Bates as a ILB?

[crazycolt1]

3 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're really going to compare this front office to......   Bill Polian?

 

Seriously?       I don't think so.........

 

For me,  this front office has not earned the trust for me to feel confident that they've judged these players where the team has evaluated them.    

 

As I've been saying in post after post after post after post I hope I'm wrong......    but I fear I'm not.

 

I'll actually be happy if I'm wrong and the front office is right.    Because the team will be doing well if that's what happens.      Nothing would make me happier if the Colts do well.     I don't want to be a fan of a team that struggles to win --- especially with Andrew Luck as it's QB.

 

 

 

One thing you failed to mention is this regime has more wins and made it farther into the playoffs than the Polian regime did after 4 years. It took how many years for the Colts to win a playoff game and make the AFC championship game? And how many years to reach a super bowl? After what Polian did with Buffalo and then with Carolina he did not start out near as well with the Colts. Two super bowls in 13 years is really not that impressive after what he had done with his years before the Colts.

[theanarchist]

10 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I'm not saying the front office is wrong......

 

But they draft a guy who has played on the edge...  DE/OLB....   he's coming in as an OLB.

 

And already they're looking down the road to see if they can move him to ILB?!?      How about they look down the road to see if he can play either the strong side or the weak side on the outside.      That's where he's been,  how about staying focused on there.....

 

I read an article on him pre-draft, a lot of teams saw him as an inside LB prospect. But, his abilities off the edge are intriguing.

[lollygagger8]

8 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

If we are talking about a first round pick, then I mostly agree. I would not draft a player in the first round and then play him in a different position. That's just me though, and it is certainly not always the way all front offices will look at it.

 

That said, this was not a first round pick. This is where you can take a few chances. When I first watched Bates on tape, he screamed WILB to me. That was long before any of this stuff was brought up. However, I am just a guy sitting in front of a computer, talking about what the front office is doing. 

 

It sounds like the Colts front office is playing this exactly the same way I would though. Bates is the same size as Mathis, and there is no harm in trying him out at Rush. The entire NFL is moving to special packages, with hybrid defenses. Bates could have the position flexibility to play all three downs, including the special packages, and might be a player we can move around in different fronts. I would start Bates at Rush, and if he struggles then move him inside. Sounds like that is the Colts plan too. 

 

Let's be real here though. He is a late round pick, and we would be foolish to put the cart before the horse. Let's see how he looks throughout the off-season first. It is way too early know anything yet.

 

There is too much reason in this post for this forum

[krunk]

Why is it that some of us don't want to see how things play out on the field,  how people look executing these roles before we say this person won't play this year, or that person is too raw?  Clayton Geathers Was Not And Is NOT known for his coverage skills, but somehow he saw meaningful snaps as a Dime Linebacker for us on passing downs last year when he wasn't injured.  Surely the 6'3" TJ Green who runs a 4.34 should be able to do that for us this year.   I don't have a doubt in my mind about it.  Man coverage is not that complicated.  It's not like he's going to be sitting there making a bunch of reads and thinking.  They are going to put him in position to use his athleticism and that should work fine for this year.  Too much hype being spread around about this.   

 

I think at the very least with Clark or Haeg you'll see one of them at the Guard position to start off.  Grigson has not shown  as much apprehension about playing young guys at the guard position as he does tackle.  Personally I do not see Clark starting this year at tackle unless he is forced to do so.  That's not Grigsons style to play rookies at tackle unless in extreme circumstances like last year when Good was forced to play.

[BlueShoe]

7 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

No.    I'm NOT Implying that you're disrespecting Bill Polian. 

 

I'm implying that you're giving the current regime too much credit by comparing them to Bill Polian.

 

You can't compare this regime to Bill Polian.     It's too kind to this regime and too unfair to Polian.

 

One is a first ballot Hall of Famer,   the other almost got fired this off-season.

 

As for talking about 2012,  there is no poster on this website who has made that argument more than me.     So,  that's NOT WHAT I'M SAYING.

 

I'm saying on balance from 2012 to 2016,  this front office has not done a good enough job.     That's why I switched from supporting Grigson for 4 years to calling for him to lose his job.     The current roster is just not that good.   

 

It's midnight where I am....    I don't know where you live, so I don't know how late it is.....   but if you're still having trouble understanding me,  then you're either too tired and badly need sleep,  or you're too invested in winning an argument simply for the sake of winning an argument.

 

I know what I've written in post after post after post after post.    If you're still having trouble understanding me,  then that's a YOU problem, and not a ME problem.

 

Let's move on......

 

 

I went to bed after I made my last post. It was past midnight for me too. I am about 3 hours from Indy (CST).

 

Logic is taking me in one direction and it's taking you in an opposite direction. I am not trying to push anything personal towards you. I don't think you are seeing things clearly, but we are all entitled to our own opinion, and I give everyone that benefit of the doubt. That is what this board is for. I am having a very hard time arriving at the same conclusions that you are.

 

That doesn't make it a YOU or ME problem. Let's not start pointing fingers, because we both know where that road can lead. I want to have a civil debate without any personal attacking. We can have friendly disagreements. In fact, I have recently made it a core value to not waste my time on people who are rude and just want to fight. I have been on these boards for over 20 years. I have nothing more to prove to anyone, and the long-timers, well they know me. In the past, when people were rude to me, then I lit them up. I don't care to do that anymore. It is not worth my time. 

 

I don't think I give this regime too much credit at all. The facts speak loud and clear to me. This front office knocked it out of the park in 2012. They got too cute in 2013. Maybe over-confident, because of the early success. They made a few bad choices with a few first round picks. I think 2015 and 2016 were nice drafts. I just wish we would have came away with a starting offensive lineman in 2015. That is my only knock on that entire draft. 

 

This regime is still relatively young. However, to believe they don't carry a few of Bill Polian's principles would be naive for any of us to think. Jim Irsay learned a lot from Bill Polian. I strongly believe that without Bill Polian's imprint on the Colts organization, then we could have easily became the Cowboys or Redskins. Irsay has those similar personality traits. I think Polian taught Irsay to steer clear of the dramatics, and to be safer in his approach. 

 

We are witnessing this new regime grow right before our eyes. We are growing with them. The latest growth is understanding the true side effects of drafting and signing risky players. Make no mistake about it; when Grigson drafts his "safe" players, then he is damn good. I dare say Grigson is in Polian company when he is taking his safer picks. If Grigson stays with his safer picks then he could end up having a Bill Polian type of career. He is that talented; as long as he stays out of his own way. No more drafting these high risk players. Steady and sturdy is the only road we need to take. I believe Grigson has learned this to be true. 

 

The balance from 2012 to 2016 is one of a learning curve. We have witnessed every aspect of it. It is all very explainable. You're a smart dude, and this should be easy for you to see. I am not understanding why you see things the way you do. This regimes past is all laid out very logically, and the growth is so easy to see that it's nearly tangible. 

 

If Irsay can continue to be a voice in Grigson's ear, and remind him to take the safer picks then I believe Grigson will be just fine in the War Room for years to come. Granted I am assuming that Irsay is that voice of reasoning, and I believe he learned those traits from Bill Polian.

 

I believe the front office had an excellent 2016 draft. The Colts Big board and my Big board were seemingly parallel, so it's easy for me to understand where they are coming from. It's too early to know how good it is, but I believe we will all be very happy with the end results.  

[Jason_]

11 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

The Pats have a history of success.     This front office....  well,  less so.      I'm not ready to give this front office as much benefit of the doubt as others here....

 

I've been surprised at the number of people citing what the Pats do and looking for a comparison.

 

When the Colts are nearly as successful as the Patriots then we can make some comparisons....

 

I've lost a lot of faith in our front office.     I hope they win me back.     I hope they prove my skepticism to be unfounded.     I hope they prove me wrong.     I don't make negative posts hoping to be right.    I honestly hope to be wrong.     Seriously,  I'd much rather be wrong here than right.

 

 

 

 

Ok fine, then how is this different from the Bengals who used to use Manny Lawson from edge to off the ball.  Or the way the Broncos moved Miller around under Del Rio.  Or even the way the Colts used to move Andy Studebaker both inside and out?  

 

I don't see the big issue with pointing out that what the Colts mention doing with Bates is very similar to what the Pats do with Collins.  In making that comparison, there is no implication that they'll be as successful as the Pats were with moving Collins around and there's certainly no implication that the Colts front office or coaching staff has been as successful as those of the Patrios.

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, krunk said:

Why is it that some of us don't want to see how things play out on the field,  how people look executing these roles before we say this person won't play this year, or that person is too raw?  Clayton Geathers Was Not And Is NOT known for his coverage skills, but somehow he saw meaningful snaps as a Dime Linebacker for us on passing downs last year when he wasn't injured.  Surely the 6'3" TJ Green who runs a 4.34 should be able to do that for us this year.   I don't have a doubt in my mind about it.  Man coverage is not that complicated.  It's not like he's going to be sitting there making a bunch of reads and thinking.  They are going to put him in position to use his athleticism and that should work fine for this year.  Too much hype being spread around about this.   

 

I think at the very least with Clark or Haeg you'll see one of them at the Guard position to start off.  Grigson has not shown  as much apprehension about playing young guys at the guard position as he does tackle.  Personally I do not see Clark starting this year at tackle unless he is forced to do so.  That's not Grigsons style to play rookies at tackle unless in extreme circumstances like last year when Good was forced to play.

My problem with the Green selection are many but it boils down to his lack of instincts(at this point)and where we selected him in the draft.

 

This guy, Trevor Bates, I watched his highlight film and he looks like he has potential. Good instincts, good speed, looks like he is a good tackler and goes 100mph. I don't care how strong/weak the conference he played in he stood out. As far as Green,,,,he just didnt stick out unless he was blowing a coverage. As  you say tho, maybe he can play in the box and also ask him to cover a man downfield in certain situations and see if he can develop better awareness. I hope so.

[throwing BBZ]

12 hours ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I have all sorts of red flags about the front office after this draft.

 

I'm hopeful on all the picks and I've defended them.

 

But when the owner and GM come out and say Green was a 1st round pick on their board,  and Clark was a borderline 1/2 and Hoag was a 2nd round pick,   so I assume Ridgeway and Morrison were also high on their board....     when they keep saying they're drafting five guys who are 1-3 rounds higher on the board then where they are drafted,  that's a red flag for me.     Especially with a front office whose drafting I view as spotty.

 

If they had a better track record, I'd have more confidence.     Now?     I'm just highly skeptical and hoping over the next two years that I'm proven wrong and they're proven right.     I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

But I fear I'm not....

 

 They have been boneheads at drafting and developing our players. Period!
 Thank goodness they made all these coaching changes. All we can do is hope they do much better.
  And yes those draft grades are very scary! Think about Dorsett at 18? Just Wacko!
   Coach them up and Chud needs to be AMAZING! lol and Go Colts!
As a 7th rounder Bates would often be a PS guy.
 So who knows what he can become over the next 2-3 years.

[BlueShoe]

23 minutes ago, theanarchist said:

As  you say tho, maybe he can play in the box and also ask him to cover a man downfield in certain situations and see if he can develop better awareness. I hope so.

 

I have no issues with Green playing in the box or single high. I believe he has the physical traits to excel in both areas. 

 

In our system, he will be required to play both FS and SS. We purposely do not tip our hat as to which safety is free and which is strong. Therefore, both safety's have to be capable of playing both positions. 

 

In my mind, it's all about the learning curve for Green. That was an obvious Pagano pick, so I think Chuck might spend a little extra time on the molding machine with his new clay.

 

Pagano + raw athletic defensive back with outstanding measurable's = beast of a defensive back.

[jvan1973]

45 minutes ago, throwing BBZ said:

 

 They have been boneheads at drafting and developing our players. Period!
 Thank goodness they made all these coaching changes. All we can do is hope they do much better.
  And yes those draft grades are very scary! Think about Dorsett at 18? Just Wacko!
   Coach them up and Chud needs to be AMAZING! lol and Go Colts!
As a 7th rounder Bates would often be a PS guy.
 So who knows what he can become over the next 2-3 years.

Dorsett wasn't taken at 18,  he was taken at 29.    He was graded as a first round talent by just about everybody.   He was not a reach at 29

[Coffeedrinker]

12 hours ago, krunk said:

I could see him being able to play ILB as he has the size, speed and hustle for the position.  We did the same thing with Josh Mcnary coming out of Army.  He was a pass rusher coming out of college.  Bates I think is better suited on the outside, but I'm sure in the Colts future designs they probably plan on signing some top level pass rushers in next years draft I'm almost positive.  As far as this year is concerned it depends on who our best pass rushers are in the preseason.  If he comes in and balls out I believes he stays outside, however if Maggitt and Thompson are better I could see him being moved inside as he would be a really nice sized inside linebacker at 6'2" and 245lbs with the speed to chase.  I'm sure they are also thinking about all those tipped passes and different interceptions he got last year with Maine.  I can sort of see where they are going with this, but I need to see him playing live with the colts to convince me a little bit.

I think the bolder proves newColtsfans point more than just about anything.  Josh Mcnary is one of the worst ILBs I have seen at the pro level and why he is still on the team is a mystery.

[krunk]

13 minutes ago, Coffeedrinker said:

I think the bolder proves newColtsfans point more than just about anything.  Josh Mcnary is one of the worst ILBs I have seen at the pro level and why he is still on the team is a mystery.

 

Not really because Mcnary just isn't good at either thing. Rushing the passer or ILB. It's a Mcnary thing, but not the first time it's been done.  Ideally I think Bates belongs outside, but if you're going to try something with a player it's a 7th rounder or UDFA you do it with.  Which that's what's happening with Bates and Okine.

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, BlueShoe said:

 

I have no issues with Green playing in the box or single high. I believe he has the physical traits to excel in both areas. 

 

In our system, he will be required to play both FS and SS. We purposely do not tip our hat as to which safety is free and which is strong. Therefore, both safety's have to be capable of playing both positions. 

 

In my mind, it's all about the learning curve for Green. That was an obvious Pagano pick, so I think Chuck might spend a little extra time on the molding machine with his new clay.

 

Pagano + raw athletic defensive back with outstanding measurable's = beast of a defensive back.

Hope you are right

[NewColtsFan]

2 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

 

If Irsay can continue to be a voice in Grigson's ear, and remind him to take the safer picks then I believe Grigson will be just fine in the War Room for years to come. Granted I am assuming that Irsay is that voice of reasoning, and I believe he learned those traits from Bill Polian.

 

 

I don't think there was anything "safe" about taking Green and Clark.

 

They are two guys who could hit and pay dividends for a decade.     And they could also both be huge busts.

 

High ceiling,  but low floor players.     Nothing safe about that.

 

Irsay/Grigson/Pagano are gambling on greatness.      That's a bold move.    Now they have to make it pay off.

 

These guys need to perform by Year 2.

 

[dgambill]

Man I love the rush to judgement on this board. First we complain about who we picked...then we complain at what we MAY do with a player. We keep saying how we constantly mess stuff up yet this is almost a whole new staff. New line coaches, OC, DC I mean lets give them a shot to do their job before we throw our chips all in on them sucking. Its always the sky is falling attitude. Don't get me wrong I understand we have to temper our expectations but a little optimism wouldn't hurt people. People act like we are the Cleveland Browns or something. We have a track record of being pretty good. Sure its been mixed results lately but we have changed course when we have seen things weren't working...and I'd like to think the people we brought in have the opportunity to be good coaches and make some good decisions.

[Gavin]

Makes some since, He does have good sideline to sideline speed and has good size for ILB. But if he actually plays well as a rush linebacker I hope they are smart enough to keep him their

[NewColtsFan]

12 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

 

Every NFL team is going to walk away from the draft feeling good about themselves. For the most part; they get the players they wanted. Different team needs, different offensive and defensive philosophies, different philosophies on players with red flags, and so on; this causes teams to have completely different boards. I would bet that no team has players ranked in the same order at any position. 

 

 

You're going to win that bet -- easily!    Since the day I arrived here I've been stressing that over and over and over again.

 

No one sees the same thing the same way.     We all see the same thing differently.     And that if there are 32 teams,  their draft boards are all completely different.

 

Every time a fan here complains that X player was taken too high because we all know where he was ranked, I try to remind the fan that that's not the case.....     many fans act as if all 32 teams are drafting from the same master list,  when most here know they're not.    

 

But just because everyone sees the same thing differently,  doesn't mean that they're seeing it correctly.   It doesn't make them right.      I'm hoping the Colts are right.     But I don't think we'll know for at least two years.

 

[Gavin]

2 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

I have no issues with Green playing in the box or single high. I believe he has the physical traits to excel in both areas. 

 

In our system, he will be required to play both FS and SS. We purposely do not tip our hat as to which safety is free and which is strong. Therefore, both safety's have to be capable of playing both positions. 

 

In my mind, it's all about the learning curve for Green. That was an obvious Pagano pick, so I think Chuck might spend a little extra time on the molding machine with his new clay.

 

Pagano + raw athletic defensive back with outstanding measurable's = beast of a defensive back.

"Pagano + raw athletic defensive back with outstanding measurable's = beast of a defensive back."

 

Greg Toler, Cassius Vaughn, Josh Gordy and plenty of others would disagree

[NewColtsFan]

3 hours ago, BlueShoe said:

 

 

 

Logic is taking me in one direction and it's taking you in an opposite direction. I am not trying to push anything personal towards you. I don't think you are seeing things clearly, but we are all entitled to our own opinion, and I give everyone that benefit of the doubt. That is what this board is for. I am having a very hard time arriving at the same conclusions that you are.

 

That doesn't make it a YOU or ME problem. Let's not start pointing fingers, because we both know where that road can lead. I want to have a civil debate without any personal attacking. We can have friendly disagreements. In fact, I have recently made it a core value to not waste my time on people who are rude and just want to fight. I have been on these boards for over 20 years. I have nothing more to prove to anyone, and the long-timers, well they know me. In the past, when people were rude to me, then I lit them up. I don't care to do that anymore. It is not worth my time. 

 

I think your just looking the entire situation wrong. But we have to look at in a way that makes sense to us. I just cannot see where you are coming from. Your comments in this thread are odd to me. I am wondering if someone hacked your account. 

 

 

When it comes to saying that I'm making this personal and that you're not....  well...   let's just say we disagree here too.      I don't think your hands are as clean as you'd like to think......

 

I don't care if we disagree....    there's no one here I agree with 100% of the time,  and I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me on that level.     That's just the way human nature works.

 

I think this roster is thin....  Not nearly enough difference makers for 5 years in.   That's on Grigson.    I backed him for more than 3 years.     He lost me during the 2015 season.     When Pagano came close to being fired,  I said "OK,  but if he goes,  then so should Grigson."

 

The days of winning 11 regular season games because we had 6 mostly easy division wins are over.

Playing J'Ville, Tennessee and Houston is not going to be as easy as it's been.    It's a new day in the AFC South.

 

  

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't think there was anything "safe" about taking Green and Clark.

 

They are two guys who could hit and pay dividends for a decade.     And they could also both be huge busts.

 

High ceiling,  but low floor players.     Nothing safe about that.

 

Irsay/Grigson/Pagano are gambling on greatness.      That's a bold move.    Now they have to make it pay off.

 

These guys need to perform by Year 2.

 

 

We are not seeing the same things here. It is as simple as that. 

 

The Green pick wasn't safe. but the Clark pick was very safe. 

 

Both were ranked very high on the Colts board. They were ranked very high on my board too. I actually had Clark ranked higher than Green though. 

 

Both Green and Clark have high ceilings, and Clark also has a high floor. 

 

How are Irsay/Grigson/Pagano gambling on greatness? Kelly and Clark were as safe of picks as you will ever see. Green was Pagano's pick.

 

I see them performing much sooner than year 2. Green will perform on special teams this year (and see some playing time at safety), and Clark will likely start.

[Flash]

7 minutes ago, BlueShoe said:

 

We are not seeing the same things here. It is as simple as that. 

 

The Green pick wasn't safe. but the Clark pick was very safe. 

 

Both were ranked very high on the Colts board. They were ranked very high on my board too. I actually had Clark ranked higher than Green though. 

 

Both Green and Clark have high ceilings, and Clark also has a high floor. 

 

How are Irsay/Grigson/Pagano gambling on greatness? Kelly and Clark were as safe of picks as you will ever see. Green was Pagano's pick.

 

I see them performing much sooner than year 2. Green will perform on special teams this year (and see some playing time at safety), and Clark will likely start.

If I could jump into this conversation...

 

Here are two articles with opinions on Clark and TJ Green from people outside of the Colts organization. These opinions come from people that cover Clark's and Green's respective teams and they are refreshingly honest, IMO.

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/5/5/11601968/learning-more-about-t-j-green-q-a-shakin-the-southland-it-wasnt-a-smart-decision-by-the-colts

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/5/6/11605342/learning-more-about-leraven-clark-q-a-viva-the-matadors-it-might-end-up-being-a-steal-colts

[BlueShoe]

50 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

You're going to win that bet -- easily!    Since the day I arrived here I've been stressing that over and over and over again.

 

No one sees the same thing the same way.     We all see the same thing differently.     And that if there are 32 teams,  their draft boards are all completely different.

 

Every time a fan here complains that X player was taken too high because we all know where he was ranked, I try to remind the fan that that's not the case.....     many fans act as if all 32 teams are drafting from the same master list,  when most here know they're not.    

 

But just because everyone sees the same thing differently,  doesn't mean that they're seeing it correctly.   It doesn't make them right.      I'm hoping the Colts are right.     But I don't think we'll know for at least two years.

 

 

So we agree on some things. Now apply that logic to Irsay/Grigson/Pagano's comments about getting players who were highly ranked on their board. Not only is it feasible, but it is actually very likely that most teams will get the players they absolutely wanted. Most teams will watch players they have highly ranked, fall in the draft.

 

I am not attacking you when I say this, but I don't understand how you can agree on the logic, but not apply it to the front offices comments.

 

On one hand you are telling other Colts fans that every team board is different. On the other hand you don't believe the front office when they tell us players fell and they could not believe they were there.

 

I just want to reach out and grab the extension cord, and plug it in man.  You have all the data, but it just needs to be plugged in. 

[BlueShoe]

54 minutes ago, NewColtsFan said:

 

 

When it comes to saying that I'm making this personal and that you're not....  well...   let's just say we disagree here too.      I don't think your hands are as clean as you'd like to think......

 

I don't care if we disagree....    there's no one here I agree with 100% of the time,  and I wouldn't expect anyone to agree with me on that level.     That's just the way human nature works.

 

I think this roster is thin....  Not nearly enough difference makers for 5 years in.   That's on Grigson.    I backed him for more than 3 years.     He lost me during the 2015 season.     When Pagano came close to being fired,  I said "OK,  but if he goes,  then so should Grigson."

 

The days of winning 11 regular season games because we had 6 mostly easy division wins are over.

Playing J'Ville, Tennessee and Houston is not going to be as easy as it's been.    It's a new day in the AFC South.

 

  

 

I have not personally attacked you on anything, man. I have actually stated several times that we are all entitled to our own opinion. I only stated that I do not understand your logic on these issues.

 

No one is arguing that the AFC South is getting better. Many have us have been predicting it for quite some time. I have went as far (before last season) to say that the AFC South is only a few years away from becoming one of the tougher divisions in the NFL.

 

I don't see the Colts roster as "weak" like you do. I think we need to make some improvements, but we can say that about every Super Bowl team in the modern era. It is just the way it is, because of the salary cap.

 

Bottom line is that you have issues with Grigson. You and anyone else are entitled to have that opinion. I just strongly disagree. I believe this off-season is going beautifully. 

[theanarchist]

1 hour ago, dgambill said:

Man I love the rush to judgement on this board. First we complain about who we picked...then we complain at what we MAY do with a player. We keep saying how we constantly mess stuff up yet this is almost a whole new staff. New line coaches, OC, DC I mean lets give them a shot to do their job before we throw our chips all in on them sucking. Its always the sky is falling attitude. Don't get me wrong I understand we have to temper our expectations but a little optimism wouldn't hurt people. People act like we are the Cleveland Browns or something. We have a track record of being pretty good. Sure its been mixed results lately but we have changed course when we have seen things weren't working...and I'd like to think the people we brought in have the opportunity to be good coaches and make some good decisions.

Johnny Cochran?

[BlueShoe]

1 hour ago, Flash said:

If I could jump into this conversation...

 

Here are two articles with opinions on Clark and TJ Green from people outside of the Colts organization. These opinions come from people that cover Clark's and Green's respective teams and they are refreshingly honest, IMO.

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/5/5/11601968/learning-more-about-t-j-green-q-a-shakin-the-southland-it-wasnt-a-smart-decision-by-the-colts

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2016/5/6/11605342/learning-more-about-leraven-clark-q-a-viva-the-matadors-it-might-end-up-being-a-steal-colts

 

That falls more into my line of thinking, but I think they are a little low on Green. I agree that a team was going to take him earlier because of the measurable's. If we didn't then another team would have. He probably would have not made it to us at #82. So we took him where we had to. 

 

Personally I would not have taken Green until the 3rd round, but I would have taken Clark in the second. It is kind of like the Fleener and Allen picks. I would have taken Allen second and Fleener in the third. 

 

Clark was a very safe pick. Green was a gamble. 

[Goatface Killah]

On 5/6/2016 at 2:55 AM, NewColtsFan said:

 

I don't think we can make the statement that Grigson drafted players to start.

 

Green is not starting.    Not unless someone gets hurt.     And nor do I think Clark starts.    I can't begin to tell you how raw Clark is.     Put another way, if Clark starts,  then Philbin is up for the Assistant Coach of the year.

 

Over Thornton, or Good, or Reitz?      No.      Sorry,  but I don't see it.   

 

That's why I was so surprised at our draft -- we spent our 2 and 3 on guys who do not project to start.

 

The fact that we called one a first rounder (Green) and the other a borderline 1st rounder (Clark)  does not mean they start.     It means we love their ceiling.     We love what they'll be once their polished for a year.    I'll be beyond shocked if they play a lot more than just special teams.     Seriously.

 

 

Over Thornton, Good or Reitz?

 

Yes!

 

Clark is a very good prospect and definitely has a chance to start. The guys you listed are all marginal starters at best.

 

 

You shouldnt be so appalled at the comparisons to Bill Polians drafts because Grigsons drafts actually stack up pretty favoribly. 

[TheRustonRifle#7]

I would hope he makes the team first before anyone gets too huffy over a possible move in the future

[dgambill]

21 hours ago, theanarchist said:

Johnny Cochran?

Not sure I follow lol...I'm a bit dense...all I'm saying is we basically hired a whole new staff yet everyone acts like we are just doing things the same ol same ol. I'm not necessarily directing this at anyone but just a post in general. It isn't surprising we try a few guys out at a couple different positions...it isn't like OLB is the ONLY need on this team. We need help at a lot of positions and if a guy's best chance to help the team is moving spots then I'm all for it. Besides it isn't like he said he would only play him at ILB...and didn't even say when...it could be in a couple years and transition him. It has just been frustrating that everyone has been so negative because we didn't fix ALL our holes.

 

Fact is this team isn't even a playoff team...which means we aren't close to winning a SB despite what some people want to believe. We have a lot of work to fix this team and it can't be solved in one offseason...I think we made a lot of strides in fixing one of our biggest weaknesses this offseason and hopefully next we can address the other. Just the negativity is amazing because we haven't even had mini-camp yet and we have already thrown in the towel on many of these guys.

[crazycolt1]

20 minutes ago, dgambill said:

Not sure I follow lol...I'm a bit dense...all I'm saying is we basically hired a whole new staff yet everyone acts like we are just doing things the same ol same ol. I'm not necessarily directing this at anyone but just a post in general. It isn't surprising we try a few guys out at a couple different positions...it isn't like OLB is the ONLY need on this team. We need help at a lot of positions and if a guy's best chance to help the team is moving spots then I'm all for it. Besides it isn't like he said he would only play him at ILB...and didn't even say when...it could be in a couple years and transition him. It has just been frustrating that everyone has been so negative because we didn't fix ALL our holes.

 

Fact is this team isn't even a playoff team...which means we aren't close to winning a SB despite what some people want to believe. We have a lot of work to fix this team and it can't be solved in one offseason...I think we made a lot of strides in fixing one of our biggest weaknesses this offseason and hopefully next we can address the other. Just the negativity is amazing because we haven't even had mini-camp yet and we have already thrown in the towel on many of these guys.

If you pay close attention it is always the same forum members who keep a non stop negative conversation going. No matter what happens they will never be happy. Heck, we could win a super bowl and they would find an excuse to whine. It's never about what we did, it's always what we didn't do.

[John Dee]

On 5/6/2016 at 11:07 PM, NewColtsFan said:

 

I have all sorts of red flags about the front office after this draft.

 

I'm hopeful on all the picks and I've defended them.

 

But when the owner and GM come out and say Green was a 1st round pick on their board,  and Clark was a borderline 1/2 and Hoag was a 2nd round pick,   so I assume Ridgeway and Morrison were also high on their board....     when they keep saying they're drafting five guys who are 1-3 rounds higher on the board then where they are drafted,  that's a red flag for me.     Especially with a front office whose drafting I view as spotty.

 

If they had a better track record, I'd have more confidence.     Now?     I'm just highly skeptical and hoping over the next two years that I'm proven wrong and they're proven right.     I'd be happy to be wrong.

 

But I fear I'm not....

Listen to R V's interview with JMV on 1070 the fan he address this ....      honestly the Colts NEEDED to start taking this route. ..     The key is did they hit?    

 

[John Dee]

Play the guy where he is at his best...     "football player"..     If dude his a player he will stick....    wherever that may be.    

[Two_pound]

Comparing Polian to Grigson is very interesting. Polian came in and had a solid core to work with both offensively and defensively. Grigson comes in and guts the roster and has more success in his first four years than Polian did yet somehow Grigson sucks. 41 wins and 3 playoff wins for Grigson, 32 wins and 0 playoff wins for Polian.

[ztboiler]

On 5/6/2016 at 9:23 AM, krunk said:

Why is it that some of us don't want to see how things play out on the field,  how people look executing these roles before we say this person won't play this year, or that person is too raw?  Clayton Geathers Was Not And Is NOT known for his coverage skills, but somehow he saw meaningful snaps as a Dime Linebacker for us on passing downs last year when he wasn't injured.  Surely the 6'3" TJ Green who runs a 4.34 should be able to do that for us this year.   I don't have a doubt in my mind about it.  Man coverage is not that complicated.  It's not like he's going to be sitting there making a bunch of reads and thinking.  They are going to put him in position to use his athleticism and that should work fine for this year.  Too much hype being spread around about this.   

 

I think at the very least with Clark or Haeg you'll see one of them at the Guard position to start off.  Grigson has not shown  as much apprehension about playing young guys at the guard position as he does tackle.  Personally I do not see Clark starting this year at tackle unless he is forced to do so.  That's not Grigsons style to play rookies at tackle unless in extreme circumstances like last year when Good was forced to play.

I'm not sure you mean it the way you wrote it...but what does Grigson have to do with whether a rookie plays or not...maybe you meant the regime in general to include coaching decisions? 

 

Grigson may have a preference but who plays and how they develop is 100 percent a Pagano decision.

[theanarchist]

4 hours ago, dgambill said:

Not sure I follow lol...I'm a bit dense...all I'm saying is we basically hired a whole new staff yet everyone acts like we are just doing things the same ol same ol. I'm not necessarily directing this at anyone but just a post in general. It isn't surprising we try a few guys out at a couple different positions...it isn't like OLB is the ONLY need on this team. We need help at a lot of positions and if a guy's best chance to help the team is moving spots then I'm all for it. Besides it isn't like he said he would only play him at ILB...and didn't even say when...it could be in a couple years and transition him. It has just been frustrating that everyone has been so negative because we didn't fix ALL our holes.

 

Fact is this team isn't even a playoff team...which means we aren't close to winning a SB despite what some people want to believe. We have a lot of work to fix this team and it can't be solved in one offseason...I think we made a lot of strides in fixing one of our biggest weaknesses this offseason and hopefully next we can address the other. Just the negativity is amazing because we haven't even had mini-camp yet and we have already thrown in the towel on many of these guys.

I was making a funny. I guess I have to realize not everyone was around or followed the OJ trial. Johnny Cochran was OJ's lawyer and he made use of the term "rush to judgment" every chance he got.

 

Oh, and as far as moving Bates to ILB I don't really care. I think the kid can play defense. I don't care if they move him to CB(being sarcastic)he looks to me like he can tackle, run and make plays.

[theanarchist]

4 hours ago, crazycolt1 said:

If you pay close attention it is always the same forum members who keep a non stop negative conversation going. No matter what happens they will never be happy. Heck, we could win a super bowl and they would find an excuse to whine. It's never about what we did, it's always what we didn't do.

I'll assume that since dgambill was quoting me that maybe you were referring to me? IDK, If anyone read my posts about Bates I've been saying I think he's a good draft choice. I think both of our 7th rounders are good picks for being around at the end of the draft I think both have a really good chance of making the team. Then again maybe you weren't referring to me. I won't argue that I have been complaining a lot about the Green selection in round 2.

 

[crazycolt1]

1 hour ago, theanarchist said:

I'll assume that since dgambill was quoting me that maybe you were referring to me? IDK, If anyone read my posts about Bates I've been saying I think he's a good draft choice. I think both of our 7th rounders are good picks for being around at the end of the draft I think both have a really good chance of making the team. Then again maybe you weren't referring to me. I won't argue that I have been complaining a lot about the Green selection in round 2.

 

I was not talking about anyone specifically. If you say something positive you are accused of being a blind fan or a homer. If you have nothing but negative comments you are not looking at the big picture. For those who can find nothing but negativity it is an argumentative personality. Some seem to have the attitude that everyone on the roster has to be perfect and every coach has to be  a super coach. If not they suck and some one needs to lose their job. IMO there is no such thing as a perfect team or coaching staff and to expect that is childish and unreal.

[theanarchist]

13 minutes ago, crazycolt1 said:

I was not talking about anyone specifically. If you say something positive you are accused of being a blind fan or a homer. If you have nothing but negative comments you are not looking at the big picture. For those who can find nothing but negativity it is an argumentative personality. Some seem to have the attitude that everyone on the roster has to be perfect and every coach has to be  a super coach. If not they suck and some one needs to lose their job. IMO there is no such thing as a perfect team or coaching staff and to expect that is childish and unreal.

Eh, I know some are like that. Some just have a strong opinion about certain things. Some I pay attention to. Others I don't because i can usually tell whether they are giving an intelligent opinion or just arguing to argue.

[krunk]

2 hours ago, ztboiler said:

I'm not sure you mean it the way you wrote it...but what does Grigson have to do with whether a rookie plays or not...maybe you meant the regime in general to include coaching decisions? 

 

Grigson may have a preference but who plays and how they develop is 100 percent a Pagano decision.

 

Yeah in general the whole staff.  At the tackle position they proven they like to go with experience

[dgambill]

On ‎5‎/‎7‎/‎2016 at 4:54 PM, theanarchist said:

I was making a funny. I guess I have to realize not everyone was around or followed the OJ trial. Johnny Cochran was OJ's lawyer and he made use of the term "rush to judgment" every chance he got.

 

Oh, and as far as moving Bates to ILB I don't really care. I think the kid can play defense. I don't care if they move him to CB(being sarcastic)he looks to me like he can tackle, run and make plays.

Gotcha. Yeah we watched the trial almost everyday in High School in our Art Class lol. We'd be making ashtrays and mugs and painting etc and the teacher had it on the tv every day. I didn't care a whole lot at the time as there were bigger things to worry about with sports and friends and girls lol. I will say that was an interesting class. We also watched the Waco standoff and a replay of the Buster Douglass/Mike Tyson fight and many other things. Very inspiring lol. No wonder I have no artistic ability.

 

Yes I agree. We have holes all over the defense so whatever helps the team the most is fine by me. We need more than just pass rushers....lots of needs.

[zibby43]

On 5/6/2016 at 0:18 PM, Coffeedrinker said:

I think the bolder proves newColtsfans point more than just about anything.  Josh Mcnary is one of the worst ILBs I have seen at the pro level and why he is still on the team is a mystery.

 

Then you obviously haven't watched a lot of pro football.  Because I've seen plenty worse.

 

And McNary is on the team because he's a good special teams player.  That's pretty obvious at this point.