4th and 1 and you throw to stone hands

[bleevit]

Allen could have taken a step to the ball on 4th and 1 and avoided any defender contact. With regard to Luck not running, he may have thought he had been hit enough for 1 day and the coaches have been stressing taking care of himself. This may be clouding his normal tendencies. 15 sacks is way, way, WAY, WAY too many. Fix it coaches.

[Flash]

8 hours ago, JPFolks said:

Flash, 

 

Finally, someone who actually supports their disagreement with a sound argument.  Thank you for that.  

 

In your response you make a good point if the purpose of Luck playing QB is to avoid injury at all cost, including losing games.  If that is the beginning and end of his purpose, then you've won the argument,  I see it differently however.  Let's say he literally was risking a major injury on that play (I disagree, but for the sake of forwarding the argument), the pressure was coming just as you say, from the right and from behind,  He has two options at that point, move to safety, or throw the ball and hope he doesn't get hit anyway.  But, I believe he also MUST add to that decision whether they can win or lose based on what he does.  

 

By losing the game, he's now put far more pressure on the entire team to take "at all costs" type risks the rest of the season, including himself.  From the coaching staff to executives to every active and inactive player, 1-3 puts all of them in danger, not just of injury, and I would argue that pressure to play injured, to come back early from injury or to simply play injured just skyrocketed.  If the reason he didn't move left, away from pressure and towards a first down, was fear of injury over fear of losing, he has, by that decision, put everyone at all levels of the team, in more dangerous conditions going forward,   The risk assessment was faulty.  

 

The far lower risk was to evade the pressure towards the first down.  You said the distance was farther than 2 yards, let's say it was.  If he moves toward safety and somehow fails to get the needed yardage, I think it is still a better and safer decision. Tossing the ball put him in all sorts of danger if he was under the pressure you described.  QBs regularly get clobbered on completed passes legally.  Regardless of whether the distance forward and to the left was 2 yards to a first down or 5 yards, it was the place where there wasn't two guys ready to crush him and for a fast, agile and powerful runner like Luck, even if it was the full 5 yards, it was wide open and he more likely than not would have made it to a first down on the edge of game tying field goal range with plenty of time to go. Throwing the ball was an all or nothing proposition with both the passer and receiver under duress.  At worst, the risk was cut in half by eliminating one of two players who could each fail.  

 

You may still disagree Flash, but I do appreciate someone who makes an intelligent argument to support his point, whether it agrees with mine or not contrary to trolldom lore.  Now others can add their views or weigh the points for themselves.  But for those who just troll either side with empty contrarian statements for the sake of obstinance against a person rather than a topic, it isn't debate or disagreement or fun conversation...it's just stereotypical Internet trolldom. 

Hi JPFolks,

 

Thanks for the civil discussion. In order to better illustrate my points, I have included some still frames from the 4th-and-1 play. First, I would like to point out the distance needed for the 1st down. Luck had to get to the 49 yard marker, just at Dwayne Allen's head in the freeze frame. That's roughly 5 yards. Please note that Luck had time to throw without putting himself in danger (shown in the frame), however, he would've taken a hit from #99 and 91 had he decided to run.

 

Secondly, in the frame above, you can see how open Dwayne Allen is. Remember, the play call was a pass, so the decision to throw a pass wasn't necessarily a bad one. Secondly, given how open Allen was, I would still argue that Luck's decision to make the throw instead of running was the correct decision. However, the ball placement was poor. Also, note that Allen has the defender to his back. If he ran a precise route, (a square out) the defender would have had to go through him to get to the ball.

Instead, in this frame, you can see that Allen has started drifting up field. This allowed the defender to undercut the pass and get his hand on Allen's wrist, (photo below).

 

 

 

[dgambill]

I LOVE Andrew...LOVE him as our qb...I wouldn't trade him for another in the league....but Luck makes some of the most bone-headed plays imo. He is like the dumbest smart guy on the field lol. I don't want to criticize him too much but there is always like 3 plays a game I just want to punch the tv lol. I'm not talking about like trying to make a play or something but like....really did you not read that situation or your really not going to protect the football there kinda stuff. I know its stuff he can overcome but man its year 5 and I was just hoping things would start clicking a little faster for him (release and reading defenses) and kinda start making headier plays. His athleticism and arm and play making ability is off the charts and I love that..but that 1 yard pass......as CC would say "Come on man". The coaches obviously called a roll out with a run throw option for Andrew and he made the wrong choice. I know he didn't lose us the game...quite the contrary he kept us in it and brought us back....as often the case...so I don't want people to take this wrong (although I'm sure some will) but hopefully he will keep learning from some of these things like trying to stay up on a sack or the 1 yard pass when he had a lane to just run and pick it up...or just throwing from the seat of his pants sometimes. Just please keep growing young man...alas some of it though is mistakes we saw in his rookie season so maybe he just has a little Brett Favre in him...and we will just have to live with the few bad things to get the great. So please don't roast me but when you watch Tom Brady and Drew Brees and Peyton Manning and Phillip Rivers you just see the differences in choices from them and Andrew at this stage. True they are vets (or were) but its clear that Andrew has a long way to go to get to that next tier.

[dgambill]

5 hours ago, Flash said:

Hi JPFolks,

 

Thanks for the civil discussion. In order to better illustrate my points, I have included some still frames from the 4th-and-1 play. First, I would like to point out the distance needed for the 1st down. Luck had to get to the 49 yard marker, just at Dwayne Allen's head in the freeze frame. That's roughly 5 yards. Please note that Luck had time to throw without putting himself in danger (shown in the frame), however, he would've taken a hit from #99 and 91 had he decided to run.

 

Secondly, in the frame above, you can see how open Dwayne Allen is. Remember, the play call was a pass, so the decision to throw a pass wasn't necessarily a bad one. Secondly, given how open Allen was, I would still argue that Luck's decision to make the throw instead of running was the correct decision. However, the ball placement was poor. Also, note that Allen has the defender to his back. If he ran a precise route, (a square out) the defender would have had to go through him to get to the ball.

Instead, in this frame, you can see that Allen has started drifting up field. This allowed the defender to undercut the pass and get his hand on Allen's wrist, (photo below).

 

 

 

Very good observation! Luck was not the only one at fault there for sure. I do believe he could have made the yardage necessary on a crucial last drive. This isn't like in the middle of the game. There was no other chances...its 4th and 1 so the risk reward to me says make that run. However yes the pass placement and the lack of a precise route hurt us. I respect Andrew a lot trusting his teammates but in this situation he is the best player on the field for us...and that run is well within his ability. I don't want to see Luck hurt but I think that is a play we have to ask Andrew to make for us.

 

Oh well...on to Chicago. Its a must win to get things back on track. Heads will definitely roll if we lose this one.

[AZColt11]

I would agree with the above that perhaps risking the pass vs taking the lane and the run was more risky.  Allen may have dropped it even if the ball was bang on.  Nothing wrong with running for a few yards and sliding once you have the 1st down.  Heck the Jags are just dumb enough to maybe hit him late as he is sliding and giving them 15 yards and FG range.  But I digress. 

 

One thing I would LOVE to see Andy do more of is get in people's faces.  I remember the famous times where Manning got in Reggie's face and got in Saturday's as well.  They all remained friends in the end and all wanted to win.  I think it would serve the team well if Luck did more of that rather than everything always being so positive.  The problem is you have a HC who is always positive and a QB who does the same.  SOMEBODY needs to get in someone's grill from time-to-time and light a fire under some butts!  Perhaps this recent losing will inspire some of that?

[JPFolks]

13 hours ago, Flash said:

Hi JPFolks,

 

Thanks for the civil discussion. In order to better illustrate my points, I have included some still frames from the 4th-and-1 play. First, I would like to point out the distance needed for the 1st down. Luck had to get to the 49 yard marker, just at Dwayne Allen's head in the freeze frame. That's roughly 5 yards. Please note that Luck had time to throw without putting himself in danger (shown in the frame), however, he would've taken a hit from #99 and 91 had he decided to run.

 

Secondly, in the frame above, you can see how open Dwayne Allen is. Remember, the play call was a pass, so the decision to throw a pass wasn't necessarily a bad one. Secondly, given how open Allen was, I would still argue that Luck's decision to make the throw instead of running was the correct decision. However, the ball placement was poor. Also, note that Allen has the defender to his back. If he ran a precise route, (a square out) the defender would have had to go through him to get to the ball.

Instead, in this frame, you can see that Allen has started drifting up field. This allowed the defender to undercut the pass and get his hand on Allen's wrist, (photo below).

 

 

 

Man I wish I could grab screen shots like that to illustrate points, but thank you for doing it for all of us.  

 

I appreciate your meticulous description and conclusions, but let's revisit the very first point you made. You said about Luck needing to get to the 49 yard line and that is where Allen's head was.  Unfortunately, as you can see in the pictures, the Jaguar Logo is midfield.  So just past the middle of the logo is the 49 yard line, which is just about where Luck is standing with the ball (the clip is a bit of an optical illusion in that Luck is much closer than it looks from that angle, a common problem with long throw cameras from the endzone, which is why sometimes certain replay angles throw people off.    But your last pick shows how close he really is to the line to gain, about two strides for the 6'4 Luck.  2 steps forward and to the left, he has the first down going between the defenders who might tackle him, but not before the first down.  Go back and look.  Now, if the first down was the 44, you'd have much more of a point.   But unless I am missing something, the 49 is much closer to Luck and his feet than Allen is to the first down line.  He's further down field with a defender breathing down is neck, as show above in the bottom photo.  If it was 2nd down, throwing to Allen is a no brainer.  If it's 3rd or 4th down, the play is two steps forward and to the left, securing a first down and likely tying at worst, or winning the game.  

 

I am fine if you still disagree, but we all should agree that in the end, the pass turned out to be the wrong decision.  The pass requires 4 aspects to go without problem, the toss, the catch, the defenders near Luck and the defenders near Allen.  The run depended on Luck's feet and if he could make 2 steps (look at the photo, perhaps 2.5 to 3 steps would have been required, but even if that was true, he looks to be open enough to get it) to a first down faster than the surrounding defenders could close that gap and stop him, which history of Luck's running power would suggest was the better option to try.  The risk of injury wasn't really more than the risk of getting hit by someone after he threw, successfully or not.  If he dived for the first down, it could have been 1 step and any hits would have been a 15 yard flag if he was on the ground at the end.  I saw several flags last weekend on QB runs where they didn't slide, got speared on the ground and the flag came in.  

 

I enjoyed the civil back and forth.   Thanks for all the effort above, it made it a lot more fun with photos to illustrate your point as well as mine.  

[theanarchist]

On 10/2/2016 at 0:05 PM, GusBus24 said:

4th and 1 and you throw to Allen who can't catch a cold! Where is Gore? Why didn't Luck step forward one yard? Terrible coaching! 

I agree that Allen has shown inconsistent hands and I'm being kind. I don't blame him for that play. A defender got a finger on it. I blame  him for the wide open drop in the first half that cost us a first down and I believe Ferguson dropped one for a first down in the first half as well and quite possibly Bray did also or maybe it was Dorsett but he would have had to make a pretty good play to make the catch. Bottom line is we had a lot more chances to not be in the position that they were in on that 4th and 1 being behind. Had all the stone hands on the team been ready to play and not dropped 3 passes in the first half chances are we score more points in the first half and those are not on Andrew Luck.

[James]

Dwayne "Stone hands" Allen at it again.

 

Huge momentum kill. All his fault.

 

The Colts need to move on from him and that contract, and it better be soon.

[krunk]

I don't know what Stone Hands problem is.   Get yo stuff together bro!

[Jason_]

On 10/2/2016 at 4:25 PM, jvan1973 said:

The ball was swatted away.  Had nothing to do with allens hands.   It was a terrible formation and terrible play call

 

I disagree about it being a terrible formation and playcall.  Allen got open, luck had time to throw. Should have been an easy conversion. Coach has to be able to count on his star players to make plays when their name is called. 

[Jules]

Stone Hands Forever.

 

Forever Stone Hands.

[Malakai432]

4 hours ago, Jules said:

Stone Hands Forever.

 

Forever Stone Hands.

 

AahAhaha Jules, you just Frankenstein'd this thread......

[Jackie Daytona]

3rd and 9 and 2017......  aka, who cares.  He's gone, we roll with jack as number 1, gain a round and a half in picks, and ship out a 6th....... seems good

[VaAllDay757]

Still a dumb playcall

[Dark Superman]

On 10/2/2016 at 10:05 AM, GusBus24 said:

4th and 1 and you throw to Allen who can't catch a cold! Where is Gore? Why didn't Luck step forward one yard? Terrible coaching! 

Allen is now a Patriot.

He will have the best hands in the league next year.

[Dark Superman]

This play still drives me nuts.

[Dark Superman]

Oh well.. that's why Grigson is gone.

Pagano will be too after this season.

[Narcosys]

Why is this still an active topic?

[Jules]

5 hours ago, Rick_Grimes said:

This play still drives me nuts.

 

Me too it was just an epic hot mess. I realize it was not just the fault of Stone Hands and all but that pass to him was just the icing on the cake to end the game.

 

I thought about that ending for weeks........it's haunting!

[Jules]

3 hours ago, Narcosys said:

Why is this still an active topic?

 

To remember the memory of the great Dwayne Allen as he leaves us to embark on a new chapter of Stone-Hand-Land.

 

 

[Tmoney]

1 hour ago, Jules said:

 

To remember the memory of the great Dwayne Allen as he leaves us to embark on a new chapter of Stone-Hand-Land.

 

 

Your cold as ice!! Hahaha never liked DA on the field but I do appreciate how great he was off the field. Like the trade, but the locker room probably doesn't.