[Speculation] Jack Doyle to test free agency (Merged)

[21isSuperman]

2 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

We agree on a lot. But not this time. We need a big rebuild for sure, but we can bring in a young RB along side Frankie, no need to let him go this year.

Gore wants to win a championship.  That's why he signed with Indy.  In 2 years here, he hasn't even played a single playoff game for us because we haven't made it.  He's going to be 34 to start the season.  This team has tons of holes on defense, and I don't think we'll be able to keep up with New England, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.  If Romo goes to the Broncos, they could be a threat in the AFC too.  Gore is probably going to retire in 2 years, so he has a 2 year window in which he can win a Super Bowl.  As much as I'd love to see the Colts win a Super Bowl in the next two years, I can't see it happening with the roster the way it currently is.  You cut Gore to save money and make your roster younger.  At the same time, Gore can go and try to win a championship.

 

My question to you is what do we gain by keeping Gore?  The only arguments I can think of are that he can still run the football (counter: we can get a cheaper and younger talent from the draft to take his place) and he's a leader in the locker room (counter: the locker room has plenty of leaders).

[throwing BBZ]

Doyle adds great value to our offense. And he and Andrew should get only tighter attacking D`s. He is worth some good $$$.
 Gore is durable and can still give us a lot of carries, if need be, for one more year. We are pretty desperate to add a guy that can stretch a D. lol

[jameszeigler834]

8 hours ago, Jdubu said:

That's your opinion but you're pretty wrong. Allen was better than Fleener in season 1 and that gave the team enough reason to hope someday he would live back up to the rookie year and stay healthy after re-signing him but he hasn't and I feel way more comfortable that Doyle stays and makes plays on the field than Allen staying on the field and making plays for an entire season. 

I would say4 years 15 to 20 million if he wants more than that move on. if he really wants to be back then he will sign a reasonable contract he has had one really good year that alone doesn't make him a 50-60 million tight end.

[throwing BBZ]

5 hours ago, MFT5 said:

roster structure is why you're not running the team. 12mil plus invested en 2avg TEs w 1 often injured is stupid

 

 It is like you are unaware of what Allen will be paid for 2017.
 It is under $5M. 
  And $5M for 2018! Hmmm!

 

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

Swoppe is still an unknown, Doyle I believe would like to stay my guess is he does unless someone gets stupid and pays too much. I personal think he stays. Testing the market and wanting to leave are 2 different things. I think he an his agent want to Gage his wroth? As for Allen we did what we needed to to sign him. It was the right move at the time IMO.

[riftastic28]

8 hours ago, Jdubu said:

That's your opinion but you're pretty wrong. Allen was better than Fleener in season 1 and that gave the team enough reason to hope someday he would live back up to the rookie year and stay healthy after re-signing him but he hasn't and I feel way more comfortable that Doyle stays and makes plays on the field than Allen staying on the field and making plays for an entire season. 

If Allen can stay healthy he's better then Doyle . But I will say this there both mediocre te at best nothing special 

[DougDew]

22 hours ago, #12. said:

I won't dispute it.  

 

Of course there were 303 other legitimate reasons to fire Grigson. 

Yup.  And everybody talks only about the other 303...most of which happened years ago...but never mention the terrible DA signing as contributing to his firing.   N e v e r   m e n t i o n.

[Lawrence Owen]

I don't know what his market value is.  He had what many would call a break out season,..or an anomally.  Frankly, i think it shows him as a good outlet for Luck, and a guy with decent hands.  Not to mention he can block.  I'd keep him.  He's so well liked in the locker room, the media, and the State of Indiana,..i'm sure he'll stick around.  There will be a mutually beneficial signing here.

[Lawrence Owen]

3 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Gore wants to win a championship.  That's why he signed with Indy.  In 2 years here, he hasn't even played a single playoff game for us because we haven't made it.  He's going to be 34 to start the season.  This team has tons of holes on defense, and I don't think we'll be able to keep up with New England, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.  If Romo goes to the Broncos, they could be a threat in the AFC too.  Gore is probably going to retire in 2 years, so he has a 2 year window in which he can win a Super Bowl.  As much as I'd love to see the Colts win a Super Bowl in the next two years, I can't see it happening with the roster the way it currently is.  You cut Gore to save money and make your roster younger.  At the same time, Gore can go and try to win a championship.

 

My question to you is what do we gain by keeping Gore?  The only arguments I can think of are that he can still run the football (counter: we can get a cheaper and younger talent from the draft to take his place) and he's a leader in the locker room (counter: the locker room has plenty of leaders).

Counter:

Lets get FA and the draft out of the way, let Gore see the new pieces, and decide for himself.  If he wants to move on to somewhere he thinks has a legitamit shot because he thinks Indy doesn't,..let him go on his terms.  He's earned that right IMO.

[MFT5]

10 hours ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 It is like you are unaware of what Allen will be paid for 2017.
 It is under $5M. 
  And $5M for 2018! Hmmm!

 

no im not looking at exact numbers but if Doyle's projected to get 6-7mm per then that adds up to what ?? hmmm.

 

So I stand where, if Allen weren't here id hesitantly give jack that deal but that still doesn't mean he's worth it. the situation would just be optimum. at this point I'd rather let 1 or the other go develop Swoope and invest that money elsewhere 

 

'Anywhere Else'

 

*

[Dark Superman]

The Colts must really see something in Swoope.

 

I rather cut Allen and pay Doyle, then draft someone.

[braveheartcolt]

2 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Counter:

Lets get FA and the draft out of the way, let Gore see the new pieces, and decide for himself.  If he wants to move on to somewhere he thinks has a legitamit shot because he thinks Indy doesn't,..let him go on his terms.  He's earned that right IMO.

No he hasn't. He is under contract I assume. If we want him to stay, he can't just walk off because he wants to.

[Lawrence Owen]

59 minutes ago, braveheartcolt said:

No he hasn't. He is under contract I assume. If we want him to stay, he can't just walk off because he wants to.

correct, he has contract left.   i am saying talk with him.  And yes he has earned the right of playing for whom he wants...IMO just for the profesionalism he has shown throught his career,..not just here.  He'd stay and play out his contrctual obligations i am sure, because that is the type of player/person he is (or seems to be).  But with people saying we should 'cut him loose' so he can sign with another team for a chance to win a SB before he retires is what i am saying....if that is your plan..let him decide if he thinks Indy is still the best place for him before cutting him loose 'for his own good'.

 

[esmort]

13 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

People on this website are consistently wrong about money.     More times than not,  they are way too low in the offers they think the Colts should make.

 

And, then from time to time,   they offer way too much to get the player they have a crush on.

 

You can often visit Spotrac to give you an idea of what the market looks like for a free agent target.

 

The market for Doyle is roughly 5.5--6 mill per year over 4 years. 

 

We can afford it if we want to.....     we have the money.

 

 

 

^^^ This

 

I think one of the closest comparisons for age and stats is Ladarius Green and he got $5 mil/yr (4 yr/$20 mil) last off-season from Pit, so you have to think that is Doyle's absolute floor. Vance McDonald (similar age/stats) had 2 productive seasons and re-signed early with SF for ~$6.5 mil/yr (3yr/$19.65 mil) this is likely Doyle's ceiling unless a team really overpays.  

 

This means the Colts are likely going to have to pay around the number NCF layed out above (4yr/$5.5 -$6 mil) if they want to keep him. 

 

Everyone thinking/saying we are going to retain him for $3-4 mil/yr are kidding themselves. 

 

IMO I would pay him $5.5 - $6.5 mil/yr ... we have the money and we won't have another hole we have to try to fill. It's not going to have any bearing on whether or not we sign any of the big name FAs that many are wanting. 

 

If we are going to start emphasizing building through the draft and developing our own, that also means we have to pay our own; and until we have built up some depth we my have to pay some players rather than letting them walk out the door. Playing hardball over a few dollars ends up with situations like we had with Freeman. 

 

 

[braveheartcolt]

10 minutes ago, esmort said:

 

^^^ This

 

I think one of the closest comparisons for age and stats is Ladarius Green and he got $5 mil/yr (4 yr/$20 mil) last off-season from Pit, so you have to think that is Doyle's absolute floor. Vance McDonald had 2 productive seasons and resigned early with SF for ~$6.5 mil/yr (3yr/$19.65 mil) this is likely Doyle's ceiling unless a team really overpays.  

 

This means the Colts are likely going to have to pay around the number NCF layed out above (4yr/$5.5 -$6 mil) if they want to keep him. 

 

Everyone thinking/saying we are going to retain him for $3-4 mil/yr are kidding themselves. 

 

IMO I would pay him $5.5 - $6.5 mil/yr ... we have the money and we won't have another hole we have to try to fill. It's not going to have any bearing on whether or not we sign any of the big name FAs that many are wanting. 

 

If we are going to start emphasizing building through the draft and developing our own, that also means we have to pay our own; and until we have built up some depth we my have to pay some players rather than letting them walk out the door. Playing hardball over a few dollars ends up with situations like we had with Freeman. 

 

 

Nicely said. All of it.....

[braveheartcolt]

12 minutes ago, Lawrence Owen said:

correct, he has contract left.   i am saying talk with him.  And yes he has earned the right of playing for whom he wants...IMO just for the profesionalism he has shown throught his career,..not just here.  He'd stay and play out his contrctual obligations i am sure, because that is the type of player/person he is (or seems to be).  But with people saying we should 'cut him loose' so he can sign with another team for a chance to win a SB before he retires is what i am saying....if that is your plan..let him decide if he thinks Indy is still the best place for him before cutting him loose 'for his own good'.

 

If the Colts think he can deliver for us, in no way do we let him go somewhere else, just because he has been a great player. This is a business, not an awards ceremony. Plenty of time for the adulation once he retires. If his heart is not in it (which I doubt), then that maybe another story.....but we just don't let him go because he has been good.

[NewColtsFan]

On 2/11/2017 at 10:21 PM, GoColts8818 said:

Not shocking and I wouldn't be shocked if he left.  Not because he's a bad player but because the Colts hired a new GM and new GMs bring in their own talent.  Two years into Grigson the Colts had six players on the roster the pre-dated him. That's it. 

 

Of course Doyle is talented so Ballad might bring him back like Grigson did Wayne and Mathis but I wouldn't be shocked if Doyle was playing some place else next year.

 

The two situations are not the same.

 

Grigson was brought in to literally tear down the previous team and do a complete rebuild.

 

Ballard is going to get rid of the waste,  but this is not a complete rebuild.     Ballard has to build a defense while making sure that the offense gets what it needs to be a top-10 unit.

 

I don't see the two plans as being near the same......

 

Of course, your mileage may vary........

 

 

[theanarchist]

22 hours ago, Shafty138 said:

35 catches, 406 yds, 11.6 avg, 23 lg, 6 td's, 0 fumble, 0 sacks

59 catches, 584 yds.  9.9 avg, 24 long, 5 td's 0 fumble, 0 sacks

15 catches, 297 yds, 19.8 avg, 46 long, 1 td, 0 fumble, 0 sacks

 

Allen, Doyle, Swoope....... keep doyle if you can, but if someone gets stupid paying him, promote Swoope, hope he can block after a few ST years, and get a young guy to move in, hoping Allen stays healthy.... when DA isn't bitten by the injury bug, he's just as much an all around TE as Doyle, but with more big play ability.....I want Doyle back, but won't fret and can rationalize any decision they make, as long as the money saved if Doyle leaves, is best utilized, and not just left sitting......

3

Your numbers don't bear that out. Doyle, in my opinion is a step above Allen in all the important TE catorgories and if  you want to throw in Health and consistency then he's definitely better. Allen is not worth what he got paid. Doyle is worth what Allen got paid. Thank you Ryan Grigson.

[lollygagger8]

Gotta keep JD! Not only has he earned Luck's trust, but he's an excellent teammate and even Ballard says you can't buy a locker room. 

 

I don't think you let him go especially when the Colts have to use most of the draft for defense. 

[Ratking]

I hope they pay Jack. Allen got paid fat cash and he has stone hands. 

[John Waylon]

Not at all surprised. The Allen deal doesn't leave us with a lot of room to keep him. We have almost 60 million in cap space, but it's hard to commit the kind of money he's going to get to him when we're also paying Allen what we are. That's a lot of percentage of the cap to the position.

 

I'd honestly be in favor of getting rid of Allen to keep him, but I just don't think it's going to work out that way.

 

Doyle is going to land in Atlanta if he doesn't come back.

 

You heard it here first.

 

Matt Ryan knows how to utilize a TE, and they have been looking to fill that void since Gonzalez retired. Doyle is kind of a no-brainer for them.

 

 

*

[BigQandTheManiac]

 I hope he don't think he's worth top notch money after putting up an average season.If that's the case, then I say let him walk and draft a TE. I would like for him to stay, however.

[BullsColtsFan1]

I sure hope Jack comes back.  I think Swoope can do a decent job but I am nervous Allen won't be able to stay healthy.  Jack's a hometown fan favorite too, it'd kinda stink losing him. 

[Steamboat_Shaun]

On 2/11/2017 at 7:52 PM, DougDew said:

Yup,

 

The reason Grigson got fired was because he signed Dwayne Allen and didn't tie up Doyle last spring.  Now we run the risk of having to keep the second best TE on the team while Doyle might leave.

 

I don't think that's why Grigson was fired.

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I don't think that's why Grigson was fired.

Sure, resigning DA was not the single reason, but how did the Allen signing stack up against the Adams, DQ, AJ, Cole, and Art Jones signings?

 

Worse, because the the other signings carried very little guaranteed money...and a better player...Doyle, was on the roster.

 

And Grigson wasn't fired after those.  He was fired after the Allen signing...combined with ignoring Doyle.

 

TRich and Werner are old news.

[21isSuperman]

12 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

Counter:

Lets get FA and the draft out of the way, let Gore see the new pieces, and decide for himself.  If he wants to move on to somewhere he thinks has a legitamit shot because he thinks Indy doesn't,..let him go on his terms.  He's earned that right IMO.

I guess that is a possibility, but I think it makes more sense to cut him before free agency so you have a little extra cap space to work with.  The point of the offseason is to save some money where you can while bringing new and young talent to the roster, something we could achieve in parting ways with Gore.  We don't approach the offseason with the intention of keeping Gore happy. 

 

7 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

If the Colts think he can deliver for us, in no way do we let him go somewhere else, just because he has been a great player. This is a business, not an awards ceremony. Plenty of time for the adulation once he retires. If his heart is not in it (which I doubt), then that maybe another story.....but we just don't let him go because he has been good.

For the sake of discussion and just in case you missed it, I'd like your answer on a question I asked.  What do we gain by keeping Gore?  We'd be able to get new talent at the RB spot, and we have plenty of leaders in the locker room.  What do we gain by keeping him?

[Steamboat_Shaun]

1 minute ago, DougDew said:

Sure, resigning DA was not the single reason, but how did the Allen signing stack up against the Adams, DQ, AJ, Cole, and Art Jones signings?

 

Worse, because the the other signings carried very little guaranteed money...and a better player...Doyle, was on the roster.

 

And Grigson wasn't fired after those.  He was fired after the Allen signing...combined with ignoring Doyle.

 

TRich and Werner are old news.

 

The Allen signing was almost a full year ago, only 2 short months after Grigson himself received a 4 year extension.

 

I don't think anything that's been done on the offensive side of the ball, aside from struggling to put an offensive line together, led to Grigson being let go. Failing to build a defense and just generally being a crummy boss led to that.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

16 hours ago, 21isSuperman said:

Gore wants to win a championship.  That's why he signed with Indy.  In 2 years here, he hasn't even played a single playoff game for us because we haven't made it.  He's going to be 34 to start the season.  This team has tons of holes on defense, and I don't think we'll be able to keep up with New England, Oakland, and Pittsburgh.  If Romo goes to the Broncos, they could be a threat in the AFC too.  Gore is probably going to retire in 2 years, so he has a 2 year window in which he can win a Super Bowl.  As much as I'd love to see the Colts win a Super Bowl in the next two years, I can't see it happening with the roster the way it currently is.  You cut Gore to save money and make your roster younger.  At the same time, Gore can go and try to win a championship.

 

My question to you is what do we gain by keeping Gore?  The only arguments I can think of are that he can still run the football (counter: we can get a cheaper and younger talent from the draft to take his place) and he's a leader in the locker room (counter: the locker room has plenty of leaders).

 

Should also be noted that Chris Ballard has zero ties to Gore. If the D'Qwell Jackson release is any indication, it seems like saving money and getting younger is a pretty big priority to Ballard, and with no personal ties to the player, the likelihood of Gore getting released seems high.

[braveheartcolt]

1 hour ago, 21isSuperman said:

I guess that is a possibility, but I think it makes more sense to cut him before free agency so you have a little extra cap space to work with.  The point of the offseason is to save some money where you can while bringing new and young talent to the roster, something we could achieve in parting ways with Gore.  We don't approach the offseason with the intention of keeping Gore happy. 

 

For the sake of discussion and just in case you missed it, I'd like your answer on a question I asked.  What do we gain by keeping Gore?  We'd be able to get new talent at the RB spot, and we have plenty of leaders in the locker room.  What do we gain by keeping him?

We get to keep one of our better players. We don't have many. And our efforts for over 10 years to bring in a good RB has been shocking. And if we do manage to find a decent young RB, working alongside Frank would be worth its weight in gold. We also are not desperate for cap room. It would be folly to part ways with him. Not sure where all these locker room leaders are either. I think we can move on now, we clearly see it differently.

[JPPT1974]

Yeah as it is about value and quality. As well as durability of the players.

[jskinnz]

My two cents...

 

I believe they are stuck with Allen and his contract so it depends on who they like more between Doyle and Swoope.  To me that answer is Swoope.  I understand the sample size is small but I think he has superior athleticism and presents a huge match-up problem.  

 

I think paying Doyle market value when added to Allen's contract is far too expensive for that position.  I believe they can keep Swoope around for another year on team friendly deal and then can gauge if he developed more from his impressive start last year.    

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 2/11/2017 at 5:36 PM, James said:

Definitely dont pay whatever it takes. Doyle is good, but he is not special.

 

I don't think we would need to overpay him & I disagree IMO he has proven he is special . 

We let Fleener go because the brass realized he was good & he improved he does it all as a TE better than any other TE we've had in several years .

He's a keeper while Allen has unimpressed DOYLE the hometown boy has overachieved .Pay the Man ..

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

22 minutes ago, jskinnz said:

My two cents...

 

I believe they are stuck with Allen and his contract so it depends on who they like more between Doyle and Swoope.  To me that answer is Swoope.  I understand the sample size is small but I think he has superior athleticism and presents a huge match-up problem.  

 

I think paying Doyle market value when added to Allen's contract is far too expensive for that position.  I believe they can keep Swoope around for another year on team friendly deal and then can gauge if he developed more from his impressive start last year.    

 

Swoope from day reminds me of Marcus Pollard I like him very much & I hope were not stuck with Allen . That would be unfortunate .

IMO he is the weak link ..

[Superman]

On 2/11/2017 at 7:00 PM, DougDew said:

C'mon, you know this forum.  For some reason D Allen has a following that goes beyond reason, and I don't think it has to do with football.

 

[Superman]

5 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

Should also be noted that Chris Ballard has zero ties to Gore. If the D'Qwell Jackson release is any indication, it seems like saving money and getting younger is a pretty big priority to Ballard, and with no personal ties to the player, the likelihood of Gore getting released seems high.

 

The difference is that Gore played well, Jackson didn't. Gore didn't get suspended for PEDs (I'm not a huge anti-PED guy, but if Jackson was using PEDs, and will now be tested more regularly, it would stand to reason that his performance will decline). And Gore costs $2m less than Jackson would have.

 

I'm not writing it off, I just think the Jackson decision was more about performance and cost than it was about age.

[Superman]

6 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

I don't think that's why Grigson was fired.

 

It's not. DD is saying people like Allen rather than Doyle because Allen is black and Doyle is white.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

It's not. DD is saying people like Allen rather than Doyle because Allen is black and Doyle is white.

 

I'm not touching this with a 10-foot pole.

[Superman]

The TE situation is actually the least of the Colts concerns right now. It sucks that Allen's contract is so oddly structured, and it sucks that he really didn't play well last year (only three drops, despite all the "he has stone hands" comments), but he's still a serviceable player, at worst. At best, he's this guy (wish I could find the gif). He's due ~$5m in 2017, and $5m in 2018. Not super expensive at all, but he didn't live up to the $11.5m he was paid last year. This is one of Mike Bluem's worst structured contracts, IMO. 

 

Swoope is a restricted free agent, and I believe the Colts can control him as such for the next two seasons. That's an easy decision, IMO.

 

The Doyle decision is interesting. On the one hand, you don't want to sink too much money into one position, especially a non-premium position like TE. On the other hand, when you have good young players, you don't just want to let them walk, especially when you already have holes at a lot of other positions. If the Colts had several FAs to think about this offseason, and were maybe looking at getting a comp pick in 2018 to make up for losing Doyle, then I'd be okay with letting him walk. But he's really the only FA of consequence, and assuming the Colts make at least a couple outside signings, Doyle won't be bringing back a comp pick. I'd rather keep him.

 

I'd do my best to keep Doyle, somewhere at $5m/year, with a pay-go structure (unlike Allen's frontloaded structure). I'd even be willing to add some performance incentives to take him to $6m/year -- passes, TDs, snaps played, etc. If 2017 looks similar to 2016, where Doyle is obviously the best TE on the roster and Allen struggles, then Allen is cut after 2017, and you still have Doyle and Swoope. Allen's dead cap hit would be $2m, and you'd save a combined $12.4m against the cap in 2018 and 2019. 

 

So I'd keep everyone in 2017. Total cap hit at TE would be something like $10-11m, which isn't ideal when you don't have an absolute stud at the position. But for one year, when you have a good cap situation? I can live with that.

[bababooey]

NY Giants need a TE right behind a LT. They just moved on from Larry Donnell today. Could see them making a play for Doyle.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

On 2/12/2017 at 3:48 PM, theanarchist said:

You mean like Grigson did for Allen last year? I didn't agree with that move when it happened. Doyle, IMO, is a better player than Allen especially when you consider that he stays healthy. I think Doyle is also a great influence to have on the team and in the locker room. To me, that adds to his value. But that's just me. Doyle is worth keeping at the price Allen got last year. JMO

As Superman points out, the contract Allen got was pretty weird. 

 

The fact that Allen got paid what he got paid and the fact that Doyle flat out out-performed him this year, means Doyle should have the opportunity to get paid as much or more.  I would like to see Doyle back, but my point is that he isn't an 'irreplacable player', we probably really only have 2 or 3 of them on our roster: Luck, Vontae, and TY (IMO, TY could be argued about).  Sure there are guys I would rather us keep and who I like on the Colts, but it isn't like we couldn't find someone for cheaper or in the draft that isn't comparable to Doyle.  Based on what his co-TE gets paid and based on the fact Doyle outperformed that guy, you are right, he is worth what Allen got paid last year.

 

That said, unless the team has a plan in place to release Allen this off-season or next if he is underperforming, it seems to me like having $13/year invested at the TE position is quite high given we desperately need to get better at several other positions like ILB, OLB, probably CB, probably DL, possibly the OL.... we have a pretty nice amount of cap space, so we should probably be able to afford bringing Doyle back.  However, if it comes down to bringing him back at a high price impacting our ability to address needs at positions we must improve at (ILB, OLB), then I would personally rather see us let him walk as we can get someone who is capable of performing at his level for likely less than we can get him.  TE is an important part of our offense, but I don't see us really skipping a beat on offense if we had to insert a different TE -- Doyle is good, but he's not like a Tony Gonzalez, Gronk, etc...

 

There are several TEs in FA who I think could function similarly to Doyle and who would come cheaper: Vernon Davis (his age is a concern, but he could be a stop-gap signing for a year for less than Doyle), Levine Toilolo, Jermaine Gresham, Ryan Griffin, even Jacob Tamme -- I think any of those guys will be less pricey than Doyle and I don't think we'd see a noticeable drop-off in production from the TE #1a.

 

I would be happy to see Doyle back in Indy, I just don't think he's worth overpaying for.  I appreciate what he's done here, and like him as a Colt and Indy native, but I don't think we'll ever see him be much more than an above average TE in this league.