Rookie Class....Wow!

[JPFolks]

5 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

Most NFL teams have at least one position that help is needed bad. You have been so consumed with hating on Grigson that you fail to see anything positive. Like I said before. Living with a negative mindset must be a real bummer. I don't think it's all the doom and gloom you make it out to be.

I am consumed with hating Grigson?  If so why was I arguing that the Colts should keep both him and Pagano last year?  The reason is that there weren't any apparent upgrades available for either.  Pointing out what is and has happened isn't hate, it's just pointing out what happened and what is the status right now.  If you think we have great depth at Corner and Safety and you think our O-Line has been acceptable during Grigson's tenure as well as our RB performances, then that's your problem, not mine.  I think I am simply pointing out the obvious.  It was said that Grigson would be hired in 5 minutes if he was fired here.  I asked by who? No answer was given.  But that's okay, it's obvious that statement was false. 

[JPFolks]

5 hours ago, SP_21 said:

lack of development/ poor performance can derail their plan. 

So you're blaming the Coaching staff for not developing the players that Grigson has given them? 

[crazycolt1]

13 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

I am consumed with hating Grigson?  If so why was I arguing that the Colts should keep both him and Pagano last year?  The reason is that there weren't any apparent upgrades available for either.  Pointing out what is and has happened isn't hate, it's just pointing out what happened and what is the status right now.  If you think we have great depth at Corner and Safety and you think our O-Line has been acceptable during Grigson's tenure as well as our RB performances, then that's your problem, not mine.  I think I am simply pointing out the obvious.  It was said that Grigson would be hired in 5 minutes if he was fired here.  I asked by who? No answer was given.  But that's okay, it's obvious that statement was false. 

Are you thru putting your own words in my mouth? If you think Grigson would not be hired real quick if Irsay fired him I do question your football knowledge. There are very few GMs in the league that has done what he has done in four years.Sorry I cant make you acknowledge that. You can pick and choose anything negative you care to but it does not change the facts of the positive things he has done. Oh by the way, an answer was given just not a specific team. Big difference as you suggested the comment was wrong.

[RockThatBlue]

5 hours ago, braveheartcolt said:

Or his worst........just sayin'

I'd be surprised. 2013 offseason was pretty bad. 

[SP_21]

16 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

Really... we've drafted AT THE BOTTOM of EVERY draft except for one? I didn't need to read beyond that false statement.  

Are you serious??? The Colts have consistently picked in the late 20's for nearly a decade. 

 

Exceptions are: 2002-Freeny-11

                          2012-Luck-1

                          2016-Kelly-18

Not exactly "top of the draft every year" as you said. 

 

Are you trolling or do facts not mean anything to you? 

[JPFolks]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Are you thru putting your own words in my mouth? If you think Grigson would not be hired real quick if Irsay fired him I do question your football knowledge. There are very few GMs in the league that has done what he has done in four years.Sorry I cant make you acknowledge that. You can pick and choose anything negative you care to but it does not change the facts of the positive things he has done. Oh by the way, an answer was given just not a specific team. Big difference as you suggested the comment was wrong.

No, I asked who and you did not name a team.  You gave a broad generality which is opinion, not fact.  If you'd said "in my opinion" he'd be hired in 5 minutes, then fine, that's your opinion.  But you did not qualify it as such so using facts, who would hire him TODAY if he was fired? Name the team or teams.  

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

No, I asked who and you did not name a team.  You gave a broad generality which is opinion, not fact.  If you'd said "in my opinion" he'd be hired in 5 minutes, then fine, that's your opinion.  But you did not qualify it as such so using facts, who would hire him TODAY if he was fired? Name the team or teams.  

I guess a simple explanation is not good enough for you. If you think that Grigson wouldn't find a GM job pretty quick there is nothing I can say to you that would enlighten your negative and argumentative attitude.

[SP_21]

20 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

So you're blaming the Coaching staff for not developing the players that Grigson has given them? 

Nope. Missing the point again. Players don't pan out for many reasons not just poor coaching. 

[JPFolks]

3 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Are you serious??? The Colts have consistently picked in the late 20's for nearly a decade. 

 

Exceptions are: 2002-Freeny-11

                          2012-Luck-1

                          2016-Kelly-18

Not exactly "top of the draft every year" as you said. 

 

Are you trolling or do facts not mean anything to you? 

I simply replied to your point blank statement that we picked at the bottom of EVERY draft but one.  That isn't true... 2 of Grigson's years we drafted at the very top and around the middle.  We drafted later in 3, but in 40% of his drafts, it was NOT at or even near the bottom.  Don't make declarative statements if the facts don't match or accept that I will point out it isn't true.  Exaggeration is fair game to be responded to.    

[SP_21]

1 minute ago, JPFolks said:

I simply replied to your point blank statement that we picked at the bottom of EVERY draft but one.  That isn't true... 2 of Grigson's years we drafted at the very top and around the middle.  We drafted later in 3, but in 40% of his drafts, it was NOT at or even near the bottom.  Don't make declarative statements if the facts don't match or accept that I will point out it isn't true.  Exaggeration is fair game to be responded to.    

Dude you've lost it. I just provided you facts to back up what I said!!! Grigson had one draft in the top 1/3 of the draft. The rest have been mid pack to late. You're the one who is exaggerating saying he's had picks at the top of the draft every round. I'm done with this though. There's no reason to continue this "conversation"

[JPFolks]

3 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Nope. Missing the point again. Players don't pan out for many reasons not just poor coaching. 

Right, so either they aren't coached up to their potential, which you say is not what you meant, okay,  so that leaves the fact that they were bad picks.  Does everyone make some bad picks?  Sure.  Are you saying that Grigson has been at or even near the top of the heap when it comes to GM's and good versus bad picks made?  He hasn't been the worst, but in my opinion he's not among the best either.  Do you disagree? Luck has covered up many bad picks and some poor coaching as well.  If he hadn't been available and we had every other pick made by Grigson, I doubt we would won 3 playoff games, we may not have even made the playoffs.  Luck has saved some jobs.  

[JPFolks]

4 minutes ago, SP_21 said:

Dude you've lost it. I just provided you facts to back up what I said!!! Grigson had one draft in the top 1/3 of the draft. The rest have been mid pack to late. You're the one who is exaggerating saying he's had picks at the top of the draft every round. I'm done with this though. There's no reason to continue this "conversation"

You didn't say "top 1/3" so why change your statement? You said bottom of EVERY draft but one.  So you acknowledge that what you initially said isn't true.  You don't get to revise your original statement and pretend it was that way from the start.  

[SP_21]

11 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

You didn't say "top 1/3" so why change your statement? You said bottom of EVERY draft but one.  So you acknowledge that what you initially said isn't true.  You don't get to revise your original statement and pretend it was that way from the start.  

I'm still right

[BOTT]

5 hours ago, myic90 said:

Grigson has proven to be a quick learner. He's not half as bad as some of ya'll make him out to be.

He learned that he sucks at finding free agent talent so he stopped.  That's a plus I guess.

[SDakColts]

15 minutes ago, JPFolks said:

You didn't say "top 1/3" so why change your statement? You said bottom of EVERY draft but one.  So you acknowledge that what you initially said isn't true.  You don't get to revise your original statement and pretend it was that way from the start.  

Dude really? You are really going to continue to argue over a simple statement of interpretation? It is 100% true we have drafted in the bottom half of each round other than in 2012. By saying that we have drafted in the bottom of every round would technically be correct as any pick after pick 16 would be the bottom half of the draft. He didn't say we drafted last in each round. He has even shown you the facts to back up his statement yet you are still hung on a simple sentence.

[krunk]

There's plenty of GMs out there that have been with there team much longer than Grigson with much less success.  I just can't call for a guy to be fired/constantly trashing who has won and produced a better record than Bill Poian in the same time frame.  You can't use the Luck excuse because Polian had Peyton Manning so what was Polians excuse? To me Roster wise we are at about the same point as Polian was arriving on the 5th year and Grigson didn't even come into the job with the same type of GM experience that Polian did.  Polian got here in 1998 and I remember when I first begun watching the Colts in 2001 the defensive roster was pretty garbage into Polians 3rd year.  We had people like Brad Scioli, Jeff Burris, Chad Cota, Chad Bradtzke, Sam Sword.  Defensively speaking the roster really didn't even begin to take shape until a little bit after Dungy got here to be honest around the 5th year and going forward.  To me we are in about the same place.

 

I look at Rick Smith who's been with the Texans since 2006.  That's 10 years and the Texans have only been to the playoffs twice that I can remember.  Plenty of opportunity to get a decent quarterback and they've always whiffed. I just can't be as impatient as some of you guys.  It takes time.

[BOTT]

13 minutes ago, krunk said:

There's plenty of GMs out there that have been with there team much longer than Grigson with much less success.  I just can't call for a guy to be fired/constantly trashing who has won and produced a better record than Bill Poian in the same time frame.  You can't use the Luck excuse because Polian had Peyton Manning so what was Polians excuse? To me Roster wise we are at about the same point as Polian was arriving on the 5th year and Grigson didn't even come into the job with the same type of GM experience that Polian did.  Polian got here in 1998 and I remember when I first begun watching the Colts in 2001 the defensive roster was pretty garbage into Polians 3rd year.  We had people like Brad Scioli, Jeff Burris, Chad Cota, Chad Bradtzke, Sam Sword.  Defensively speaking the roster really didn't even begin to take shape until a little bit after Dungy got here to be honest around the 5th year and going forward.  To me we are in about the same place.

 

I look at Rick Smith who's been with the Texans since 2006.  That's 10 years and the Texans have only been to the playoffs twice that I can remember.  Plenty of opportunity to get a decent quarterback and they've always whiffed. I just can't be as impatient as some of you guys.  It takes time.

The problem with Grigson is

 

1 he has made many questionable signings in free agency.  Lots of guys with injury histories and questionable talent.

 

2 he's had two first round picks that have been colossal busts....didn't contribute at all.  What he saw in Werner, I will never know.

 

3 I like dorsett as a player, but I stil loathe the pick.  I don't put a high value of having a great receivers.

 

as far as the Texans....you have to be sorta lucky to find a franchise QB.  The colts sure have.....thankfully.

[krunk]

9 minutes ago, BOTT said:

The problem with Grigson is

 

1 he has made many questionable signings in free agency.  Lots of guys with injury histories and questionable talent.

 

2 he's had two first round picks that have been colossal busts....didn't contribute at all.  What he saw in Werner, I will never know.

 

as far as the Texans....you have to be sorta lucky to find a franchise QB.  The colts sure have.....thankfully.

You don't even really need that to have a winning season.  Obrien was able to win without one(franchise qb).   Smith should have at least have been able to find something serviceable and that didn't happen until Shaub. Coincidentally that was around Smiths 5th/6th year.  Say what you want about Grigs mistakes and there have certainly been some, however you want to put it the guy has done better than Polian through the first couple years with much less experience as a GM and he appears to be correcting his mistakes as well and that's what you want to see.  If the same mistakes were being made with no regard for correction then I could entertain him being fired or talking about him like a dog.  He does seem wiling to correct his mistakes and grow from it.

[Yoshinator]

4 minutes ago, krunk said:

You don't even really need that to have a winning season.  Obrien was able to win without one(franchise qb).   Smith should have at least have been able to find something serviceable and that didn't happen until Shaub. Coincidentally that was around Smiths 5th/6th year.  Say what you want about Grigs mistakes and there have certainly been some, however you want to put it the guy has done better than Polian through the first couple years with much less experience as a GM and he appears to be correcting his mistakes as well and that's what you want to see.  If the same mistakes were being made with no regard for correction then I could entertain him being fired or talking about him like a dog.  He does seem wiling to correct his mistakes and grow from it.

HEY! I hold my dog in the highest regard. Even feed her filet mignon at the dinner table. So if I talk about Grigson like a dog, it's a compliment!

[BOTT]

6 minutes ago, krunk said:

You don't even really need that to have a winning season.  Obrien was able to win without one(franchise qb).   Smith should have at least have been able to find something serviceable and that didn't happen until Shaub. Coincidentally that was around Smiths 5th/6th year.  Say what you want about Grigs mistakes and there have certainly been some, however you want to put it the guy has done better than Polian through the first couple years with much less experience as a GM and he appears to be correcting his mistakes as well and that's what you want to see.  If the same mistakes were being made with no regard for correction then I could entertain him being fired or talking about him like a dog.  He does seem wiling to correct his mistakes and grow from it.

In regards to free agency I think he overcorrects.  He was let down by some young guys so he signs a lot of vets....didn't work so this year he really doesn't participate at all.

[SaturdayAllDay]

7 minutes ago, BOTT said:

In regards to free agency I think he overcorrects.  He was let down by some young guys so he signs a lot of vets....didn't work so this year he really doesn't participate at all.

I agree with this 100% 

Unfortunately that is what happens when you have a first time GM.  There will be growing pains while he figures out how best to do his job. He has made a few bonehead moves, but Im hoping he is starting to figure it out and we see far fewer changes in his philosophy going forward.

[krunk]

1 minute ago, BOTT said:

In regards to free agency I think he overcorrects.  He was let down by some young guys so he signs a lot of vets....didn't work so this year he really doesn't participate at all.

Polian never really participated either. Maybe in the beginning but as time went on he did exactly what you see Grigs doing. Depending on the draft and small FA investments IF they make sense.  This years FA Crop wasn't even that good to begin with in terms of what we needed versus the dollars that were commanded. Ted Thompson is the same way as Polian about FA and Green Bays roster is loaded. 

 

Grigson is now following the same strategy as Polian and Ted Thompson.  Build through the draft and make small investments in FA along with low level trades. Grigson still brings in young guys through FA, but it's mostly low level deals like 6th or 7th round draft picks for good players like Sio Moore.  Or waiver wire pick ups for guys like TY McGill, Tevin Mitchel.  Small deals Patrick Robinson who is also a good player. Ryan G just isn't going to spend an insane amount of money on FA players anymore and most of the time it isn't worth it anyway.  The dollars will get spent but mostly on the young talent that deserves to get their contract renewed.  Guys who are already on the roster.  

[BOTT]

35 minutes ago, krunk said:

Polian never really participated either. Maybe in the beginning but as time went on he did exactly what you see Grigs doing. Depending on the draft and small FA investments IF they make sense.  This years FA Crop wasn't even that good to begin with in terms of what we needed versus the dollars that were commanded. Ted Thompson is the same way as Polian about FA and Green Bays roster is loaded. 

 

Grigson is now following the same strategy as Polian and Ted Thompson.  Build through the draft and make small investments in FA along with low level trades. Grigson still brings in young guys through FA, but it's mostly low level deals like 6th or 7th round draft picks for good players like Sio Moore.  Or waiver wire pick ups for guys like TY McGill, Tevin Mitchel.  Small deals Patrick Robinson who is also a good player. Ryan G just isn't going to spend an insane amount of money on FA players anymore and most of the time it isn't worth it anyway.  The dollars will get spent but mostly on the young talent that deserves to get their contract renewed.  Guys who are already on the roster.  

I have never advocated spending large amounts of money in FA. But I don't think polian/Grigson utilized free agency well.  There are free agent signings that help teams every year, people just rember the duds and claim "free agency sucks".  It doesn't, you just have to use it correctly.   Like signing some veteran depth for the offensive line....which I have no idea why he didn't.

 

i don't know if Robinson is good or not, but it does bother me he hasnt been able to stick as a #2 corner with anyone in a league that puts a high value on the position.

[SaturdayAllDay]

5 hours ago, BOTT said:

I have never advocated spending large amounts of money in FA. But I don't think polian/Grigson utilized free agency well.  There are free agent signings that help teams every year, people just rember the duds and claim "free agency sucks".  It doesn't, you just have to use it correctly.   Like signing some veteran depth for the offensive line....which I have no idea why he didn't.

 

i don't know if Robinson is good or not, but it does bother me he hasnt been able to stick as a #2 corner with anyone in a league that puts a high value on the position.

Robinson is really an unknown commodity at this point. No one knows if he was pushing for a payday last yr or if he actually just hit his stride in the NFL. It also could just be that he needed a better supporting cast than he had in New Orleans (it's not like they areknown for their defense). 

 

But all things considered,  I suppose this is similar to what Washington did with Josh Norman,  as he really only had 1, maybe 1.5 good seasons in Carolina.  Only difference is our cap hit is much lower and Robinsons ceiling isn't quite as high. If they have reason to be optimistic about it so do we. 

 

Also I'm not sure i trust grigson signing offensive line depth. He hasn't managed to get a good free agent lineman yet. But I guess even a broken clock has to be right twice a day. Probably wouldn't have hurt to bring someone in on a small contract. 

[Lawrence Owen]

"What does not kill you, makes you stronger"

Injuries have forces extra playing time for young guys, and new hires to help as well.  Since none of the injuries are season ending, there is a real chance that by week 4 we can have a healthy team, with very good depth.

[Rally5]

On 8/23/2016 at 0:50 PM, crazycolt1 said:

1- none of us can be sure if Irsay was going to fire Grigson. That was all fan speculation and opinion.

2- We have no way to know how much control Pagano had earlier and sure don't know now.

3- According to Irsay, Grigson and Pagano draft picks are discussed as a unit of all three plus other peoples input.

4- Your comment about Grigson's ego is just your opinion. There is no evidence his ego had anything to do with anything.

 

1. ok

2. That's known information.

3. Grigson was calling the shots until this year, of course it was discussed but Grigson was going so far as to dictate line-ups so who do you think was calling the shots and setting strategy on draft day.

4. Isn't this an opinion board?

 

It's fine is your a big Grigson homer, so far he's just alright with me....to quote a song.

[crazycolt1]

2 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

1. ok

2. That's known information.

3. Grigson was calling the shots until this year, of course it was discussed but Grigson was going so far as to dictate line-ups so who do you think was calling the shots and setting strategy on draft day.

4. Isn't this an opinion board?

 

It's fine is your a big Grigson homer, so far he's just alright with me....to quote a song.

Being a Grigson homer or not has nothing to do with his job and how he is not near as bad as some people like you make him out to be. You can try to insult me all you care to but all you do is make yourself look silly and childish.

[Buck Showalter]

9 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

1. ok

2. That's known information.

3. Grigson was calling the shots until this year, of course it was discussed but Grigson was going so far as to dictate line-ups so who do you think was calling the shots and setting strategy on draft day.

4. Isn't this an opinion board?

 

It's fine is your a big Grigson homer, so far he's just alright with me....to quote a song.

Are you quoting the Doobie Brothers???

I

[CoachLite]

On 8/23/2016 at 6:14 PM, BOTT said:

I have never advocated spending large amounts of money in FA. But I don't think polian/Grigson utilized free agency well.  There are free agent signings that help teams every year, people just rember the duds and claim "free agency sucks".  It doesn't, you just have to use it correctly.   Like signing some veteran depth for the offensive line....which I have no idea why he didn't.

 

i don't know if Robinson is good or not, but it does bother me he hasnt been able to stick as a #2 corner with anyone in a league that puts a high value on the position.

Last year, we could have signed FA Evan Mathis for guard. We didn't and Denver got him for one year. Denver did OK. Andrew Luck (and every other quarterback on the roster) didn't fare so well. What was the logic behind that?

[Lawrence Owen]

.

[Lawrence Owen]

3 hours ago, CoachLite said:

Last year, we could have signed FA Evan Mathis for guard. We didn't and Denver got him for one year. Denver did OK. Andrew Luck (and every other quarterback on the roster) didn't fare so well. What was the logic behind that?

IMO, Mathis is/was a short term solution, (he tried his teammate Herrimans and failed miserably)and he wanted WAY too much for someone who was not going to contribute past 1-2 years.this years phylosophy is one I personaly agree with.  Get them young and train them up.

I think our o-line will be quite servicable this year.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

On 8/21/2016 at 2:29 PM, lennymoore24 said:

I know it is still early, but I can see great potential from this rookie class, including UDFA.  Rogers looks very good at WR.  I think the drafted OLineman have looked good.  I think Clark needs some work but that was known going in.  Green really can get to the ball.  Ridgeway shows real good power and penetration.  I though Bailey and Simmons showed flashes at DLine.  And the young rush LBs have flashes.  Ferguson hasn't shown yet at RB but you can tell the speed and moves are there.  Yesterday I was impressed because I don't remember seeing so many rookies showing up in a game and making plays.

 

On another note. TY McGill looks dominant at times.  Hope that can carry over to regular season against starters.

 

Lets not get to carried away while we'v seen some good things its just the preseason its hard to judge the play on the field in these glorified practices lets wait until the regular season starts against starters stupid penalties need to be addressed that stood out glaringly , I'm hopeful & I believe this year will be much better but we are just getting started with 2 preseason games in the books we'v seen flashs I can agree with that but the sizzle can fizzle I need to see more consistency for 60 minutes before I buy what your selling .

[chrisfarley]

It's going to be exciting to see some of them blossom.  It gives me goose-pimples when I see a rookie (in a regular season game) come out of nowhere and show glimpses of potential greatness.  It's a very surreal feeling when "our" team has someone come out of the woodwork and then everyone starts talking about them (media, us, coaches, Mike & Mike in the morning, etc.).  Since we had what could turn out to be an excellent draft, I am more excited this year than I have been in 3 to 4 years.  So I think there will be rookies that are expected to do well, who will,,, and then I think there will be a rookie or two meeting those aforementioned shock-and-awe hopes and wishes of the constituents.  Who will it be?  It doesn't happen every year.

[Rally5]

On 8/25/2016 at 2:40 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Being a Grigson homer or not has nothing to do with his job and how he is not near as bad as some people like you make him out to be. You can try to insult me all you care to but all you do is make yourself look silly and childish.

 

I never really insulted Grigson, I made a fair response to your post and you went full defensive.  My account is fair and accurate and frankly I don't root against my own team including the front office but I do expect them to make good decisions, that has been very debatable in the eyes of many if not most throughout his tenure.

[BOTT]

21 hours ago, Lawrence Owen said:

IMO, Mathis is/was a short term solution, (he tried his teammate Herrimans and failed miserably)and he wanted WAY too much for someone who was not going to contribute past 1-2 years.this years phylosophy is one I personaly agree with.  Get them young and train them up.

I think our o-line will be quite servicable this year.

Getting a short term vet doesn't stop a team from coaching a young player up.  Pretty much all the offensive line backups for the Colts are rookies.  IMO that's not a good situation.

[crazycolt1]

11 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

I never really insulted Grigson, I made a fair response to your post and you went full defensive.  My account is fair and accurate and frankly I don't root against my own team including the front office but I do expect them to make good decisions, that has been very debatable in the eyes of many if not most throughout his tenure.

You take what was said in this forum about what went on and what goes on now as the truth when there is no proof of anything. How can you say your account is fair and accurate when you take rumor and gossip from this forum and call it fact? None of us really knows what goes on behind closed doors. Speculation and opinions are not facts.

[Rally5]

It's not rumor and gossip. You're seeing Chucks coaching staff for the first time this year and frankly it's an impressive group.  You saw a significant change in FA and draft strategy, none of this is coincidence or accidental.  Plus if you listen to insider sources they confirm it all, it's not a mystery.  I'm not basing this on message board opinions.  Look man, believe what you want, I really don't care.

[TheRustonRifle#7]

On 8/25/2016 at 2:40 PM, crazycolt1 said:

Being a Grigson homer or not has nothing to do with his job and how he is not near as bad as some people like you make him out to be. You can try to insult me all you care to but all you do is make yourself look silly and childish.

Rally is blocked by me for a reason Bro....

[Rally5]

Now that really hurts.

[crazycolt1]

5 minutes ago, Rally5 said:

It's not rumor and gossip. You're seeing Chucks coaching staff for the first time this year and frankly it's an impressive group.  You saw a significant change in FA and draft strategy, none of this is coincidence or accidental.  Plus if you listen to insider sources they confirm it all, it's not a mystery.  I'm not basing this on message board opinions.  Look man, believe what you want, I really don't care.

So you think Irsay, Grigson and Pagano were are all lying when they all said the changes were made together in a collective manner?