Nick Saban

[JPFolks]

That is why your logic is flawed.  you want to look at actual experience but then say to look at an OC or DC.  They have no actual HC experience so how can you look at that?

 

Also, your logic is flawed but all you want to look at is a small portion of a resume adn you stated with Harbuagh... you would look at his success in SF and Stanford but for Saban you only want to look at his lack of success in the NFL and not is success in college.

 

On the flip side, I never said don't look at his Miami experience, only that his experience 10 years ago on his first try should not be the sole determining factor in whether or not he should get another shot in the NFL.

I think a current successful NFL OC/DC > a current successful College Coach.   And you're combining two separate arguments.  One is, whether Saban should be hired as our coach over Pagano... the answer is a resounding NO as no one has offered any supporting argument that Saban is a better bet.   I have argued that Pagano IS a better bet based on experience and results.  When asked who I would hire, there are not Coach Pagano's or successful coaches who have never had a losing record nor missed the playoffs to choose from.  So once that is out, OC/DC's are next out of neccessity.  It's not that complicated.  If we must fire Pagano (or not resign him in essence) then the only quality guy who fits what I would want is Harbaugh.  We're assuming he's not available.  So who else has been successful throughout their NFL coaching career that we could choose from that is better than what we have right now?  Next up OC/DC's.  

 

As for Saban, I am also looking at his age, his need for total control, and the stark difference between how he's had his success (in large part due to dominant recruiting classes year after year something he can't get in the NFL).   All of that adds to his failure as a head coach and for me, eliminates him.   At least I have made a multi-pronged argument which those continually arguing against me haven't done in the reverse.  

[JPFolks]

And your leaving out Seattles 2 SB appearances

No, I am saying arguing a rare exception to the rule isn't a winning argument.  There are far more failures than successes, making those two exceptions rather than the rule.  (I discount Shanahan who just demonstrated some of the worst coaching I've ever seen).  

[Coffeedrinker]

I think a current successful NFL OC/DC > a current successful College Coach.  There is not a lot of evidence to support that. And that is where you have a logical fallacy in your argument.

 

 

And you're combining two separate arguments.  One is, whether Saban should be hired as our coach over Pagano... the answer is a resounding NO as no one has offered any supporting argument that Saban is a better bet.   I have argued that Pagano IS a better bet based on experience and results.  When asked who I would hire, there are not Coach Pagano's or successful coaches who have never had a losing record nor missed the playoffs to choose from.  So once that is out, OC/DC's are next out of neccessity.  It's not that complicated.  If we must fire Pagano (or not resign him in essence) then the only quality guy who fits what I would want is Harbaugh.  We're assuming he's not available.  So who else has been successful throughout their NFL coaching career that we could choose from that is better than what we have right now?  Next up OC/DC's.  I'm not combining them.

 

As for Saban, I am also looking at his age, his need for total control, and the stark difference between how he's had his success (in large part due to dominant recruiting classes year after year something he can't get in the NFL).   All of that adds to his failure as a head coach and for me, eliminates him.   At least I have made a multi-pronged argument which those continually arguing against me haven't done in the reverse.  Some of posters have made good counter arguments... Just because you choose to ignore them does not mean they are not there.

[southwest1]

No, thank you.

 

Great college coach, not so much in the NFL.

 

Plus, he is royalty in Alabama.  Why leave?

Exactly right GC. If I was as beloved as Saban is in "Roll Tide" country as he is, the only way I'd leave is if I was fired or I collapsed from a heart attack. 

 

It's better to be a hammer head shark in a small pond than a goldfish in the vast ocean. 

[Coffeedrinker]

Exactly right GC. If I was as beloved as Saban is in "Roll Tide" country as he is, the only way I'd leave is if I was fired or I collapsed from a heart attack. 

 

It's better to be a hammer head shark in a small pond than a goldfish in the vast ocean. 

No it's not.  A Hammer head shark in a small pond will soon run out of food and die.

 

Just sayin'

[Dustin]

No it's not. A Hammer head shark in a small pond will soon run out of food and die.

Just sayin'

And a goldfish can't live in seawater lol

[Coffeedrinker]

And a goldfish can't live in seawater lol

I guess it's not good to be either.

[BOTT]

I think a current successful NFL OC/DC > a current successful College Coach.   And you're combining two separate arguments.  One is, whether Saban should be hired as our coach over Pagano... the answer is a resounding NO as no one has offered any supporting argument that Saban is a better bet.   I have argued that Pagano IS a better bet based on experience and results.  When asked who I would hire, there are not Coach Pagano's or successful coaches who have never had a losing record nor missed the playoffs to choose from.  So once that is out, OC/DC's are next out of neccessity.  It's not that complicated.  If we must fire Pagano (or not resign him in essence) then the only quality guy who fits what I would want is Harbaugh.  We're assuming he's not available.  So who else has been successful throughout their NFL coaching career that we could choose from that is better than what we have right now?  Next up OC/DC's.  

 

As for Saban, I am also looking at his age, his need for total control, and the stark difference between how he's had his success (in large part due to dominant recruiting classes year after year something he can't get in the NFL).   All of that adds to his failure as a head coach and for me, eliminates him.   At least I have made a multi-pronged argument which those continually arguing against me haven't done in the reverse.

It's not that hard for you because you are looking at it far to simplistically. You are basically convinced if one has a good record he is good, if he had a mediocre record he is mediocre. That's the kind of thinking that convinces people Tim Tebow can play. Hell, lets hire Wade Phillips. He has a winning record and has playoff experience.

[BOTT]

No, I am saying arguing a rare exception to the rule isn't a winning argument.  There are far more failures than successes, making those two exceptions rather than the rule.  (I discount Shanahan who just demonstrated some of the worst coaching I've ever seen).

There are far more failures no matter who you hire....coordinators, college coaches, etc. the vast majority of them fail. The guys who succeed usually have something in common....a QB.

[JPFolks]

Some of posters have made good counter arguments...

 

 

Isn't that the point of a message board? People debate, without personal attacks and hatred, differing viewpoints? You seem to think that because you're arguing a different viewpoint and others are arguing their viewpoints, that I somehow have less right to do the same? Have you ever argued a point where multiple people disagreed with you?  Did you stop debating it when people continue to respond to you? If someone is taking the time to respond, I will try to follow up in kind.  Again, that's the point isn't it? 

[JPFolks]

It's not that hard for you because you are looking at it far to simplistically. You are basically convinced if one has a good record he is good, if he had a mediocre record he is mediocre. That's the kind of thinking that convinces people Tim Tebow can play. Hell, lets hire Wade Phillips. He has a winning record and has playoff experience.

You act is if I haven't supplied multiple reasons against hiring Saban.  That's simply not true.  I can't help it you only choose to focus on a single one of them.  I have gone into age, the difference he'll have to deal with from getting a large deep recruiting class each year that ranks near the top of the country so that Alabama has far more talent on their roster than most people they play.  

 

If he was in the NFL, due to his success, his picks would always be at the bottom of each round and he wouldn't have the chance to add massive numbers of A+ players each season like he can in college.  I think a college coach who brings a program up to the top with far less talent has more appropriate skills than Saban has.  I also brought up the fact that he hasn't shown an ability, even with such a recruiting advantage, the ability to find, develop or produce a great QB, nor does he feature a strong QB in his offenses.  That position for him is considerably different than he'd have with our best player, Andrew Luck.  In fact, that was the first part of the entire discussion.  

 

And over the entire discussion, there's been more issues such as the fact that he will expect far more control of the entire organization which I think is a mistake to give.  So why ignore all of those other parts of the debate and inaccurately depict me as someone who only focuses on a single factor ?  It isn't remotely true.  It isn't remotely simplistic.  Disagree all you want, but be honest about it. 

[JPFolks]

There are far more failures no matter who you hire....coordinators, college coaches, etc. the vast majority of them fail. The guys who succeed usually have something in common....a QB.

Well then that suggests it simply doesn't matter who you hire, as long as you have a QB.  Some coaches MAKE the QB, such as Jim Harbaugh and Kaepernick.  He was never a great player, it was an illusion that Harbaugh created with excellent coaching.  Harbaugh leaves and Kaepernick is exposed as being so terrible that Blaine Gabbert is a better option to the team.  

 

That is actually one argument you can make against Pagano in that Luck really seemed to regress this season, though it is unclear what his health has been all season, something we'll likely never know.  

[RockThatBlue]

Sorry, but if you can't look at someone's ACTUAL experience as a head coach in the NFL to inform you how he may operate the next time, then what are you supposed to look at? So if Harbaugh was available, we shouldn't consider his success in SF or at Stanford right? The logic is flawed.

[BOTT]

You act is if I haven't supplied multiple reasons against hiring Saban.  That's simply not true.  I can't help it you only choose to focus on a single one of them.  I have gone into age, the difference he'll have to deal with from getting a large deep recruiting class each year that ranks near the top of the country so that Alabama has far more talent on their roster than most people they play.  

 

If he was in the NFL, due to his success, his picks would always be at the bottom of each round and he wouldn't have the chance to add massive numbers of A+ players each season like he can in college.  I think a college coach who brings a program up to the top with far less talent has more appropriate skills than Saban has.  I also brought up the fact that he hasn't shown an ability, even with such a recruiting advantage, the ability to find, develop or produce a great QB, nor does he feature a strong QB in his offenses.  That position for him is considerably different than he'd have with our best player, Andrew Luck.  In fact, that was the first part of the entire discussion.  

 

And over the entire discussion, there's been more issues such as the fact that he will expect far more control of the entire organization which I think is a mistake to give.  So why ignore all of those other parts of the debate and inaccurately depict me as someone who only focuses on a single factor ?  It isn't remotely true.  It isn't remotely simplistic.  Disagree all you want, but be honest about it.

I wasn't even talking about Saban in particular. It's your whole view on who/why to hire someone. There are reasons not to hire Saban, but not for the reasons you initially outlined.

[BOTT]

Well then that suggests it simply doesn't matter who you hire, as long as you have a QB.  Some coaches MAKE the QB, such as Jim Harbaugh and Kaepernick.  He was never a great player, it was an illusion that Harbaugh created with excellent coaching.  Harbaugh leaves and Kaepernick is exposed as being so terrible that Blaine Gabbert is a better option to the team.  

 

That is actually one argument you can make against Pagano in that Luck really seemed to regress this season, though it is unclear what his health has been all season, something we'll likely never know.

It doesn't suggest that at all. Let's just agree to disagree, cause this isn't going anywhere.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

Why?  Has that proven to win more games in the NFL?

 

Probably not. But one of Pagano's biggest criticisms on this forum is that he's a player's coach and isn't tough enough on guys when they make mistakes. I take you're not one of them.

[Jason_]

Probably not. But one of Pagano's biggest criticisms on this forum is that he's a player's coach and isn't tough enough on guys when they make mistakes. I take you're not one of them.

 

which is funny because there's not a single person on this board that truly knows how tough Pagano is or isn't on players when they make mistakes.

[Steamboat_Shaun]

If that's the type of stuff from Saban that you admire, then you'll gladly enjoy this reading material. 

 

 

http://www.sportsbybrooks.com/evans-saban-stepped-over-convulsing-player-29919

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

BTW Alabama hasn't won a championship now that the rigged BC$ has a playoff system, and no; they aren't winning it this year either. 

 

Take away the college that spends over 50+ million a year on football, and he's your average coach. 

 

I've been a pretty vocal opponent of having Saban as the next HC in Indy, and I don't particularly "admire" anything about him. You should read some of my other posts on the topic.

[Coffeedrinker]

Probably not. But one of Pagano's biggest criticisms on this forum is that he's a player's coach and isn't tough enough on guys when they make mistakes. I take you're not one of them.

How is he supposed to be "tough" on guys when they make mistakes?  Or what is he supposed to do when a guy makes a mistake?

[Jason_]

How is he supposed to be "tough" on guys when they make mistakes?  Or what is he supposed to do when a guy makes a mistake?

 

I'm fairly certain that anything short of a public caning would be considered unsatisfactory.

[Coffeedrinker]

Isn't that the point of a message board? People debate, without personal attacks and hatred, differing viewpoints? You seem to think that because you're arguing a different viewpoint and others are arguing their viewpoints, that I somehow have less right to do the same? Have you ever argued a point where multiple people disagreed with you?  Did you stop debating it when people continue to respond to you? If someone is taking the time to respond, I will try to follow up in kind.  Again, that's the point isn't it? 

I never suggested anything of the sort.  You claimed that you made a multi-pronged argument while those that disagree with you have not done the same.  I only pointed out that other people have done the same you just refuse to acknowledge that they have done so.

 

Argue any viewpoint you wish, just be man enough to admit when other people are doing the same thing.  Rather than crying foul.

[Corndog]

It's not that hard for you because you are looking at it far to simplistically. You are basically convinced if one has a good record he is good, if he had a mediocre record he is mediocre. That's the kind of thinking that convinces people Tim Tebow can play. Hell, lets hire Wade Phillips. He has a winning record and has playoff experience.

I certainly don't want Wade Phillips as a head coach, but he's a great defensive coordinator. 

[Corndog]

You act is if I haven't supplied multiple reasons against hiring Saban.  That's simply not true.  I can't help it you only choose to focus on a single one of them.  I have gone into age, the difference he'll have to deal with from getting a large deep recruiting class each year that ranks near the top of the country so that Alabama has far more talent on their roster than most people they play.  

 

If he was in the NFL, due to his success, his picks would always be at the bottom of each round and he wouldn't have the chance to add massive numbers of A+ players each season like he can in college.  I think a college coach who brings a program up to the top with far less talent has more appropriate skills than Saban has.  I also brought up the fact that he hasn't shown an ability, even with such a recruiting advantage, the ability to find, develop or produce a great QB, nor does he feature a strong QB in his offenses.  That position for him is considerably different than he'd have with our best player, Andrew Luck.  In fact, that was the first part of the entire discussion.  

 

And over the entire discussion, there's been more issues such as the fact that he will expect far more control of the entire organization which I think is a mistake to give.  So why ignore all of those other parts of the debate and inaccurately depict me as someone who only focuses on a single factor ?  It isn't remotely true.  It isn't remotely simplistic.  Disagree all you want, but be honest about it. 

All great points, his strongest point, recruiting will be null and void in the NFL.  As far as Saban's offense, he has a former NFL/USC head coach as his offensive coordinator.  Would Alabama shell out that kind of money for an OC, if Saban was good with offense?  

[BOTT]

All great points, his strongest point, recruiting will be null and void in the NFL.  As far as Saban's offense, he has a former NFL/USC head coach as his offensive coordinator.  Would Alabama shell out that kind of money for an OC, if Saban was good with offense?

So what if he has a lot of talent at Alabama. Jimmy Johnson and Pete Carroll had even more talent than Alabama while at their universities. All top level coaches at powerhouse programs have superior talent.

[JPFolks]

I wasn't even talking about Saban in particular. It's your whole view on who/why to hire someone. There are reasons not to hire Saban, but not for the reasons you initially outlined.

I outlined a long list of reasons on multiple occasions, all with legitimacy.  You claimed, after ALL my prior posts, that I looked at it too simplistically based ONLY on Win/Loss.  Go back and read what you wrote and take some responsibility for your own words.  I don't care if you love Saban and want him as coach or hate him, I stated my opinions on why we shouldn't hire him and you attempted to misrepresent what I wrote even after going back and forth with numerous reasons stated.  

[BOTT]

I outlined a long list of reasons on multiple occasions, all with legitimacy.  You claimed, after ALL my prior posts, that I looked at it too simplistically based ONLY on Win/Loss.  Go back and read what you wrote and take some responsibility for your own words.  I don't care if you love Saban and want him as coach or hate him, I stated my opinions on why we shouldn't hire him and you attempted to misrepresent what I wrote even after going back and forth with numerous reasons stated.

I know you listed other reasons for not wanting Saban, most of those were silly as well, but your overall view seems to be the above. Reasons such as "name a QB he has developed" is a legitmate to you. I didn't misrepresent anything.

[King Colt]

Fatherly advice to Saban: "Stay in school." Just because one is a successful lawyer does not mean he would be a successful accountant.

[Surge89]

This is insane lol...

To think I hated that we hired Pagano at the beginning. Slowly I shifted to we made our bed now lets lay in it, but this season at least for me screams Irsay landed a great coach. Not many teams can go through what we've had and still want to play. And this is only his "true" 3rd year as a HC. Plenty of growing to do. I hope he goes no where.

As far as Saban, I think he'd actually be successful with Luck, but it isn't worth giving up on a promising HC that we've groomed. And honestly if Grigson can learn from his mistakes I'm fine with him staying as well. I think he does have an eye for talent just let Pagano have a little bit more influence.

P.S. this is coming from someone who still disagrees with the Dorsett pick btw.

[BOTT]

Fatherly advice to Saban: "Stay in school." Just because one is a successful lawyer does not mean he would be a successful accountant.

Not really a good analogy.

[BOTT]

This is insane lol...

To think I hated that we hired Pagano at the beginning. Slowly I shifted to we made our bed now lets lay in it, but this season at least for me screams Irsay landed a great coach. Not many teams can go through what we've had and still want to play. And this is only his "true" 3rd year as a HC. Plenty of growing to do. I hope he goes no where.

As far as Saban, I think he'd actually be successful with Luck, but it isn't worth giving up on a promising HC that we've groomed. And honestly if Grigson can learn from his mistakes I'm fine with him staying as well. I think he does have an eye for talent just let Pagano have a little bit more influence.

P.S. this is coming from someone who still disagrees with the Dorsett pick btw.

What has been so great about this season that makes you want to keep Chuck?

[Surge89]

What has been so great about this season that makes you want to keep Chuck?

 

Because this season has been filled with adversity.  Tons and tons.  Not only external but internal as well.  And a sign of a good coach is a team that can handle said adversity and still look like they want to play for him.  The results may not be on the field yet and they may be inconsistent but at least they don't give up a whole game. 

[BOTT]

Because this season has been filled with adversity.  Tons and tons.  Not only external but internal as well.  And a sign of a good coach is a team that can handle said adversity and still look like they want to play for him.  The results may not be on the field yet and they may be inconsistent but at least they don't give up a whole game.

It's been filled with adversity because the team hasnt lived up to expectations and Chuck decided to bet on himself instead of signing a contract. And let's be real, the colts are a .500 team.....and lucky to be a .500 team.

[Surge89]

It's been filled with adversity because the team hasnt lived up to expectations and Chuck decided to bet on himself instead of signing a contract. And let's be real, the colts are a .500 team.....and lucky to be a .500 team.

The team didn't live up to expectations because of an inept offense. Pagano is a defensive background coach and guess what unit is performing consistently and at am above average pace?

No we won't agree this is not a .500 (talented) team. Good Oline and (before Anderson's injury) a great Dline with depth. The DB Corp while injured are way above average even with Vontae and Toler having down years. The receiver and TE groups all of a sudden look formidable. And the RBS while old can do quite a bit of damage. So no we aren't even remotely close to agreeing that this is a .500 team. This is a team that has been held back by its OC and QB. But hey if you wanna blame that on Pagano I can't stop you.

[BOTT]

The team didn't live up to expectations because of an inept offense. Pagano is a defensive background coach and guess what unit is performing consistently and at am above average pace?

No we won't agree this is not a .500 (talented) team. Good Oline and (before Anderson's injury) a great Dline with depth. The DB Corp while injured are way above average even with Vontae and Toler having down years. The receiver and TE groups all of a sudden look formidable. And the RBS while old can do quite a bit of damage. So no we aren't even remotely close to agreeing that this is a .500 team. This is a team that has been held back by its OC and QB. But hey if you wanna blame that on Pagano I can't stop you.

It's not a .500 team, yet they are 5-5. They have more talent than that, but being .500 at this point isn't a great accomplishment.

Who hired Pep? If you wanna blame Grigson, then Chuck is a fool for allowing that to happen.

[King Colt]

Truth: Coaching college kids is light years from coaching wealthy professionals. Not to say it is impossible by any stretch just unlikely. Pagano's record is OK by me. Three years of no running backs and no OL and weak defense and still wins the division even though it is weak, the Colts progressed in the playoffs to be next in line for a SB appearance. I would like to know how the players view him.

[LockeDown]

I'm of the "keep-Pagano" camp.  Allow him as much power as Dungy had, whatever that was.   I say that because we won a Super Bowl with him, so something worked.  We have virtually the same scenario as then.  #1 QB.  A coach who the players love.  A controlling GM.  They made it work for a decade so why can't we?

[Colts_Fan12]

It's been filled with adversity because the team hasnt lived up to expectations and Chuck decided to bet on himself instead of signing a contract. And let's be real, the colts are a .500 team.....and lucky to be a .500 team.

good post

[NewColtsFan]

Nick Saban is trash, and there is no way in hell he's coming back to the NFL.

 

 

And before any of you cynical people jump on my throat, go look up his tenture in Miami. Go read that story where a player was foaming at the mouth and he just stepped over him and offered no assistance whatsoever.

 

 

I live in Alabama, and most will tell you that Saban is a jerk. 

 

 

He is not coming back to the NFL, just get over this. And even if he did, he would flat out suck. He was a failed coach in the NFL with Miami where he couldn't even convince his players that he had their back. The only reason he has championships is he goes to a college that spends over 50 million dollars a year on foobawl. 

 

If anything, Saban will go to Texas and not back in the NFL. He loves money more than anything. He's the highest paid sports coach in the country, and there's no way he's going to get more than 13 million a year (his salary at AL) in the NFL. 

 

 

I do not see Irsay hiring him whatsoever anyway. Colts would be better off mining for an actual coach that has NFL experience, and not a failed one that has a horrible reputation with his first tenure in the NFL. 

 

$13 Million dollar salary?

 

Where do you get this?

 

He makes barely over half that.     $7 Million.

 

And USA Today has it right from Alabama under the Freedom of Information act.

 

Here's the Link:

 

http://sports.usatoday.com/ncaa/salaries/

 

 

Nick Saban is "trash"?!?      My God, it is astounding some of the things you write.......         

[Dark Superman]

I'm torn if we should keep Manuskey or let him walk. I guess it will depend on whether Pagano is fired or not. My guess is that he's gone.

[ÅÐØNϧ 1]

Apparently Bob Kravitz has a feeling that Irsay is going to hire Nick Saban as our next head coach. He also suggests that if Irsay were to hire Saban that he would have to give him control. This would result in Grigson's exit or at least a lesser role than he has now. I am torn on this one. He is a great college coach and his stint with the Dolphins was less than stellar. However, I also feel that the Dolphins personnel is not at the same level as ours. Only time will tell I suppose.

 

 

http://www.stampedeblue.com/2015/11/11/9716376/nick-saban-to-the-colts-speculation-continues-to-grow

 

Hopefully after the  Pep Hamilton departure we stay with coachs with proven NFL records  like Chud

 

Stupid idea 2 years with the Dolphins he was lackluster sent him with his tail between his legs back to college where he belongs just like Chip Kelly people love what they'v done in college with school kids the NFL is a different beast & Saban & coachs like him are best where they are in school .