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Lets be real: Peyton was held back by this franchise and coaches


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On 10/19/2016 at 3:08 AM, JPFolks said:

Peyton regularly underperformed in the playoffs.  Since he was the field general when he was out there, in charge of what play was enacted, all adjustments etc. (after a concept "suggestion" from Tom Moore) he bears 99% of the blame for his playoff results which were abysmal.   Sure, he won 2 Super Bowls.. one because of Bob Sanders and two journeyman Running Backs and another because of a transformative defense led by the best player of his generation at rush linebacker.   He played average to poorly in both Superbowl wins and horribly in the losses.  And coaches don't throw interceptions. 

 

That said, I agree Dungy had no killer instinct, but compared to Pagano he looks like Darth Vader.   Caldwell is out of the same school.  Too nice. 

 

This is not true at all. ALL QB's see their stats take a dip in the playoffs, primarily because they are playing better defenses typically along with weather factors. Was Manning the one letting Billy Volek drive down the field to win the game ON THE ROAD in the playoffs? Was Manning the one falling down on a hail mary against the Ravens? Manning did what he was asked to do in both Super Bowl's and that's why he won them.

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On 10/18/2016 at 8:01 PM, Jules said:

You guys are losing your minds now at times lately if this is how a few now feel. We had a HOF GM and a HOF HC. And we had a great OC and o line coach. I can say DC and special teams coaches were weaker links then but looking back we had NOTHING to complain about.

 

It was pure gold compared to what we have now.

 

We also had very tough battles with AFC teams led by great QBs like Brady, Big Ben and Rivers.......

 

 

If we had the old coaching staff in the Dungy years now and Polian things would be a lot better for us.

 

How is it that once Dungy took over as head coach and Caldwell at QB coach that Peyton's turnovers went down and his productivity went up? I strongly feel the message that it is OK to punt resonated with Peyton and it helped, IMO. Dungy's teams were in games against elite teams because we did not shoot ourselves in the foot that much.

 

The thing that made Dungy and Polian work well together is that Polian drafted well for Dungy's system. While Dungy's defensive system may have lacked in aggressiveness several times and that showed up in the playoffs, they would at least make better adjustments and show up prepared in the beginning of games unlike this regime of coaches.

 

While the lack of balance is still prevalent, on the coaching front, those coaches were better. On the GM front, Polian did find better pass rushers than Grigson, and adequate OL that Peyton made look better than they were. Offensively, when more contact was allowed in the playoffs vs the passing O, the lack of balance (lack of aggressive D to increase room for error for O, lack of run O) was exposed.

 

When the O could finally stay balanced, we won the SB. Both Peyton and Luck have their QB flaws and need balanced teams to carry them. Instead of investing in offensive play makers, the Patriots chose to invest in the OL and thus could stay balanced come playoff time making Brady more efficient.

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On 10/18/2016 at 7:35 PM, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

 

Peyton Manning had Tom Moore his coaching was not in question , 

 

The Colts hired Dungy to fix the defense he never did the offense & coaches were already on the payroll so as far as 18 goes  Jim Irsay new what he was doing & on defense he failed with Dungy & Pagano .. 

 

18 & 12 have wasted many years waiting for a defense that could help the offense  win games in 2006 the leagues worst defense turned it on to win in the playoffs bringing home the Lombardi . 

 

Defense wins games offense draws crowds .

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9 hours ago, Restored said:

 

This is not true at all. ALL QB's see their stats take a dip in the playoffs, primarily because they are playing better defenses typically along with weather factors. Was Manning the one letting Billy Volek drive down the field to win the game ON THE ROAD in the playoffs? Was Manning the one falling down on a hail mary against the Ravens? Manning did what he was asked to do in both Super Bowl's and that's why he won them.

Was he the one throwing a critical interception to lose the Super Bowl.... nice try though.  He's not billed as the "average" NFL QB in the playoffs... he's billed by some as being on the Mt. Rushmore of QB's.  His overall record in the playoffs is awful considering he often started with a bye and usually at home.  He became a below average in many games and rarely better than average.  Sure, he had a few big moments but far more average or worse performances.

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2 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Was he the one throwing a critical interception to lose the Super Bowl.... nice try though.  He's not billed as the "average" NFL QB in the playoffs... he's billed by some as being on the Mt. Rushmore of QB's.  His overall record in the playoffs is awful considering he often started with a bye and usually at home.  He became a below average in many games and rarely better than average.  Sure, he had a few big moments but far more average or worse performances.


Manning was very close to perfect during the post season of the loss to NO, with the exception of that one pass. Although he should shoulder significant blame for the pick six, he also didn't drop a possible game breaking TD as Garcon did. He didn't fail to recover the onside kick and he certainly didn't injure Freeney vs the Jets which is the main reason the defense fell apart in the second half vs NO.

Lets not forget that PM is a 14-13 playoff QB. Denver isn't better off without him this year. If we take all the first round byes he was responsible for and credit them as wins then what is his playoff record? Guys like Drew Brees are missing the playoffs often but don't get the same criticism PM received in his career.  

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On 10/18/2016 at 8:56 PM, csmopar said:

To quote General McCullough.

 

 

 

NUTS! 

Thank you for this. My Papaw served in France not too far from Bastogne(Belgium). I wish our country still had that kind of resolve that they did during those days, with the love of country and a willingness to help each other more. Sorry for going off topic, just appreciate the reference. 

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25 minutes ago, GoColtsWin said:

Thank you for this. My Papaw served in France not too far from Bastogne(Belgium). I wish our country still had that kind of resolve that they did during those days, with the love of country and a willingness to help each other more. Sorry for going off topic, just appreciate the reference. 

Will never happen again because of too much "what can I get because I deserve" instead of "what can I do"

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11 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Was he the one throwing a critical interception to lose the Super Bowl.... nice try though.  He's not billed as the "average" NFL QB in the playoffs... he's billed by some as being on the Mt. Rushmore of QB's.  His overall record in the playoffs is awful considering he often started with a bye and usually at home.  He became a below average in many games and rarely better than average.  Sure, he had a few big moments but far more average or worse performances.

 

Cool. One moment where he made mistake doesn't overshadow the many other great moments he had throughout the postseason and regular season. Montana failed in the playoffs at different times as did many of the other "Mt. Rushmore" QB's. His overall record in the playoffs is awful because he was carrying his teams to the playoffs in a number of seasons where they should not have been. Again, go back and look at EVERY starting QB that has made the playoffs consistently and you will see a dip in their numbers from the regular season to the postseason.

 

It's really easy to look at Drew Brees or Eli Manning's playoff record and see it as good when they aren't in the playoffs each year like Peyton's teams were.

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1 hour ago, tikyle said:

Peyton and his arrogance and power in Indy held Peyton back.  When he went to Denver and didn't have that power he was more successful.

 

http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/michael-vick-peyton-manning-nfl-who-is-the-more-mature-quarterback-010911

 

The power was something Polian could have easily taken away, they didn't, and that led to Curtis Painter and other backup QBs being less prepared, thus costing Polian his job as well.

 

Putting all the eggs in the Peyton basket was like playing with fire and it showed in the playoffs. If they only looked at Peyton and the Colts record vs elite Ds in the regular season, it was still around .600, and in the playoffs, when it continued, fans were surprised but you play the elite teams in the playoffs, hands down. Every playoff run, they would play safeties deep and dare the Colts to run. Only one playoff run could we do so.

 

Also, our D fared better vs one dimensional Os like the Jets and Ravens but fell short against balanced Os like the Chargers, Patriots, Steelers etc. Again, looking at the history of Polian constructed teams, his Bills dominated the AFC but when it came to playing the best in the NFC (which was the stronger conference then, IMO like the AFC was during Peyton's prime till about 2007, IMO, when 5 out of 6 SBs since 2001 was won by AFC), there was a physical element they lacked. Outside the first SB where the Giants' masterfully dominated TOP 42-18 for a game plan and won by a wide right missed FG, the Bills were dominated by their NFC counterparts in future SBs.

 

Thus, it was a combination of a lot of things that led to the Peyton era Colts coming up short in the playoffs, IMO. 

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34 minutes ago, chad72 said:

 

The power was something Polian could have easily taken away, they didn't, and that led to Curtis Painter and other backup QBs being less prepared, thus costing Polian his job as well.

 

Putting all the eggs in the Peyton basket was like playing with fire and it showed in the playoffs. If they only looked at Peyton and the Colts record vs elite Ds in the regular season, it was still around .600, and in the playoffs, when it continued, fans were surprised but you play the elite teams in the playoffs, hands down. Every playoff run, they would play safeties deep and dare the Colts to run. Only one playoff run could we do so.

 

Also, our D fared better vs one dimensional Os like the Jets and Ravens but fell short against balanced Os like the Chargers, Patriots, Steelers etc. Again, looking at the history of Polian constructed teams, his Bills dominated the AFC but when it came to playing the best in the NFC (which was the stronger conference then, IMO like the AFC was during Peyton's prime till about 2007, IMO, when 5 out of 6 SBs since 2001 was won by AFC), there was a physical element they lacked. Outside the first SB where the Giants' masterfully dominated TOP 42-18 for a game plan and won by a wide right missed FG, the Bills were dominated by their NFC counterparts in future SBs.

 

Thus, it was a combination of a lot of things that led to the Peyton era Colts coming up short in the playoffs, IMO. 

 

Great post.  I just can't lay all or really any of the blame on the coach in this one.  Those teams were built defensively to play with the lead and rush the passer.  Because if you look at TB Dungy teams vs IND Dungy teams it was night and day.  Polian brought in Dungy to make lemonade out of a bunch of lemons on D.  And he did that, masterfully I might add.  No they weren't perfect, but when you have 80% of your top picks and money tied up in your offense what do you expect.  Our nemesis team didn't have any skill position HOFer.  We had a team full of them.  Our nemesis didn't spend as much on the offensive line.  We did.  Our nemesis stacked their DL with 1st rounders, we didn't.  It's all about philosphy.  I believe the Polian philosophy is not the best.  I am a believer in the Belichick/LeBeau/Parcells/Dungy/Elway/Newsome philosophy of build your D up and try and get a competent QB b/c it's tough sledding in January and a high powered offense doesn't win championships as much as a stifling defense.

 

I just think Manning tried to do too much and it caught up with him in the playoffs.  When he didn't have that burden in DEN he seemed to have more success even when his skill were diminishing.  The defense played a huge part of that as well but even look at his first SB appearance in DEN vs his final one.  Trying to throw your way to a ring is really tough in the NFL.....ask Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Cam Newton, Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.

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9 hours ago, Restored said:

 

Cool. One moment where he made mistake doesn't overshadow the many other great moments he had throughout the postseason and regular season. Montana failed in the playoffs at different times as did many of the other "Mt. Rushmore" QB's. His overall record in the playoffs is awful because he was carrying his teams to the playoffs in a number of seasons where they should not have been. Again, go back and look at EVERY starting QB that has made the playoffs consistently and you will see a dip in their numbers from the regular season to the postseason.

 

It's really easy to look at Drew Brees or Eli Manning's playoff record and see it as good when they aren't in the playoffs each year like Peyton's teams were.

Totally agree but I made the same points a few posts up!

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6 hours ago, tikyle said:

 

Great post.  I just can't lay all or really any of the blame on the coach in this one.  Those teams were built defensively to play with the lead and rush the passer.  Because if you look at TB Dungy teams vs IND Dungy teams it was night and day.  Polian brought in Dungy to make lemonade out of a bunch of lemons on D.  And he did that, masterfully I might add.  No they weren't perfect, but when you have 80% of your top picks and money tied up in your offense what do you expect.  Our nemesis team didn't have any skill position HOFer.  We had a team full of them.  Our nemesis didn't spend as much on the offensive line.  We did.  Our nemesis stacked their DL with 1st rounders, we didn't.  It's all about philosphy.  I believe the Polian philosophy is not the best.  I am a believer in the Belichick/LeBeau/Parcells/Dungy/Elway/Newsome philosophy of build your D up and try and get a competent QB b/c it's tough sledding in January and a high powered offense doesn't win championships as much as a stifling defense.

 

I just think Manning tried to do too much and it caught up with him in the playoffs.  When he didn't have that burden in DEN he seemed to have more success even when his skill were diminishing.  The defense played a huge part of that as well but even look at his first SB appearance in DEN vs his final one.  Trying to throw your way to a ring is really tough in the NFL.....ask Brett Favre, Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, Cam Newton, Carson Palmer, Matt Hasselbeck, etc.

I agree with what you guys are saying but Freeney and Mathis were no scrubs. They both benefited from each other but both had some success without each other (when healthy). Imagine the Colts had just one premier pass rusher right now...

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15 hours ago, Restored said:

 

Cool. One moment where he made mistake doesn't overshadow the many other great moments he had throughout the postseason and regular season. Montana failed in the playoffs at different times as did many of the other "Mt. Rushmore" QB's. His overall record in the playoffs is awful because he was carrying his teams to the playoffs in a number of seasons where they should not have been. Again, go back and look at EVERY starting QB that has made the playoffs consistently and you will see a dip in their numbers from the regular season to the postseason.

 

It's really easy to look at Drew Brees or Eli Manning's playoff record and see it as good when they aren't in the playoffs each year like Peyton's teams were.

Where in any discussion have I mentioned or pointed to either Dree Brees or Eli Manning?  Answer: I haven't a single time before this sentence.  Nice try to use an undiscussed straw man argument to bolster Manning.  I never suggested Brees or E. Manning were even close to the Mt Rushmore of QB's.  P. Manning under performed in the playoffs.  Even during years when the Colts were clearly the class of the NFL with some true stars like Mathis and Freeney on Defense (man would Luck kill to have those guys in their prime like Manning did) and a stable O-Line throughout most of his career not to mention 2 HOF worthy WR's to throw to.  

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2 hours ago, SupermanLuck12 said:

The Colts surrounded Manning with a solid offense all around. They failed to give him a defense and when the Colts played teams with talent on both sides of the ball and went against superior coaches.. it was the Colts defense that couldn't keep opposing teams out of the end zone.

...or get them off the field. 

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3 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Where in any discussion have I mentioned or pointed to either Dree Brees or Eli Manning?  Answer: I haven't a single time before this sentence.  Nice try to use an undiscussed straw man argument to bolster Manning.  I never suggested Brees or E. Manning were even close to the Mt Rushmore of QB's.  P. Manning under performed in the playoffs.  Even during years when the Colts were clearly the class of the NFL with some true stars like Mathis and Freeney on Defense (man would Luck kill to have those guys in their prime like Manning did) and a stable O-Line throughout most of his career not to mention 2 HOF worthy WR's to throw to.  

Peyton has had some Playoff games where he has underachieved but he is 14-13 overall in the Playoffs = above .500 against the absolute best competition. He has won 2 SB's as a starter and been to 4 as well with 4 different Coaches. Tom Terrific lost twice to freakin Eli Manning in the SB and put up 14 points in 2007 when they were 18-0 trying for perfection.

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1 hour ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Peyton has had some Playoff games where he has underachieved but he is 14-13 overall in the Playoffs = above .500 against the absolute best competition. He has won 2 SB's as a starter and been to 4 as well with 4 different Coaches. Tom Terrific lost twice to freakin Eli Manning in the SB and put up 14 points in 2007 when they were 18-0 trying for perfection.

Don't cherry pick that stat. He is 9-10 on the Colts. The 5-3 playoff record on the Broncos does absolutely nothing for the franchise and neither do the 2 SBs he made there and the SB victory. That part of the stats only means something to the Broncos. The 14 years he was here he had a losing 9-10 playoff record when having home-field advantage and a bye the majority of the time. The odds were cut down for us to win the SB. A lot of the time it was win 2 games at home, and we couldn't do it. Tom Brady won 4 SB's and made 6, and he's done it in two less years than Peyton had. I hate Brady, but we are in no position to talk crap about him.

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3 hours ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Peyton has had some Playoff games where he has underachieved but he is 14-13 overall in the Playoffs = above .500 against the absolute best competition. He has won 2 SB's as a starter and been to 4 as well with 4 different Coaches. Tom Terrific lost twice to freakin Eli Manning in the SB and put up 14 points in 2007 when they were 18-0 trying for perfection.

He wasn't the reason we won the Colts SB, two journeymen running backs and Bob Sanders led D won that.  And he's not the reason Denver won their SB.  Their Defense won that game.  Manning was heinous most of that season and many thought Osweiler, who got them past NE in the Reg season giving them home field for Manning, should have remained QB.  But, Manning IS a big part of the story of the two SB losses.    

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37 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

He wasn't the reason we won the Colts SB, two journeymen running backs and Bob Sanders led D won that.  And he's not the reason Denver won their SB.  Their Defense won that game.  Manning was heinous most of that season and many thought Osweiler, who got them past NE in the Reg season giving them home field for Manning, should have remained QB.  But, Manning IS a big part of the story of the two SB losses.    

 

PM more than did his job vs NE and then vs Chicago. It's a team game. Obviously he got his second ring behind a defense that shut down Big Ben, Brady and the MVP in the playoffs but watch the Steelers and NE games closely and you will see he also more than did his job. There is no way they get to the SB with Brock in there. Also, Brock did absolutely nothing vs NE in the regular season win until a few minutes remaining, almost identical to what happened vs the Colts last week. Also, if Gronk doesn't get hurt, NE wins that game and gets home field advantage. The PM performance in the SB vs NO is discussed in this thread numerous times, however, don't forget that in the year he lost to Seattle, he also threw for 400 yards, 2 TD's in the AFCCG vs Tom Brady, of whom he has a 3-1 record against in AFCCG's. PM played in 4 superbowls with 4 head coaches. Imagine he was coached by BB his entire career.  

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1 hour ago, 19colt said:

 

PM more than did his job vs NE and then vs Chicago. It's a team game. Obviously he got his second ring behind a defense that shut down Big Ben, Brady and the MVP in the playoffs but watch the Steelers and NE games closely and you will see he also more than did his job. There is no way they get to the SB with Brock in there. Also, Brock did absolutely nothing vs NE in the regular season win until a few minutes remaining, almost identical to what happened vs the Colts last week. Also, if Gronk doesn't get hurt, NE wins that game and gets home field advantage. The PM performance in the SB vs NO is discussed in this thread numerous times, however, don't forget that in the year he lost to Seattle, he also threw for 400 yards, 2 TD's in the AFCCG vs Tom Brady, of whom he has a 3-1 record against in AFCCG's. PM played in 4 superbowls with 4 head coaches. Imagine he was coached by BB his entire career.  

Well, with him having a a much better team we beat Manning both Super Bowl years...Osweiler came in wit a mediocre Texans team and beat us..... so he's not so bad and last year Manning's season stats were among the worst in the league.

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On 10/18/2016 at 7:35 PM, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

 

On 10/18/2016 at 7:35 PM, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

 

On 10/18/2016 at 7:35 PM, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

Let be real peyton had some of the best weapons in NFL history and choked in a lot of big games. So it wasn't all on coaching. 

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6 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Well, with him having a a much better team we beat Manning both Super Bowl years...Osweiler came in wit a mediocre Texans team and beat us..... so he's not so bad and last year Manning's season stats were among the worst in the league.

 

 

And yet Manning was the QB that did enough to win it all last season....

 

Maybe just maybe you need more than a good QB and an offense to win it all?

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On 10/18/2016 at 8:37 PM, ColtsBlueFL said:

 

Your spouting off without proof of your assertion.  Here, let me refute you. So Peyton was responsible for this-

 

TBay_zpsyejtbrcp.jpg

 

Wait it was HOF QB's Trent Dilfer, Shaun King, and Brad Johnson that did that.  smh...

 

Dungy did nothing for coaching... oh, wait...  Well, there are 6 guys off his coaching tree that became head Coaches:

 

Herm Edwards, Rod Marinelli, Lovie Smith, Jim Caldwell, Leslie Frazier, and Mike Tomlin.

 

Assistants/Coordinators?

 

Mike Shula, Clyde Christiansen, Joe Barry, and Frank Reich.

 

Peyton and Tony had a great synergy, and they helped each other.  Tony didn't just ride Manning's coattails to the HOF.

 

Thanks for this, there are some exceptionally bad posts in this thread.....

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On October 18, 2016 at 4:50 PM, YourNextGM said:

Peyton needed a strong presence to save him from himself at times. To not feel like it was all on him.  He was blessed w/ talent on the offensive side, a real franchise would have found a way to deal some of that talent for help on the defensive side of the ball.

 

The more I hear Irsay talk,  I feel like he believes he had a lot to do with those Manning yrs.  Like Jerry Jones and the Jimmy Johnson yrs.  

"Peyton needed a strong presence to save him from himself at times. "

 

This is so true - very well put. He literally was coaching out there and he over managed on the field.  

 

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On October 20, 2016 at 4:58 PM, ÅÐØNϧ 1 said:

 

Peyton Manning had Tom Moore his coaching was not in question , 

 

The Colts hired Dungy to fix the defense he never did the offense & coaches were already on the payroll so as far as 18 goes  Jim Irsay new what he was doing & on defense he failed with Dungy & Pagano .. 

 

18 & 12 have wasted many years waiting for a defense that could help the offense  win games in 2006 the leagues worst defense turned it on to win in the playoffs bringing home the Lombardi . 

 

Defense wins games offense draws crowds .

"18 & 12 have wasted many years waiting for a defense that could help the offense  win games in 2006 the leagues worst defense turned it on to win in the playoffs bringing home the Lombardi . "

 

This! 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jjcolts said:

"18 & 12 have wasted many years waiting for a defense that could help the offense  win games in 2006 the leagues worst defense turned it on to win in the playoffs bringing home the Lombardi . "

 

This! 

 

 

 

I agree. Go look at PM's stats in 2006. If he played even slightly worse that year, they don't make the playoffs due to that historically bad D. 

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On 10/18/2016 at 4:35 PM, YourNextGM said:

I don't care if Dungy is in the HOF,  1 of the most overrated coaches in history.  Mora and Caldwell speak for themselves.  I'm starting to get the feeling that people think Jim Irsay knows what he's doing just because he had what I believe to be the best qb in the history of the sport.  The playoff failures could have been reversed had Peyton had a coach that actually coached him. 

 

I won't go through this whole thread to see who else comes up with some of the following names,  but these are just some of the people that Peyton Manning had to deal with....

 

1.   HC Tony Dungy

2.   OC Tom Moore.    One of the most respected OC's of all-time.

3.   OL  Howard Mudd     One of the most respected OL coaches of all-time

 

Players:

 

RB Edgerin James, when the prevailing wisdom was that Ricky Williams would be better

WR  Marvin Harrison     HoF

WR Reggie Wayne       Future HoF

TE  Dallas Clark           One of the best TE's of his generation

DE Dwight Freeney      One of the best DE's of his generation

DE  Robert Mathis       One of the best DE's of his generation

 

The team won the 2nd most games in the NFL during Manning's career.     It's disappointing that Peyton only won one Super Bowl.     But he didn't play well in the New Orleans game,   and didn't play well in the playoffs in his first eight years.

 

Peyton is a sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Famer and on the Mount Rushmore of the four greatest QB's ever to play the game.      He couldn't do all that without good coaching and good players.     The idea that he was held back by a poor franchise is just the latest example of how little you know and understand football.

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I won't go through this whole thread to see who else comes up with some of the following names,  but these are just some of the people that Peyton Manning had to deal with....

 

1.   HC Tony Dungy

2.   OC Tom Moore.    One of the most respected OC's of all-time.

3.   OL  Howard Mudd     One of the most respected OL coaches of all-time

 

Players:

 

RB Edgerin James, when the prevailing wisdom was that Ricky Jackson would be better

WR  Marvin Harrison     HoF

WR Reggie Wayne       Future HoF

TE  Dallas Clark           One of the best TE's of his generation

DE Dwight Freeney     One of the best DE's of his generation

DE  Robert Mathis      One of the best DE's of his generation

 

The team won the 2nd most games in the NFL during Manning's career.     It's disappointing that Peyton only won one Super Bowl.     But he didn't play well in the New Orleans game,   and didn't play well in the playoffs in his first eight years.

 

Peyton is a sure fire 1st ballot Hall of Famer and on the Mount Rushmore of the four greatest QB's ever to play the game.      He couldn't do all that without good coaching and good players.     The idea that he was held back by a poor franchise is just the latest example of how little you know and understand football.

 

 

 

Most of this has been hashed out in the thread. Yes, some very good things were in place for PM as you have pointed out. Could more things have been put in place? When you look at the Patriots, what Elway has done, Seattle, then yes, PM would have more rings if he was in those sort of situations his entire career. I suppose the bigger takeaway for me is that Irsay wanted to correct the mistakes of the Manning era so that Luck could win multiple titles as Colts QB and that just hasn't happened. 

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1 hour ago, ThatOneColtFan said:

 

Polian gave that to him too.

 

He was mostly awful in the postseason the year he won a Superbowl. Defense carried him.

 

Luck has neither a great offense or defense.

 

 

Really I must've missed it the Colts played defense with a lead ... created by the offense.

 

A great defense is one that doesn't rely on the offense to carry them(see Broncos of last season or the 2000 Ravens)

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30 minutes ago, CF4L said:

 

 

Really I must've missed it the Colts played defense with a lead ... created by the offense.

 

A great defense is one that doesn't rely on the offense to carry them(see Broncos of last season or the 2000 Ravens)

 

See the 2006 Colts season where Peyton had 3TDs and 7INTs in the postseason and won the Superbowl.

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On 10/22/2016 at 0:10 AM, JPFolks said:

Where in any discussion have I mentioned or pointed to either Dree Brees or Eli Manning?  Answer: I haven't a single time before this sentence.  Nice try to use an undiscussed straw man argument to bolster Manning.  I never suggested Brees or E. Manning were even close to the Mt Rushmore of QB's.  P. Manning under performed in the playoffs.  Even during years when the Colts were clearly the class of the NFL with some true stars like Mathis and Freeney on Defense (man would Luck kill to have those guys in their prime like Manning did) and a stable O-Line throughout most of his career not to mention 2 HOF worthy WR's to throw to.  

 

No, you didn't mention them but I did. The reason is that you want to point out Manning's 14-13 playoff record but don't care to acknowledge that part of that is because of him carrying teams to the playoffs that likely shouldn't have been there in the first place. Eli and Brees have proven that they cannot do that consistently yet a number of people point to their playoff records even though their teams don't make the playoffs consistently.You continue to ignore the notion that ALL quarterbacks see their statistics drop in the playoffs. Spend the time looking at the stats please. Did Manning have some bad playoff games? Yes, as did many of the other great QB's in the history of the game. However, he also produced some of the finest playoff performances as well.

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On 10/23/2016 at 4:27 PM, ThatOneColtFan said:

 

See the 2006 Colts season where Peyton had 3TDs and 7INTs in the postseason and won the Superbowl.

 

Yet, when he had 6 TDs and 2 INTs, one of which was a pick six in the SB, he was still crucified. The truth is somewhere in the middle. I am just saying, we have to stop cherry picking stats. A lot of INTs happen due to several reasons.

 

I have always said this, you jump Brady's pass, it is an incompletion and you jump Peyton's pass, it is a pick (remember Bob Sanders almost jumping Brady's pass while the Colts were down 31-34 before Peyton made his final drive in the 2006 AFCCG). Difference is in arm strength, IMO. It starts mattering in the playoffs when they let contact go and disrupt the Peyton-Moore style timing offense. That is why when we ran it and controlled tempo in the 2006 season and when Kubiak and folks ran more even if it did not produce much in the 2015 Broncos season, Peyton won the SBs. The Peyton offense was not built for the playoffs, it had been proven time and time again. 

 

Ty Law, who had a good knack for Peyton's passes was responsible for 2 or 3 of those 7 INTs, Belichick fooled Peyton for one of those INTs with Asante Samuel jumping it, Peyton even tipped his hat to Belichick on that one. Ed Reed, another guy who has a good knack for Peyton's passes picked him off in 2006 and 2009, both years that Peyton beat the Ravens to make the SB. There were some HOF DBs that Peyton went against. How many HOF secondary players did we have? If there is one thing I want the Luck era D to invest in, it is the secondary. The only year we had 2 very good safeties in Sanders and Bethea, we won the whole thing. Secondary play importance has continued from the early Patriot years (Harrison, Law) to the recent years (Talib, Harris, Ward, Stewart) and Law mugging Harrison came a full cycle when Talib mugged Gronk in the recent AFCCG, I was just laughing realizing how playoff officiating just let folks play unlike the regular season where more illegal contact and PIs were called, which benefited Peyton to make the playoffs. That part had not changed from 2003 to 2015. To nullify it, you had to move the chains with short passes and run the ball to control tempo. Eli and his O did just that in their 2 SB winning runs. It is almost like January ball had to be different than football played from September to December. 

 

My main problem was Peyton would not stay patient with the run or take checkdowns to his RBs, the one year he did, we won it all. Jeff Fisher told the Saints' D, at some point, Peyton would dip into the passing well too much. However, you cannot blame him if they tried 3 runs and got stopped leading 10-3 before the SB half only to let the Saints get a FG to get to 10-6 to even think of an onside kick. If it is 10-3, the Saints do not think of that, IMO. Then down 17-24, 6 or 7 consecutive passes before the fatal pick six.

 

Down 18-21, Edgerrin James open in the flat, a pass would have made it an easier FG for Vandy in 2005 vs Steelers playoff game, but no Peyton had to go deeper for Wayne for an incompletion. But Brady, he would dump it off to Kevin Faulk, Vereen, and now James White etc. to keep the chains moving, we call him the master of dink and dunk but dink and dunk had a greater possibility of completion along with a run game to control tempo in the playoffs. Down 24-28 in the 2007 season divisional game here, 1st and goal at the Chargers 9, 1 run for 2 yards and 3 failed passes. Peyton did listen to coaches, it just needed to be a strong voice telling him what to do. He often thought he had to win it on his arm more than necessary. It was Marvin that suggested they should run it on 3rd and 2 and Addai walked in for the TD for the 2006 AFCCG game winner. Down 3-21, they stayed patient with the run, it was THE big difference that allowed them to tire the Patriots' D.

 

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