Eric Galko: At least 2 teams view Charles Harris as top-10 talent

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There was also a report by Matt Miller that Ballard loves Charles Harris. I'm one of the people who is very high on Harris and I like him better than most projected mid-late first round EDGE guys. What do you guys think about the possibility of taking Harris at 15?

[ColtsArmy84]

With Simon and Sheard starting at OLB, Charles harris could slide nicely in at DE

[BleedBlu8792]

3 minutes ago, ColtsArmy84 said:

With Simon and Sheard starting at OLB, Charles harris could slide nicely in at DE

 

? If drafted here, he'll be an OLB as well. 

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9 minutes ago, ColtsArmy84 said:

With Simon and Sheard starting at OLB, Charles harris could slide nicely in at DE

Yeah, I think he will be an OLB. He looked great in linebacker drills at the combine and his size is OLB-like, not 3-4 DE.

[Boiler_Colt]

I've been warming up to him more and more. I used to be a Tak McKinley guy as he's an elite athlete, but Harris may be the more polished pure pass rusher. Much better with his hands and has a better variety of pass rush moves. Really helped himself with his pro day too.

[DaColts85]

10 minutes ago, ColtsArmy84 said:

With Simon and Sheard starting at OLB, Charles harris could slide nicely in at DE

Simon is 6'1'' 260 and Sheard is 6'2'' 255.  Both larger than Harris who is 6'3'' 235 so he would for sure be the OLB out of the 3 just based on size.  I would also say he has great athleticism so OLB would be great.  I would love to have him.  Put Sheard in Walden's spot and have Harris and Simon rotate. 

[Smonroe]

3 minutes ago, Boiler_Colt said:

I've been warming up to him more and more. I used to be a Tak McKinley guy as he's an elite athlete, but Harris may be the more polished pure pass rusher. Much better with his hands and has a better variety of pass rush moves. Really helped himself with his pro day too.

 

Yeah, I'm still on the Tak bandwagon, but that injury scares me.  I'd be happy with Harris, Riddick, even Cunningham.  But nothing is going to surprise me with that first pick unless it's a QB.

[BleedBlu8792]

1 minute ago, DaColts85 said:

Simon is 6'1'' 260 and Sheard is 6'2'' 255.  Both larger than Harris who is 6'3'' 235 so he would for sure be the OLB out of the 3 just based on size.  I would also say he has great athleticism so OLB would be great.  I would love to have him.  Put Sheard in Walden's spot and have Harris and Simon rotate. 

235? He measured 250+ at his pro day and at the Combine.

[DaColts85]

Sorry misread the pro day weight of 253.  Regardless out of the 3 I would have Harris rushing as an OLB and not DE.

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

I would be happy if the colts drafted him. I think he is a target for the Colts depending on who is avalable at 15. 

[AZColt11]

Fine with me IF they really think he's the best guy on the board at 15.  If not, trade back to where you think you can still get him and get more picks.  But definitely a good player who addresses a real need.

[throwinbbz]

I watched his game tape (not highlights) and saw all those moves but also an inability to chase guys
down. They were able to get away from him. His 4.82 40 showed.
 Tak McKinley may not have all the moves but his speed did show. He will chase Lots of guys down.

[Jason_]

2 hours ago, DaColts85 said:

Simon is 6'1'' 260 and Sheard is 6'2'' 255.  Both larger than Harris who is 6'3'' 235 so he would for sure be the OLB out of the 3 just based on size.  I would also say he has great athleticism so OLB would be great.  I would love to have him.  Put Sheard in Walden's spot and have Harris and Simon rotate. 

 

None of those 3 guys would play DE in our 3-4 base front.

[Andrew Luck fan club]

Harris > Takk

I don't know about him at 15. 

[richard pallo]

I would rather trade back and take him later in the 1st.  If he is there at 15  I could see Ballard taking Lamp or one of the tackles ahead of him if they are also there at 15.  BPA.

[DaColts85]

20 minutes ago, J@son said:

 

None of those 3 guys would play DE in our 3-4 base front.

Well aware of that, read the original post I responded to.

[Jason_]

5 minutes ago, DaColts85 said:

Well aware of that, read the original post I responded to.

 

I did...and I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you except that it seemed you left a little wiggle room with this comment:

 

"Both larger than Harris who is 6'3'' 235 so he would for sure be the OLB out of the 3 just based on size. "

i was just clarifying that, no matter what the difference in size between the 3 are that none of them would play DE in our base front.

[DaColts85]

1 minute ago, J@son said:

 

I did...and I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you except that it seemed you left a little wiggle room with this comment:

 

"Both larger than Harris who is 6'3'' 235 so he would for sure be the OLB out of the 3 just based on size. "

i was just clarifying that, no matter what the difference in size between the 3 are that none of them would play DE in our base front.

I again would not disagree with you at all.  The original post stated that with adding Simon and Sheard would we have Harris play DE.  I responded with my comment just saying that out of the 3 he would be the last one I would pick.

[BProland85]

Indy could still trade down and get an impact LB. One of Foster, Reddick, Takk, or Harris should be available in the early to mid 20s. 

[SP_21]

I don't like Harris at all so I'd be a little upset if we drafted him at 15. That said if he came in and balled out I'd shut up real quick  

[LockeDown]

TOp 10 is reserved for prototype players.  I like Harris, but like someone said, he doesn't have premier speed for an edge rusher.  Maybe some gamesmanship going on.

[CR91]

im fine with harris, but not at 15. trade with the chiefs. I'm sure they would take someone like patrick mahomes and we'd get a good return. maybe get their second and both their third round picks while also giving them our third

[UKColt13]

Understandable. His tape is really fun to watch. I'm not sure he's a scheme fit for us though.

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2 hours ago, UKColt13 said:

Understandable. His tape is really fun to watch. I'm not sure he's a scheme fit for us though.

How come? He's prototypical size for the position and he looked great in the OLB drills.

[UKColt13]

12 minutes ago, stitches said:

How come? He's prototypical size for the position and he looked great in the OLB drills.

 

I just think he's a more natural down lineman. From what I remember he spent 99% of his college career with his hand in the dirt, by all means correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to his tape as I write this. Not saying he's a bad fit necessarily but there might be more natural OLBs out there.

 

He will be really good though.

[ColtsBlueFL]

I do not believe a single word anybody ( i mean anybody!) says about how a team feels about a player.  Thia is Lie time.  I believe scouting reports (even conflicting ones as valuable insights might have been missed or glossed over by the other) that are_not_connected to how a tram feels a bout a player.  Info gets leaked this time of year hoping to get others to re-assess their rankings, hoping to direct attention elsewhere so a desired player slides through.

 

Don;t believe team hype and lies folks.  In addition, if a guy does leak proper material and teams then 'lose out' because of it, that guy will never get inside info ever again. 

[AZColt11]

On 4/7/2017 at 0:57 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

I do not believe a single word anybody ( i mean anybody!) says about how a team feels about a player.  Thia is Lie time.  I believe scouting reports (even conflicting ones as valuable insights might have been missed or glossed over by the other) that are_not_connected to how a tram feels a bout a player.  Info gets leaked this time of year hoping to get others to re-assess their rankings, hoping to direct attention elsewhere so a desired player slides through.

 

Don;t believe team hype and lies folks.  In addition, if a guy does leak proper material and teams then 'lose out' because of it, that guy will never get inside info ever again. 

This ^ right here.

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On 4/7/2017 at 7:05 PM, UKColt13 said:

 

I just think he's a more natural down lineman. From what I remember he spent 99% of his college career with his hand in the dirt, by all means correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have access to his tape as I write this. Not saying he's a bad fit necessarily but there might be more natural OLBs out there.

 

He will be really good though.

Hm, I don't know man. I don't know the stats of how many times he and the average EDGE player in college rushes from 2 point stance.

[Str8himalaya]

I've admittedly not watched a ton of film on him, but I don't see how anyone could be low on Barnett and not have the same concerns on Harris. He seems like a poor mans barnett at best, at least my opinion. Most of the film I HAVE seen is him beating poor schemes or poor technique. The guy he wrecked from Vandy was terrible, and the kid from Georgia wasn't much better. The guy has a non-stop motor, which is awesome, but with #15? I'm taking a great athlete with the production. Reddick or Foster would be my preference, Reddick definitely because of the versatility he brings with coverage, rushing the passer, and instincts. Just my .02

[Superman]

Concerns about scheme fit with edge rushers are very overblown, especially this time of year. You look for traits specific to pass rushers. The stance or alignment isn't as important. If a player doesn't have red flags related to work ethic or coachability, there's no reason to conclude that a good edge rusher with high level traits can't play either 4-3 end or 3-4 OLB/rusher in the NFL. Lots of players have done it, and will continue to do it.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 4/6/2017 at 11:50 AM, stitches said:

 

 

These "he's a top-10 prospect" scouting reports tend to worry me, for obvious reasons...

 

"...Staying healthy the entire year, Werner collected 13 sacks and seems to have played his way into the top ten picks of April's draft.

 

Werner is an explosive pass rusher off the snap. He possesses ideal length for the defensive end position and always seems to fly off the ball. The combination of his length and explosive first step makes him a handful for any offensive tackle. Add to that his ability to bend around the edge, and Werner possesses the skill set to wreak havoc as a speed rusher."

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/5/3835694/bjoern-werner-2013-nfl-draft-scouting-report

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14 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

These "he's a top-10 prospect" scouting reports tend to worry me, for obvious reasons...

 

"...Staying healthy the entire year, Werner collected 13 sacks and seems to have played his way into the top ten picks of April's draft.

 

Werner is an explosive pass rusher off the snap. He possesses ideal length for the defensive end position and always seems to fly off the ball. The combination of his length and explosive first step makes him a handful for any offensive tackle. Add to that his ability to bend around the edge, and Werner possesses the skill set to wreak havoc as a speed rusher."

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/5/3835694/bjoern-werner-2013-nfl-draft-scouting-report

I think we should judge players individually and not put undue burden of previous failures on the new prospects.

[JPPT1974]

Well said Stiches!

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Just now, stitches said:

I think we should judge players individually and not put undue burden of previous failures on the new prospects.

 

I don't disagree, but Charles Harris as a top 10 seems like a reach to me.

[Superman]

31 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

These "he's a top-10 prospect" scouting reports tend to worry me, for obvious reasons...

 

"...Staying healthy the entire year, Werner collected 13 sacks and seems to have played his way into the top ten picks of April's draft.

 

Werner is an explosive pass rusher off the snap. He possesses ideal length for the defensive end position and always seems to fly off the ball. The combination of his length and explosive first step makes him a handful for any offensive tackle. Add to that his ability to bend around the edge, and Werner possesses the skill set to wreak havoc as a speed rusher."

 

http://www.sbnation.com/nfl-mock-draft/2013/1/5/3835694/bjoern-werner-2013-nfl-draft-scouting-report

 

This is why scouts have to really dig into the tape and know what they're really seeing. I hadn't watched Werner very much before we drafted him. Afterward, I was able to find some old FSU games and watch with a more critical eye, and there were warning signs.

 

1) He wasn't explosive off the snap. He was very good at anticipating the snap, and this gave him a head start on a lot of plays. But watching the amount of ground he was covering and the time it took him to cover it from first movement, it became obvious that "explosive" was not close to the right word to describe him. Saying he flies off the ball was equally inaccurate. Snap anticipation is important, but in college where QBs clap their hands demonstrably before every snap, it's not exactly rocket science, and it doesn't necessarily carry over to the NFL, with all the different cadences and silent counts and whatnot. And going back over some college tape, on the plays where he didn't look like he was flying off the ball, he was routinely among the last to react, and that's what he looked like most often in the NFL.

 

(Edit: Since it's now baseball season -- it's like the difference between being a fast base runner who steals a lot of bases, and being an average speed base runner who is really good at reading the pitcher's first move toward the plate. When you're facing more polished pitching, your advantage goes away almost entirely, and now you're exposed.)

 

2) He also didn't have any bend around the edge, especially when dealing with a long tackle or being pushed wide by a double team. He did have some plays where he came around the corner and flattened down the line pretty well, but he had many more where he was pushed deep into the backfield and was nowhere near the play.

 

3) His skill set was pretty limited as a pass rusher. He had strong hands and a decent rip, and played will enough balance and strength to set the edge, but as a pass rusher, he didn't show any variety of moves. He had no counter, so he wasn't putting moves together to beat blockers, and he didn't have the burst and explosiveness to catch blockers off their game. Also glaring was his lack of closing speed, even in college; how many near sacks did he have as a rookie, but just didn't have the ability to finish the play? His poor test numbers -- especially agility numbers -- where a precursor of this.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, and I could be exaggerating some of his deficiencies now that we know so clearly how he turned out, so I'm not saying this to be critical of anyone who watched/graded him four years ago. But I don't think what you posted is an accurate summary of him as a draft prospect, based on what I watched. He was basically a strong guy who did a good job of reading the snap and getting a jump on the play.

 

It's eerie how similar Harris' web is to Werner's. They tested very similarly. But again, you have to really pay attention to what the tape shows. I think there are some deficiencies in Harris' game, but I do think he has burst, closing speed, bend, and especially setting him apart from Werner are his varied pass rush moves. They are not similar players on tape. You still have to dig into the tape and make sure you know what you're watching, obviously, and he might wind up busting like Werner did. But I don't think they are comparable prospects. 

[stitches]

@Superman very nice post. Just wanted to add about Harris' combine numbers and web - some drafniks were speculating on twitter that something wasn't right with him at the combine. I was shocked at how bad his combine was. I would have never guessed from his tape. His pro-day numbers were much closer to what you'd expect watching his tape. He absolutely killed it - bested both his jumps by ~6", bested his 3cone by half a second. Now, I know there is some level of homecooking with measurements at those pro-days, but those are incredible discrepancies.

 

We can't really know what happened at the combine, but purely from watching him play, I'm more inclined to accept the pro-day numbers as more representative of his athleticism.

 

 

[Superman]

Just now, stitches said:

@Superman very nice post. Just wanted to add about Harris' combine numbers and web - some drafniks were speculating on twitter that something wasn't right with him at the combine. I was shocked at how bad his combine was. I would have never guessed from his tape. His pro-day numbers were much closer to what you'd expect watching his tape. He absolutely killed it - bested both his jumps by ~6", bested his 3cone by half a second. Now, I know there is some level of homecooking with measurements at those pro-days, but those are incredible discrepancies.

 

We can't really know what happened at the combine, but purely from watching him play, I'm more inclined to accept the pro-day numbers as more representative of his athleticism.

 

Even if you split the difference between the two workouts, you wind up with a different looking web. 

[OffensivelyPC]

29 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

 

1) He wasn't explosive off the snap. He was very good at anticipating the snap, and this gave him a head start on a lot of plays. But watching the amount of ground he was covering and the time it took him to cover it from first movement, it became obvious that "explosive" was not close to the right word to describe him. Saying he flies off the ball was equally inaccurate. Snap anticipation is important, but in college where QBs clap their hands demonstrably before every snap, it's not exactly rocket science, and it doesn't necessarily carry over to the NFL, with all the different cadences and silent counts and whatnot. And going back over some college tape, on the plays where he didn't look like he was flying off the ball, he was routinely among the last to react, and that's what he looked like most often in the NFL.

 

(Edit: Since it's now baseball season -- it's like the difference between being a fast base runner who steals a lot of bases, and being an average speed base runner who is really good at reading the pitcher's first move toward the plate. When you're facing more polished pitching, your advantage goes away almost entirely, and now you're exposed.)

 

2) He also didn't have any bend around the edge, especially when dealing with a long tackle or being pushed wide by a double team. He did have some plays where he came around the corner and flattened down the line pretty well, but he had many more where he was pushed deep into the backfield and was nowhere near the play.

 

 

Regarding these two, i think Werner taught me what explosive was not, years down the road. It sucks he was a guinea pig for me on a Colts team, but, he is now a solid example I look to compare against, across any position really (not that i compare burst of DE with that of WR, but just what "burst" looks like).

 

Re #2 - you mentioned scheme differences and I think bend around the corner is important across both, but I think inabilityto bend as a 4-3 edge becomes exploited if transitioned 3-4 edge guy, especially in coverage. Its one of those traits that scheme ttanslations matter more than others IMO.

[OffensivelyPC]

3 minutes ago, stitches said:

@Superman very nice post. Just wanted to add about Harris' combine numbers and web - some drafniks were speculating on twitter that something wasn't right with him at the combine. I was shocked at how bad his combine was. I would have never guessed from his tape. His pro-day numbers were much closer to what you'd expect watching his tape. He absolutely killed it - bested both his jumps by ~6", bested his 3cone by half a second. Now, I know there is some level of homecooking with measurements at those pro-days, but those are incredible discrepancies.

 

We can't really know what happened at the combine, but purely from watching him play, I'm more inclined to accept the pro-day numbers as more representative of his athleticism.

 

BTW, @Superman I'd love to see you do a scouting report on Harris.

We should...we also owe one on Bowser.

[stitches]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

Even if you split the difference between the two workouts, you wind up with a different looking web. 

BTW, @Superman I'd love to see you do a scouting report on Harris.