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Colts and Injury Reporting


SilentHill

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:ranton:

 

So, is anyone else kind of agitated that the Colts are so very very vague with their Injuries?

 

Luck had a "Sore Shoulder" and missed two games earlier this season, which was later revealed as subluxation of the shoulder, which would warrant the two week time frame he was out, but the Colts just told us he was "Day to Day"

 

Toler had a Neck Injury in the pre-season and Pagano kept saying he was "week to week" with no timetable for return when in face he missed 4 games,

 

Luck's kidney laceration and abdominal tear have him listed as out 2-6 weeks, a very large time table indeed, and it's been reported that the Colts expected him to miss at least 4 games, so why not just come out and say 4-6 weeks?

 

Now Castanzo is "Week to Week"

 

and the list goes on and on, and on.

 

Is it really that important to keep opposing teams guessing what "week to week" means? Especially after it's become apparent that week to week and day to day means OUT? As a fan I'd like to hear some realistic timetables for a return on our injured players.

 

:rantoff:

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For as long as I can remember, it's been a cat & mouse game with injuries how they're reported and perceived by others. Yes, it can be an advantageous tool to the team that is reporting them. It can also be an advantage to opposing teams to prepare for the worse case scenario as to not be fooled by them as well. Hence, cat & mouse. But, for the most part, teams are very forthcoming about true injury.

It doesn't "psych" the other teams out by definition. Nor, does it come into a dishonest listing per. I think NFL teams try to use a little variety in their reporting and listings of injury to keep things "off-guard" as it were. Full disclosure every single time for every single injury is just not the way NFL teams operate. They have standards they must adhere to. But, that's it. No need to expound beyond their expectation by NFL rules and regulations.

IMHO, of course.

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Is there a reason to be ridiculously vague? I really don't see any advantage to it.

It would be kind of funny if a GM or HC was brutally honest for once. Something like this: [Hypothetical only. No specific team intended here] 

 

Our QB can't throw off his plant foot, our RB is blind as a bat, our WRs can't get any separation on slightly above average DBs, our TEs usually run the wrong routes, & even when we do get into the end zone they flip into it for no good reason, screw up their backs, & mess up their knees just because that's what we do & who we are. We make the Browns look SB bound baby!  :lol:

 

Oh, you wanted a serious answer SH? Give me a moment to collect myself...

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competitive advantage would be my guess. every team does it

Now, you sound like my mother when she says "If your friend told you to jump into the lake, would you? Go against conformity not with it." 

 

That depends on 2 things: How sweaty I am & how attractive the person asking me to take the plunge is...Just saying.  :P  Just messing around CR91. SW1 is in 1 of my sarcastic moods right now. 

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If my QB has bruised ribs, why would i want opponents to know?

Being "honest" about some injuries can hurt you.

Opponents target those injuries.

The ONLY reason to show injuries is tor GAMBLING purposes.

You dont wanna tigk off the gamblers and fantasy geeks.

 

But the NFL requires disclosure of any notable injury.  You don't have to be specific on the extent of injury, but you also have to disclose  What and whether the player practiced, and to what extent (DNP, Limited, Full)  and then on Friday, designated for potential % of play on Sunday, 

 

Out   = 0% chance of playing

Doubtful = 25% chance (study showed only 3% played)

Questionable  = 50%  (Study shows 55% played)

Probable = 75%  (Study show 90% played)

 

If a team doesn't disclose according to these guidelines, the NFL can punish the team.

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Okay, out of respect for SH, I will get serious because I like the guy too much to derail his thread. I agree with Jvan. There's an artform to injury reports what you don't disclosure is more telling than what you do. 

 

Say as little as you are mandated too just so opposing defenses can't zero in on broken ribs of your QB or step on their leg like Ndamukong Suh did to Aaron Rogers back in his Detroit Lions days as a pass rusher. 

 

Wool Magnet is right too. Bookies love injury reports just to rake in the dow over the holidays from desperate sport saps.   

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But the NFL requires disclosure of any notable injury.  You don't have to be specific on the extent of injury, but you also have to disclose  What and whether the player practiced, and to what extent (DNP, Limited, Full)  and then on Friday, designated for potential % of play on Sunday, 

 

Out   = 0% chance of playing

Doubtful = 25% chance (study showed only 3% played)

Questionable  = 50%  (Study shows 55% played)

Probable = 75%  (Study show 90% played)

 

If a team doesn't disclose according to these guidelines, the NFL can punish the team.

You do a nice job of explaining procedures in easy to follow terms CBFL. But, I must admit the words I bolded reminded me of comedian Frank Caliendo pretending to be John Madden on David Letterman once. 

 

I don't remember the skit exactly other than "Probable means I probably don't know what the hades I'm talking about. Questionable means my accuracy on anything I say. And Doubtful means that once I'm done talking it's doubtful that you'll ever invite me back on your show Dave."  haha

 

Nothing against Coach Madden, but I just love Frank's interaction with Dave as John here. 

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But the NFL requires disclosure of any notable injury. You don't have to be specific on the extent of injury, but you also have to disclose What and whether the player practiced, and to what extent (DNP, Limited, Full) and then on Friday, designated for potential % of play on Sunday,

Out = 0% chance of playing

Doubtful = 25% chance (study showed only 3% played)

Questionable = 50% (Study shows 55% played)

Probable = 75% (Study show 90% played)

If a team doesn't disclose according to these guidelines, the NFL can punish the team.

Like i said..... Gambling.

If the NFL rictates it, you can bet its about $.

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Like i said..... Gambling.

If the NFL rictates it, you can bet its about $.

 

You should have throw out the quote from The Last Boyscout..... :)

 

Jimmy Dix:  "then I get a call from the league, and they're saying," hey kid, your career is over, I ask "why?" Because you gamble", why is there an injury report in pro football? Nobody else has one, only pro football does."

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Like i said..... Gambling.

If the NFL rictates it, you can bet its about $.

 

Indeed, you can bet Roger Goodell doesn't want any hint of possible insider info allowing sharps in making money off his sport that the average Joe cannot get access to. 

 

On a side note, He and the League are all for year long fantasy.  Anything that helps people become more interactive and engaged in the sport, fine.  OTOH, they are much more cautious and leery of daily fantasy.  From some of the items I've read, they are beginning to feel DFS is more about trying to make money off of the sport than having fun making and managing your team and players throughout a season.

 

My question is this then-

 

What is the goal of a person's year long fantasy team?

What is the goal of a person's daily (weekly?) fantasy team?

 

So the NFL is for year long fantasy, but cautious on daily fantasy, and waiting out all of the state and Federal legal challenges Fan Duel and Draft Kings  will face.

 

http://awfulannouncing.com/2015/roger-goodell-beginning-to-distance-nfl-from-daily-fantasy.html

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People really blow the "competitive advantage " thing out of proportion. Real coaches watch film and study the whole team and prepare as if everyone will play.

When a banged up player plays, they're going to be attacked just as hard as if they were healthy. No one is saying "Oh and btw guys, Romo is back after breaking his collarbone so let's tackle him extra hard". You want to destroy the QB on impact regardless of his health.

Plus it's not like teams won't find out regardless. That's why you seem some teams come out and tell you how extensive the injury is. They've realized it makes very little difference.

Only time it matters is when you have to prepare for a player you haven't played against before. There's a difference in preparing for Luke McCown as opposed to Manziel.

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What gambling or even fantasy advantage is there to knowing how long Castanzo is actually slated to be out?

Because it could mean a less effective run game and more pressure on the QB. Which effects Frank Gore's/Hasselbeck's value and gives the Colts less of an advantage in the games he is out.

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What gambling or even fantasy advantage is there to knowing how long Castanzo is actually slated to be out?

 

First off, that scenario isn't the only information that can affect games! Here is a hypothetical for you-

 

Star player on a team goes out of a game late. But the NFL doesn't have rules in place to report injuries in game or after to the league and media.  So reporters ask post game, and the team response is he got a little nicked up, and was removed as cautionary, and is getting treatment and they believe he will be fully ready for next game. But in truth, star player has a torn or broken   ______ and Docs are telling the team star player might be out 4-6 weeks or more.  Star player's team plays their toughest opponent of the season the upcoming Sunday. Since there are no official NFL rules to report whether star play practiced or not, and to what degree, folks still believe Star Player will be 100% (or close to it) against their huge rival. the weeks practices were  all no media affairs, so no public figures can verify or deny the team reports.

 

Late Friday night, a team source confides in a close friend about star players status, and will not be in the lineup on Sunday.  Close friend let's it slip to few others friends and then they decide to use that information on a Vegas bet {which set the line also based upon the teams word Star player would be good to go} against the conventional wisdom. 

 

Game starts, Star player is not only not in the starting lineup, he is not even dressed out!  Team loses to rival, but insider info guys that got the secret info had laid down big money based on knowing that info and struck it rich.  At some point, it is found out what happened there and it's reported to the commissioner....

 

Voila! New rules get instituted post haste. Like - 'All injuries that could hamper a player's level of execution or their ability to be in the lineup must now be reported, including their practice participation level during the following week.'

 

Or, what if pro gambler gets close to some NFL players, and bribes them to lay down in a game, so huge money can be made?  Well that happened in the NFL in 1947, here's a link to the Chicago Tribune archived article that was printed in their newspaper:

 

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1947/01/09/page/29/article/convict-gambler-two-giants-suspended     {Look at the two articles on the far right side of the page}

 

Make no mistake... the NFL doesn't want gambling on NFL games to stop, as there is too much money to be made.  They just want to have at least the appearance of an arms length distance between them and Vegas, Fantasy, and especially DFS now.  And the appearance that they want any important information is just as accessible to the media and average Joe / Jane as it is to the 'insiders'.

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:ranton:

 

So, is anyone else kind of agitated that the Colts are so very very vague with their Injuries?

 

Luck had a "Sore Shoulder" and missed two games earlier this season, which was later revealed as subluxation of the shoulder, which would warrant the two week time frame he was out, but the Colts just told us he was "Day to Day"

 

Toler had a Neck Injury in the pre-season and Pagano kept saying he was "week to week" with no timetable for return when in face he missed 4 games,

 

Luck's kidney laceration and abdominal tear have him listed as out 2-6 weeks, a very large time table indeed, and it's been reported that the Colts expected him to miss at least 4 games, so why not just come out and say 4-6 weeks?

 

Now Castanzo is "Week to Week"

 

and the list goes on and on, and on.

 

Is it really that important to keep opposing teams guessing what "week to week" means? Especially after it's become apparent that week to week and day to day means OUT? As a fan I'd like to hear some realistic timetables for a return on our injured players.

 

:rantoff:

Apparently, all injuries are carefully and clinically evaluated by Monty Python's Black Knight (from Monty Python and the Holy Grail). "'Tis but a scratch".

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First off, that scenario isn't the only information that can affect games! Here is a hypothetical for you-

Star player on a team goes out of a game late. But the NFL doesn't have rules in place to report injuries in game or after to the league and media. So reporters ask post game, and the team response is he got a little nicked up, and was removed as cautionary, and is getting treatment and they believe he will be fully ready for next game. But in truth, star player has a torn or broken ______ and Docs are telling the team star player might be out 4-6 weeks or more. Star player's team plays their toughest opponent of the season the upcoming Sunday. Since there are no official NFL rules to report whether star play practiced or not, and to what degree, folks still believe Star Player will be 100% (or close to it) against their huge rival. the weeks practices were all no media affairs, so no public figures can verify or deny the team reports.

Late Friday night, a team source confides in a close friend about star players status, and will not be in the lineup on Sunday. Close friend let's it slip to few others friends and then they decide to use that information on a Vegas bet {which set the line also based upon the teams word Star player would be good to go} against the conventional wisdom.

Game starts, Star player is not only not in the starting lineup, he is not even dressed out! Team loses to rival, but insider info guys that got the secret info had laid down big money based on knowing that info and struck it rich. At some point, it is found out what happened there and it's reported to the commissioner....

Voila! New rules get instituted post haste. Like - 'All injuries that could hamper a player's level of execution or their ability to be in the lineup must now be reported, including their practice participation level during the following week.'

Or, what if pro gambler gets close to some NFL players, and bribes them to lay down in a game, so huge money can be made? Well that happened in the NFL in 1947, here's a link to the Chicago Tribune archived article that was printed in their newspaper:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1947/01/09/page/29/article/convict-gambler-two-giants-suspended {Look at the two articles on the far right side of the page}

Make no mistake... the NFL doesn't want gambling on NFL games to stop, as there is too much money to be made. They just want to have at least the appearance of an arms length distance between them and Vegas, Fantasy, and especially DFS now. And the appearance that they want any important information is just as accessible to the media and average Joe / Jane as it is to the 'insiders'.

Thanks for the entertaining read, but it has nothing to do with my gripe, I want the injuries reported accurately, with real tme tables for an estimated return, my gripe is with pagano and his "day to day" and "week to week" answers to players injuries,
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Thanks for the entertaining read, but it has nothing to do with my gripe, I want the injuries reported accurately, with real tme tables for an estimated return, my gripe is with pagano and his "day to day" and "week to week" answers to players injuries,

 

What difference does it make? They said Luck would be out 2-6 weeks, and we still don't know how long he'll actually be out. 

 

The day to day and week to week designations are actually more than the team is required to say. All they really have to give are injury reports, not anticipated return times. But those designations tell you how often the player is being evaluated for a potential return. When you hear AC is week to week, you automatically know that he's not going to play this week. Day to day means 'we're looking at him every day and we'll see if he's ready to go by game time.' They really don't know how long it's going to take before a player is ready to play again. Even this year, we've seen players listed as probable on Friday who then didn't play on Sunday.

 

Last thing, it's not just the Colts and Pagano who report injuries this way. Teams control injury information carefully for specific reasons. You might not care about those reasons, but that's not all that important.

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It would be kind of funny if a GM or HC was brutally honest for once. Something like this: [Hypothetical only. No specific team intended here]

Our QB can't throw off his plant foot, our RB is blind as a bat, our WRs can't get any separation on slightly above average DBs, our TEs usually run the wrong routes, & even when we do get into the end zone they flip into it for no good reason, screw up their backs, & mess up their knees just because that's what we do & who we are. We make the Browns look SB bound baby! :lol:

Oh, you wanted a serious answer SH? Give me a moment to collect myself...

So,you miss John McKay.

Who doesn't. :)

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What difference does it make? They said Luck would be out 2-6 weeks, and we still don't know how long he'll actually be out. 

 

The day to day and week to week designations are actually more than the team is required to say. All they really have to give are injury reports, not anticipated return times. But those designations tell you how often the player is being evaluated for a potential return. When you hear AC is week to week, you automatically know that he's not going to play this week. Day to day means 'we're looking at him every day and we'll see if he's ready to go by game time.' They really don't know how long it's going to take before a player is ready to play again. Even this year, we've seen players listed as probable on Friday who then didn't play on Sunday.

 

Last thing, it's not just the Colts and Pagano who report injuries this way. Teams control injury information carefully for specific reasons. You might not care about those reasons, but that's not all that important.

 

Exactly.  Besides, predicting the future health from injury is not always exact.  Yes, there is history and averages that guide one to intelligently anticipate potential time frames.   But recovery times can vary among people and other times there are setbacks.  IE: bone fracture. Recovery depends upon your age, your health, the kind of fracture, and the particular bone involved. And you are right, the teams do not have disclose that rehab time frame estimate.

 

I think the issue is those reports don't specify to many fans who plays and who doesn't on Sunday, or exactly what day to expect to see your guy back in the lineup. Like Luck.  Once the team announced the 2 - 6 weeks, many here predicted Luck's toughness would have him back in the lineup by the second week (didn't happen).  I knew it was ambitious of the Colts and said it was at least 4 weeks and possibly for his type of injury more like at least 6; based upon my knowledge and experience.  My advice to fans is not to pay attention to the time frame estimates given by the team, but look at Superman's illustrations above along the injury designation report that is put out and updated (I believe) from Friday on up until game day-

 

 

{my ratings]:

 

IA - Inactive.  Player is officially inactive for the upcoming game and will not play

O - Out.         Not scheduled to play

D - Doubtful.  There is a 97% chance the player will not play

Q - Questionable.  There is a 55% chance player will play - basically a coin flip

P - Probable.  Player is very likely { > 90% } to play in the upcoming game.

 

Also be leery of any football player suffering {especially high} ankle sprains, foot injuries (IE: plantar fasciitis), or turf toe.  These are more debilitating than they appear, and can be lingering as well. Pay attention to physicians assessments, even ones not directly connected to the patient/team.  Their body of knowledge will get you closer to the real answer than teams proclamations form the HC.

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So,you miss John McKay.

Who doesn't. :)

 

"We didn't tackle well today, but we made for it by not blocking." 

 

"When I was duck hunting with Bear Bryant, he shot at one but it kept flying. 'John,' he said, 'there flies a dead duck.' That's confidence."

 

"Opening games make me nervous. To tell you the truth, I'd rather open with our second game." -- on opening games  LOL!

 

Just so many!

 

And I'm going to bust this paraphrase out-

 

"He may be the only kicker to kick and collect social security at the same time." --on 42-year-old kicker Adam Vinatieri  (original was Jan Stenarud at 41)  haha

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I'm no Pagano fan but support every effort he makes to hide injuries. If that results in some punitive action by the league office some day, so be it. But the last thing any coach should do is put bullseyes on their players' injured bodies.

 

I know, it's easy for us fans to be cavalier when it concerns others pocketbook.  I'm sure Pagano and Grigson would care, though.

 

Case in point.  In 2008, Brett Favre had the Jets at 8 - 3 and SB aspirations.  Then the team fell apart the rest of the season.  Turns out, Brett had a torn biceps tendon in his right arm confirmed by an MRI.  Because it required no treatment, Mangini failed to disclose it to the League.  The Jets should have reported 'Favre :Right arm - Probable' to finish the season and be done with it.  But they did not.  Next year in Minnesota, Bret Favre told reporters he played in great pain at the end of last season when the  8 - 3 Jets had lost 4 of 5.  The league took notice, investigated and found the truth.  They fined the Jets $75,000, the GM $25,000 and Eric Mangini $25,000.  I'll bet Ryan Grigson and Chuck Pagano would not like to fork over (greater than) $25 grand apiece because they wanted to hide a vague disclosure of a players injury.  25 large is big, and I'll bet the next fine for doing that again will be larger, maybe double.  This actually falls into one of Goodell's 'Integrity of the Game' items.  And we know how he is on those.  IE:  Tom Brady court case, which the NFL has completed all filings in appeal of the ruling so it is still ongoing as far as the league is concerned.

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