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Great piece on Moncrief


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What are defenses gonna do if/when TY Hilton is the third best receiver on the team???

 

Obviously getting ahead of myself, but both Moncrief and Dorsett have physical traits that Hilton does not. I think Moncrief has already put it together and is ready to do big things. Dorsett is unproven, but if he lives up to his potential, he'll be super dangerous. 

 

I hope Chud makes it happen.

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55 minutes ago, Superman said:

What are defenses gonna do if/when TY Hilton is the third best receiver on the team???

 

Obviously getting ahead of myself, but both Moncrief and Dorsett have physical traits that Hilton does not. I think Moncrief has already put it together and is ready to do big things. Dorsett is unproven, but if he lives up to his potential, he'll be super dangerous. 

 

I hope Chud makes it happen.

 

Personally I think all the talk about the waste of a draft pick that Dorsett was last year will be quickly forgotten this season.  

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

What are defenses gonna do if/when TY Hilton is the third best receiver on the team???

 

Obviously getting ahead of myself, but both Moncrief and Dorsett have physical traits that Hilton does not. I think Moncrief has already put it together and is ready to do big things. Dorsett is unproven, but if he lives up to his potential, he'll be super dangerous. 

 

I hope Chud makes it happen.

I think Moncreif's career path looks similar to Damaryius Thomas thus far. Thomas put up 1400 yards and 10 TDs in year 3. I wouldnt be shocked if Moncrief put up similar numbers next year.

 

He is my favorite player on offense, so forgive any bias. I think he should put up 1000 yards and 8 touchdowns as a baseline.

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2 hours ago, Superman said:

What are defenses gonna do if/when TY Hilton is the third best receiver on the team???

 

Obviously getting ahead of myself, but both Moncrief and Dorsett have physical traits that Hilton does not. I think Moncrief has already put it together and is ready to do big things. Dorsett is unproven, but if he lives up to his potential, he'll be super dangerous. 

 

I hope Chud makes it happen.

 

Hilton would never be the third best wr on any team. Hilton is the unquestioned number one and that won't change for a long time

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3 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Hilton would never be the third best wr on any team. Hilton is the unquestioned number one and that won't change for a long time

I love TY but if Moncrief puts it together he can do things that TY can't because of his size. Moncrief has Deandre Hopkins potential IMO.

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1 hour ago, jskinnz said:

 

Personally I think all the talk about the waste of a draft pick that Dorsett was last year will be quickly forgotten this season.  

 

I think in due time, Dorsett will be a big time play maker. I don't think that will be this season but maybe next, who knows. I'm thinking Moncrief has a huge year.

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4 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I love TY but if Moncrief puts it together he can do things that TY can't because of his size. Moncrief has Deandre Hopkins potential IMO.

 

Moncrief is good don't get me wrong but Hilton runs better routes, has better hands, and much better chemistry with luck

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Moncrief is good don't get me wrong but Hilton runs better routes, has better hands, and much better chemistry with luck

 

All of that is true,  but all of that is true --- today.

 

Doesn't mean it will always be this way.  

 

Once upon a time,  Luck had more chemistry with Reggie Wayne.     Hilton was learning his craft.

 

Now, Luck and Hilton are the top team.     Doesn't mean Moncrief won't run better routes,  develop better hands and find more chemistry with Luck.      Things are always fluid.     Expect a much better year from Moncrief, (and Hilton too, for that matter!)

 

 

 

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2 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Moncrief is good don't get me wrong but Hilton runs better routes, has better hands, and much better chemistry with luck

Fair points. TY is definitely awesome, I just think Moncrief has a high ceiling and can be the best WR on the team. 

 

Can't wait to see how it plays out. 

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24 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Moncrief is good don't get me wrong but Hilton runs better routes, has better hands, and much better chemistry with luck

 

I actually don't agree with most of that. Sure he has better chemistry, he's played more than twice as many games with Luck. But route running and hands are a wash. There's a misconception about Moncrief that he's a lesser route runner or has inconsistent hands, but none of that is true.

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I have mentioned in another thread how much I like Moncrief.  I don't put as much stock in a  WR's heights  as many for a few different reasons.  

 

One thing to consider... both Moncrief and TY were drafted in the 3rd round (both have since shown they are professionals and work on their craft and work to improve themselves so that is why I'm starting there).  If TY had been the size of Moncrief he would have been a 1st round draft pick and perhaps the first WR off the board.  If Moncrief had been TY's size, he probably would not have been drafted.  I'm only saying that to illustrate there are holes in Moncrief's game he can work and he can improve but there is only so much improvement that can be made.  TY will never have the height and arm length of Moncrief... by the same token Moncrief will never have the speed, acceleration, agility and hands of TY.

 

Additionally, I think we are seeing the start of the end of teams focusing on big WRs... teams have been taking bigger CBs for a few years now to combat the bigger WRs... the eait to combat the bigger WRs is with smaller, quicker WRs.  WRs like TY and Dorsett.  Especially if you have a QB that can deliver the ball on time to that WR.

 

I think it bodes well for the Colts in future years.

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1 hour ago, jskinnz said:

 

Personally I think all the talk about the waste of a draft pick that Dorsett was last year will be quickly forgotten this season.  

 

I have been comparing the Dorsett pick to Reggie Wayne since day 1.  Dorsett (pick 29) and Wayne (pick 30), both come from Miami and both were drafted when many fans thought we had much bigger needs than WR in the first round.  Neither had a spectacular rookie year (Dorsett with 18 catches, 225 yards, 1 TD and Wayne with 27 catches, 345 yards, and 0 TDs), and many were still questioning the pick after a year.

 

Fast-forward to the end of Wayne's career and I don't think any Colts' fan is upset that he was picked -- he put in a HOF career after a slow start and is pretty much ubiquitously an All-Time Colt favorite for everyone.  I have the same type of optimism with Dorsett -- and agree with you that it will just be another year or 2 before everyone who bashed the pick will start talking about it as a great move.

 

15 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Hilton would never be the third best wr on any team. Hilton is the unquestioned number one and that won't change for a long time

 

I think there is still major questions about TY being a true number 1 WR in this league.  I like TY a lot, as a person and a player.  I very much respect what he's done on the field and off it.  That said, I think there is still an argument to be made about him that he isn't a true #1 (I'd say guys like Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, MegaTron, Larry Fitz all fit that bill with a few others -- TY is kind of knocking on that door, but I don't think he is there -- in 4 seasons he has surpassed 80 receptions 2x and has never had more than 85 receptions, and I think he's only shown in spurts that he can handle all the attention on him, he seems to struggle more often than not when teams are doubling him or shifting their D to make him the primary focus).  

 

Even this past season, Moncrief had 64 receptions to TYs 69 (TY had almost 400 yards more, but he was also used differently than Moncrief).  Moncrief has very good size and speed and showed tremendous improvements with his hands, discipline and route-running between year 1 and 2, and I expect him to keep it up.  Then Dorsett, IMO (like Superman said) has more physical abilities, being a little bit faster and more agile than TY.

 

I don't think we're going to have an 'unquestioned #1' this season, to be honest.  I think our offense should vary from week to week, based on what the defense is showing us.  There will be, IMO, weeks when different WRs have huge games and weeks when some of them are pretty quiet. 

 

As far as TY not being the 3rd best WR on any team -- I think you could send him to Denver today and make a good case that D. Thomas and E Sanders are as good or better than him, last year I think Detroit could make an argument that he'd have been 3rd to Golden Tate and Megatron, and there are several other teams where TY would be the #2 or 3 (Baltimore with Steve Smith and Mike Wallace, NYJ with B. Marshall and Decker, Tampa Bay with Mike Evan and Vincent Jackson, etc...).

 

Don't get me wrong -- I really like TY.  I just think you're off when you say he is going to be our 'unquestioned #1' 'for a long time.'   Moncrief already showed he was closing in quickly last year.  TY is a very good player, I just don't think it is anywhere near safe to assume he's going to be our unquestioned #1 for a long time to come -- as he only had 5 more receptions than Moncrief just a year ago, especially considering Moncrief is bigger and just as fast and has more room to improve/grow.

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4 minutes ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I have been comparing the Dorsett pick to Reggie Wayne since day 1.  Dorsett (pick 29) and Wayne (pick 30), both come from Miami and both were drafted when many fans thought we had much bigger needs than WR in the first round.  Neither had a spectacular rookie year (Dorsett with 18 catches, 225 yards, 1 TD and Wayne with 27 catches, 345 yards, and 0 TDs), and many were still questioning the pick after a year.

 

Fast-forward to the end of Wayne's career and I don't think any Colts' fan is upset that he was picked -- he put in a HOF career after a slow start and is pretty much ubiquitously an All-Time Colt favorite for everyone.  I have the same type of optimism with Dorsett -- and agree with you that it will just be another year or 2 before everyone who bashed the pick will start talking about it as a great move.

 

 

I think there is still major questions about TY being a true number 1 WR in this league.  I like TY a lot, as a person and a player.  I very much respect what he's done on the field and off it.  That said, I think there is still an argument to be made about him that he isn't a true #1 (I'd say guys like Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, MegaTron, Larry Fitz all fit that bill with a few others -- TY is kind of knocking on that door, but I don't think he is there -- in 4 seasons he has surpassed 80 receptions 2x and has never had more than 85 receptions, and I think he's only shown in spurts that he can handle all the attention on him, he seems to struggle more often than not when teams are doubling him or shifting their D to make him the primary focus).  

 

Even this past season, Moncrief had 64 receptions to TYs 69 (TY had almost 400 yards more, but he was also used differently than Moncrief).  Moncrief has very good size and speed and showed tremendous improvements with his hands, discipline and route-running between year 1 and 2, and I expect him to keep it up.  Then Dorsett, IMO (like Superman said) has more physical abilities, being a little bit faster and more agile than TY.

 

I don't think we're going to have an 'unquestioned #1' this season, to be honest.  I think our offense should vary from week to week, based on what the defense is showing us.  There will be, IMO, weeks when different WRs have huge games and weeks when some of them are pretty quiet. 

 

As far as TY not being the 3rd best WR on any team -- I think you could send him to Denver today and make a good case that D. Thomas and E Sanders are as good or better than him, last year I think Detroit could make an argument that he'd have been 3rd to Golden Tate and Megatron, and there are several other teams where TY would be the #2 or 3 (Baltimore with Steve Smith and Mike Wallace, NYJ with B. Marshall and Decker, Tampa Bay with Mike Evan and Vincent Jackson, etc...).

 

Don't get me wrong -- I really like TY.  I just think you're off when you say he is going to be our 'unquestioned #1' 'for a long time.'   Moncrief already showed he was closing in quickly last year.  TY is a very good player, I just don't think it is anywhere near safe to assume he's going to be our unquestioned #1 for a long time to come -- as he only had 5 more receptions than Moncrief just a year ago, especially considering Moncrief is bigger and just as fast and has more room to improve/grow.

You should just say you don't think TY is a #1 because of his height.  Because the criteria you used  does not apply to the name you mentioned.

 

Megtron only had 4 seasons with more than 82 receptions and none until his 5th year in the league.

 

Vincent Jackson nor Wallace,  have never had 82 receptions in a season.

 

Decker did it twice with Manning

 

Same with Golden Tate, he didn't do it until his 5th year in the league

 

DT didn't do it until he had one of the best QBs to ever play the game throwing to him.

 

Mike Evans is showing all signs of being really good but he has not surpassed 82 receptions in his 1st two years.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

I actually don't agree with most of that. Sure he has better chemistry, he's played more than twice as many games with Luck. But route running and hands are a wash. There's a misconception about Moncrief that he's a lesser route runner or has inconsistent hands, but none of that is true.

 

Did you see the catch Hilton made after being rocked by tj ward?

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24 minutes ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I have been comparing the Dorsett pick to Reggie Wayne since day 1.  Dorsett (pick 29) and Wayne (pick 30), both come from Miami and both were drafted when many fans thought we had much bigger needs than WR in the first round.  Neither had a spectacular rookie year (Dorsett with 18 catches, 225 yards, 1 TD and Wayne with 27 catches, 345 yards, and 0 TDs), and many were still questioning the pick after a year.

 

Fast-forward to the end of Wayne's career and I don't think any Colts' fan is upset that he was picked -- he put in a HOF career after a slow start and is pretty much ubiquitously an All-Time Colt favorite for everyone.  I have the same type of optimism with Dorsett -- and agree with you that it will just be another year or 2 before everyone who bashed the pick will start talking about it as a great move.

 

 

I think there is still major questions about TY being a true number 1 WR in this league.  I like TY a lot, as a person and a player.  I very much respect what he's done on the field and off it.  That said, I think there is still an argument to be made about him that he isn't a true #1 (I'd say guys like Julio Jones, DeAndre Hopkins, MegaTron, Larry Fitz all fit that bill with a few others -- TY is kind of knocking on that door, but I don't think he is there -- in 4 seasons he has surpassed 80 receptions 2x and has never had more than 85 receptions, and I think he's only shown in spurts that he can handle all the attention on him, he seems to struggle more often than not when teams are doubling him or shifting their D to make him the primary focus).  

 

Even this past season, Moncrief had 64 receptions to TYs 69 (TY had almost 400 yards more, but he was also used differently than Moncrief).  Moncrief has very good size and speed and showed tremendous improvements with his hands, discipline and route-running between year 1 and 2, and I expect him to keep it up.  Then Dorsett, IMO (like Superman said) has more physical abilities, being a little bit faster and more agile than TY.

 

I don't think we're going to have an 'unquestioned #1' this season, to be honest.  I think our offense should vary from week to week, based on what the defense is showing us.  There will be, IMO, weeks when different WRs have huge games and weeks when some of them are pretty quiet. 

 

As far as TY not being the 3rd best WR on any team -- I think you could send him to Denver today and make a good case that D. Thomas and E Sanders are as good or better than him, last year I think Detroit could make an argument that he'd have been 3rd to Golden Tate and Megatron, and there are several other teams where TY would be the #2 or 3 (Baltimore with Steve Smith and Mike Wallace, NYJ with B. Marshall and Decker, Tampa Bay with Mike Evan and Vincent Jackson, etc...).

 

Don't get me wrong -- I really like TY.  I just think you're off when you say he is going to be our 'unquestioned #1' 'for a long time.'   Moncrief already showed he was closing in quickly last year.  TY is a very good player, I just don't think it is anywhere near safe to assume he's going to be our unquestioned #1 for a long time to come -- as he only had 5 more receptions than Moncrief just a year ago, especially considering Moncrief is bigger and just as fast and has more room to improve/grow.

 

Why does his size matters? Harrison was basically the same build. Are you gonna tell me Harrison wasn't a one? If you produce like a one then you are a one

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2 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

You should just say you don't think TY is a #1 because of his height.  Because the criteria you used  does not apply to the name you mentioned.

 

Megtron only had 4 seasons with more than 82 receptions and none until his 5th year in the league.

 

Vincent Jackson nor Wallace,  have never had 82 receptions in a season.

 

Decker did it twice with Manning

 

Same with Golden Tate, he didn't do it until his 5th year in the league

 

DT didn't do it until he had one of the best QBs to ever play the game throwing to him.

 

Mike Evans is showing all signs of being really good but he has not surpassed 82 receptions in his 1st two years.

 

 

I didn't say Vincent Jackson, Wallace, Decker, Tate, DT, or Mike Evans were #1 WRs.  Megatron is the only one I mentioned of the group you pick out as who I consider a true #1 -- and I don't think there is even an argument that TY demanded as much attention or was a good of a WR when both were healthy (MegaTron just retired in part because he was not healthy a lot of his career).

 

The only thing I said about Jackson, Wallace, Decker, Tate, DT, or Mike Evans in regard to TY was that if TY went over to play for teams which they play for (due to the other WR already on that team), TY might see himself as 2nd or 3rd on the depth chart.  This was in response to CR91 saying no way would TY be the 3rd best on any team in the league....... my argument was if he went to a team with Brandon Marshall and Eric Decker already on it, there is a chance that TY would be the #3 WR -- or if he went to a team with Vincent Jackson and Mike Evans already on it, there is a chance TY would be the #3 WR, or if he went to a team with Demaryius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders already on it, TY might be the #3 WR, or a team with Megatron and Golden Tate, TY might be #3, etc.

 

TY was obviously behind RW in his rookie year and year two until RW got hurt.  TY showed glimpses of being pretty darn good when he was the primary threat late in his 2nd and 3rd year and a bit in his 4th year.  That said, he hasn't consistently shown he is an 'unquestionable #1' for any significant amount of time in the NFL.

 

I think TY falls into the category as the guys you mentioned (who I didn't mention to be #1s), that being a very good WR but not an 'unquestioned #1' 'for a long time' in this league, as CR91 suggested he is and will continue being.  Again, this isn't me bashing TY, it was just my response to CR91 -- in summary, I think Moncrief is already knocking on TY's door to supplant him as #1 or to make them #1a and #1b (i.e., TY is not the 'unquestioned #1'), and Dorsett has the physical skills to challenge TY as he continues his development.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

Why does his size matters? Harrison was basically the same build. Are you gonna tell me Harrison wasn't a one? If you produce like a one then you are a one

 

Where do I ever say that he isn't a #1 because of his size?  I say Moncrief is closing in on him, as in his second year Moncrief is very near his reception total and Moncrief is just as fast and bigger than TY (I didn't say TY isn't a #1 because he isn't big, I said Moncrief is closing in on him, and if you're using height as a metric to break a tie, Moncrief is bigger with similar athletic ability).

 

And no, I'm not going to tell you Harrison wasn't a #1.  Harrison produced like a #1, TY hasn't always done so.

 

Harrison faced double and triple coverage and consistently thrived in it for a very good portion of his career.  TY has shown spurts, but more often than not, he has shown he struggles when he is the focal point of the opposing secondary.

 

TY was 37th in the league last year with 69 receptions, TY was 21st in the league in 2014 with 82 receptions, TY was 19th in the league in 2013 with 82 receptions and he was not in the top 50 in the league as a rookie.  He has finished only once (2014, in top 10 for yards, and never in the top 5).  To me, those are not "Unquestioned #1" stats, especially if you want to compare him to Marvin.

 

In terms of receptions, Marvin was 27th in the league as a rookie, 14th in year 2, 40th in year 3, then was 2nd in year 4, 1st in year 5, 3rd in year 6, 1st in year 7, and never again below 15th for the remainder of his career (pre-injury).  Marvin led the league in reception yards in his 4th year

 

So yea, in his first 4 years (especially the 4th year) Marvin was putting up better numbers than TY in comparison to the rest of the league.  Marvin was a much more polished route-runner than TY (Marv may be the best route-runner ever) and had better hands than TY.  He also had similar speed and greater quickness than TY.   Marvin also started showing by year 4 that he could consistently beat defenses when he was the main focal point, TY still hasn't done so.  Marvin also never really had a wingman until his 7th or 8th year in the league (as Reggie didn't really start producing until his 3rd or 4th year) -- TY has had a pretty solid WR to take heat off him for over 50% of his young career (Reggie in the first 1.5 years, and Moncrief last year -- year 3 was really the only year he didn't have a serious threat alongside him).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, CR91 said:

 

Why does his size matters? Harrison was basically the same build. Are you gonna tell me Harrison wasn't a one? If you produce like a one then you are a one

 

Size typically matters because at Hilton's size (5'9" 180) it's easier to knock them off their desired route at the line of scrimmage.       Also,  guys like that typically don't want to spend too much time in the middle of the field where they could get blasted by a linebacker or safety.      So, they spend more time on the perimeter of the field.

 

That's not true in 100% of the cases,  but in the vast majority it is.

 

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2 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

All of that is true,  but all of that is true --- today.

 

Doesn't mean it will always be this way.  

 

Once upon a time,  Luck had more chemistry with Reggie Wayne.     Hilton was learning his craft.

 

Now, Luck and Hilton are the top team.     Doesn't mean Moncrief won't run better routes,  develop better hands and find more chemistry with Luck.      Things are always fluid.     Expect a much better year from Moncrief, (and Hilton too, for that matter!)

 

 

 

 

Dopey me....    when I added Hilton, I also meant to add Dorsett as well.

 

He should enjoy a very good year this year.

 

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11 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

1 hour ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

Where do I ever say that he isn't a #1 because of his size?  I say Moncrief is closing in on him, as in his second year Moncrief is very near his reception total and Moncrief is just as fast and bigger than TY (I didn't say TY isn't a #1 because he isn't big, I said Moncrief is closing in on him, and if you're using height as a metric to break a tie, Moncrief is bigger with similar athletic ability).

 

And no, I'm not going to tell you Harrison wasn't a #1.  Harrison produced like a #1, TY hasn't always done so.

 

Harrison faced double and triple coverage and consistently thrived in it for a very good portion of his career.  TY has shown spurts, but more often than not, he has shown he struggles when he is the focal point of the opposing secondary.

 

TY was 37th in the league last year with 69 receptions, TY was 21st in the league in 2014 with 82 receptions, TY was 19th in the league in 2013 with 82 receptions and he was not in the top 50 in the league as a rookie.  He has finished only once (2014, in top 10 for yards, and never in the top 5).  To me, those are not "Unquestioned #1" stats, especially if you want to compare him to Marvin.

 

In terms of receptions, Marvin was 27th in the league as a rookie, 14th in year 2, 40th in year 3, then was 2nd in year 4, 1st in year 5, 3rd in year 6, 1st in year 7, and never again below 15th for the remainder of his career (pre-injury).  Marvin led the league in reception yards in his 4th year

 

So yea, in his first 4 years (especially the 4th year) Marvin was putting up better numbers than TY in comparison to the rest of the league.  Marvin was a much more polished route-runner than TY (Marv may be the best route-runner ever) and had better hands than TY.  He also had similar speed and greater quickness than TY.   Marvin also started showing by year 4 that he could consistently beat defenses when he was the main focal point, TY still hasn't done so.  Marvin also never really had a wingman until his 7th or 8th year in the league (as Reggie didn't really start producing until his 3rd or 4th year) -- TY has had a pretty solid WR to take heat off him for over 50% of his young career (Reggie in the first 1.5 years, and Moncrief last year -- year 3 was really the only year he didn't have a serious threat alongside him).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I wasn't comparing him to marv. I was comparing their size. you mentioned guys like fitz and jones and their big WRs thats where I was coming from. and don't forget hilton missing the last two games in 2014 so he could have put up much better numbers

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5 hours ago, jskinnz said:

 

Personally I think all the talk about the waste of a draft pick that Dorsett was last year will be quickly forgotten this season.  

Dorsett has Antonio Brown potential. When he shows it the Colts will look very smart.

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54 minutes ago, CR91 said:

 

I wasn't comparing him to marv. I was comparing their size. you mentioned guys like fitz and jones and their big WRs thats where I was coming from. and don't forget hilton missing the last two games in 2014 so he could have put up much better numbers

 

I mentioned guys like Fitz and Jones because they are dominating their position regardless of them having been the primary focus of most secondaries for many years.  Their size probably doesn't hurt.  TY hasn't put up nearly the numbers of them, and hasn't shown with consistency (he has shown in spurts) that he can handle being doubled or schemed against week in and week out.  He has consistently performed best when he has someone on the field who can take some pressure off him. 

 

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Just now, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I mentioned guys like Fitz and Jones because they are dominating their position regardless of them having been the primary focus of most secondaries for many years.  Their size probably doesn't hurt.  TY hasn't put up nearly the numbers of them, and hasn't shown with consistency (he has shown in spurts) that he can handle being doubled or schemed against week in and week out.  He has consistently performed best when he has someone on the field who can take some pressure off him. 

 

 

can you explain to me how hilton has been inconsistent? he's had three straight years of 1000 yards and two straight pro bowls

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1 minute ago, CR91 said:

 

can you explain to me how hilton has been inconsistent? he's had three straight years of 1000 yards and two straight pro bowls

 

He isn't consistently putting up the numbers of an 'unquestioned #1' WR, nor one who is going to be an unquestioned #1 'for a long time', as you suggest.  This isn't even a question -- in his 2nd year, the 'raw' Moncrief almost matched TY in receptions, and there are a slew of players from other teams who are consistently putting up greater numbers than TY.

 

He was a replacement player last year, after Larry Fitz opted out.  There were 14 WRs last year who had more yards than TY and >20 who had more receptions.  TY is a pretty popular guy in the NFL due to his personality and his TD dance, but based on numbers/production he didn't deserve the pro-bowl last year.

 

He isn't even consistently in the top 20 in terms of receptions per year or in top 10 per yardage.

 

Now, to get back to my quote and your misinterpretation -- I said he isn't consistently performing like a number 1 or is not consistently showing he can handle being doubled or schemed against week in and week out.  Marvin, when he was the clear go-to WR on this team and was facing double teams, safety help, sometimes triple teams (in an era where you could rough the WR up more) went out and caught 143 balls one year (and over 100 multiple other times).  TY is putting up great numbers some weeks and getting totally shut out (or pretty much made into a non-factor) in other weeks.... look through his game logs across his career, there is no denying this.

 

As I've said since my first response, I like TY, I think he's a very good WR.  However, he is not like you say an 'unquestioned #1' who will remain so 'for a long time.'  It is already clear that he has another WR on the team who is very close to matching his production.  It is also very clear that TY is not performing as consistently (on a week in, week out basis) as other guys in the league who I mentioned as those who I consider to be true #1's.  I did not say anywhere that TY hasn't put up over 1,000 yards 3 straight times, all I said is he isn't showing on a week in/week out basis that he can handle being a true #1.  I also pointed out, pretty clearly, that there are many teams in this league where TY wouldn't be a #1 WR and in some cases may be demoted to the #3 WR.

 

If you want to continue arguing, please don't take what I say out of context.

 

 

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I find labels like "shutdown corner" and "#1 reciever" are entirely meaningless. There is not really a consensus on what makes either one. To me, you are either productive at your position or not. TY has been particularly productive. I feel that Moncrief will be aswell.

 

Also, Colts recievers are expected to play X, Y, and Z.

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4 minutes ago, backshoulderfade said:

I find labels like "shutdown corner" and "#1 reciever" are entirely meaningless. There is not really a consensus on what makes either one. To me, you are either productive at your position or not. TY has been particularly productive. I feel that Moncrief will be aswell.

 

Also, Colts recievers are expected to play X, Y, and Z.

 

I think there are certainly a handful (a small handfull) of DBs who are 'shutdown' -- Deion Sanders, Derrell Revis being the only 2 that immediately come to mind -- these guys weren't even routinely in the huddle, they were just stalking their WR and on him.... this is a label which has merit but only few and far between.

 

Then there are #1 WRs --- guys who are consistently reeling in >80 receptions per year when they have very few, if any other productive WRs on their team.  These are guys that are demanding double teams and scheme adjustments particularly towards them and are still beating them consistently.

 

In our case, I don't think we have a 'true #1 WR' -- instead, like you say we've got 3 guys who are expected to play their role.  Some weeks, depending on the game plan and what the opponent's defense shows, we will see TY step up and have a huge day, while Moncrief may not  put up huge numbers while other weeks we'll likely see Moncrief or Dorsett putting up big numbers and TY not lighting the stat-sheet on fire.

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20 minutes ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

He isn't consistently putting up the numbers of an 'unquestioned #1' WR, nor one who is going to be an unquestioned #1 'for a long time', as you suggest.  This isn't even a question -- in his 2nd year, the 'raw' Moncrief almost matched TY in receptions, and there are a slew of players from other teams who are consistently putting up greater numbers than TY.

 

He was a replacement player last year, after Larry Fitz opted out.  There were 14 WRs last year who had more yards than TY and >20 who had more receptions.  TY is a pretty popular guy in the NFL due to his personality and his TD dance, but based on numbers/production he didn't deserve the pro-bowl last year.

 

He isn't even consistently in the top 20 in terms of receptions per year or in top 10 per yardage.

 

Now, to get back to my quote and your misinterpretation -- I said he isn't consistently performing like a number 1 or is not consistently showing he can handle being doubled or schemed against week in and week out.  Marvin, when he was the clear go-to WR on this team and was facing double teams, safety help, sometimes triple teams (in an era where you could rough the WR up more) went out and caught 143 balls one year (and over 100 multiple other times).  TY is putting up great numbers some weeks and getting totally shut out (or pretty much made into a non-factor) in other weeks.... look through his game logs across his career, there is no denying this.

 

As I've said since my first response, I like TY, I think he's a very good WR.  However, he is not like you say an 'unquestioned #1' who will remain so 'for a long time.'  It is already clear that he has another WR on the team who is very close to matching his production.  It is also very clear that TY is not performing as consistently (on a week in, week out basis) as other guys in the league who I mentioned as those who I consider to be true #1's.  I did not say anywhere that TY hasn't put up over 1,000 yards 3 straight times, all I said is he isn't showing on a week in/week out basis that he can handle being a true #1.  I also pointed out, pretty clearly, that there are many teams in this league where TY wouldn't be a #1 WR and in some cases may be demoted to the #3 WR.

 

If you want to continue arguing, please don't take what I say out of context.

 

 

 

you do realize last year in played with 5 different qbs right? even brown when big ben got hurt wasnt that productive. for ty to still put up 1000 yards is impressive by itself.

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1 hour ago, CR91 said:

 

you do realize last year in played with 5 different qbs right? even brown when big ben got hurt wasnt that productive. for ty to still put up 1000 yards is impressive by itself.

 

That's fine - he still has done nothing to suggest he is an 'unquestioned #1' in this league.  His rookie year he was #2, by a long-shot.  His 2nd year, he was #2 for the first half of the season until Reggie got hurt -- he put up pretty good numbers, but was largely inconsistent from game-to-game.  For example, he had 20 yards one week, followed by 124 yards, followed by 13 yards.  The game Reggie got hurt he had 27 yards, the first two games he was our '#1' he had 121 yards and 130 yards, followed by performances of 44, 38, 46 and 7 yards when teams started focusing in on him..... his week 17 performance, which was undoubtedly an anomaly for the season, with 11 catches for 155 yards against Jacksonville (a junk game), went on to skew his numbers for the season and is the only reason he finished over 1,000 yards or over 80 receptions.

 

His 3rd year, the only year where he didn't have a real weapon next to him for at least half the season, he was a little more consistent with his production, but is still more of a player who has very big games and then mediocre or below average games.... it's just not very consistent (he played 15 games, I'll subtract the last game since he had 0 receptions on 3 targets and pretend like he only played 14 games -- that said he averaged over 96 yards per game.... but if you actually look at the numbers, more than half the games he has 80 yards or less.  Against the Patriots, who game-planned to stop him, he had 3 catches for 24 yards -- hardly the numbers you'd expect an 'unquestioned #1' to put up versus your biggest rival.

 

I haven't brought this up yet, but TY has had 7 TDs, 5 TDs, 7 TDs, and 5TDs (he has never been in the top 20 in reception TDs)..  These are also not numbers you want to see from your 'unquestioned #1'.  Marvin started his career with 8, 6, 7, and 12 then went on to string together 7 more years of 10 or > TDs. 

 

TY probably deserves credit or an excuse that his numbers weren't great last year because of our QB situation -- but it's not like he's proven himself to be a bonafide #1 WR in this league on a consistent basis at any point prior.  Sure he has had some monster games, but he has also had some total duds when he's schemed against -- in a bonafide #1 you never want to see duds -- you want to see above-average games and great games, TY has given us some great games, a lot of average games, and some total duds.

 

Again, I like TY.  I think TY is a good WR and I'm very glad he is on our team.  He is a team player, he's got a positive attitude, seems like a very good person, and is fun to watch.  However, you made the argument he is an 'unquestioned #1' and will be 'for a long time.'  No matter how you slice it, dice it, analyze it, or whatever else you may want to do -- you are wrong.  TY has shown he's a good WR in this league, and I have never made the argument that he doesn't have ability to continue improving -- but the pure fact of the matter is, TY has not done anything to suggest he can consistently put up the numbers that bonafide #1 WRs in this league put up (and he's played in a very pass happy offense), and last year is proof that a guy who has been criticized as being very raw is already closing in on matching his production -- TY may continue to improve, but so will Moncrief, further making your argument that TY will unquestionably be our #1 WR for a long time wrong.

 

 

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Wow, this article is insanely detailed! Can you imagine if this guy's boss came up to him and said, "Hey, Matt, write me an article on Moncrief." He's like, "Sure thing, boss!" Then Matt hands him this article and the boss is like, "Damnit Matt, I can't understand a single thing this says! People aren't going to read this! Put Kim Kardashian in it!"

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19 hours ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

That's fine - he still has done nothing to suggest he is an 'unquestioned #1' in this league.  His rookie year he was #2, by a long-shot.  His 2nd year, he was #2 for the first half of the season until Reggie got hurt -- he put up pretty good numbers, but was largely inconsistent from game-to-game.  For example, he had 20 yards one week, followed by 124 yards, followed by 13 yards.  The game Reggie got hurt he had 27 yards, the first two games he was our '#1' he had 121 yards and 130 yards, followed by performances of 44, 38, 46 and 7 yards when teams started focusing in on him..... his week 17 performance, which was undoubtedly an anomaly for the season, with 11 catches for 155 yards against Jacksonville (a junk game), went on to skew his numbers for the season and is the only reason he finished over 1,000 yards or over 80 receptions.

 

His 3rd year, the only year where he didn't have a real weapon next to him for at least half the season, he was a little more consistent with his production, but is still more of a player who has very big games and then mediocre or below average games.... it's just not very consistent (he played 15 games, I'll subtract the last game since he had 0 receptions on 3 targets and pretend like he only played 14 games -- that said he averaged over 96 yards per game.... but if you actually look at the numbers, more than half the games he has 80 yards or less.  Against the Patriots, who game-planned to stop him, he had 3 catches for 24 yards -- hardly the numbers you'd expect an 'unquestioned #1' to put up versus your biggest rival.

 

I haven't brought this up yet, but TY has had 7 TDs, 5 TDs, 7 TDs, and 5TDs (he has never been in the top 20 in reception TDs)..  These are also not numbers you want to see from your 'unquestioned #1'.  Marvin started his career with 8, 6, 7, and 12 then went on to string together 7 more years of 10 or > TDs. 

 

TY probably deserves credit or an excuse that his numbers weren't great last year because of our QB situation -- but it's not like he's proven himself to be a bonafide #1 WR in this league on a consistent basis at any point prior.  Sure he has had some monster games, but he has also had some total duds when he's schemed against -- in a bonafide #1 you never want to see duds -- you want to see above-average games and great games, TY has given us some great games, a lot of average games, and some total duds.

 

Again, I like TY.  I think TY is a good WR and I'm very glad he is on our team.  He is a team player, he's got a positive attitude, seems like a very good person, and is fun to watch.  However, you made the argument he is an 'unquestioned #1' and will be 'for a long time.'  No matter how you slice it, dice it, analyze it, or whatever else you may want to do -- you are wrong.  TY has shown he's a good WR in this league, and I have never made the argument that he doesn't have ability to continue improving -- but the pure fact of the matter is, TY has not done anything to suggest he can consistently put up the numbers that bonafide #1 WRs in this league put up (and he's played in a very pass happy offense), and last year is proof that a guy who has been criticized as being very raw is already closing in on matching his production -- TY may continue to improve, but so will Moncrief, further making your argument that TY will unquestionably be our #1 WR for a long time wrong.

 

 

 

so your argument is t.y doesn't put up the numbers of a number one then you state moncrief has matched his production. name me number two wrs that have put up hilton's numbers. show me stats of moncrief's 1000 yard season.

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22 hours ago, ColtsFanMikeC said:

 

I think there are certainly a handful (a small handfull) of DBs who are 'shutdown' -- Deion Sanders, Derrell Revis being the only 2 that immediately come to mind -- these guys weren't even routinely in the huddle, they were just stalking their WR and on him.... this is a label which has merit but only few and far between.

 

Then there are #1 WRs --- guys who are consistently reeling in >80 receptions per year when they have very few, if any other productive WRs on their team.  These are guys that are demanding double teams and scheme adjustments particularly towards them and are still beating them consistently.

 

In our case, I don't think we have a 'true #1 WR' -- instead, like you say we've got 3 guys who are expected to play their role.  Some weeks, depending on the game plan and what the opponent's defense shows, we will see TY step up and have a huge day, while Moncrief may not  put up huge numbers while other weeks we'll likely see Moncrief or Dorsett putting up big numbers and TY not lighting the stat-sheet on fire.

Antonio Brown- 4 games under 50 yards 

Mike Evans- 4 games under 50 yards

Deandre Hopkins- 3 games under 50 yds 

Larry Fitzgerald- 5 games under 50 yards 

Brandon Marshall- 3 games under 50 yds

 

Every WR gets shut down from time to time. TY is no exception. I think he has more than proven that he is a number 1 WR. 

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On 7/11/2016 at 2:58 PM, CR91 said:

 

Did you see the catch Hilton made after being rocked by tj ward?

 

You know I did. What does that one play have to do with whether he has better hands than someone else? I'm not knocking Hilton's hands, just saying I don't believe he has better hands than Moncrief. At least I don't think that's been demonstrated to this point.

 

Hilton's catch rate last season was 51.5%, Moncrief's was 61%. It's not like he's doing less with his targets. 

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23 hours ago, Defjamz26 said:

Dorsett has Antonio Brown potential. When he shows it the Colts will look very smart.

 

IF. If he shows it.

 

But I do mostly agree. Brown has elite quickness and twitch that I'm not sure Dorsett has, not to mention the technical ability that comes with time. But Dorsett has a top end that Brown doesn't, and he has a good frame, despite his height. 

 

Antonio Brown has gone from being a second fiddle afterthought that everyone believed the Steelers were overpaying when they chose him over Mike Wallace, to being the most productive receiver in the NFL. I'm not holding my breath waiting for Dorsett to become Antonio Brown. But I do think he can be a majorly productive player and a scary match up problem for defenses. 

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On 7/11/2016 at 2:01 PM, RockThatBlue said:

Fair points. TY is definitely awesome, I just think Moncrief has a high ceiling and can be the best WR on the team. 

 

Can't wait to see how it plays out. 

 

Agreed. I have a long history of being a Hilton fan, from before the Colts drafted him. But I think Moncrief can do a couple things Hilton can't.

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1 hour ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. I have a long history of being a Hilton fan, from before the Colts drafted him. But I think Moncrief can do a couple things Hilton can't.

I dont think Moncrief gets the credit for being a pretty good blocker (as a lot of WRs probably dont). He never seems afraid to engage contact with a defender. He seems to do a pretty decent job at it too.  

 

What current WR do you think Moncrief can be like? 

 

#FeedMoncrief

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10 hours ago, Superman said:

 

Agreed. I have a long history of being a Hilton fan, from before the Colts drafted him. But I think Moncrief can do a couple things Hilton can't.

My prediction when the Colts drafted Moncrief was that he'd eventually be the number 1 receiver. I still believe that to be true. So I'm in the same boat. Love Hilton but Moncrief has a different type of potential.

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13 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

I dont think Moncrief gets the credit for being a pretty good blocker (as a lot of WRs probably dont). He never seems afraid to engage contact with a defender. He seems to do a pretty decent job at it too.  

 

What current WR do you think Moncrief can be like? 

 

#FeedMoncrief

 

Julio Jones. Basically the same size and build, very similar athletic profile and test results, similar college production. There's a top tier of athleticism among WR prospects, measured in a metric called Explosiveness Index. Alone at the top, all time, is Calvin Johnson. Other elite guys are Julio Jones, Vincent Jackson, Andre Johnson, Chris Chambers, etc. It's not an indication of success, as guys like Stephen Hill and Justin Hunter also rate highly. Anyways, the point is that Moncrief is near the top of that index, well short of Calvin Johnson, but in the discussion with the others. By far the highest rated guy in the 2014 draft. 

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/articles/cfb/46395/349/donte-moncrief-metric-allstar

 

Julio was obviously a better prospect and had better college film, which is why he was the 6th pick and Moncrief was a third rounder. But Moncrief has the same tools, and at this point in their careers Moncrief might be ahead of Julio's pace as a technician.

 

Moncrief's college tape had some holes, and the biggest question was whether he would consistently use his insane range to beat defenders, highpointing the ball, catching away from his body, etc. There are plays in college where he was beat to balls by smaller, slower DBs, mostly because he didn't have the "go get it" attitude, or didn't know how to go get it. He's gotten much better at all of that, including stacking defenders and attacking the ball. If he can keep improving, I think he can be one of those top shelf guys.

 

This is obviously a very optimistic comparison. I don't expect Moncrief to be an 1,800 yard / 130 catch player like Julio, not unless Hilton is hurt (knock on wood). 

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