Question about 3-4 defense

[Coltscrazy]

I love the tough pass rushing linebackers, but I wonder how the scheme works where the linebackers can't cover.  You have two outside backers who are basically pass rushing ends, and two inside backers who need to fill on the inside.  Add big down linemen, and who is supposed to cover the pass?  Do you need elite DBs to make it work?  Is it almost all single man coverage? Do we need the Bronchos or Seattle secondary to not get exposed?  I remember Polian saying it was extremely expensive to make a good 3-4.   I'm not afraid to show my ignorance, but how does coverage work when you have big heavy linebackers who should be moving straight ahead?  Thanks.

[aaron11]

the ilbs in a 3-4 do drop into coverage, usually a lot more than they are blitzing

 

if the offenses is spread out, then they pretty much have to cover unless you have some really good blitzers

 

against a tight running formation they know they can attack

 

 

[a06cc]

We run a hybrid 3-4 defense. It's totally different than a base 3-4. We ask our players to know both bases.

[Jason_]

23 minutes ago, Coltscrazy said:

I love the tough pass rushing linebackers, but I wonder how the scheme works where the linebackers can't cover.  You have two outside backers who are basically pass rushing ends, and two inside backers who need to fill on the inside.  Add big down linemen, and who is supposed to cover the pass?  Do you need elite DBs to make it work?  Is it almost all single man coverage? Do we need the Bronchos or Seattle secondary to not get exposed?  I remember Polian saying it was extremely expensive to make a good 3-4.   I'm not afraid to show my ignorance, but how does coverage work when you have big heavy linebackers who should be moving straight ahead?  Thanks.

 

The strong-side OLB doesn't rush the passer every down...far from it.  They're responsibility is generally more in dropping into coverage and watching for the run.

[a06cc]

Again we play a hybrid so depending on the opponent each week we'll give different looks. The front 7 is asked to do a multitude of assignments. 

[Myles]

I prefer the 4-3 myself.  

 

 

[Jason_]

19 minutes ago, a06cc said:

Again we play a hybrid so depending on the opponent each week we'll give different looks. The front 7 is asked to do a multitude of assignments. 

 

they were much more of  a hybrid defense the first 3 years Pagano was here.  The year they drafted Henry Anderson and David Parry, they switched to running primarily a 1-gap 3-4 defense similar to Wade Phillips' defense.  They do still run multiple fronts, but the base defense is a 1-gap 3-4.

[SaturdayAllDay]

Ok you will have to bear with me, because I am an offensive guy first and foremost, and what little defensive coaching experience I have was high school football in Canada, where the game is a bit different, so some things might not sync up 100%. This is just my understanding, and I am far from a professional. 

 

The key plan behind a 3-4 defense is that although you typically rush 4 people, the offense only really knows where 3 are them are for sure coming from. You can disguise blitzes and coverage by using all 4 LBs in different situations, doing different things. Add in plays where you rush more than 4, and it can be a very intimidating defense to read, especially for an inexperienced QB. 

 

In a perfect world you want 4 LBs who can all cover, blitz and stop the run at an above average to elite level. That is near impossible to do so you look for players who can at least do 1 thing well, and at least 1 of the other 2 things decently. Their best skill matchups typically decide where to play your players, as your Strong side OLB (SAM) is typically slated as an edge setting run defender, your Strong side ILB (MIKE) is typically your inside run stuffer, you Weak side ILB (WILL) is typically a LB that can cover RBs and TEs, and your Weak side OLB (RUSH) is typically your best pass rusher. This is all typical base structure, and can change based on the coach, or even the personnel at hand. 

 

After that you have to cater your play calls based on what your players strengths are (in a majority of cases), like you dont want to drop your RUSH OLB into coverage very often if his secondary skill set isnt coverage. That being said sometimes it makes sense to do so on occasion as it catches your opponent off guard. You can also get around the lack of all around talent by using subs. Walden is known as our edge setting SAM, and he has some pass rush skills as well, but his pass coverage isnt the best. Having a player behind him like Ayers, who can pass rush or drop into coverage, is good because in certain passing situations we can sub him in and have a more well suited player for the situation. That being said, Walden is a better pass rusher over Ayers so it doesnt always make sense to sub him out for passing situations. It is all about showing different looks and keeping the offense guessing.

 

 Typically why people say that having a 3-4 is expensive is because good OLBs are expensive and if you want to have good depth behind them it takes a lot of resources, either in draft picks, Cap space or a combination of the 2. ILBs are typically less expensive, but even then it costs a lot to get a good rotation with some depth. The fact that we run a primarily Man-to-man scheme in the secondary amplifies this cost, as we have to pay a premium for cover corners because we need a good rotation of players who can cover 1 on 1. The fact that we also typically use a safety as an ILB in pass situations means that we need a deep safety group to make that happen effectively, although we could fix that issue by simply getting a good coverage WILL. 

 

Hope this makes sense, and anyone who knows better than me, feel free to add in or correct as needed!!

 

 

[Coltscrazy]

I know we run a lot of hybrid and 1-gap looks, but the problem is the same.  Do you want guys like Courtney Upshaw playing in space?  Even the faster pass rushers are pretty much rush specialists.  A long time ago, I asked about the linebacker responsabilities  in a 3-4, and someone was nice enough to link me to an article.  I guess 1 ILB is basically a coverage backer, and the other is more of a two down thumper.  That still leaves you with two specialized rushers and 1 thumper plus the 3 down linemen.  This seems problamatic?  Is our nickel package mainly a 3-3?  I guess I'd want some pumped up safeties behind a huge front 3, and add pressure through speed and the scheme.  Thanks SaturdayALLDay, I just posted before I read your post.  It doesn't seem to be a very flexible defense.  All the parts seem specialized and isolated.  As an offense guy, you have a unique perspective.  I know it is deceptively hard to run against a 3-4, but I'd counter it by airing it out.  thanks.

[SaturdayAllDay]

27 minutes ago, Coltscrazy said:

I know we run a lot of hybrid and 1-gap looks, but the problem is the same.  Do you want guys like Courtney Upshaw playing in space?  Even the faster pass rushers are pretty much rush specialists.  A long time ago, I asked about the linebacker responsabilities  in a 3-4, and someone was nice enough to link me to an article.  I guess 1 ILB is basically a coverage backer, and the other is more of a two down thumper.  That still leaves you with two specialized rushers and 1 thumper plus the 3 down linemen.  This seems problamatic?  Is our nickel package mainly a 3-3?  I guess I'd want some pumped up safeties behind a huge front 3, and add pressure through speed and the scheme.  Thanks SaturdayALLDay, I just posted before I read your post.  It doesn't seem to be a very flexible defense.  All the parts seem specialized and isolated.  As an offense guy, you have a unique perspective.  I know it is deceptively hard to run against a 3-4, but I'd counter it by airing it out.  thanks.

The thing is that if you get the right personnel it is a VERY flexible defense, as you have potentially 4 Lbs who can cover or rush and the offense has to play a guessing game as to who is doing what, fake a few blitzes on one side and drop them back into coverage, while bringing a delayed blitz to the other side, and you have a free shot at the qb, often untouched as the offense has slid protection the other way.

 

 The problem is getting the correct personnel. 4-3 is easier to get the personnel for, but it is a much easier defense to read from on offensive standpoint. 

[BR-549]

43 minutes ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Ok you will have to bear with me, because I am an offensive guy first and foremost, and what little defensive coaching experience I have was high school football in Canada, where the game is a bit different, so some things might not sync up 100%. This is just my understanding, and I am far from a professional. 

 

The key plan behind a 3-4 defense is that although you typically rush 4 people, the offense only really knows where 3 are them are for sure coming from. You can disguise blitzes and coverage by using all 4 LBs in different situations, doing different things. Add in plays where you rush more than 4, and it can be a very intimidating defense to read, especially for an inexperienced QB. 

 

In a perfect world you want 4 LBs who can all cover, blitz and stop the run at an above average to elite level. That is near impossible to do so you look for players who can at least do 1 thing well, and at least 1 of the other 2 things decently. Their best skill matchups typically decide where to play your players, as your Strong side OLB (SAM) is typically slated as an edge setting run defender, your Strong side ILB (MIKE) is typically your inside run stuffer, you Weak side ILB (WILL) is typically a LB that can cover RBs and TEs, and your Weak side OLB (RUSH) is typically your best pass rusher. This is all typical base structure, and can change based on the coach, or even the personnel at hand. 

 

After that you have to cater your play calls based on what your players strengths are (in a majority of cases), like you dont want to drop your RUSH OLB into coverage very often if his secondary skill set isnt coverage. That being said sometimes it makes sense to do so on occasion as it catches your opponent off guard. You can also get around the lack of all around talent by using subs. Walden is known as our edge setting SAM, and he has some pass rush skills as well, but his pass coverage isnt the best. Having a player behind him like Ayers, who can pass rush or drop into coverage, is good because in certain passing situations we can sub him in and have a more well suited player for the situation. That being said, Walden is a better pass rusher over Ayers so it doesnt always make sense to sub him out for passing situations. It is all about showing different looks and keeping the offense guessing.

 

 Typically why people say that having a 3-4 is expensive is because good OLBs are expensive and if you want to have good depth behind them it takes a lot of resources, either in draft picks, Cap space or a combination of the 2. ILBs are typically less expensive, but even then it costs a lot to get a good rotation with some depth. The fact that we run a primarily Man-to-man scheme in the secondary amplifies this cost, as we have to pay a premium for cover corners because we need a good rotation of players who can cover 1 on 1. The fact that we also typically use a safety as an ILB in pass situations means that we need a deep safety group to make that happen effectively, although we could fix that issue by simply getting a good coverage WILL. 

 

Hope this makes sense, and anyone who knows better than me, feel free to add in or correct as needed!!

 

 

Well put and good enough for us laymen 

[Biggz21]

The key to the "perfect 3-4 defense" is having 3 big physical down lineman who demand multiple blockers so the lbs can rush from exotic gaps and stunts to be successful you need your dbs to be lock down corners and your safeties must have a lot of range to cover zones. Inside line backers duties are spy, cover flat zones and curls.

[JColts72]

It stinks. No way it should be kept as do not have the players for it. Next year new HC should go back to 4-3

[Jason_]

22 minutes ago, Biggz21 said:

The key to the "perfect 3-4 defense" is having 3 big physical down lineman who demand multiple blockers so the lbs can rush from exotic gaps and stunts to be successful you need your dbs to be lock down corners and your safeties must have a lot of range to cover zones. Inside line backers duties are spy, cover flat zones and curls.

 

only if you're running a 2-gap 3-4 defense...the colts, primarily are not

[Jason_]

4 minutes ago, JColts72 said:

It stinks. No way it should be kept as do not have the players for it. Next year new HC should go back to 4-3

 

the 1-gap defense the colts have been running the past 2 years is closer to a 4-3 (at least in terms of required personnel) than it is to a 2-gap 3-4. 

[COLTS449]

ILB's or Safeties cover the TE's, RB's and sometimes a WR in the slot. Our EDGE rushers go like this. One rushing most of the time, the other part of the time, dropping back part of the time, and setting the edge vs the run. But I'd prefer 2 monster pass rushing specialist at OLB myself with a backup like a Simon, Walden who can set a hard edge vs the run. Kinda like Baltimore did with Dumervil a few years ago. He'd be in on passing downs. You have to have ILB's who can drop back in coverage whether it be man or a zone to cover the middle of the field.

[COLTS449]

I want like what Denver or KC has. 2-3 monster pass rushing specialist who can do it all.

[theanarchist]

49 minutes ago, Biggz21 said:

The key to the "perfect 3-4 defense" is having 3 big physical down lineman who demand multiple blockers so the lbs can rush from exotic gaps and stunts to be successful you need your dbs to be lock down corners and your safeties must have a lot of range to cover zones. Inside line backers duties are spy, cover flat zones and curls.

As you say in your first sentence, if you have 3 studs up front you are well on your way. In my opinion the next biggest key is that Rush LB. You have to have a great one to make this defense work.

[coltsfanatic24]

Most 3-4 teams run man coverage and blitz so it's important to have elite CB's. Most 4-3 teams run zone coverage with average CB's so you need to rely on two great DE's to create pressure for it to work. The 3-4 is easier to get players for because there are far more undersized DE's at the college level that can play OLB in a 3-4, than DE's that are big enough to come in right away and play as a 4-3 end.  

 

Great 4-3 DE's like JPP, Bennett, and Ansah are a rare breed of size, speed, and athleticism. It's much easier to find a bigger but a bit slower DE like Anderson and Langford to play as a 3-4 DE. Most of the sack leaders are OLB's . If I had to pick one barring all personnel I'd say the 3-4 is better. The 3-4 is better for blitzing and covering spread looks, and works better for having faster players in general. 

[a06cc]

4 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

only if you're running a 2-gap 3-4 defense...the colts, primarily are not

 

4 hours ago, Jason_S said:

 

the 1-gap defense the colts have been running the past 2 years is closer to a 4-3 (at least in terms of required personnel) than it is to a 2-gap 3-4. 

Jason S your an *. You contradict yourself. The last thing I have quoted you on explains what I've been saying. We run a hybrid 3-4 defense. We give multiple looks.

[rock8591]

I have no clue what you just said, don't see how the 2 statements are contradictory.

[cbear]

Well all I know is that I've yet to see anything that I would call "exotic" out of our 3-4.  Even as a dumb fan, I can still predict who will be rushing the passer at least 3/4 of the time.  I'm thinking Baltimore or Pittsburgh type scheming/blitzing, or NE when Peyton was here.  Now those were exotic pass rush schemes.

[OLD FAN MAN]

8 hours ago, SaturdayAllDay said:

Ok you will have to bear with me, because I am an offensive guy first and foremost, and what little defensive coaching experience I have was high school football in Canada, where the game is a bit different, so some things might not sync up 100%. This is just my understanding, and I am far from a professional. 

 

The key plan behind a 3-4 defense is that although you typically rush 4 people, the offense only really knows where 3 are them are for sure coming from. You can disguise blitzes and coverage by using all 4 LBs in different situations, doing different things. Add in plays where you rush more than 4, and it can be a very intimidating defense to read, especially for an inexperienced QB. 

 

In a perfect world you want 4 LBs who can all cover, blitz and stop the run at an above average to elite level. That is near impossible to do so you look for players who can at least do 1 thing well, and at least 1 of the other 2 things decently. Their best skill matchups typically decide where to play your players, as your Strong side OLB (SAM) is typically slated as an edge setting run defender, your Strong side ILB (MIKE) is typically your inside run stuffer, you Weak side ILB (WILL) is typically a LB that can cover RBs and TEs, and your Weak side OLB (RUSH) is typically your best pass rusher. This is all typical base structure, and can change based on the coach, or even the personnel at hand. 

 

After that you have to cater your play calls based on what your players strengths are (in a majority of cases), like you dont want to drop your RUSH OLB into coverage very often if his secondary skill set isnt coverage. That being said sometimes it makes sense to do so on occasion as it catches your opponent off guard. You can also get around the lack of all around talent by using subs. Walden is known as our edge setting SAM, and he has some pass rush skills as well, but his pass coverage isnt the best. Having a player behind him like Ayers, who can pass rush or drop into coverage, is good because in certain passing situations we can sub him in and have a more well suited player for the situation. That being said, Walden is a better pass rusher over Ayers so it doesnt always make sense to sub him out for passing situations. It is all about showing different looks and keeping the offense guessing.

 

 Typically why people say that having a 3-4 is expensive is because good OLBs are expensive and if you want to have good depth behind them it takes a lot of resources, either in draft picks, Cap space or a combination of the 2. ILBs are typically less expensive, but even then it costs a lot to get a good rotation with some depth. The fact that we run a primarily Man-to-man scheme in the secondary amplifies this cost, as we have to pay a premium for cover corners because we need a good rotation of players who can cover 1 on 1. The fact that we also typically use a safety as an ILB in pass situations means that we need a deep safety group to make that happen effectively, although we could fix that issue by simply getting a good coverage WILL. 

 

Hope this makes sense, and anyone who knows better than me, feel free to add in or correct as needed!!

 

 

good post

[OLD FAN MAN]

58 minutes ago, a06cc said:

 

Jason S your an *. You contradict yourself. The last thing I have quoted you on explains what I've been saying. We run a hybrid 3-4 defense. We give multiple looks.

i concur

[Jason_]

5 hours ago, a06cc said:

 

Jason S your an *. You contradict yourself. The last thing I have quoted you on explains what I've been saying. We run a hybrid 3-4 defense. We give multiple looks.

 

If running multiple looks means you run a hybrid defense then every team in the league runs a hybrid defense. The hybrid part of the defense the colts ran when pagano first arrived did not refer to the fact that they ran multiple fronts, it meant that the defensive front in that defense was a hybrid (or combination) of a 1 gap front and a 2 gap front. They would 2 gap the strong side but 1 gap the weak side. 

 

That's the way the front played when pagano first arrived. Redding, Chapman and Walden would cover 2 gaps while RJF and Mathis covered 1 gap each on the weak side. 

 

They no longer do that. Now they almost strictly play 1 gap all across the front 7. We had no players on the defense the past 2 years that could hold up covering 2 gaps other than maybe McGill and Kerr, but theyre both better at shooting gaps than facing double teams.

 

Hopefully that makes things more clear.