I don't get the love for Dwayne Allen as a player

[corgi]

47 minutes ago, tikyle said:

What did Fleener do better than Allen?

When both were healthy, other than speed, Allen was better at every other aspect of being a TE IMHO.

Blocking, catching, route running, scoring TDs, etc.  Now Fleener's availabilty was much better than Allen's.  But for a guy who basically had the same measurables as Jimmy Graham, Fleener just made zero impact compared to Graham.  Too many dropped passes.  Would not catch the ball in traffic.  Was not a jump ball guy.  Let smallish CB and S guard him.

That hair though.

[tikyle]

1 hour ago, corgi said:

That hair though.

2-che.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

17 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

Allen is OK, but compared to TE's of the past, like Marcus Pollard and Dallas Clark, he isn't very good

 

How many "great years" did Clark/Pollard actually give the Colts? Clark had an 11 TD year in '07 & 10 TDs in '09, but hovered at 3 or 4 the rest of his years in Indy. Pollard topped out at an 8 TD season in '01, and had a couple of 6 TD years. Nothing special outside of that.

 

But by just about any modern standard, there's not anything really "elite" about either one of them. Allen has already had an 8 TD year in a season that he missed 3 games. If it came down to choosing one of these 3, and injuries weren't a concern, I'm honestly taking Allen all day.

[Hoosiernsavga]

Obviously the reliability is the problem with Allen! But I really hope we keep Coffman around because I don't trust Allen staying healthy. We can get by with Doyle, Coffman, and Swoope at TE in worst case scenario. I know we don't have the room for 4 TE on the 53 man roster. But letting Coffman go will be a mistake IMO! 

[krunk]

Not me. I think Coffman is about like any other tight end we could bring in here at the drop of a hat.  Swoope has been with this team for what 3 years now?  It's time to let the guy play.  Next man up and he appears to most definitely have some talent.  I think the guy is going to be pretty good if we have to call upon him.   Needs to learn how to run after catch with physicality instead of getting hammered every time, but the guy has great size and he seems to be just as fast as Fleener or at least no less than a step slower.   I think we'll be alright with Swoope as the 3rd TE.  I don't think we'd need a 4th one.  If we did I think a guy like Coffman would still be around. He's been floating back and forth around the league for years.

[Superman]

11 hours ago, Bluefire4 said:

Because he's not being paid heavily and will be gone on Saturday. I doubt he plays more than 10 snaps Thursday if we can get Smith and Mitchell back out there.

 

Smith and Mitchel have basically never played. Not sure we know that either of them are any better than TGW, although I think they basically have to be by default.

 

I'm being facetious even bringing this up, but seriously, everything bad that happened on defense the past two games was somehow related to TGW being awful. Yet he's still out there with the 1's. And the secondary -- particularly CB -- is injury depleted. This guy could be on the final 53. I don't understand why he's still on the 75, to be honest. They must like something about him, and that makes me nervous. 

 

I just find it interesting that we're seeing complaints about Allen, AC and Luck -- all three of whom are objectively good players who have all done good things for this team. Meanwhile, there are other truly awful players on the roster, stinking it up...

[Bluefire4]

25 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Smith and Mitchel have basically never played. Not sure we know that either of them are any better than TGW, although I think they basically have to be by default.

 

I'm being facetious even bringing this up, but seriously, everything bad that happened on defense the past two games was somehow related to TGW being awful. Yet he's still out there with the 1's. And the secondary -- particularly CB -- is injury depleted. This guy could be on the final 53. I don't understand why he's still on the 75, to be honest. They must like something about him, and that makes me nervous. 

 

I just find it interesting that we're seeing complaints about Allen, AC and Luck -- all three of whom are objectively good players who have all done good things for this team. Meanwhile, there are other truly awful players on the roster, stinking it up...

I don't really think they like him. The bad thing about the Eagles game is that you heard TGW's name all the time getting burned but he only played 18 snaps. Frankie Williams, Chris Milton, and Darius White (who is no longer with the team) all played more than him last game. Darius White was probably worse than TGW but Williams and Milton played pretty well and are way better than him.

 

D'Joun is making the roster regardless because he's a third round pick, and Chuck had good things to say about Mitchell. Hopefully both are healthy enough to receive significant snaps and prove their worth, but either way Milton and Williams will make the roster before Wright.

 

And you can't really fault people for complaining about the three you mentioned because they are huge impact players for the team and if they play bad, they affect our chances of winning. Even if Wright makes the 53 he probably won't have any impact whatsoever in a game.

[krunk]

3 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I don't really think they like him. The bad thing about the Eagles game is that you heard TGW's name all the time getting burned but he only played 18 snaps. Frankie Williams, Chris Milton, and Darius White (who is no longer with the team) all played more than him last game. Darius White was probably worse than TGW but Williams and Milton played pretty well and are way better than him.

 

D'Joun is making the roster regardless because he's a third round pick, and Chuck had good things to say about Mitchell. Hopefully both are healthy enough to receive significant snaps and prove their worth, but either way Milton and Williams will make the roster before Wright.

 

And you can't really fault people for complaining about the three you mentioned because they are huge impact players for the team and if they play bad, they affect our chances of winning. Even in Wright makes the 53 he probably won't have any impact whatsoever in a game.

I don't think they like TGW either. Just need a warm body due to the inuries I guess. I fully expect him to be cut.

[krunk]

25 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

I don't really think they like him. The bad thing about the Eagles game is that you heard TGW's name all the time getting burned but he only played 18 snaps. Frankie Williams, Chris Milton, and Darius White (who is no longer with the team) all played more than him last game. Darius White was probably worse than TGW but Williams and Milton played pretty well and are way better than him.

 

D'Joun is making the roster regardless because he's a third round pick, and Chuck had good things to say about Mitchell. Hopefully both are healthy enough to receive significant snaps and prove their worth, but either way Milton and Williams will make the roster before Wright.

 

And you can't really fault people for complaining about the three you mentioned because they are huge impact players for the team and if they play bad, they affect our chances of winning. Even if Wright makes the 53 he probably won't have any impact whatsoever in a game.

This is probably TGWs last game ever anywhere to be honest!

[krunk]

I can give Frankie Williams a chance.  Not too into Milton though.

[Superman]

41 minutes ago, Bluefire4 said:

And you can't really fault people for complaining about the three you mentioned because they are huge impact players for the team and if they play bad, they affect our chances of winning. Even if Wright makes the 53 he probably won't have any impact whatsoever in a game.

 

Like I said, I'm being facetious, but people complain too much. Luck, AC and Allen are good players, that's the reason they're impact players in the first place. Of all the players to complain about, those three should not be anywhere on the list.

 

I do disagree with the bolded. If TGW makes the team, he'll eventually have to play some defensive snaps, and that will be it. He can't cover his own shadow. I can't see how he makes the team, so believe me I'm not trying to be dramatic, but I hope we're all right and he's gone by Monday. My question is why haven't they gotten rid of him by now. It's not like there isn't someone else out there who might be able to contribute. 

[CanuckColtsFan]

I think if he stays healthy, we have a Jason Witten type guy in Allen

[krunk]

Tay Glover Wright is supposed to have 4.3 speed, but you sure as heck don't see any of that on the field.  It looks more like he stole Antonio Morrisons legs when he's playing which slowed him down from 4.3 to 5.1!  I have to say he(TGW) is bad after actually getting to watch him a couple times.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

22 hours ago, aaron11 said:

blocking tight ends are a dime a dozen.  how much better of a blocker is he than say, doyle or fleener anyway?

 

Allen is a much, much better blocker than Fleener.  It isn't even close.  I'd say he's a much better blocker than Doyle, too (and Doyle is a better blocker than Fleener).

 

Allen has been forced to play a role of blocking TE the past couple of years because of the system he  was in and because our OL was generally awful. 

 

20 hours ago, Pacergeek said:

Allen is OK, but compared to TE's of the past, like Marcus Pollard and Dallas Clark, he isn't very good

 

Allen has played in a totally different system than Pollard or Clark and has battled with injuries.  Very difficult to compare him to either of those 2 given he's still young and has not had opportunities to shine in the passing game like those 2 had.  I'd say Allen is a better overall TE than Pollard for sure, and probably overall better than Clark (Clark was almost like a 3rd WR, though I don't recall him being the redzone threat or blocker that Allen is).

 

2 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

How many "great years" did Clark/Pollard actually give the Colts? Clark had an 11 TD year in '07 & 10 TDs in '09, but hovered at 3 or 4 the rest of his years in Indy. Pollard topped out at an 8 TD season in '01, and had a couple of 6 TD years. Nothing special outside of that.

 

But by just about any modern standard, there's not anything really "elite" about either one of them. Allen has already had an 8 TD year in a season that he missed 3 games. If it came down to choosing one of these 3, and injuries weren't a concern, I'm honestly taking Allen all day.

 

I agree with you.  Dallas Clark also had some injury issues (only played 16 games once in 11 seasons).  His more time-consuming injuries didn't come until later in his career though.  Clark also put up inconsistent numbers and really only had 3 years where he was a serious receiving threat (from his rookie season til the end of his time with Indy, Clark's receptions per year looked like: 29, 25, 37, 30, 58, 77, 100, 37, 34). 

 

Allen still has a  lot to prove, but he has already shown he's a dependable blocker and a solid red zone threat.  He also caught 45 balls in his rookie year, suggesting he can be a receiving threat if given the opportunity.

[DougDew]

Why are there so many comments that say Allen WOULD STAND OUT if he just wasn't asked to do things that doesn't make him stand out.  The title of the thread is not that he is a bad player...but why the love?

 

Why the love for a guy who has not stood out, and is often not dressed?

 

Is it personality?  Who he is?  He's the anti-Fleener?  I don't get the love for a guy who hasn't stood out and has poor attendance. 

[ColtsLegacy]

21 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Why are there so many comments that say Allen WOULD STAND OUT if he just wasn't asked to do things that doesn't make him stand out.  The title of the thread is not that he is a bad player...but why the love?

 

Why the love for a guy who has not stood out, and is often not dressed?

 

Is it personality?  Who he is?  He's the anti-Fleener?  I don't get the love for a guy who hasn't stood out and has poor attendance. 

 

His rookie year, the last time he was in an offense that highlighted all of his skills, he was a top 5 all around TE in football (IMO). And in 2014 he managed to score 8 TDs on minimal targets in Peps poor system. Now that he's back in an offense that has a history of using TEs well (plus, no more Fleener to take targets and PT) the thought process is that Allen should be able to perform like he did in his rookie year and then some.

[BOTT]

3 hours ago, CanuckColtsFan said:

I think if he stays healthy, we have a Jason Witten type guy in Allen

I would say Heath Miller...but a better red zone target 

[DougDew]

1 hour ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

His rookie year, the last time he was in an offense that highlighted all of his skills, he was a top 5 all around TE in football (IMO). And in 2014 he managed to score 8 TDs on minimal targets in Peps poor system. Now that he's back in an offense that has a history of using TEs well (plus, no more Fleener to take targets and PT) the thought process is that Allen should be able to perform like he did in his rookie year and then some.

Well, the offense that was in place his rookie year also highlighted Donnie Avery's skills too, but I didn't ever see much love for him on this forum.  And I think Winston Justice had his best year as a pro that year too.

 

In 2014, what was the nature of the TDs and the targets?   Did DA do something more special to score those TDs or would any TE have done the same?  Does anybody know or do they just assume he did because they want to love him?  IMO, catching TDs in the red zone, as well as getting critical first downs, is sort of the job of any TE.  I don't see where 8 would bestow love on any TE.  

 

 

 

[ColtsLegacy]

11 minutes ago, DougDew said:

Well, the offense that was in place his rookie year also highlighted Donnie Avery's skills too, but I didn't ever see much love for him on this forum.  And I think Winston Justice had his best year as a pro that year too.

 

In 2014, what was the nature of the TDs and the targets?   Did DA do something more special to score those TDs or would any TE have done the same?  Does anybody know or do they just assume he did because they want to love him?  IMO, catching TDs in the red zone, as well as getting critical first downs, is sort of the job of any TE.  I don't see where 8 would bestow love on any TE.  

 

 

 

 

You're right, on all 8 TDs DA just walked into the end zone uncovered and caught an uncontested ball. Average TEs catch 8 TDs on the reg. And I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your Winston Justice and Donnie Avery comparisons. DA excelled at his position in 2012, those two were average at best.

 

Keep reaching.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

His rookie year, the last time he was in an offense that highlighted all of his skills, he was a top 5 all around TE in football (IMO). And in 2014 he managed to score 8 TDs on minimal targets in Peps poor system. Now that he's back in an offense that has a history of using TEs well (plus, no more Fleener to take targets and PT) the thought process is that Allen should be able to perform like he did in his rookie year and then some.

Let's not overlook that Fleener had 8 TDs and more yardage but Allen is so much better, right?

[crazycolt1]

7 hours ago, Steamboat_Shaun said:

 

How many "great years" did Clark/Pollard actually give the Colts? Clark had an 11 TD year in '07 & 10 TDs in '09, but hovered at 3 or 4 the rest of his years in Indy. Pollard topped out at an 8 TD season in '01, and had a couple of 6 TD years. Nothing special outside of that.

 

But by just about any modern standard, there's not anything really "elite" about either one of them. Allen has already had an 8 TD year in a season that he missed 3 games. If it came down to choosing one of these 3, and injuries weren't a concern, I'm honestly taking Allen all day.

In all fairness to Clark he was a first down machine. Those may not come up in normal stats but those are just as if not more important than TDs as you have to have first downs to set up TDs.

[DougDew]

32 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

You're right, on all 8 TDs DA just walked into the end zone uncovered and caught an uncontested ball. Average TEs catch 8 TDs on the reg. And I have no idea what you're trying to prove with your Winston Justice and Donnie Avery comparisons. DA excelled at his position in 2012, those two were average at best.

 

Keep reaching.

The point is that average players like Avery and Justice looked good in Arians offense.  Repeat, even average players looked good.

 

Did DA catch the ball at the 20 yard line and do special things to score 8 times?  Or were 8 TDs the result of a 7 yard route from the 8 yard line and he dove into a LB or safety and his 260 pound momentum pushed him into end zone?  A lot of NFL, or major college for that matter, TEs could do that.  I don't know the nature of his 8 TDs.  Its a question.

[ColtsLegacy]

19 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Let's not overlook that Fleener had 8 TDs and more yardage but Allen is so much better, right?

 

Yes, he is. One word, "Usage".

 

You're the guy who always says "Why does this have to be Allen vs Fleener?" Or "Fleener is gone now so why bring him up?". That's you right?

[ColtsLegacy]

28 minutes ago, DougDew said:

The point is that average players like Avery and Justice looked good in Arians offense.  Repeat, even average players looked good.

 

Did DA catch the ball at the 20 yard line and do special things to score 8 times?  Or were 8 TDs the result of a 7 yard route from the 8 yard line and he dove into a LB or safety and his 260 pound momentum pushed him into end zone?  A lot of NFL, or major college for that matter, TEs could do that.  I don't know the nature of his 8 TDs.  Its a question.

The point is wrong. Neither Avery nor Justice looked good. They looked average at the very best.

 

The nature of his TDs were they were TDs. Very rarely does an average TE catch 8 TDs in a season no matter how you slice it. And when you consider the lack of targets DA received its even more impressive. He scored on nearly 1/3rd of his reception.

[crazycolt1]

17 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Yes, he is. One word, "Usage".

 

You're the guy who always says "Why does this have to be Allen vs Fleener?" Or "Fleener is gone now so why bring him up?". That's you right?

You seemed to be the one who brought up rookie years with you assumption that Allen is a much better TE than Fleener when the numbers say a different thing.

I am sorry if numbers get overlooked.

[ColtsLegacy]

13 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You seemed to be the one who brought up rookie years with you assumption that Allen is a much better TE than Fleener when the numbers say a different thing.

I am sorry if numbers get overlooked.

 

Where did I ever mention or allude to Fleener in this thread? It's a bit hypocritical to start a Fleener v Allen fight when all you do is whine about people who do so. Don't you think?

 

 But, allow me to oblige you.

 

You want to talk rookie years? DAs rookie year absolutely demolished Fleener's. Both statistically and the intangibles.

 

And, to me, DAs play in 2012 was easily the best and most consistent play we have seen at TE from 2012-2015. So, putting him back in a similar system where he is once again the sole #1 TE should have great benefits.

[crazycolt1]

6 minutes ago, ColtsLegacy said:

 

Where did I ever mention Fleener in this thread? And if you want to talk rookie years, DAs rookie year absolutely demolished Fleener's. Both statistically and the intangibles.

I guess I had the years mixed up and made a mistake. All I was doing was bringing up the point that Allen IMO is not that much if any better than Fleener. They are both good TEs but neither are great TEs.

Now the two are on different teams and Fleener is on a much more TE friendly team so making comparisons should end. But I have a feeling they wont.

 

[ColtsLegacy]

15 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

I guess I had the years mixed up and made a mistake. All I was doing was bringing up the point that Allen IMO is not that much if any better than Fleener. They are both good TEs but neither are great TEs.

Now the two are on different teams and Fleener is on a much more TE friendly team so making comparisons should end. But I have a feeling they wont.

 

 

If you want the comparisons to stop, maybe you should stop making them.

 

It was you who first compared the two, not me.

[aaron11]

22 hours ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

Allen is a much, much better blocker than Fleener.  It isn't even close.  I'd say he's a much better blocker than Doyle, too (and Doyle is a better blocker than Fleener).

 

Allen has been forced to play a role of blocking TE the past couple of years because of the system he  was in and because our OL was generally awful. 

 

 

Allen has played in a totally different system than Pollard or Clark and has battled with injuries.  Very difficult to compare him to either of those 2 given he's still young and has not had opportunities to shine in the passing game like those 2 had.  I'd say Allen is a better overall TE than Pollard for sure, and probably overall better than Clark (Clark was almost like a 3rd WR, though I don't recall him being the redzone threat or blocker that Allen is).

 

 

I agree with you.  Dallas Clark also had some injury issues (only played 16 games once in 11 seasons).  His more time-consuming injuries didn't come until later in his career though.  Clark also put up inconsistent numbers and really only had 3 years where he was a serious receiving threat (from his rookie season til the end of his time with Indy, Clark's receptions per year looked like: 29, 25, 37, 30, 58, 77, 100, 37, 34). 

 

Allen still has a  lot to prove, but he has already shown he's a dependable blocker and a solid red zone threat.  He also caught 45 balls in his rookie year, suggesting he can be a receiving threat if given the opportunity.

I think you are under rating fleener as a blocker.  he got better over time and was decent last year

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ColtsFanMikeC]

29 minutes ago, aaron11 said:

I think you are under rating fleener as a blocker.  he got better over time and was decent last year

 

 

He was a pretty terrible blocker coming out of college, and you're correct he improved to mediocre or decent.  Not on the same page as Allen in that regard, not even close.

[aaron11]

On 9/1/2016 at 3:55 PM, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

He was a pretty terrible blocker coming out of college, and you're correct he improved to mediocre or decent.  Not on the same page as Allen in that regard, not even close.

i like allen, but i dont love what he has done here and i think we over paid.  i would not even have considered matching fleeners deal with the saints for the record.  as for allen,  blocking TEs dont have to get big contracts.  he seems to be a talented receiver too, but the numbers just are not there.   1000 yards in four seasons!

 

pep probably did misuse him, but then chud called his number and he inexcusably fumbled. 

 

call me skeptical, i think its more likely that DA is off the team in two years rather than a solid player.  hopefully im wrong

[BlueShoe]

On 8/30/2016 at 11:22 AM, YourNextGM said:

I mean,  he seems like a wonderful human,  but a flawed player.  You rarely see him makimg difficult catches.  You're never going to throw him a jump ball. I actually prefered Fleener as a player,  and I really didn't like him either.  So what is it about Allen that he just had to be re-signed? 

 

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap2000000239965/Dwayne-Allen-20-yard-TD

 

Not many TE's are going down the seam, making that catch, and waltzing into the end zone. 

[AKB]

Allen can essentially be a 6th offensive lineman that defenses have to account for.

 

That's good enough for me. And at the end of the day he's on the team. And the season hasn't started. So it would be nice if everyone stopped acting like they are football gods and can predict another man's health.

 

Thanks

[throwing BBZ]

On 8/30/2016 at 0:22 PM, YourNextGM said:

I mean,  he seems like a wonderful human,  but a flawed player.  You rarely see him makimg difficult catches.  You're never going to throw him a jump ball. I actually prefered Fleener as a player,  and I really didn't like him either.  So what is it about Allen that he just had to be re-signed? 

 

 He has his share of whiffs but is a solid blocker.
 We had no one to replace him!!!

Chuds Offense requires a lot of blocking in the short passing game, and releasing for dumpoffs. This looks just right for Allen, especially if Luck`s hesitation/accuracy doesn`t get him killed.

[ColtsFanMikeC]

On 9/4/2016 at 1:26 PM, aaron11 said:

i like allen, but i dont love what he has done here and i think we over paid.  i would not even have considered matching fleeners deal with the saints for the record.  as for allen,  blocking TEs dont have to get big contracts.  he seems to be a talented receiver too, but the numbers just are not there.   1000 yards in four seasons!

 

pep probably did misuse him, but then chud called his number and he inexcusably fumbled. 

 

call me skeptical, i think its more likely that DA is off the team in two years rather than a solid player.  hopefully im wrong

 

I hope you're wrong, too, though I wouldn't be shocked. 

 

As far as Allen fumbling in a preseason game, he has fumbled 2 times (lost neither) in his time in the NFL -- fumbling is not an issue for him (at least it has not been, and 1 preseason fumble doesn't give me reason for it to become one).

 

He has 1000 yards in really less than 3 seasons (he missed 15+ games in his second year and a combined 6 in the past 2 years).  He had 45 receptions for 500 + yards as a rookie (with a rookie QB, competing with Fleener for balls for a TE, etc.).  In 2014 he had 8 TDs on 29 receptions, pretty darn impressive in the redzone, which was pretty much the only time Pep utilized him.  

 

The coaching staff obviously saw something in Allen to make them want to keep him over Fleener.  Pagano has said multiple times to expect him to become more involved in the passing attack.  We won't know what this offense will do until a few weeks into the regular season, but I firmly expect Allen to contribute in a big way this year (as an all-around TE, something which Fleener is not, IMO). 

[Defjamz26]

I'm not sure if he's better than Fleener. Better hands maybe, and Fleener was soft. But even healthy I never saw him outplay Fleener. Fleener's biggest flaw was not playing like a "true" TE. He never attacked the ball in the air or dropped his pads and bulldozed his way forward after a catch. Always seemed to avoid contact and go down on 1 hit. Allen plays mean and physical.

 

I think they should have tagged Allen and then drafted a TE next year to replace him like Jake Butt.

[YourNextGM]

I wish Sports science would test the caych radius of colts wrs and tes  i bet TY has a bigger radius than Allen.  His vertical is horrible.  That 1 throw Andrew threw amd he had to jump.  Doyle cayches that easy.  Led to a fg btw. 

[Smoke317]

1 hour ago, YourNextGM said:

I wish Sports science would test the caych radius of colts wrs and tes  i bet TY has a bigger radius than Allen.  His vertical is horrible.  That 1 throw Andrew threw amd he had to jump.  Doyle cayches that easy.  Led to a fg btw. 

I noticed after that play, that Allen wasn't in on the next series and Doyle got the next two red zone looks...  On that play Allen didn't even have to jump. If he maintained his course, that ball drops right into his hands.  But he tried to high point the ball and terribly mistimed his jump. Definitely cost us 4 points on that drive. 

[JPFolks]

1 hour ago, YourNextGM said:

I wish Sports science would test the caych radius of colts wrs and tes  i bet TY has a bigger radius than Allen.  His vertical is horrible.  That 1 throw Andrew threw amd he had to jump.  Doyle cayches that easy.  Led to a fg btw. 

Allen scored again in the red zone....he's a great asset/

[oldunclemark]

The only thing wring with Dwayne Allen is: he cant play cornerback