The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)

[Surge89]

Just now, RockThatBlue said:

I wonder if Grigson has anything to do with us still playing Harrison at center.

 

I'm very interested in this as well.

[grmasterb]

12 minutes ago, relkins said:

Hope Irsay reads some of this

 

You think he doesn't know all of this?

[lennymoore24]

If this is all true, knowing there are two sides to every story, then I feel badly for Pagano and Grigson has to go.  Because it shows you how much more remarkable the job Pagano has done and how much it will be impossible to get any other decent coach to work with Grigson.   Is Jon Gruden or Adam Gase going to want to deal with Grigson telling them who is going to play?  

 

So it seems we are screwed.  It Grigson stays, that means we get a coach he can basically push around.  If Grigson leaves, why didn't we keep Pagano and get a better GM?

 

This is not good.

[lennymoore24]

Talk about if Irsay reads this.  Just tweet him. I do.  Not that he listens to me, but if he got enough backlash he might think about it.  Not that I had anything to do with it, but it was funny that I tweeted Pep should be fired and replaced with Chud and two days later that is what happened.  But maybe he got that a lot or it was completely unrelated.  But cracked me up.

 

[DougDew]

As I said before...Kravitz' multiple sources are AQ, Dwayne Allen, and now maybe Pagano himself.....

 

Why would anyone believe this article as being objective?

 

Don't you know that Kravitz and folks like him champion the little guy and write the narrative that bosses are micromanaging meddlers? 

[Gavin]

Going to get real interesting here in just 4 days even moreso then it already is. I think we just have had to much inexperience in the organization at key spots and that combined with some other issues caused this whole thing to snow ball into what we have today. Also while Richardson was not good overall to put it mildly who did we have behind him that could take the share of the carries and trust to stay healthy? Herron? No...Bradshaw? Obviously not, Tipton? No. Megget? No. Phillip Tanner? No, Ballard was on IR, As for Richardsons production...He had 15+ carries 8 times in 35 games as a Colt....I repeat.....8. He averaged 10.8 carries a game as a Colt. He actually WAS on his way to have some very good running games BUT we QUIT running him for various reasons

 

[BOTT]

3 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I wonder if Grigson has anything to do with us still playing Harrison at center.

For what it's worth, I know Big Joe said that the locker room was convinced that Grigson was behind Satele starting in front of AQ.  

[RockThatBlue]

4 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

I'm very interested in this as well.

Wasn't the rumor last year it was Grigsons call to bench Shipley for Harrison? And then we benched Harrison for Holmes. Something very strange goes on with the center position.

[Surge89]

2 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Going to get real interesting here in just 4 days even moreso then it already is. I think we just have had to much inexperience in the organization at key spots and that combined with some other issues caused this whole thing to snow ball into what we have today. Also while Richardson was not good overall to put it mildly who did we have behind him that could take the share of the carries and trust to stay healthy? Herron? No...Bradshaw? Obviously not, Tipton? No. Megget? No. Phillip Tanner? No, Ballard was on IR, As for Richardsons production...He had 15+ carries 8 times in 35 games as a Colt....I repeat.....8. He averaged 10.8 carries a game as a Colt. He actually WAS on his way to have some very good running games BUT we QUIT running him for various reasons

 

 

Err...

 

that number is skewed by how much we didn't run him in the end.  But he had multiple times to have decent carry games and showed very very little promise.  It's really hard to give a RB that you gave up a first round for AND is a vet time to give you return.  This wasn't a draft pick.  This was a trade for a RB who supposedly was ready now (give his 3 or 4? years of experience).

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

43 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

So, keep Pagano and fire Grigson. Newest report I just read said the info on Pagano being fired isn't true, or isn't being confirmed by Irsay. 

 

If this info is indeed true, Grigson needs to be gone Monday morning. Bring in someone that will allow the team and Pagano the ability to do as needed and not be a stand in because of just what the GM wants. 

Agree I have said all along, Pagano is not the problem, Grigson is!!

[RockThatBlue]

2 minutes ago, BOTT said:

For what it's worth, I know Big Joe said that the locker room was convinced that Grigson was behind Satele starting in front of AQ.  

I think there was a rumor last year too that Grigson was behind benching Shipley for Harrison.

[grmasterb]

2 minutes ago, DougDew said:

As I said before...Kravitz' multiple sources are AQ, Dwayne Allen, and now maybe Pagano himself.....

 

Why would anyone believe this article as being objective?

 

Don't you know that Kravitz and folks like him champion the little guy and write the narrative that bosses are micromanaging meddlers? 

 

And you know this how? Kravitz has been in this market for about 15 years and is one of the closest media members to the team. His reporting is reliable. Just ask Patriots fans.

[Surge89]

3 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

Wasn't the rumor last year it was Grigsons call to bench Shipley for Harrison? And then we benched Harrison for Holmes. Something very strange goes on with the center position.

 

Whew... yes I remember those rumblings...

 

Boy oh boy this is gonna get messy.

[Susie Q]

21 minutes ago, Indyfan4life said:

So it's Pagano's fault that Grigson runs 95% of things how he wants? You don't think Jerry Jones controls the Cowboys and plays to an extent. Don't be like that. 

Big difference Jerry Jones is the owner last I heard Irsay owns the Colts.

[Indyfan4life]

1 minute ago, Susie Q said:

Big difference Jerry Jones is the owner last I heard Irsay owns the Colts.

I know... It's a comparison in terms of having control vs not having control. 

[BOTT]

2 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

I think there was a rumor last year too that Grigson was behind benching Shipley for Harrison.

Maybe it was Harrison.  I get all the colts' crappy centers confused.

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, grmasterb said:

 

And you know this how? Kravitz has been in this market for about 15 years and is one of the closest media members to the team. His reporting is reliable. Just ask Patriots fans.

I just read the entire article.  OMG, its an Op Ed piece.

 

Dustin's posting of the info doesn't do it justice.  Kravitz is defending Pagano...and he works in a slam on Polian too...because he's basically a quasi-marxist at heart and hates the concept of Executive Management, and anybody who holds that position.

 

Yes, I've read him for 20 years...and, no,  I'm not kidding.

[peytonmanning18]

26 minutes ago, Dustin said:

 

No, its Paganos fault he is a bad head coach with bad game management abilities.

 

How do you judge head coaches?  

[Horse Shoe Heaven]

17 minutes ago, 2006Coltsbestever said:

Out of all of this I wonder how Andrew feels? He is our best player and Franchise QB. He may not want Pagano gone, so if Pagano goes he may not be happy at that point. I seriously doubt he speaks on the situation because he is so well mannered and it's not his nature to get involved in personnel decisions but maybe he should say something being the QB.

I want Pagano to stay, But honestly it won't hinge on what Andrew feels or wants, Peyton wanted Jim Mora to stay when he got fired and replaced by Dungy

[peytonmanning18]

19 minutes ago, BOTT said:

It was a good call.  Bad spot by the refs.

 Lol

[Surge89]

31 minutes ago, Superman said:

If they keep Grigson and get rid of Pagano, they'll lose half the locker room. 

 

Maybe all of this isn't true, but it's hard to believe that at least some of it isn't true. And the players see it. I'm fine with confrontation breeding production, but no cream has risen to the top of this mess. Grigson and Pagano look bad in the light of these persistent rumors, and it reflects poorly on Irsay. 

 

Imo this looks worse on Grigs than Pagano in fact I'll go as far as to say this looks bad on Irsay and Grigson but looks great for Pagano.

 

Pagano is well liked and respected in the NFL world long before Grigson rose to the top of Indy.  Pagano also has a locker room that hasn't quit on him and players willing to vouch.  Pagano right now is more than likely a hot coaching candidate as he just went (more than likely) 8-8 without one of the leagues up and coming QB's and in spite of a GM who wouldn't really let him coach.  Grigs on the other hand I'm not sure how any owner sees him fit to run anything if it is gonna end in the type of dysfunctional chaos that Indy is in now.

 

Irsay is going to be stuck in limbo as well...  If he lets Grigs go and keeps Pagano it shows favoring and therefore every GM will be hesitant to come to a place where the HC is put on a pedestal.  If he cuts Pagano and Grigs is still here this team will most likely never be the same as they won't see the HC with power but a scapegoat for Grigson to tinker with until his time is done.

 

This mess can only be resolved with both gone.  Which is sad and frustrating if Pagano goes somewhere else and becomes the new Bill B.

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

This mess can only be resolved with both gone.  Which is sad and frustrating if Pagano goes somewhere else and becomes the new Bill B.

 

I don't think we need to worry about that.

[Superman]

39 minutes ago, relkins said:

How can they blame Chuck for Grigsons bad choices. This is moronic!

 

Chuck has made bad choices of his own.

[Gavin]

1 minute ago, Surge89 said:

 

Err...

 

that number is skewed by how much we didn't run him in the end.  But he had multiple times to have decent carry games and showed very very little promise.  It's really hard to give a RB that you gave up a first round for AND is a vet time to give you return.  This wasn't a draft pick.  This was a trade for a RB who supposedly was ready now (give his 3 or 4? years of experience).

5 times in the first 8 weeks of the season in 2014 he had a 3.8 or better ypc...2 of those times he had 20 carries, 4 of those times he had 14 or less carries

[Surge89]

1 minute ago, Superman said:

 

I don't think we need to worry about that.

 

How do you know?  Pagano seems to know how to get people to play for him and you may never know that he can find a core of people to make up for his X's and O's.  That combination has a very high ceiling if players are willing to play for their coach.

 

[Surge89]

Just now, Gavin said:

5 times in the first 8 weeks of the season in 2014 he had a 3.8 or better ypc...2 of those times he had 20 carries, 4 of those times he had 14 or less carries

 

3.8 though... is a low floor... one that his contemporaries on the very same team surpassed with less carries...

[Superman]

Just now, Surge89 said:

 

How do you know?  Pagano seems to know how to get people to play for him and you may never know that he can find a core of people to make up for his X's and O's.  That combination has a very high ceiling if players are willing to play for their coach.

 

 

Like when? What team has succeeded in the last 15+ years with a coach who has schematic shortcomings?

 

I could see Pagano being the next Pete Carroll. Belichick is too high a bar.

[Surge89]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Like when? What team has succeeded in the last 15+ years with a coach who has schematic shortcomings?

 

I could see Pagano being the next Pete Carroll. Belichick is too high a bar.

 

Oh cmon... really?  I wasn't being literal Jesus

 

I'm saying the potential is there to be a great HC.  Argue ghost arguments if you want.  I'll try and be as literal as possible when I post then.

[GoColts8818]

For those saying they hope Irsay reads this.

 

i doubt he needs to.  He's in the building.  I am sure he knows what's going on with his team.

[coltsva]

If Grigson dictated to Pagano who to play and how to discipline, then I don't want either one of them here. Don't need a meddling GM or a puppet coach. 

 

[Gavin]

7 minutes ago, Surge89 said:

 

3.8 though... is a low floor... one that his contemporaries on the very same team surpassed with less carries...

Herron had 6 4.0 or better games in 2014 counting playoffs (7 total since 2013). 3.8 is a low floor I agree but he had so few carries on average (Richardson I mean)...Richardson had 6 total games of 4.0 or better not counting playoffs as a Colt

[Superman]

1 minute ago, Surge89 said:

 

Oh cmon... really?  I wasn't being literal Jesus

 

I'm saying the potential is there to be a great HC.  Argue ghost arguments if you want.  I'll try and be as literal as possible when I post then.

 

Set aside the Belichick comment. What team has had success with a QB who has shortcomings with gameplanning, in-game adjustments, game management decisions, etc.? Not to mention sustained success.

 

Ron Rivera is the closest example of a guy who goes from struggling with game management to one who excels at it, and he's an anomaly. Usually, a tiger doesn't change his stripes. I like Pagano, I like how guys play for him and rally around him, and I think it kind of sucks that he's been undermined by his GM (if this is true). But when it comes to game day coaching, he can't hang with the best coaches in the league. 

[Superman]

2 minutes ago, Gavin said:

Herron had 6 4.0 or better games in 2014 counting playoffs (7 total since 2013). 3.8 is a low floor I agree but he had so few carries on average

 

Are you defending Trent Richardson?

[peytonmanning18]

27 minutes ago, RockThatBlue said:

Wasn't the rumor last year it was Grigsons call to bench Shipley for Harrison? And then we benched Harrison for Holmes. Something very strange goes on with the center position.

It's Grigson's huge ego.  It's the reason Harrison kept playing, it's the reason Trent Richardson kept playing.

[grmasterb]

19 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I just read the entire article.  OMG, its an Op Ed piece.

 

Dustin's posting of the info doesn't do it justice.  Kravitz is defending Pagano...and he works in a slam on Polian too...because he's basically a quasi-marxist at heart and hates the concept of Executive Management, and anybody who holds that position.

 

Yes, I've read him for 20 years...and, no,  I'm not kidding.

Of course it's an op-ed piece. Kravitz is a columnist mainly; sometimes he does hard news reporting. But history says he has facts to support his position.

[Superman]

21 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I just read the entire article.  OMG, its an Op Ed piece.

 

Not remotely. He's restating info that he claims to have gotten from Colts sources. You can say you don't agree with it, you can say it's not reliable, you can deride it because it's unnamed sources... you can even undermine it because it comes from Kravitz, who has his flaws. But he's clearly differentiating between opinion and reporting.

[DougDew]

3 minutes ago, grmasterb said:

Of course it's an op-ed piece. Kravitz is a columnist mainly; sometimes he does hard news reporting. But history says he has facts to support his position.

There are problems with the article that I will probably point out as I get quoted more.....

[DougDew]

2 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Not remotely. He's restating info that he claims to have gotten from Colts sources. You can say you don't agree with it, you can say it's not reliable, you can deride it because it's unnamed sources... you can even undermine it because it comes from Kravitz, who has his flaws. But he's clearly differentiating between opinion and reporting.

I'm fuming at the cleverness of the article right now.  I'll need to calm down and get back to you.

[Gavin]

9 minutes ago, Superman said:

 

Are you defending Trent Richardson?

I have said multiple occasions he was a bad rb....I'm looking at it from both sides of the coin rather then just "Richardson sucks" side. I hated the stutter step, I hated that he could be ankle tackled often. I hated he did not lower his pads but his oppurtunities were most often limited as a Colt and he did actually get off to good starts in some games. I would not say defending him but looking at it from every perspective

[peytonmanning18]

2 minutes ago, Gavin said:

I have said multiple occasions he was a bad rb. I hated the stutter step, I hated that he could be ankle tackled often. I hated he did not lower his pads but his oppurtunities were most often limited as a Colt and he did actually get off to good starts in some games. I would not say defending him but looking at it from every perspective

 

The only game he got of to a good start in was the Monday night game against Philadelphia last year and the only reason he did that is because we kept running the same counter play over and over again until Philadelphia figured it out and stopped it after halftime.