minutes ago, jvan1973 said:

Bill walsh was loved by his players

Respected, not sure he was loved by all.  

[southwest1]

10 minutes ago, BOTT said:

 I didn't write them down, but I don't think anyone would claim he is good with clock management.

I can't lie. This line did make me almost spit up my drink on my computer screen. Thank you for that BOTT. 

 

The best humor has bite to it. No, I don't hate Pagano & I know what people will say back to me. Let's see you do any better SW1. I would probably do worse than Chuck actually to be honest, but then again, Chuck knew what the expectations were when he signed the dotted line on his contract/extension too. To quote HOF TE Shannon Sharpe, "I'm in the results business. Not the excuses business." 

 

Good luck Chuck. You're gonna need it. 

[jvan1973]

4 minutes ago, BOTT said:

Respected, not sure he was loved by all.  

Have you ever heard an ex player dog him?  

[BOTT]

Just now, jvan1973 said:

Name someone who would have been better this off season

It doesn't matter as I can't prove it.  But off the top of my head I would have hired josh McDaniels, Kyle shanahan, and Matt Patricia(maybe) in a heartbeat.  I can't guarantee they would be better, but I don't think he would be any worse.

if it was up to me I would have fired Chuck after losing in the afc championship game and hired Harbaugh.