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The Grigson / Pagano saga (merged)


Dustin

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http://espn.go.com/blog/indianapolis-colts/post/_/id/15392/colts-gm-ryan-grigson-and-coach-chuck-pagano-have-a-toxic-relationship

 

Not really much new info here. 

 

Mod edit: Several threads started over the past couple days have been merged here, and this thread is pinned to the top of the page. Please continue to post new info to this thread for the next few days. This will be unpinned once news breaks on Sunday or Monday. Thank you.

Edited by Superman
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Of course its toxic.  Six months ago, one wanted a contract extension and the other said  "No".  Where's the news?

 

Hey journalists...Why didn't Pagano get more than a one year offer last summer, after the team went to the AFCCG?  An article like that might actually provide information.

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Stuff gets old.  And without knowing what is going on, I tend to side with Pagano.  If you ask yourself who has done more with the resources they have, I would say it is Pagano.  Grigson can basically do as he wants and he misses more than he hits.  Pagano has to deal with what Grigson gives him and with injuries and they still somehow might end up 8-8.  I think most teams would have tanked the season.   So when I hear Grigson is going to stay because he gets along well Irsay family, that is just stupid.  We are in the winning business, not the feel good business.

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9 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

Stuff gets old.  And without knowing what is going on, I tend to side with Pagano.  If you ask yourself who has done more with the resources they have, I would say it is Pagano.  Grigson can basically do as he wants and he misses more than he hits.  Pagano has to deal with what Grigson gives him and with injuries and they still somehow might end up 8-8.  I think most teams would have tanked the season.   So when I hear Grigson is going to stay because he gets along well Irsay family, that is just stupid.  We are in the winning business, not the feel good business.

Good points, but I wouldn't get too excited about Wells writing the "gets along with the family" part.  I'm sure its not because he yuks it up and enjoys rock music history...which is what bitter folks, like Mike Wells, usually blame stuff on.....that he's Irsay's golfing buddy or something. 

 

He probably gets along because the Irsay's think he's doing a good job.  If they didn't, they probably wouldn't get along so well.

 

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I always have to wonder.  What I have heard from anyone who has ever worked with him is that Pagano is one of the easiest people to work with and get along with.  So what does that say about Grigson?  And why the heck would any coach want to work with Grigson knowing in a year he could be gone, which means coach would likely be replaced too.

 

I think Grigson goes if Pagano does

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2 minutes ago, lennymoore24 said:

I always have to wonder.  What I have heard from anyone who has ever worked with him is that Pagano is one of the easiest people to work with and get along with.  So what does that say about Grigson?  And why the heck would any coach want to work with Grigson knowing in a year he could be gone, which means coach would likely be replaced too.

 

I think Grigson goes if Pagano does

I think they both get a contract extension this offseason.

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4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think they both get a contract extension this offseason.

I see 2 options

 

 

Both gone

 

Or 

 

Both resigned /extended.

 

I don't see one going and the other staying. I just don't see that happening. But I've been wrong before.

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5 minutes ago, csmopar said:

I see 2 options

 

 

Both gone

 

Or 

 

Both resigned /extended.

 

I don't see one going and the other staying. I just don't see that happening. But I've been wrong before.

There may be more than a few coaches who would have no problem with Grigson, we simply don't know.

 

But I think your scenarios are the most likely.

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4 minutes ago, DougDew said:

I think they both get a contract extension this offseason.

I would not be tooo opposed to this, though I would rather see Grigs go IF it is true he is making

coaching decisions.  2013 was not a good year for his drafting, but overall he has not been

terrible.  The lack of talent he has had for the O-Line is my main beef against him.  Also wasn't

happy about Dorsett being picked in the 1st round.

 

I really want to see what ChuckZinski have to offer with a full year without Pep.  The one game

that they had with Luck was like night and day.  If we get the offense clicking the defense will look better.

Of course, if we had a better O-Line the offense would look way better...

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6 minutes ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

I would not be too opposed to this, though I would rather see Grigs go IF it is true he is making coaching decisions.  2013 was not a good year for his drafting, but overall he has not been terrible.  The lack of talent he has had for the O-Line is my main beef against him.  Also wasn't happy about Dorsett being picked in the 1st round.

 

I really want to see what ChuckZinski have to offer with a full year without Pep.  The one game that they had with Luck was like night and day.  If we get the offense clicking the defense will look better.  Of course, if we had a better O-Line the offense would look way better...

I think we can see steady progress with the defense.  Going from where it was to where it is now seems fairly transparent.

 

OTOH, the offense has been hard to figure.  In the past, it piled up great stats, yet failed against good defenses, sometimes very badly.  And this year, its been bad all season.  Consistent professional experience would be welcomed, IMO.

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I think it boils down to Grigson being difficult to work with and Grigson really thinking/observing that Chuck is in over his head. Grigson might get along fine with another personality. I don't believe the no coach would want to work with Grigson nonsense. I do believe Chuck and Grigson are not a good pair. 

 

Chuck is gone, and I 100% support that. He doesn't have the tools to take the team to the next level. I supported him until this season. I'm on the fence about Grigson. To me, I think the staff failed to develop young players, more than young players having no talent. The best course of action, IMO, is Irsay hiring a new coach and then making a decision on Grigson based in part on that coach's desires.

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7 minutes ago, Larry Horseman said:

I think it boils down to Grigson being difficult to work with and Grigson really thinking/observing that Chuck is in over his head. Grigson might get along fine with another personality. I don't believe the no coach would want to work with Grigson nonsense. I do believe Chuck and Grigson are not a good pair. 

 

Chuck is gone, and I 100% support that. He doesn't have the tools to take the team to the next level. I supported him until this season. I'm on the fence about Grigson. To me, I think the staff failed to develop young players, more than young players having no talent. The best course of action, IMO, is Irsay hiring a new coach and then making a decision on Grigson based in part on that coach's desires.

?.....I'm not sure what you meant by that but I'll guess that you meant that Grigson might think that Chuck is in over his head and therefore meddles in the coaching decisions?

 

I'll respectfully disagree with your thinking that another coach would be OK with this.

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38 minutes ago, MB-ColtsFan said:

I would not be tooo opposed to this, though I would rather see Grigs go IF it is true he is making

coaching decisions.  2013 was not a good year for his drafting, but overall he has not been

terrible.  The lack of talent he has had for the O-Line is my main beef against him.  Also wasn't

happy about Dorsett being picked in the 1st round.

 

I really want to see what ChuckZinski have to offer with a full year without Pep.  The one game

that they had with Luck was like night and day.  If we get the offense clicking the defense will look better.

Of course, if we had a better O-Line the offense would look way better...

I do believe Grigson steps in on personnel line ups and such , I think that satele was a Grigson power play , keeping him starting so I believe it and I don't want any gm like that 

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13 minutes ago, theanarchist said:

?.....I'm not sure what you meant by that but I'll guess that you meant that Grigson might think that Chuck is in over his head and therefore meddles in the coaching decisions?

 

I'll respectfully disagree with your thinking that another coach would be OK with this.

 

I'll clarify. Grigs is abrasive and bully-ish, Chuck is the opposite. Grigs thinks Chuck is not a good HC, Chuck thinks the opposite. This whole relationship thing isn't rocket science. Business is about relationships and Grigs and Chuck are miles apart at this point. One or both have to go and relationships are always a two way street so both are to blame. 

 

I think the meddling in coaching decisions in overblown/under analyzed by Holder (he is terrible, IMO). There's not some Irsay/Grigs agreement that he has say in X,Y,Z when it comes to who starts on Sundays. Again, whatever meddling took place is most likely a result of a lack of confidence and trust between the two parties and the two parties being new to their respective positions. The meddling in and of itself isn't significant. The fact it points to a poor relationship is what is significant. I would state without knowing but with great confidence, that every GM in the league states who they would like to have on the field, and how much sway that has varies from team to team (just like every coach states who they would like on the roster, and how much sway that has varies from team to team). In a healthy relationship there is give and take from both parties; a willingness to listen and respond; and the ability to state when you were wrong and move forward. It is obvious that Grigs and Chuck don't have that, but we don't know the full extent as to why that is the case. 

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Not shooting the messenger, but yeah, that was a lot of nothing.

Though, if Chuck really did say that he'll fight his keester off to remain the Colts HC, that pokes a big hole in my belief that Chuck just didn't want to coach anymore.

 

Interesting times ahead.......or not.

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1 hour ago, Larry Horseman said:

 

I'll clarify. Grigs is abrasive and bully-ish, Chuck is the opposite. Grigs thinks Chuck is not a good HC, Chuck thinks the opposite. This whole relationship thing isn't rocket science. Business is about relationships and Grigs and Chuck are miles apart at this point. One or both have to go and relationships are always a two way street so both are to blame. 

 

I think the meddling in coaching decisions in overblown/under analyzed by Holder (he is terrible, IMO). There's not some Irsay/Grigs agreement that he has say in X,Y,Z when it comes to who starts on Sundays. Again, whatever meddling took place is most likely a result of a lack of confidence and trust between the two parties and the two parties being new to their respective positions. The meddling in and of itself isn't significant. The fact it points to a poor relationship is what is significant. I would state without knowing but with great confidence, that every GM in the league states who they would like to have on the field, and how much sway that has varies from team to team (just like every coach states who they would like on the roster, and how much sway that has varies from team to team). In a healthy relationship there is give and take from both parties; a willingness to listen and respond; and the ability to state when you were wrong and move forward. It is obvious that Grigs and Chuck don't have that, but we don't know the full extent as to why that is the case. 

Very good post. 

 

The whole rift thing seems simply like Grigs not having confidence in Chuck...and Chuck knowing it..combined with differences in personalities.  Grigs feels like he has to step in to make meddling decisions that he may not even want to make, but feels like he has to make.   Not just in sports, but when you are in charge of a team, you can't set idly by and let someone fail to the detriment of the team, even though you know yourself that its not your job to make those calls.  The meddling in and of itself is not relevant.

 

And if Irsay and Grigson get along, Irsay probably shares that opinion of Chuck, which is why he was offered only a minimum contract.  This isn't rocket science.

 

 

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Says grigs will help but Irsay will be heavily looking for a head coach and if the head coach has a GM prefrences than bye bye grigs

Just now, OffensivelyPC said:

Says Grigs "will help with coach search." Could mean he is picking his preference. Doubt that it means he is 

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3 minutes ago, buccolts said:

'Cause, if you wait too long, the deed is done, and you missed the opportunity to say 'I told you so'.

Maybe so, even if we fans are expecting it, just would think to wait the season is officially over. Maybe Irsay already has the the new coach waiting.

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2 minutes ago, twfish said:

Says grigs will help but Irsay will be heavily looking for a head coach and if the head coach has a GM prefrences than bye bye grigs

I doubt that. How do you think that conversation went down. "hey, want to help me find a coach? You'll be GM unless he wants your job. " Like he would ever be candid, which makes it pointless to even have him be involved.

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There is some new information here, or at least new opinion, that Grigson will stay on at least for a while, and that his permanent retention will be based upon the new coaches preference.

 

I've been saying yesterday and today, there are probably many HC candidates who would have no problem working with Grigson.  For one, he doesn't hamstring his HC with vet FA that has to play because of a bunch of guaranteed money.

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That is nonsense.  Grigson is the person that needs to go!  Pagano has proven he can coach, especially holding this years locker room together when everything was going against them.

 

Grigson has proven only that he is learning on the job and is taking this team down with his poor personnel decisions.  This is ridiculous!!!!  Who proven are they going to get to replace the coach.

 

I expected more from Isrey....I do not care if Grigson is his boy.....this is a business.  If true I guess the only way for a long time season ticket holder like I am is to give my tickets back to the organization.  Hopefully many more will also follow suit.

 

Performance should determine someones job, if you truly want to advance as an organization.  Pagano has proven his.  Grison has only proven he is buddy with the Irseys.  You can do what you want as the owner....so can we as ticket holders.

 

Pathetic

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11 minutes ago, Tyler Dewar said:

There really isn't anything in that article that is news. It's more or less the same stuff that has been cycling around for months. If Pagano is gone, Grigson better be right behind him.

That's what I was thinking. I think we've known this for several months now. 

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1 minute ago, RockThatBlue said:

That's what I was thinking. I think we've known this for several months now. 

 

Also, why would Grigson help find a good coach to replace Pagano if he knows he is or could be, out the door anyways? He'd be the kind of guy that would vouch for Chip Kelley and then leave with his middle fingers in the air.

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