Is luck's value being diminished?

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 hour ago, southwest1 said:

Exactly, both Bogie & Jules tend to endure unnecessary backlash here on the forum more than they should IMO. They are wicked smart, very knowledgable about the history of football spanning several decades, have tremendous tastes in music, hysterically funny, & just good salt of the earth individuals. 

 

I feel bad for Bogie sometimes because some members perceive him as the anti-christ with opinions that go against the norm, but he's really a sharp & decent guy IMO. Jules always makes me laugh. I like people with sarcastic personalties I guess.

 

Yes, 18 was vital in that San Diego game & Pittsburgh too. Peyton did have shining moments this yr. 

 

It's all good man. You've got your own style too. Hades, for the 2 weeks before the SB, it felt like you & I were the only ones who didn't automatically think Denver was gonna curl into a ball & die against Carolina. LOL! I know we weren't of course, but it was funny watching all these pundits pretend that they rooted for the Broncos all along. W-H-A-T-E-V-E-R...

I hear ya, sometimes I felt like I was on a desert island along with you and just a few others preaching that the Broncos would win it all the 2 weeks leading up to the SB. I also found myself very frustrated with a some Posters that couldn't comprehend how important it was for Peyton to play instead of Osweiler going into the Playoffs. It's just opinion but I am almost sure that Tom Brady wouldn't lose to Osweiler in a Championship Game. I think Osweiler would've been shaky/scared and Turnover happy playing that Dynasty proven type team. Regarding Bogie, he seems to dislike Peyton so obviously with this being a Colts Website not many people care for that. I didn't at first until I started to chat with him more and realized that the guy is on my level when it comes to sports knowledge. Jules friended me my first few days here so her and I have always had good chats.

[CR91]

3 hours ago, zibby43 said:

 

Let's not diminish Wilson's value.  In the last few years, Wilson has become a major cog of the Seattle offense.  

 

Last year, RW had a 68.1% completion percentage.  He threw for 4,024 yards, 34 TDs, with only 8 INTs.  He had a 110.1 QB rating.

 

Yeah, Wilson has a great defense to back him up, and a better running game than the Colts, but Seattle still aired it out plenty last year, and Wilson put up some pretty amazing numbers in the process.

 

So while I agree that Luck has been forgotten a bit because of his rough season last year, guys like Newton and Wilson have proven they are stud QBs, too. 

 

 

 

Wilson had the best defense and arguably the best running back for basically his entire career. Luck never had either. If you wanna bring up luck has had better weapons fine he has, however Wilson had Percy harvin at one point and now has Jimmy Graham so not exactly bad weapons. Wilson is a great talent, but he's never had to carry his team like luck has had to for his career.

[theanarchist]

21 hours ago, Ollonesomeme said:

I do not think that Luck has ever been as highly valued across the NFL as he is here. Perhaps that is how it should be. I have never ranked Luck in the top ten QBs in the league and I certainly don't now. He is coming off of a separation of his throwing shoulder. It might be mid season or longer before we see what we really have now. Who are the ten QBs that I have ahead of him? This is for this season only and there is no order to the list.

 

Rodgers

Big Ben

Eli Manning

Brees

Brady

Rivers

Matt Ryan from Atlanta

Flaco

Wilson

Newton

 

I would not argue with anyone who have Winston And Mariota ahead of based on rookie contracts and potential. This could all change quickly if Luck comes out and is obviously 100%. I do not see him being rated ahead of any of the SB QBs even then. Just my feet are on the ground opinion. I see lots of flaws in his game. I saw where someone said he is a slow thinker. Not in real life, of course but in football thinking it might be about right. I do not see him ever being in Peyton's or any of the best 5 QBs in that catagory.

YOU may rank all those ahead of Luck but I don't think most people would. Rodgers, Brady, Brees and Ben and then all the rest are subject to criticism. Eli has had his up and down issues. What exactly has Matt Ryan, and Rivers done that are so great? I still scratch my head when I hear people praising Rivers.

[Ollonesomeme]

On July 7, 2016 at 2:48 AM, RockThatBlue said:

Newton is good, but he is absolutely not better than a 100% healthy Luck. 

 

You say some real ridiculous stuff about Luck. I don't know if you're just a hater of Luck or what, but I can't recall the last time you said anything positive about him.

I would trade for Newton over luck right now and around the NFL I would not be alone. I think Luck is an above average NFL QB. I do not see him being MVP anytime soon if ever. I think he has serious flaws but that doesn't bother me. The fact that he can't seem to correct those flaws does. Why does it take five years to learn how to slide? Why can't he learn to get the ball out of hands quicker? Why can't he be more accurate? Fix those things just a little and I will be much more positive about him.

[Ollonesomeme]

Just now, Ollonesomeme said:

I would take Newton over luck right now and around the NFL I would not be alone. I think Luck is an above average NFL QB. I do not see him being MVP anytime soon if ever. I think he has serious flaws but that doesn't bother me. The fact that he can't seem to correct those flaws does. Why does it take five years to learn how to slide? Why can't he learn to get the ball out of hands quicker? Why can't he be more accurate? Fix those things just a little and I will be much more positive about him.

 

[Flash]

10 minutes ago, Ollonesomeme said:

I would trade for Newton over luck right now and around the NFL I would not be alone. I think Luck is an above average NFL QB. I do not see him being MVP anytime soon if ever. I think he has serious flaws but that doesn't bother me. The fact that he can't seem to correct those flaws does. Why does it take five years to learn how to slide? Why can't he learn to get the ball out of hands quicker? Why can't he be more accurate? Fix those things just a little and I will be much more positive about him.

I think you might be underestimating what Luck has accomplished in a short period of time, and what his abilities are. I will try to address your questions below:

 

1. The fact that he can't seem to correct those flaws does. Why does it take five years to learn how to slide? He knows how to slide. The problem is that sliding doesn't always get you a first down. Without an effective run game, Luck found himself in many 3rd-and-long situations. Sure, he could slide when out of the pocket, however, in most instances he had to run and dive for the first down. Without that competitive spirit, Luck and the Colts wouldn't have as many wins. Go back to the Packers game in 2012, Dolphins game in 2012,  Raiders game in 2013, or the Broncos game in 2015 etc.. and see how many times he kept drives alive by running and fighting for the first down.

 

2. Why can't he learn to get the ball out of hands quicker? Let's consider that he played with two offensive coordinators -- Bruce Arians and Pep Hamilton -- both of whom liked to air it out with deep, long developing passes. We did see Luck get the ball out quickly in the 1 game he played with Chud as the offensive coordinator. Luck could improve in this area, however, we should place some responsibility on the OCs.

 

3. Why can't he be more accurate? Luck can improve upon his accuracy. I agree with this. My thoughts are that his O-line hasn't afforded him the time to allow for the pass play to develop. When Luck has been afforded time, he has been extremely accurate. As mentioned above, the pass plays are designed for more of a down-field attack, which would reduce the accuracy of any QB. Lastly, a run game would greatly help Luck. At the moment, it's fairly simple to game plan against the Colts. Stop the run early on, and then focus on teeing off on Luck later in the game (because in the Luck era the Colts have usually abandoned the run game in the second half). If however, the Colts have an effective, sustained run game, then Luck's effectiveness and accuracy would greatly increase.

[RockThatBlue]

1 hour ago, Ollonesomeme said:

I would trade for Newton over luck right now and around the NFL I would not be alone. 

 

You just can't be serious.

[crazycolt1]

2 hours ago, Ollonesomeme said:

I would trade for Newton over luck right now and around the NFL I would not be alone. I think Luck is an above average NFL QB. I do not see him being MVP anytime soon if ever. I think he has serious flaws but that doesn't bother me. The fact that he can't seem to correct those flaws does. Why does it take five years to learn how to slide? Why can't he learn to get the ball out of hands quicker? Why can't he be more accurate? Fix those things just a little and I will be much more positive about him.

At least he faces his problems instead of pouting like a child when he loses. Luck didn't have the luxury of joining a team that was as good as Newton. The thing is these are Colt fans in here and not your everyday NFL fans. So even bringing up what other NFL might or might not do is a mute issue as far as this forum is concerned. Had Luck been drafted by Seattle or Carolina you would be saying the same thing about who ever the Colts drafted. There, see how that works?

[BOTT]

No

[Ollonesomeme]

19 hours ago, RockThatBlue said:

 

You just can't be serious.

Trade Luck for Newton right now, you bet I am serious. We get the current MVP who goy to the SB last year. I would pull that trigger in a second. Carolina would not make that trade even if you tossed in a first round draft pick. Cam has never had the offensive weapons Luck has had from the start. They have built a very good defense around him. If you make that trade, the Colts are greatly improved on day one. The Panthers take a step back. Make no mistake about it, Cam was the deserving MVP because HE led that team to the SB. I do understand all of the love for Luck on this board and I share much of it but I hope I can still see the flaws and recognize just how good some other players are. This will be the argument of this era. I don't think some folks here would pick Newton if he wins two SBs and two more MVPs. He could do that if he stays healthy. I will be cheering and rooting for Andrew just like all of you.

 

 

[2006Coltsbestever]

11 minutes ago, Ollonesomeme said:

Trade Luck for Newton right now, you bet I am serious. We get the current MVP who goy to the SB last year. I would pull that trigger in a second. Carolina would not make that trade even if you tossed in a first round draft pick. Cam has never had the offensive weapons Luck has had from the start. They have built a very good defense around him. If you make that trade, the Colts are greatly improved on day one. The Panthers take a step back. Make no mistake about it, Cam was the deserving MVP because HE led that team to the SB. I do understand all of the love for Luck on this board and I share much of it but I hope I can still see the flaws and recognize just how good some other players are. This will be the argument of this era. I don't think some folks here would pick Newton if he wins two SBs and two more MVPs. He could do that if he stays healthy. I will be cheering and rooting for Andrew just like all of you.

 

 

I'll make a wager with you right now that Andrew has a better season statistically over Cam regarding more Passing Yards, more Completions, and more TD passes. I will also say Carolina will not go back to the SB. They were a 1 year fluke. If Andrew doesn't win all 3 categories I mentioned I will change my avatar to a Cam Newton avatar for 2 weeks. If Andrew wins those 3 categories your avatar becomes a Luck avatar for 2 weeks. I have to win all 3 major categories to win my bet, so the odds are with you since you think Cam is so much better.

[Ollonesomeme]

18 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

At least he faces his problems instead of pouting like a child when he loses. Luck didn't have the luxury of joining a team that was as good as Newton. The thing is these are Colt fans in here and not your everyday NFL fans. So even bringing up what other NFL might or might not do is a mute issue as far as this forum is concerned. Had Luck been drafted by Seattle or Carolina you would be saying the same thing about who ever the Colts drafted. There, see how that works?

The Colts were one year removed from the playoffs when Luck joined, the Panthers had been terrible for a long time. The Panthers built a good defense but not many skill players for Cam. Cam doesn't like to lose. I don't see anything wrong with that. If those two teams had drafted Luck, they wouldn't have been as good as they have been. With Wilson, it is a matter of fitting in. Cam is just on a higher level than Luck in my opinion. Perhaps Andrew can close that gap but I see Cam improving too. Luck has yet to show me that improvement and he may have regressed a bit but I am willing to blame that in injury for now. This year will show a great deal. I am rooting for Andrew in a big way.

[Ollonesomeme]

2 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I'll make a wager with you right now that Andrew has a better season statistically over Cam regarding more Passing Yards, more Completions, and more TD passes. I will also say Carolina will not go back to the SB. They were a 1 year fluke.

I won't take that bet because Andrew will have better stats. He has to for this team to win. cam doesn't have to throw for 4000 yards and 40 TDs to win and he shouldn't. Luck has far better skill players than Cam. It is hard to get back to the SB but that team was no fluke, I also think that they are much better than our Colts.

[2006Coltsbestever]

4 minutes ago, Ollonesomeme said:

I won't take that bet because Andrew will have better stats. He has to for this team to win. cam doesn't have to throw for 4000 yards and 40 TDs to win and he shouldn't. Luck has far better skill players than Cam. It is hard to get back to the SB but that team was no fluke, I also think that they are much better than our Colts.

I actually even added to my Post. What I don't understand is why you and some others don't put more emphasis on a player having to carry their his team much more. Right there you just admitted he has to do more for his team to win but yet you fault him for not getting to a SB and praise Cam for getting to 1 when he had much more help around him. It was a fluke they went 15-1 to word it better, that will never happen again and I actually don't see them getting back to the SB.

[aaron11]

On 7/6/2016 at 4:04 PM, tikyle said:

And that's not even exploring his fumbling problem.  As far as pure skills mixed with physical traits he's the #1 guy in the NFL IMO.  But his decision making and unwillingness to live to play another down total hamstrings his natural gifts.

wilson has more fumbles, and has never led the league in TDs like luck has.  luck was in the running for most TDs each of his first three seasons, and was on pace to do it again before getting hurt

[BOTT]

2 hours ago, Ollonesomeme said:

Trade Luck for Newton right now, you bet I am serious. We get the current MVP who goy to the SB last year. I would pull that trigger in a second. Carolina would not make that trade even if you tossed in a first round draft pick. Cam has never had the offensive weapons Luck has had from the start. They have built a very good defense around him. If you make that trade, the Colts are greatly improved on day one. The Panthers take a step back. Make no mistake about it, Cam was the deserving MVP because HE led that team to the SB. I do understand all of the love for Luck on this board and I share much of it but I hope I can still see the flaws and recognize just how good some other players are. This will be the argument of this era. I don't think some folks here would pick Newton if he wins two SBs and two more MVPs. He could do that if he stays healthy. I will be cheering and rooting for Andrew just like all of you.

 

 

hopefully you pull that trigger when it's pointed at your head.

[Indianapolis-Colts-Fan]

I think Andrew is getting a bad wrap because A) he spent some significant time injured last year, and what bit he did play, he didn't play lights out. 

 

The media tends to ignore certain facts about certain players or teams to benefit their stories. No views, no business. 

 

Andrew does have a little bit of an issue not sliding at the end of his runs and accepting that the yards he got, are all he needs. Sometimes he will throw a boneheaded interception from our point of view over head, where we can see where everyone is and what all they're doing. In the moment on the ground, you have at least 10 dudes fighting each other in front of you, with possibly a couple more coming in. You have wrs, and corners running. Sometimes in the mix of people, things may seem to be unfolding differently, than they do. Resulting in what seems as boneheaded interceptions. I think this will be cleaned up more this year with a better oline, a little bit wiser of an Andrew luck, and a coaching staff that is there to play to Andrews strengths. Which imo is short to intermediate throws with a few long passes if opportunity presents itself. He also has the best pocket awareness I have ever seen in a QB. 

 

If andrew doesn't let the wrong people get into his head, he will get better and do just fine. 

 

I think we need to also realize that Andrew being the most hit QB year in and year out for 4 years straight is a direct result of a bad oline unit. You can say that Andrew holds the ball too long, but when you become one dimensional and you become predictable, it makes it hard for WRs to get open.  

 

 

[tikyle]

On 7/9/2016 at 11:54 AM, aaron11 said:

wilson has more fumbles, and has never led the league in TDs like luck has.  luck was in the running for most TDs each of his first three seasons, and was on pace to do it again before getting hurt

But Luck has way more total TO than Wilson.  And Luck was on pace to lead the league in TOs for two years in a row.  Luck is totally feast or famine.  I'd rather have a steady guy than a 40 TD and 30 TO guy.

[crazycolt1]

7 minutes ago, tikyle said:

But Luck has way more total TO than Wilson.  And Luck was on pace to lead the league in TOs for two years in a row.  Luck is totally feast or famine.  I'd rather have a steady guy than a 40 TD and 30 TO guy.

Wilson and Luck are two different types of QBs. Luck is on a team where winning is dependent on him. Wilson is on a team where all he has to do is manage the game and the defense will get you wins. Apples and oranges. Wilson also has had Lynch in the past to take pressure off on him. The QB play is dependent on the team around them. Put Wilson on the Colts you wouldn't have the same player as you see in Seattle. Put Luck on Seattle and you may have a couple of super bowl wins?

[2006Coltsbestever]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Wilson and Luck are two different types of QBs. Luck is on a team where winning is dependent on him. Wilson is on a team where all he has to do is manage the game and the defense will get you wins. Apples and oranges. Wilson also has had Lynch in the past to take pressure off on him. The QB play is dependent on the team around them. Put Wilson on the Colts you wouldn't have the same player as you see in Seattle. Put Luck on Seattle and you may have a couple of super bowl wins?

I will follow that up with, I bet if you polled all 32 GM's who would they rather have Andrew, Cam, or Wilson more GM's would say Andrew.

[crazycolt1]

14 minutes ago, tikyle said:

But Luck has way more total TO than Wilson.  And Luck was on pace to lead the league in TOs for two years in a row.  Luck is totally feast or famine.  I'd rather have a steady guy than a 40 TD and 30 TO guy.

If your going to mention Lucks and Wilsons turnovers you failed to mention Wilson may have had the worst turnover in super bowl history.

[tikyle]

5 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Wilson and Luck are two different types of QBs. Luck is on a team where winning is dependent on him. Wilson is on a team where all he has to do is manage the game and the defense will get you wins. Apples and oranges. Wilson also has had Lynch in the past to take pressure off on him. The QB play is dependent on the team around them. Put Wilson on the Colts you wouldn't have the same player as you see in Seattle. Put Luck on Seattle and you may have a couple of super bowl wins?

You really are crazycolt.

 

ESPN already broke those guys down and debunked most of the myths that you are perpetuating in that comment.  They looked at when Rawls was the RB.  They looked at when Rawls even got hurt.  When Wilson went crazy last year that was when he had no RB.  We're not even going to compare what each guy had at receiver.  They looked at when both guys were under pressure.  They looked at when both guys were playing from behind.  All the numbers (except fumbles) came out to favor Wilson.  And Wilson also has just as porous of an OL as Luck.

[tikyle]

5 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

I will follow that up with, I bet if you polled all 32 GM's who would they rather have Andrew, Cam, or Wilson more GM's would say Andrew.

After what Newton just did with no offensive talent around him (outside of Olsen)?  I highly doubt it.

What would lead you to believe that?  At best all three of those QBs resumes are equal.  What could you point to that would lead most GMs to pick Luck over the other two?

[tikyle]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

If your going to mention Lucks and Wilsons turnovers you failed to mention Wilson may have had the worst turnover in super bowl history.

Wilson took Peyton off the hook with that one.

[2006Coltsbestever]

Just now, crazycolt1 said:

If your going to mention Lucks and Wilsons turnovers you failed to mention Wilson may have had the worst turnover in super bowl history.

Yeah it's hilarious how people sweep that ridiculous Turnover under the rug  That is the biggest choke ever in SB history. Dude could've just ran it in and won the game. Instead he played hero ball by throwing a pass he had no business throwing. A lot of people even blame Carroll for that call to deflect blame off of Wilson which is wrong. Wilson had all the power to do whatever he wanted once the play was developing. He could've just thrown the pass away if anything.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, tikyle said:

You really are crazycolt.

 

ESPN already broke those guys down and debunked most of the myths that you are perpetuating in that comment.  They looked at when Rawls was the RB.  They looked at when Rawls even got hurt.  When Wilson went crazy last year that was when he had no RB.  We're not even going to compare what each guy had at receiver.  They looked at when both guys were under pressure.  They looked at when both guys were playing from behind.  All the numbers (except fumbles) came out to favor Wilson.  And Wilson also has just as porous of an OL as Luck.

You are talking about last year when Luck played 6 games and was injured? Now who is crazy? One mistake you failed at was listening to ESPN in the first place.

[crazycolt1]

5 minutes ago, tikyle said:

Wilson took Peyton off the hook with that one.

Why are you even bringing up Manning when you are comparing Luck and Wilson? Another deflection maybe?

[2006Coltsbestever]

6 minutes ago, tikyle said:

After what Newton just did with no offensive talent around him (outside of Olsen)?  I highly doubt it.

What would lead you to believe that?  At best all three of those QBs resumes are equal.  What could you point to that would lead most GMs to pick Luck over the other two?

Andrew's potential is higher IMO and he carries his team more. GM's would clearly see that.

[tikyle]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You are talking about last year when Luck played 6 games and was injured? Now who is crazy? One mistake you failed at was listening to ESPN in the first place.

The last eight games that Wilson played last year he had 25TD and 2INT.  That was all w/o Lynch and with a terribly OL.  Show me any 8 game stretch or even the best 8 games of Lucks career that you can piece together and give me stats like that.  Oh and if you're going to talk about competition those 8 games included 2 games vs ARI, and one game vs PIT, STL and MIN.

[tikyle]

1 minute ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Andrew's potential is higher IMO and he carries his team more. GM's would clearly see that.

He carried his team more than what Newton did last year?  C'mon man.  I love my Colts but that team that Newton dragged to the SB without a #1 receiver and with old washed up RBs.............wow.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, tikyle said:

The last eight games that Wilson played last year he had 25TD and 2INT.  That was all w/o Lynch and with a terribly OL.  Show me any 8 game stretch or even the best 8 games of Lucks career that you can piece together and give me stats like that.  Oh and if you're going to talk about competition those 8 games included 2 games vs ARI, and one game vs PIT, STL and MIN.

If your going to hand pick these stats I can do the same. Where has Wilson set pretty much every record that could be broken for a 3 1/2 year QB? Wilson was drafted on a team that was already set for a super bowl run. Luck was drafted by a 2-14 team with one veteran receiver. Like I said, apples and oranges.

[tikyle]

4 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

Why are you even bringing up Manning when you are comparing Luck and Wilson? Another deflection maybe?

You brought up an INT that if Luck threw you and every other person on this board would have blamed Pep Hamilton or Chuck Pagano for.  And acting like the CB didn't run THROUGH the WR to pick that ball off is laughable.  To say you could see that INT coming is laughable.  To say that wasn't the worse playcall in NFL history is laughable.  But you're saying that play was Wilsons fault?  I have to question your football IQ if you believe that Wilson was to blame for that.

[2006Coltsbestever]

1 minute ago, tikyle said:

He carried his team more than what Newton did last year?  C'mon man.  I love my Colts but that team that Newton dragged to the SB without a #1 receiver and with old washed up RBs.............wow.

Newton had a Great Defense that put him in a lot of great situations. There were games like Thanksgiving at Dallas where Newton's Defense was scoring TD's and won the game quickly. When you have that it makes the game a lot easier.

[crazycolt1]

3 minutes ago, tikyle said:

You brought up an INT that if Luck threw you and every other person on this board would have blamed Pep Hamilton or Chuck Pagano for.  And acting like the CB didn't run THROUGH the WR to pick that ball off is laughable.  To say you could see that INT coming is laughable.  To say that wasn't the worse playcall in NFL history is laughable.  But you're saying that play was Wilsons fault?  I have to question your football IQ if you believe that Wilson was to blame for that.

You are saying the super bowl interception was not Wilsons fault??  My god, he was the QB with the ball in his hand. All the excuses you can think of does not take the ball out of Wilsons hands. It does not change the fact of Wilson not seeing the defense.

[2006Coltsbestever]

3 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You are saying the super bowl interception was not Wilsons fault??  My god, he was the QB with the ball in his hand. All the excuses you can think of does not take the ball out of Wilsons hands. It does not change the fact of Wilson not seeing the defense.

I agree, it was a horrible INT and to blame Carrol is plain ridiculous. Wilson had ball in hand and could've did several things different. I blame Peyton for his INT against the Saints, it was a bad pass, cant sugarcoat it. Peyton had other people open and had other options but panicked but Wilson's was worse considering the Seahawks had the ball at the 1 Yard line with a chance to win.

[tikyle]

Seeing the defense?  Man the CB RAN THROUGH the weak WR to make the pick.  Look at that play over and over from every angle.  You cannot see the DB.  He ran THROUGH a man and picked the ball off.  It was one of the most incredible plays in NFL history.  But you are boiling down to the QB made a bad throw.  Wow.  That's like saying Rodney Harrison misplayed the ball on the helmet catch in the Superbowl vs Eli and the Giants.  SHEESH.

[crazycolt1]

9 minutes ago, tikyle said:

You brought up an INT that if Luck threw you and every other person on this board would have blamed Pep Hamilton or Chuck Pagano for.  And acting like the CB didn't run THROUGH the WR to pick that ball off is laughable.  To say you could see that INT coming is laughable.  To say that wasn't the worse playcall in NFL history is laughable.  But you're saying that play was Wilsons fault?  I have to question your football IQ if you believe that Wilson was to blame for that.

You say the CB ran through the receiver?? No, the CB has the same right to the ball as the receiver. Read the rules.

[tikyle]

2 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

You say the CB ran through the receiver?? No, the CB has the same right to the ball as the receiver. Read the rules.

I didn't say it was a PI.  I said he ran through the man to make the pick.  If you look at the video the WR had the inside and should have made that catch.

[crazycolt1]

1 minute ago, tikyle said:

I didn't say it was a PI.  I said he ran through the man to make the pick.

And who threw the ball without seeing the defender in position to make a pick?

[tikyle]

1 minute ago, crazycolt1 said:

And who threw the ball without seeing the defender in position to make a pick?

And who threw the ball with seeing the receiver in position to make the catch?